Old content has become so easy that it is no longer fun

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Tanks can solo quite bit a content that healers and dps still have to group for. The 2 are not even on the same level. Tanks contributing?? More like tanks are carrying. To tanks dps and healers are like a hand saw in a room full power tools right now.

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Yes, tanks are carrying. Why did you say earlier in this thread that tanks carrying is a bad example of content being too easy?

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Yes, tanks are carrying. Why did you say earlier in this thread that tanks carrying is a bad example of content being too easy?

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Never said tanks carrying was a bad example as you never said carrying until this post. Tanks solo bosses while sync is a role issue and not a sync one. As I said already dps and healers cant solo to the same level tanks can.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Never said tanks carrying was a bad example as you never said carrying until this post.

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Really now?

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Yeah its pretty bad. I made a post about it a while ago. I watched a DRK solo the final boss of a 70+ dungeon, and ilvl sync was on too. It shouldn't be that easy.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Very bad example as Tanks have very strong self heals right now. A warrior solo'd p1n..so I would not even bring tanks into this.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Really now?

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Pointed where you said carry please?

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Pointed where you said carry please?

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I watched a DRK solo the final boss of a 70+ dungeon, and ilvl sync was on too.

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That's not a good example of a tank carrying? Lol.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Imagine a sprout's disappointment with all of Heavensward leading to Thordan.

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to be fair, he was easy, even at release w/o higher iLv gear. someone told me he could be soloed by a fresh Lv60 PLD, and so I leveled up a PLD just to try and it, and they were right, i was able to solo him. (This was before u finish the story, and get "endgame" armor. Just using the gear i had prior. Also poetics werent usable for 60 armor, so it didnt matter if the vendors sold gear, since i couldnt have the currency yet)

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

That's not a good example of a tank carrying? Lol.

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Honestly, I remember soloing bosses as DRK in HW with just soul eater as my only healing option, while WAR and PLD were beasts with self healing at the time.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Yes, I'd agree with OP that it's a problem. That's why this thread was created in the first place. If things are so easy that they're not fun, I'd say that's a problem. An enrage timer would be a good improvement.

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So you don't like it because it's technically possible because there is no enrage or that there should be enrages to prevent jobs going out of bounds?

Should we make dungeon mobs stun immune because WHM with Holy exists? This allows 3 DPS + WHM runs without a tank. Same WAR + 3 DPS is also done. So then, should we remove holy stun, war self heal (or reduce to meaningless values) and make each job identical just from the fear of going out of bounds in a casual content?

And if you want harder content it should be something new and not as a replacement of existing content. There is actually a lot of people that struggles with what is already there.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Honestly, I remember soloing bosses as DRK in HW with just soul eater as my only healing option, while WAR and PLD were beasts with self healing at the time.

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Yes. Being able to solo bosses means a DRK can carry a group very well. For some reason the person above that I'm responding to doesn't think so.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

So you don't like it because it's technically possible because there is no enrage or that there should be enrages to prevent jobs going out of bounds?

Should we make dungeon mobs stun immune because WHM with Holy exists? This allows 3 DPS + WHM runs without a tank. Same WAR + 3 DPS is also done. So then, should we remove holy stun, war self heal (or reduce to meaningless values) and make each job identical just from the fear of going out of bounds in a casual content?

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Jesus, those are some awful ideas for balance. Glad you're not a dev. An enrage timer would be a good improvement as I already mentioned.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

That's not a good example of a tank carrying? Lol.

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My opinion of carrying is your alive as much as possible helping. Not laying the ground like a piece of garbage. But thats my opinion of it.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Jesus, those are some awful ideas for balance. Glad you're not a dev. An enrage timer would be a good improvement as I already mentioned.

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What ideas? This is already happening. People are making custom 3+1 groups that are faster that 1+1+2 for level 90 dungeons. And even for standard roulette variant WHM is more popular for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Should we make dungeon mobs stun immune because WHM with Holy exists? --- So then, should we remove holy stun, war self heal (or reduce to meaningless values) and make each job identical just from the fear of going out of bounds in a casual content?

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These are all terrible ideas, man.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

These are all terrible ideas, man.

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Then what do you want? There always will be a meta, there always will be an option to make content easier. With unique jobs there always will be one that can do what others can't. And if you start buffing the difficulty or nerfing jobs then it will be less and less fun to do and each job will become a copycat of each other.

And then it would be really "fun" to see people frustrated with roulettes when they get weaker healer after all those tank nerfs you want. Good healers would the sell their services $_$

The game isn't only about YOU and only the content YOU want to do.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Then what do you want?

The game isn't only about YOU and only the content YOU want to do.

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I already said an enrage timer would be a good improvement. That as a fix, is ok in my opinion.

You're right, it's not about what I personally want. You do realize that I'm not the author of this thread, right? Someone else wrote this and it has 90 upvotes right now, so it's not just me that feels this way.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I already said an enrage timer would be a good improvement. That as a fix, is ok in my opinion.

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So you don't want people to have fun and achieve mastery over the game even if impractical. BOOO HOOO they soloed a raid boss over an hour.

Enrage timers are bad design. You don't make your mobs go super saiyan because one class or two does something unexpected. You fix those classes so they're not exploiting your bosses.

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

Enrage timers are bad design. You don't make your mobs go super saiyan because one class or two does something unexpected. You fix those classes so they're not exploiting your bosses.

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If they deem those solo kills undesired then they will change the design. Either by enrage or by for example changing raid wide damage to take people count so that so a solo player takes damage of 8 people... but I'm surprised that people are so upset about those solo kills.

do it with level sync, or it's a 60 go in with 50 gear.

Old content is only there because there are still people doing it. or you need a random drop for some random item you want to upgrade / glam or whatnot.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

So you don't want people to have fun and achieve mastery over the game even if impractical. BOOO HOOO they soloed a raid boss over an hour.

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Ok, but if this ability to solo a boss carries over into duty finder, where people might actually want to do and learn the fight properly and they end up getting carried because the tank is really good, wouldn't that make it not fun for the people who wanted to actually learn the boss mechanics?

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Originally Posted by sharknado

If they deem those solo kills undesired then they will change the design. Either by enrage or by for example changing raid wide damage to take people count so that so a solo player takes damage of 8 people... but I'm surprised that people are so upset about those solo kills.

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From the FFXI perspective, SE basically grossly overreacted to RDMs soloing things, so we got stuff like enrage timers instead of addressing the tools that enabled the solos to begin with. People in the community also took the position that because RDM could do such things, they weren't worthy of improvements in areas they were lacking. It's not exactly a history I want to see repeated here with any job here even if XIV encounters have more moving parts in comparison.

How to stoo tanks from soloing: Nerf their self healing so they cant keep them long enough to kill bosses. I dont see dpsnand healers soling p1n, so tanks should be either. Same goes for sync'd content.

Sync: Make the sync system sync to min ilvl.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

How to stoo tanks from soloing: Nerf their self healing so they cant keep them long enough to kill bosses. I dont see dpsnand healers soling p1n, so tanks should be either. Same goes for sync'd content.

Sync: Make the sync system sync to min ilvl.

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Sorry about this mess..on mobile currently

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Ok, but if this ability to solo a boss carries over into duty finder, where people might actually want to do and learn the fight properly and they end up getting carried because the tank is really good, wouldn't that make it not fun for the people who wanted to actually learn the boss mechanics?

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Game doesn't want this to be the standard. If you want to improve you have to do it on your own, especially when it comes to ATC and logs. They don't want logs and player scoring to be the norm.

Hard tank will not shorten the fight, low DPS will so if you want to see full run of boss mechanics then the DPS must be narrowed down to a small variance window which isn't possible. Top parses job comparison may show say 10-20% DPS difference between best job and worst job, but if you take random players they can do less DPS than a healer:
- you can't shame them
- you can't kick them
- you can't start throwing logs and parses on them

You can only suggest or give advice, but this gave forbids anything above that. It has it advantages and disadvantages.

Few examples from my recent alt jobs leveling: wanderer's palace (ilvl sync): first run with non sprouts was a speed run, on last boss ads barely spawn... but on 2-3 I had full sprout group, some didn't know the place and were going blind. The DPS and HPS was way way lower. I had to use Hallowed Ground even on 1/2 or 1/3 pulls as like healer was struggling or the pull take long to kill I run out of buttons as well. Even had one wipe on the last boss as to many ads died and he enraged to much, but after some explaining it was done, barely.

You can't tell those people to "learn to play" really. Duty done, carry on and have fun - that's the game rules. WoW would just have even more brainded version as base and then M+ for those wanting challenge, where players would have a skill score - RIO score detailing their runs and parses. To low score - no invite. Both approaches have positives and negatives and both aren't perfect.

And when playing as healer I had tanks that went on regen, but also those that needed insane amount of healing in a normal leveling dungeon - wherever due to gear or cooldown usage (mostly gear). And there are cases of no job stone or lack of job quests and no usage of newer job skills. If people don't do that then only in extreme griefing examples they can be held accountable.

And leveling WAR I had cases that in like EW dungeon I was getting cure I spam and only hard WAR self-heal allowed to survive already split pull as I saw healer not being really "aggressive". They could remove Freecure from WHM and rename Cure III to Group Cure... Or Snowcloak of all places. Some healers can't handle AoE damage of last 2-ish-pack of dragons - so if I see that I don't pull them together. It works, duty complete - so the healer is fine, but from performance is not... and it's kind of good FF14 isn't yet another parser-MMO.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Game doesn't want this to be the standard. If you want to improve you have to do it on your own, especially when it comes to ATC and logs. They don't want logs and player scoring to be the norm.

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The game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of the boss mechanics to be the standard? That's completely new to me.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

The game doesn't want new players learning the bare minimum of the boss mechanics to be the standard? That's completely new to me.

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Yes. Guildheist is outdated, so when sprouts see modern stack up marker they run away with it. Some of ARR instances aged badly, especially alliance raids and are full of non-standard now markers and some mechanics designs (coils somewhere). The game also allows for in-combat rez or gives you debuffs when hit by a mechanics and not always one-shotting you so the room for error is wide by design. And even in newer content you are allowed to play "poorly". Decision to improve is only on the player side, the game won't force nor recommend it... not until you try more demanding content. And if you mention someones parse, or shame their performance you get banned due to policy they have. The game / company is pro-actively keeping the game "casual".

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Originally Posted by sharknado

The game also allows for in-combat rez or gives you debuffs when hit by a mechanics and not always one-shotting you so the room for error is wide by design. And even in newer content you are allowed to play "poorly". Decision to improve is only on the player side, the game won't force nor recommend it... not until you try more demanding content. The game / company is pro-actively keeping the game "casual".

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Not sure if it's your intention or not, but you're helping prove the original point of the thread: that this game's old content is too easy.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Not sure if it's your intention or not, but you're helping prove the original point of the thread: that this game's old content is too easy.

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While I am not against old content being brought back to original difficulty through sync. I feel that like the wow classic community people will be sorely disappointed.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Not sure if it's your intention or not, but you're helping prove the original point of the thread: that this game's old content is too easy.

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And "yet" people struggle with it. So is it easy or not? Cleaning or just making things consistent is not really a difficulty increase.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I feel that like the wow classic community people will be sorely disappointed.

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WoW classic? Bring cleave group and mass pull an instance? If you look hard you may find someone that like 2h dungeon and pulling one by one.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

How to stoo tanks from soloing: Nerf their self healing so they cant keep them long enough to kill bosses. I dont see dpsnand healers soling p1n, so tanks should be either. Same goes for sync'd content.

Sync: Make the sync system sync to min ilvl.

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I mean if you waste an hour of your time soloing p1n instead of just doing it normally in like 5 minutes, have you really won something?

I understand that the devs want to keep their focus on newer content, and that doing overhauls basically mean they have to allot a chunk of time and resources they might not have for a while. I get that fixing older content is low priority, sure.

But in an interview (with woops), YoshiP explicitly stated that the stat squish would make older content less "squishy", and they were looking to adjust the rewards appropriately so people would feel the increased time spent was worth it. And yet it barely moved the needle. Sure, in the older alliance raids, the raidwides do do more damage. I do see it go on slightly longer. In Void Ark, Echidna doesn't die quite as fast as it used to.

How much longer? Some seconds. You might see one more mechanic. You might have to pump out slightly more heals, maybe. Glasya still does nothing and dies. You can get hit by everything Echidna throws at you and still live while the healers look out their windows.

And honestly it feels like they purposefully shied away from letting the stat squish do its work. Like they went, oh no, if we go too far people won't like it! So they stopped way short of the goal.

On my very last Syrcus before Endwalker, I thought to myself, oh man, this might be the last time it's such a faceroll, I can't wait to not fall asleep when I inevitably get this a bunch of times in a row in 6.0. Maybe it'll be super chaotic because nobody will know the old mechanics, I should make sure to go as a healer. Nope.

At least Diabolos Hollow still punches the everloving crap out of the main tank. Love you, Diabolos. You're the reason I could never hate my server.

(Finally: People will vote abandon or leave if the content's difficulty is reverted? Uh, if all the content isn't baby-level anymore, what are they gonna do, leave everything? Fine by me I guess.)

Reminder again that Syrcus Tower is part of MSQ requirements.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Reminder again that Syrcus Tower is part of MSQ requirements.

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Syrcus Tower is so ridiculously easy and boring and uneventful that it's not even funny. By the time you get to the part of MSQ where you're required to complete it, you've done things that are much "harder".

Unless you mean to imply that might be a reason why the devs wouldn't want to touch it, even if it's a silly one. Which, yeah, possibly.

Well, I'm glad you find it ridiculously easy and all that, but I don't, currently. Of all the things I've done on the way to HW, Crystal Tower raids are the places I've actually died several times.

Since it's an MSQ required raid, people in it will be often new, and/or doing it just to get through the MSQ. Making it harder may cause issues both for the group who just want to go on with their MSQ and now feel stuck in the most boring expansion of the game, and for the veterans like yourself who don't understand why some of us are dying in said ridiculously easy raid and screwing it up.

Coils, on the other hand, are not required, and I have heard they are a bit more difficult and nobody minds.

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

Coils, on the other hand, are not required, and I have heard they are a bit more difficult and nobody minds.

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Mostly because absolutely nobody does Coils ever.

There were discussions in my NN of people clearing various turns, so that's definitely not true. I almost ended up in a group for one, even. Many recommend doing them for lore reasons. It is my intent to eventually give them a try.

But I'm not sure what your desires are then. You want content to be harder, but when such harder content exists, you don't do it, rather, you want content everyone's forced to do to be harder to accomplish... what?

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Originally Posted by MidnightEquinox

You want content to be harder, but when such harder content exists, you don't do it

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The difference is you cant just queue up into bit harder content easily, for everything non-savage and non-extreme thats easily possible, for something more challenging there is no option other than waiting in partyfinder or finding people else where. Even Unreal Trials are disabled still.
People are doing ultimate grps in partyfinder by now, so hard content is not that impossible to do with randoms. Just nobody uses raid finder because its exposure is very bad and it has too many options that prevents people from popping the duty because it doesnt match up. So its usuability is really niche.

I was already told to not queue for Moogle King Extreme, for instance, because everyone uses PF instead. You generally need handpicked groups for harder content, which is why I don't think raising difficulty is a good idea for old MSQ content.

> Just nobody uses raid finder because its exposure is very bad

That seems an easier thing to fix than rebalancing old raids.

You seem to be in agreement with me, why did you quote my post?

I recommend people do Coils of Bahamut for story reasons but at the same time during prime time hours for DPS your queues can be upwards of 40 minutes at times which is not great heh.

I think that some content definitely could use a facelift or boost in boss stats for the sole purpose for at the very least allowing people to experiencing all the mechanics said boss even offers. I do however acknowledge that many things have changed since said encounters conceptions. From Accuracy (Non Damage Stats but something required) being replaced by Direct hit (Pure Damage Stat) to Spell Speed and Skills speed affecting DoT damage to the array of potency increases and better refined rotations and ability implementations that have come since. And theres also TP which is completely gone.

Some of it will be hard to balance well, since it was never developed with all these nuances in mind, but I do think at the very least HP should be increased for most dungeon bosses (including some MSQ ones), CT raid bosses, and I still support the big transition boss (trials) like Steps of Faith should be more than just a "glorified striking dummy"

Steps of Faith will forever be the worst rebalance this game ever suffered imo, but I also remember the hilarious amount of people complaining it was "too hard".