The Alliance roulette is unbearable

Just make rewards scale lower if your Item level is significantly below what it should be for your job level. A level 70 character shouldn't have ilvl130 and shouldn't get full xp for queueing like that.

Thanks for your responses. I knew something existed but wasn’t aware of the details behind it as I never use it

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Just make rewards scale lower if your Item level is significantly below what it should be for your job level. A level 70 character shouldn't have ilvl130 and shouldn't get full xp for queueing like that.

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That’d be a good way to get people to stop running a roulette. Similarly to how not many people ran the level 80 roulette in ShB. Drop the rewards significantly causes the time and energy spent to not be worth the reward. People will start to steer clear of it.
Many threads on many topics have people responding with taking things away from players, punishing them or nerfing them. Always bringing everything down instead of raising others up. Instead of suggesting nerfed exp for lower leveled content, why not increase the reward for the higher leveled, more time consuming content. Incentivize people. Stop trying to harm others for not conforming to your desires

Edited to correct for auto correct errors

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

That’d be a good way to get people to stop running a roulette. Similarly to how not many people ran the level 80 roulette in ShB. Drop the rewards significantly causes the time and energy spent to not be worth the reward. People will start to steer clear of it.
Many threads on many topics have people responding with taking things away from players, punishing them or nerfing them. Always bringing everything down instead of raising others up. Instead of suggesting nerfed exp for lower leveled content, why not increase the reward for the higher leveled, more time consuming content. Incentivize people. Stop trying to harm others for not conforming to your desires

Edited to correct for auto correct errors

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This wouldn't affect anyone except the people who queue up using gear significantly below their current level. ilvl130 is normal for a level 50 character, it's not normal for a 60+ character.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

This wouldn't affect anyone except the people who queue up using gear significantly below their current level. ilvl130 is normal for a level 50 character, it's not normal for a 60+ character.

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Your response is still to punish rather than to incentivize. That is a fact about you also, less people queueing over all effects everyone. Not just the people under gearing. Lessen the pool, and the duty will not pop as often. Especially in the off hours

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Imagine queuing for Alliance Raid and getting a Nier raid or Monastery on the daily? You might think you want those more but you'll realize that they're hard and there will certainly be wipes if people are new.

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We don't have to imagine it. Those of us who have this content unlocked experience this on rare occasions we get something other than Syrcus. People act like ShB relics were not a thing, where we were running ShB and HW raids people had never seen all of the time, with people who had never seen them, so that they could complete their Bozja chain.

Getting newbies happens all the time during the rare experiences where we actually get to do something other than Run #295 of Syrcus Tower. It rarely results in a wipe, and if players were actually, y'know - occasionally required to do them - the "speed gap" between these and CT would dramatically decrease. I would posit the main reason why "higher level raids take longer" is because 20% of people in the thing spend half the instance floor tanking or with a damage debuff. This isn't their fault, either. This happens because they never actually get to learn the content, because they never get any exposure to it because *PEOPLE KEEP FORCING THEM INTO SYRCUS* because they want to netflix and press 1-2-3 and get oodles of xp for it.

If everyone was doing this in order to ensure that every single LDR that they did was Sastasha or Toto-rak, it would literally be fixed the next patch. Instead they created a system for high level players so they can make SURE they don't repetitively get thrown into the same, dull, low-level content. I don't know why, legitimately, people are in such a rush to get to high level if they don't want to do any content that actually gives them access to the new abilities they get from being higher level. The level 81 dungeon is more mechanically difficult than most raids, yet for some reason people are terrified of having to "press a button to use a shield" or "I might have to make an opening in a circle face a guy." Most old "insta-wipe" mechanics have even been nerfed at this point, or gear levels have reached the point where lots of people can take a hit, even if barely, that would have wiped them out before.

I just did WOD yesterday. We almost wiped more times than the last time I got Nier. I've seen Behemoth wipes in the last 7 days. How many times in the past month have you wiped to people starting Atomos early because they still have not realized it doesn't work like a normal boss and you wait BEFORE the line for people to get there, NOT past it? And a wipe to the final boss of LOTA? It's almost 50/50 because half the group tries to push second flare when the DPS clearly isn't there.

There are plenty of solutions, it's not OK, and it should have been patched out long ago. The fact it works and isn't "against the rules" doesn't make gaming the system "ok" from a moral perspective.

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Originally Posted by Atma

There are plenty of solutions, it's not OK, and it should have been patched out long ago. The fact it works and isn't "against the rules" doesn't make gaming the system "ok" from a moral perspective.

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I would be willing to bet the people doing it couldn't care less whether some random person on the forum thinks it is morally ok or not.

How about adding an ilvl bonus? Rather than scaling down.
A serepate bonus exp value like the new player bonus, which scales with your ilvl when queuing.

Something like 1000 x (currrent ilvl) so an ilvl 90 player queuing into alliance roulette would get a 90,000 exp bonus, while an ilvl 500 player would get 500,000 bonus exp.
Maybe adding an exponent rather than a straight multiplication to create a larger divide.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

How about adding an ilvl bonus? Rather than scaling down.
A serepate bonus exp value like the new player bonus, which scales with your ilvl when queuing.

Something like 1000 x (currrent ilvl) so an ilvl 90 player queuing into alliance roulette would get a 90,000 exp bonus, while an ilvl 500 player would get 500,000 bonus exp.
Maybe adding an exponent rather than a straight multiplication to create a larger divide.

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Plus a tomestone bonus, you get 10 additional tomestones of Astronomy if your ilvl is 550 or higher, scaling up to 560, 570 ext with each patch.

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How about adding an ilvl bonus? Rather than scaling down.
A serepate bonus exp value like the new player bonus, which scales with your ilvl when queuing.

Something like 1000 x (currrent ilvl) so an ilvl 90 player queuing into alliance roulette would get a 90,000 exp bonus, while an ilvl 500 player would get 500,000 bonus exp.
Maybe adding an exponent rather than a straight multiplication to create a larger divide.

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Creating a "Castrum Meridianum V2.0" situation is probably undesirable. Penalizing someone for the choices (or abilities) of others by reducing their experience potential is probably not for the best.

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I would be willing to bet the people doing it couldn't care less whether some random person on the forum thinks it is morally ok or not.

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Oh, I know they don't care. I've just got this Lost Banish slotted, so I'm dropping it on any illusions that some people still suffer from.

The roulettes are divided by type way more than level of the instance. Newer raids or dungeons have mechanics, are more complex while old stuff is way easier and quicker. Also if you queue for given roulette type rarely, say alliance raid - you can get a newer instance that you did like once and by now forgotten the mechanics - not so fun - so a somewhat player defined subset could be better (or option to see the instance name beforehand somehow).

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Originally Posted by Atma

How many times in the past month have you wiped to people starting Atomos early because they still have not realized it doesn't work like a normal boss and you wait BEFORE the line for people to get there, NOT past it?

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I'm not 100% certain but I think it's still fine to step just inside the line, but the problems start when people think they can enter and get in position on the coloured circles.

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Originally Posted by Atma

Creating a "Castrum Meridianum V2.0" situation is probably undesirable. Penalizing someone for the choices (or abilities) of others by reducing their experience potential is probably not for the best.



Oh, I know they don't care. I've just got this Lost Banish slotted, so I'm dropping it on any illusions that some people still suffer from.

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That's not what's being proposed at all, what's being proposed is that if you queue on a high level character you should queue with the highest gear available to you on that character to allow for the most possible matches in duties. It wouldn't matter what duty you get, only that you queued on a high level character with high level gear. If you queue lvl 80 ilvl530 the bonus proposed would be the same whether you get crystal tower or nier raids

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not 100% certain but I think it's still fine to step just inside the line, but the problems start when people think they can enter and get in position on the coloured circles.

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I've seen people get zinged by them being barely past the line after they sit in the arena for a certain period of time when no one else had even entered. It was myself, and 1 other person, waiting for everyone who had gotten clipped by heavy. They were just past the line, I had almost finished typing "you probably shouldn't be inside..." and zwoop, aggro line on them.

That aggro is busted, random, and broken. I've been clipped myself being barely inside the line with others barely inside the line, I wasn't even the closest person.

i just don't see why i'd want to get an ivalice raid if it's giving me the exact same xp as a syrcus tower run.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I would be willing to bet the people doing it couldn't care less whether some random person on the forum thinks it is morally ok or not.

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Can confirm, do not care. The newbie waiting in line trying to get their roulette to pop will get it to pop eventually. Like 15-20 minutes when I tried it out today for an Ivalis one just to see.

Some random player’s boredom/dislike at getting the same dungeon does not supersede my own frustration/dislike at the higher level raids.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Just make rewards scale lower if your Item level is significantly below what it should be for your job level. A level 70 character shouldn't have ilvl130 and shouldn't get full xp for queueing like that.

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On the contrary the way the game is currently, you can easily over level and end up in iLvl 130 gear at level 60 and not have access to higher level gear nor to the level 60 raids because you are still not there in the story and both the gear and missions are locked behind the completion of HW. I have lvl 90 jobs on a character and am still stuck in lvl 70 msq content. I don’t see why ppl should be penalized if they can’t even queue for the level 60 raids. Raids other than CT are also completely optional.

Splitting the raids in 2 roulettes, CT and optional raids with a variation of rewards based on time and difficulty seems much better: you incentivize people to unlock and do the optional ARs instead of needlessly penalizing people for something that they may not even have access to. It’s not only much simpler to implement, ppl would also still do CT as it would have its own reward, thus allowing newer players to complete their MSQ without waiting endlessly.

And maybe I got lucky, I got Tower at Paradigm and 4 Ivalice raids in a row to pop on an alt in the past 5 days. However, a few people left each time.

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Originally Posted by ElenaRedoran

i just don't see why i'd want to get an ivalice raid if it's giving me the exact same xp as a syrcus tower run.

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If you have to run those raids for relics or glamour or Wondrous Tails, then it's nice to have them come up in the roulette instead of having to queue specifically for them.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

On the contrary the way the game is currently, you can easily over level and end up in iLvl 130 gear at level 60 and not have access to higher level gear nor to the level 60 raids because you are still not there in the story and both the gear and missions are locked behind the completion of HW. I don’t see why ppl should be penalized if they can’t even queue for the level 60 raids.

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Someone that overleveled compared to the story doesn't need the full experience reward since they will get plenty more xp from MSQ. So it's not a penalty for them in practice.

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Originally Posted by ElenaRedoran

i just don't see why i'd want to get an ivalice raid if it's giving me the exact same xp as a syrcus tower run.

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They're more fun than going autopilot on Syrcus Tower for the 10,000th time or trying to remember your level 50 rotation. This may come as a shock but some people also play this game to have fun, not grind out the most efficient xp like a robot over and over.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Can confirm, do not care. The newbie waiting in line trying to get their roulette to pop will get it to pop eventually. Like 15-20 minutes when I tried it out today for an Ivalis one just to see.

Some random player’s boredom/dislike at getting the same dungeon does not supersede my own frustration/dislike at the higher level raids.

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Sure doesn't, but it also doesn't remove our ability, nor right, to advocate for change to eliminate clearly exploitative behavior.

Only one thing is needed, thatis for mentor dorks to stop saying should eat food to beat roulettes, you don't need it, and for making stuff better as it is, if you know what is going on, explain some core mechanics in the alliance chat... not a 10 minute explanation... just say don't step in this and that... it can be done with 5-6 words... if they die first time doing it.... then they know what to do next time as you mentioned it.

Be polite, ignore trolls.

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Originally Posted by Atma

Sure doesn't, but it also doesn't remove our ability, nor right, to advocate for change to eliminate clearly exploitative behavior.

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You realize if someone isn't using ilvl cheese or whatever way to force CT raid their spot would be open for you or someone else who don't like CT?
All it takes is one 59 or below and all people matched with them are gonna get CT.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

You realize if someone isn't using ilvl cheese or whatever way to force CT raid

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Then maybe a CT raid wouldn't form at all in that moment and we could all see a different raid for once.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Someone that overleveled compared to the story doesn't need the full experience reward since they will get plenty more xp from MSQ. So it's not a penalty for them in practice.

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Then a lot of people would not even queue. I wouldn’t queue any more for either CT or MSQ. It would only make queues longer in the end as it’s pretty much impossible to not over level these days. That XP is also useful to pick other classes when they become available along the way without slowing down msq progress.

Penalizing also makes no sense from another perspective: the other raids are optional. If someone has not unlocked them, even if they are lvl 90 with appropriate level gear will not make raids other than CT pop. Providing incentives to unlock and do the other raids is a much better way to address this. You also want CT to pop often as it is mandatory to progress MSQ. 2 separate roulettes may address this: many will still want the CT reward as they do for MSQ roulette.

CT is mandatory and all players who can queue for alliance roulette will have at least LoTA/ST unlocked. Of course you get them a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Then a lot of people would not even queue. I wouldn’t queue any more for either CT or MSQ. It would only make queues longer in the end as it’s pretty much impossible to not over level these days.

Penalizing also makes no sense from another perspective: the other raids are optional. If someone has not unlocked them, even if they are lvl 90 with appropriate level gear will not make raids other than CT pop. Providing incentives to unlock and do the other raids is a much better way to address this.

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"A lot of people" are not so uninformed that they are doing a ton of roulettes to purposefully overlevel before completing the Main Scenario Quest. Roulettes are for the 18 alt jobs.

As for your other point, that's not the issue. The issue is people unlock the other raids then cheat to cherry pick what they get from the roulette. That goes against the principle and purpose of all roulettes, which is to be rewarded for doing a random duty among the ones that are available to you. Higher raids have up to hour long queues because of that. If the cheaters stop queuing, great. At least they won't drag other potential teammates away from the higher raids.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

As for your other point, that's not the issue. The issue is people unlock the other raids then cheat to cherry pick what they get from the roulette. That goes against the principle and purpose of all roulettes, which is to be rewarded for doing a random duty among the ones that are available to you. Higher raids have up to hour long queues because of that. If the cheaters stop queuing, great. At least they won't drag other potential teammates away from the higher raids.

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1. People can play and level up as they wish.
2. My other point is totally relevant to the issue. By providing 2 roulettes, there would be no point for people to equip lower gear and it encourages more players to unlock the other raids, which means more people queuing for them. Penalizing accomplishes nothing.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

1. People can play and level up as they wish.
2. My other point is totally relevant to the issue. By providing 2 roulettes, there is no point for people to equip lower gear and it encourages more players to unlock the other raids, which means more people queuing for them. Penalizing accomplishes nothing.

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1 - I mean, kind of? Within limits? Every other roulette has like minimum baseline restrictions that get added to it as players progress in level. 5/6/7/8 for example 'technically' only requires two, but the reality is it's functionally impossible to progress without adding more to it. LDR also pushes this, yet we don't see this same exploitative behavior (because people know more abilities = more AOE = faster.)

And for clarification for people who may be confused by this - yes, I call it an exploit because it is abusing a game mechanic to intentionally limit available options in an attempt to improve your personal levelling 'efficiency' at the expense of the enjoyment of people who want to legitimately participate in the content as intended. That is, by rote definition, an exploit.

2 - I'd be fine with splitting them, but the new one would still need some mechanic to force unlocks and ilvl otherwise it's just going to become freaking Void Ark roulette, just like people do LOTA and Syrcus and intentionally Ilevel limit out WOD. The overarching issue of item level exploitation needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

You realize if someone isn't using ilvl cheese or whatever way to force CT raid their spot would be open for you or someone else who don't like CT?
All it takes is one 59 or below and all people matched with them are gonna get CT.

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If this were truly as people say, just an issue of "these are the only raids people have unlocked", or "people are below 60" we could at least at a minimum expect to see a somewhat more even distribution of raids within the CT series. We don't. WOD comes up very infrequently compared to LOTA and ST. Item level exploiters are even massively skewing the distribution within the meager pool of things available only to people who have completed the main story.

It's not just levels of players, it's not just "these are the only things people have unlocked." The distribution of raids delivered by alliance raid roulette is clearly skewed due to people exploiting item level.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Your response is still to punish

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good. getting CT raids 9/10 times isn't fun

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

good. getting CT raids 9/10 times isn't fun

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Guess I might the 1/10 then because if given the choice, I would take CT over any of the other raids 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Guess I might the 1/10 then because if given the choice, I would take CT over any of the other raids 100% of the time.

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You shouldn't have a choice. It's a roulette.

This sentiment pretty much illustrates the problem. People think they should be entitled to a choice. The purpose of a roulette is to remove the choice and let the game fill what needs to be filled, not what players want to be filled.

We might as well just make it so you can pick your dungeon for LDR too, then.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Guess I might the 1/10 then because if given the choice, I would take CT over any of the other raids 100% of the time.

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and why is that? do you enjoy the level 50 gameplay so much?

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

good. getting CT raids 9/10 times isn't fun

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For me it’s nier 10/10 which isn’t fun either. People here over estimate the impact queue manipulators have

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

good. getting CT raids 9/10 times isn't fun

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Neither is doing Copied Factory with complete monkeys who sniff glue between auto-attacks (if you are lucky you might even see an ability) and actively populate Aliinace Raid roulette.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

and why is that? do you enjoy the level 50 gameplay so much?

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Because I get the same rewards irregardless of my time, so I'd take the quicker option. Let's say at your job, you could work 1 hour a day, or 8 hours a day, but you get the same amount of pay either way. Would you seriously say you'd work 8 hours? I would venture to say no, you would work that 1 hour and go do what you want to do for the other 7. Same thing here. I can do CT in 15 minutes, and then move onto something else I want to do in the same amount of time you did a Neir raid, and we both got the exact same rewards.

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Originally Posted by Atma

You shouldn't have a choice. It's a roulette.

This sentiment pretty much illustrates the problem. People think they should be entitled to a choice. The purpose of a roulette is to remove the choice and let the game fill what needs to be filled, not what players want to be filled.

We might as well just make it so you can pick your dungeon for LDR too, then.

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Notice I said IF given the choice. Words have meaning.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

For me it’s nier 10/10 which isn’t fun either. People here over estimate the impact queue manipulators have

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If queue manipulators aren't the problem, explain why we see LOTA and Syrcus far, far, FAR more frequently than we see WOD.

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Originally Posted by Atma

If queue manipulators aren't the problem, explain why we see LOTA and Syrcus far, far, FAR more frequently than we see WOD.

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Or you explain how I only ever get the level 80 alliance raids

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Originally Posted by Atma

1 - I mean, kind of? Within limits? Every other roulette has like minimum baseline restrictions that get added to it as players progress in level. 5/6/7/8 for example 'technically' only requires two, but the reality is it's functionally impossible to progress without adding more to it. LDR also pushes this, yet we don't see this same exploitative behavior (because people know more abilities = more AOE = faster.)

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My answer was more in relation to the other poster comment about over leveling. I will do MSQ for on a tank or healer rather than dps as I don’t have to wait. Plus then you get grindy events once in a while. I am quite enjoying my slow msq run while taking the time to unlock everything in order when it becomes available on an alt as I rushed through the story on my main to catch up with friends.

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2 - I'd be fine with splitting them, but the new one would still need some mechanic to force unlocks and ilvl otherwise it's just going to become freaking Void Ark roulette, just like people do LOTA and Syrcus and intentionally Ilevel limit out WOD. The overarching issue of item level exploitation needs to be addressed.

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I’d be fine with the forced unlock but that requires more work to implement. I think that there have to be incentives for the completion of higher and more difficult content (as is the case to a very limited degree, with LDR). As said earlier, I got quite a few Ivalice raids doing roulette this past week (instant pop on a healer and a dps!) yet, each time we lost people before we had even started and during Orbonne, some kept popping the vote to abandon the duty up until about midway into the raid though there had been no wipe on a single boss save for a single alliance having a bit of trouble.

Here’s a solution. If you want a challenge because 50 content too easy, queue for something your level, like the actual dungeon tier you are on. If you are looking for specific 24 person content, queue for it directly. If you wish to whine about a non issue, post on the forums.