Are some jobs 'too feminine' in aesthetics?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

So there's nothing wrong with masculine outfits that were designed for a male in mind that are ported over to female characters without much change?

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Both things are wrong, i never said one and not the other. However, one side is much more prominent than the other. Using real life examples is kind of….weird considering it’s a fantasy game. They can literally use whatever they want for healers but they constantly lean back on the same robe type glams. That’s not to say robes can’t look masculine or at least…more masculine than most do. There’s all kinds of examples you can find in rpg games. SE just seems to think healers=females, tanks=males, like i pointed out before, this is kind of obvious when their art mascots for healers are all female and the mascots for tanks are all males. They have a really old mindset on these things that should be commented on and changed because it isn’t fair to both sides. Again though, my main point is it’s heavily skewed typically to one side, where getting masculine outfits vs the feminine ones are typically rarer. I have numerous examples earlier from raid sets to mogstation.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

My impression is that D&D definitely set the tone for clothing choices for video games.

Only True Clerics may wear chain mail and plate armor. They'll bash things with maces and hammers rather than kill things via spells.

True Clerics are Tanks that [sometimes] Heal, and show up in games like, hmmmm, Rift.

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Aion has this type of cleric. Shield, mace, chain mail and heals. But can melee in addition to their casted abilities.

these threads kinda suck 'cuz no one ever gravitates towards a definition of what a "masculine" aesthetic means, there's like a few of "plate armor, spikes and stuff" though that's not inherently masculine and it's just... easier to say "this is the aesthetic I like, edgy Metal Album Cover Fantasy. I don't really like flowery/fae-like aesthetics." A lot more specific and identifies something you actually want.

though if it's /really/ a case for someone to look at WHM and go "i wont play that because it brings my masculinity into question" then you're too insecure to have an opinion and should work that out

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Originally Posted by Alaray

these threads kinda suck 'cuz no one ever gravitates towards a definition of what a "masculine" aesthetic means, there's like a few of "plate armor, spikes and stuff" though that's not inherently masculine and it's just... easier to say "this is the aesthetic I like, edgy Metal Album Cover Fantasy. I don't really like flowery/fae-like aesthetics." A lot more specific and identifies something you actually want.

though if it's /really/ a case for someone to look at WHM and go "i wont play that because it brings my masculinity into question" then you're too insecure to have an opinion and should work that out

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I mean masculine aesthetics refer to clothing and armor that flatter the male frame. Hallmarks of this include broad chest and shoulders aswell as projecting a sense of strength and power. Heavy armor tends to this very well.

Spikes and stuff isn't necessarily a masculine aesthetic - I'd call it neutral. Often times "masculine" gear is actually quite neutral really, and typically can look good on both male and female. It starts looking bad, when something is obviously built with a male frame in mind on a female body; it looks too big, too bulky, etc.. The same can be said about female or "feminine" gear on a male body; a piece that was designed with the female form in mind, won't necessarily look good on a male body. Typically, more feminine aesthetics can't really be considered neutral in the same sense as male pieces, and I think most people can agree on what are modern day feminine aesthetics.

For example, many people like to equate a robe with a dress, but they are quite different.

Most men are basically flat, that's why clothing that isn't tailored specifically to highlight a woman's curves can be considered unisex, even if it's made "for men". I'd say 'masculine' gear would be stuff that's designed with males in mind, or that a female character wouldn't be able to wear without alterations, like say, an exposed torso or an open shirt, since the female variants would have to have a bra on top, for obvious reasons, or gladiator style armor that's molded to look like pecs and abs - the Uraeus Coat, Hien's outfit, or the melee dps Late Allagan(?) sets come to mind.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

many people like to equate a robe with a dress, but they are quite different.

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All dresses are robes, not all robes are dresses, therein the confusion, or rather, generalization of the topic.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Both things are wrong, i never said one and not the other. However, one side is much more prominent than the other. Using real life examples is kind of….weird considering it’s a fantasy game. They can literally use whatever they want for healers but they constantly lean back on the same robe type glams. That’s not to say robes can’t look masculine or at least…more masculine than most do. There’s all kinds of examples you can find in rpg games. SE just seems to think healers=females, tanks=males, like i pointed out before, this is kind of obvious when their art mascots for healers are all female and the mascots for tanks are all males. They have a really old mindset on these things that should be commented on and changed because it isn’t fair to both sides. Again though, my main point is it’s heavily skewed typically to one side, where getting masculine outfits vs the feminine ones are typically rarer. I have numerous examples earlier from raid sets to mogstation.

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You still haven't answered what counts as masculine vs feminine.

In Shadowbringers, only 4 of the 9 leveling up sets for healers are actual robe-type outfits. I'd probably say 8 of the 30 or so level 80 sets are robes (not counting duplicates), including one which is a heavily armored robe and an Ascian robe, neither of which I would say were made specifically for female frames and were probably designed on the male midlander body before being ported over. There are a few feminine looking ones and a few neutral looking ones in there too.

The rest of the body pieces range from 2 tribal outfits, an army coat similar to one all classes get, more than a few tunics, the outfit of a male character from FFXII, a lot of coats with long butt capes that plague all classes, a steampunk outfit, a 9S jacket, and an outfit of a female character from NieR.

There's more than just robes there, and there's more than just "feminine" clothing. What is it exactly that you are you looking for? You said earlier in this very thread that "90% of healer glams are feminine" and to me that does not appear to be the case.

And what is wrong with bringing up real world clothing? The game is fantasy, and almost all fantasy games are based on our real world medieval period. All of the level 1-49 gear that was ported over from 1.0 are based on real life outfits. I also mentioned the fantasy genre as a whole and that is also a giant influence on this game's clothing and the vast majority of mage gear in fantasy is robes. That gets translated in this game for higher level gear as "robes with fantasy junk attached", which I guess to you equals "feminine". But like I pointed out, there's more than just that.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Spikes and stuff isn't necessarily a masculine aesthetic - I'd call it neutral. Often times "masculine" gear is actually quite neutral really, and typically can look good on both male and female. It starts looking bad, when something is obviously built with a male frame in mind on a female body; it looks too big, too bulky, etc.. The same can be said about female or "feminine" gear on a male body; a piece that was designed with the female form in mind, won't necessarily look good on a male body. Typically, more feminine aesthetics can't really be considered neutral in the same sense as male pieces, and I think most people can agree on what are modern day feminine aesthetics.

For example, many people like to equate a robe with a dress, but they are quite different.

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In continuation, some examples:

One "masculine", one "feminine":
https://i.ibb.co/vPFGy9m/101bugexp.png

Left: too bulky; accentuates the male form. While it does have a skirt, a skirt itself isn't necessarily feminine. This is in theme with a Roman or Greek Style.

Right: Fairly self explanatory. Low cut top; accentuates the female form. Looks like it was just stretched to fit the male body; little alterations. It would look better as a full top on male, in my opinion.

Neutral:
https://i.ibb.co/2cDhns7/avi2.png

I chose these examples as one is a full armor set (spiky and stuff), and the second shows quite a bit of skin, while still looking good on both the male and female variants.

Feminine healer sets:
https://i.ibb.co/6m7yJNZ/avi21.png
Ravel Keepers is a standout, for not only is it's aesthetic quite feminine, there look to be no alterations to the top, which is quite obviously meant for a female. The White Mage set, is very obviously designed for a female; it's design is that of a Nun.

Neutral:
https://i.ibb.co/YWXpLrj/defav1.png

And one good example of a male only set, that would look good on both (neutral) if it was ported for female characters:
https://i.ibb.co/WD8z44D/gfdshgsfdhjku.png

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

pictures and stuff

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So women's gear can only show off boobs and everything else is either manly or neutral (except white mage gear which is "very obviously designed for females" for... reasons?)

Let me just say one thing: Regardless of which gender you use, those armor sets with blatant openings in the chest area are super lame and not appealing at all. Armor should be armor, I don't see why women's armor should naturally be expected to leave your chest area completely unguarded. If that's the example of women's gear in this game then count me out lmao.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

So women's gear can only show off boobs and everything else is either manly or neutral (except white mage gear which is "very obviously designed for females" for... reasons?)

Let me just say one thing: Regardless of which gender you use, those armor sets with blatant openings in the chest area are super lame and not appealing at all. Armor should be armor, I don't see why women's armor should naturally be expected to leave your chest area completely unguarded. If that's the example of women's gear in this game then count me out lmao.

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There's a difference between a feminine aesthetic, and gear designed for a female. I had a feeling I would have to explain why I am of the opinion those examples were designed for females. One looks to take a nun's aesthetic:

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A nun is a woman who vows to dedicate her life to religious service

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I didn't think I'd have to explain the Ravel Keeper top, but that's a bra. I digress.

I actually had some armor sets that were "feminine" in design that I didn't share, as the post would be too big.

No, a low cut top doesn't necessarily mean it's "feminine", as I shared examples of feminine healer pieces that weren't low cut (a couple not robes), and the Warg set. It's just a way to show off the female form. If more sets of armor incorporated more feminine designs, whether it was low cut or not, I'd consider it feminine. SE just makes much of the actual armor fairly neutral, and often times if it's altered for female, it will be low cut.

https://i.ibb.co/0rL00jC/haccasdfsf.png

Honestly with how few things stay the same on both genders with genderlocked items. I think more shoupd be extremely feminine short skirt tank tops, long socks...

As it stands i almost feel like ill have to make a deal with a modder to trick the game into thinking bunnyboy is female so i have complete options.. Shisui set being different angers me greatly. And on mog station theres like 3 items that arent that are feminine.. People say they changed some but they didnt

nah.

/thread

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I mean masculine aesthetics refer to clothing and armor that flatter the male frame. Hallmarks of this include broad chest and shoulders aswell as projecting a sense of strength and power. Heavy armor tends to this very well.

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Those things aren't inherently masculine traits, there's so many different variations of body type that limiting the expression unto one form of it is kind of myopic. Things that look flattering on men, can look flattering on women for similar reasons (broad shoulders, chest) and strength + power also aren't inherently masculine and are features that can be, also, just as well applied to female characters. There's a particular aesthetic there, but to call it masculine is shortsighted when speaking of design as a whole. Especially when, in XIV at least, a lot of jobs tend to encompass a particular aesthetic theme that their armor (generally AF) tries to compliment, exemplify and embody.

From a standpoint of AF gear, designing heavy plate for a WHM is probably awkward. Not to say that there couldn't be designs that are somewhat plate-like for healers, but the people who are otherwise fine with the overall aesthetic of the role/class they chose are going to dislike designs that depart heavily from that fantasy and the same is true for people who don't like the base aesthetic of those classes. Even so, there are a lot of glamour options in the game (like replica variant sets, intermixed with modern sets, intermixed with story reward outfits, intermixed with cash shop options) that can be utilized to create a wide variety of armor aesthetics that tailors to particular player tastes. Same goes for the majority of classes in the game -- you can, if a player desires, dress up a DRK like it has a PLD aesthetic, or a more casual aesthetic, or a more sexy aesthetic, or a more power-fantasy aesthetic, etc...

But I don't think DRK AF gear that, say, puts a miniskirt on the character and has a massive chest window with a white and pink color scheme would go over well for the people who pick and play that job for it's base aesthetic theme. Regardless of gender.

Wanting less robe options for healers/casters is fine, though saying more "Masculine attire" is still ultimately a meaningless phrase because it can mean so many different things. Especially when, in the same vein, if a male set was designed to accentuate the male form in a more sexy style, people tend to claim that's also not masculine. Which, it is. It's just not the particular aesthetic they necessarily want for their male character -- be it wanting more power fantasy appearances, more traditional knight appearances, rugged appearances etc...

And, what you described, are things players I know -- many of them, including myself -- want for female characters. With a more lean towards sets that lean into a power fantasy at times, sets that look like they came off a metal album cover, sets that look more noble and knightly. I generally prefer these sorts of aesthetics for female characters I play, just as I tend to prefer the opposite styles of aesthetics when I play male characters. It's one reason I generally like the majority of the Samurai PvP set with that dragon helmet (albeit, minus the helmet).

It's just muddying the waters of discussion to limit the terminology to "masculine" and "feminine" when, inherently, no design or color combination belongs to either (and different people -- individually, culturally, socially -- will have different expectations for what both of those mean). There's just been particular skews towards specific aesthetic archetypes that appear on depictions of women/men in media due to the frequency with which they appear. Getting into more specifics with design is, generally, going to be the more valuable style of feedback/criticism.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I was in this discussion as well, and i don’t see why i can’t raise my complaints up. Especially when many people seem to share the sentiments that i bring up time and time again. You decided to bring up something completely unrelated to the overall discussion by taking a dig at me which is just completely disrespectful and harmful to the thread discussion as a whole. Again, i find it interesting it’s mainly female character saying they don’t see an issue with the feminine glams lmao. There’s a constant favoritism for them and i’ve given numerous examples for it. If you choose to purposely be on lupus to it that’s on you. But to derail the discussion and take a dig at another poster is just rude and unprofessional. I expected more from you considering how often you post.

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I apologise for bringing up your outfit. I shouldn't have.

But as I keep saying when you repeat your observation that it's "female characters who don't have a problem with feminine glamour", I have characters of both genders, and the way I dress one has no bearing on the others. You can't tell how many other people in the discussion also have alts of the other gender.

You can dress your healer in masculine outfits. You can dress your healer as 9S. You can be a field medic or an armoured knight or Late Allagan tech support. You're not restricted to only wearing feminine outfits even with healer-specific gear, and you can widen the net further by mixing with all-class gear.

(Admittedly a fair few of my male healer glamours revolve around an all-class body piece mixed with job-specific pieces, but it still comes down to a unique healer-specific outfit. I don't keep score of where they came from, I just know they look great.)

The other thing I've noticed from playing with multiple characters is that things may not look good "on men" but but look excellent on men of a specific race because of the different body shapes and how pieces of the outfit have been scaled to fit.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Ravel Keepers is a standout, for not only is it's aesthetic quite feminine, there look to be no alterations to the top, which is quite obviously meant for a female. The White Mage set, is very obviously designed for a female; it's design is that of a Nun.

...

I didn't think I'd have to explain the Ravel Keeper top, but that's a bra. I digress.

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I'm not sure about their intentions with the Ravel set, but it's worth noting that it isn't just a player gearset but the clothing worn by the Night's Blessed. (The Viis tribe wear the DPS Ravel set but nobody to my awareness uses the more masculine tank set.)

The question then is, does the gear first get designed as NPC gear and then added to the dungeon to get more use out of it, or does it get designed for the dungeon first and the story character designers just have to take what the costume designer came up with in isolation?

It seems more logical to design for NPCs first, and if so then they opted to give those outfits to both genders.

I don't think the top looks like a bra though. I take more issue with the heavy skirt that makes it difficult to do much else with the outfit. I'm surprised that they didn't do at least one variant without.

As for the white mage set, I do agree that their relics have an issue with being too feminine, but the only part that looks nun-like is the hood, and that only because of the second hair-covering layer of fabric under it – which is a design restriction rather than a choice of the artist, because the game can't handle showing just the front part of the hair without the rest. I think they're trying to get at the classic white mage hooded cloak but the game doesn't let them.

Of course, even without the hood it has something of a bride theme to it, but it's worth noting that the male version does have some differences like the hip armour and less lace.

Also, puzzlingly, the female version has three-quarter sleeves that look awful compared to the full-length version on the male version. If anything there is a confusing pattern of designing a good feminine outfit that they put on the men, and then the women get a version with weird changes like the aforementioned sleeves or the awful fan collar that made the level 70 robe nigh-unwearable.

All that said, I have seen some cool takes on the Ebers robe like this one (dyed black with plainer gloves and pants underneath). I want to try mixing it with armour pieces.

so what i gather from this is that your saying op that robes are femine wow i always knew the pope was secretly a girl ;) or the cardinals for that matter joking aside some of the most powerful people in our world who are male wear robes ... they must be super femine in fact you should travel to the middle east and tell them look like girls because they wear robes ... ;)

*snickers to herself*

History is full of people who have worn the robe it's a power symbol through history Emperors, Kings, Popes and other figures of power have worn robes but you say its femine huh

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

so what i gather from this is that your saying op that robes are femine wow i always knew the pope was secretly a girl ;) or the cardinals for that matter joking aside some of the most powerful people in our world who are male wear robes ... they must be super femine in fact you should travel to the middle east and tell them look like girls because they wear robes ... ;)

*snickers to herself*

History is full of people who have worn the robe it's a power symbol through history Emperors, Kings, Popes and other figures of power have worn robes but you say its femine huh

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not wanting to start any arguments about genders or who can wear what, etc.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

I had a conversation with a friend earlier who was complaining about White Mage in Endwalker because they believe the AF is too 'dress-like' again, and that many of the animations are 'too feminine' for him - such as the huge lily for Holy 3 and the (in my opinion very cute) heart-shaped lilybell for the Lilybell level 90 skill.

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Oddly smug for someone claiming they summed up OP's intentions when so much of it got ignored. /shrug

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Oddly smug for someone claiming they summed up OP's intentions when so much of it got ignored. /shrug

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it's even odder that you would take offense on behalf of the op when most of my post was in jest and some historical facts

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Originally Posted by Alaray

It's just muddying the waters of discussion to limit the terminology to "masculine" and "feminine" when, inherently, no design or color combination belongs to either (and different people -- individually, culturally, socially -- will have different expectations for what both of those mean). There's just been particular skews towards specific aesthetic archetypes that appear on depictions of women/men in media due to the frequency with which they appear. Getting into more specifics with design is, generally, going to be the more valuable style of feedback/criticism.

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There is a clear difference in aesthetic design, and most people understand what people mean by "feminine" design. Would people prefer different terms for the different aesthetics instead, since this is apparently a touchy subject?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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Either way, there are many designs that are feminine in concept, and/or have parts of said sets that look to be designed with the female form in mind specifically. It's like looking at a muscle cuirass from real world history, that is designed for the male form.

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In classical antiquity, the muscle cuirass (Latin: lorica musculata), anatomical cuirass, or heroic cuirass is a type of cuirass made to fit the wearer's torso and designed to mimic an idealized male human physique.

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With that example of that customized Ebers robe, the player has tried to mitigate these features, by removing the pieces that are overtly feminine, it seems.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Real men don't put too much stock into what they wear at all unless its business related. They tend to value substance over style.

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I dare to think these motherduckers were seen appropriately manly in their own time.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...man-D89PER.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ury-E6060B.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...175110/360.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...423488/980.png

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

With that example of that customized Ebers robe, the player has tried to mitigate these features, by removing the pieces that are overtly feminine, it seems.

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You say that like it's not one of the core concepts of building glamour – looking at a piece and thinking "I don't like the aesthetic of the set, but this part could look amazing if I mix it with these other things".

Gear very often looks better mixed with other sets than with its own set, but that's the beauty of this mix-and-match glamour system.

I love it when a piece that didn't look great at first impression actually turns out to look really good with the right combination.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I guess what I don't understand is why it's bothersome being a male character in a robe but nobody is bothered by dressing their female characters in heavy armor? This is exclusively a problem coming from the male portion of the playerbase and it seems odd to me why it has to be such a big deal.

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Female figure tends to look nice in both masculine or feminine styles clothes. Male figure doesn't work like that and just looks weird. I'm sure you already know it so I am surprised why you find it odd that it is generally disliked

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Female figure tends to look nice in both masculine or feminine styles clothes. Male figure doesn't work like that and just looks weird. I'm sure you already know it so I am surprised why you find it odd that it is generally disliked

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I went through the Eorzeacollection site because I had gotten curious. What I took away from that is that there is a lot of potential glams. A lot a lot :D And a great many are not overly feminine. I’d even say some of the robe-ish healer garb looks better on (hyur) males than (hyur) females. I’m not denying some of it is designed in such a way that it pretty much screams ‘female physique!’ so I get that it doesn’t flow as well on a male physique, but it’s definitely not all of it. When I looked at other roles, I noticed a similar trend. Some look great on males, some on females, some on both.

I’m all for diversity, and options, and pants (I’m downright envious of some of the male tweaks to gearsets, sensible pants where I get naked thighs, leather jacket instead of pretty, but still not a leather jacket, dress hnnng!). But personally I feel they offer a lot of variety if you focus less on sets and more on individual pieces, which I do too myself. Besides that I think the designers don’t shy away from the more flamboyant, more colourful, more playful, the more bare skin on both genders. That is a way of offering diversity in itself, even if it doesn’t necessarily fit certain cultural masculine stereotypes.

I would describe FF14 as not as outspoken masculine machismo-esque in general tbh. Flirtatious instead of overbearing. Lighthearted instead of forceful. That that is reflected in the gear options is sort of logical.

its bc there are no beards

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

We just need a whole xpac of fully armored healers. Just a overly masculine expansion, then every everybody wins, and no more glamour like the 2b drek.

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Hard pass.

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

its bc there are no beards

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Ramuh beard glamour?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You say that like it's not one of the core concepts of building glamour – looking at a piece and thinking "I don't like the aesthetic of the set, but this part could look amazing if I mix it with these other things".

Gear very often looks better mixed with other sets than with its own set, but that's the beauty of this mix-and-match glamour system.

I love it when a piece that didn't look great at first impression actually turns out to look really good with the right combination.

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I was looking at the concept of the full set designs itself: "Feminine or masculine", as is what this thread is about. Of course a player can mix and match pieces from separate sets, to make one better suited to their tastes - I should know since it's what I do during a lot of my time playing this game. Luckily, SE does allow players the freedom of customization, and can turn a once overtly "feminine" or "masculine" set's pieces look good with other pieces. I would just like to see more quality options that satisfy both ends. Regardless, SE does seem to have clear design philosophies when it comes to certain classes and roles.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Ramuh beard glamour?

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Now we just need a /bellylaugh emote to complete our next christmas.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I was looking at the concept of the full set designs itself

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I know you were, and I was pointing out that – despite the vibe of the overall set – it doesn't need to be written off as unsalvagably feminine and only suited to the bride/nun vibe.

Ultimately, gear comes in pieces rather than full costumes, and you're not locked to using the whole thing together.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Ramuh beard glamour?

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The beard is the primal. The old man is just glamour.

For WHM, I think it's the flower thing. Flowers, butterflies, frills on robes - it's all considered feminine

I just hate how we girls get screwed over. It's entirely possible to give both genders pants with the robe/tunic. But instead we get skirts that look like birthday cakes or we get to dress entirely like a nun and the guys get to run around in pants.

I don't see a problem with people wanting ore masculine style to their jobs. It's just how they prefer to see their characters. WHM doesn't HAVE to be feminine, but it is designed as such. It's perfectly fine to have feminine style looks and animations for the job. But it is also perfectly fine to want a masculine style to it as well. Some people don't like being girly. There are both men and women that don't want to be seen as so girly just because they play a certain job. There is nothing wrong with that feeling and those that are chastising others for wanting that are pretty toxic IMO.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

I don't see a problem with people wanting ore masculine style to their jobs. It's just how they prefer to see their characters. WHM doesn't HAVE to be feminine, but it is designed as such. It's perfectly fine to have feminine style looks and animations for the job. But it is also perfectly fine to want a masculine style to it as well. Some people don't like being girly. There are both men and women that don't want to be seen as so girly just because they play a certain job. There is nothing wrong with that feeling and those that are chastising others for wanting that are pretty toxic IMO.

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I though we already established that robes aren't girly though their the most manly thing ever just because you people aren't as chad as the pope or some arabic king or the emperor and kings of old don't mean their not manly

http://www.artnet.com/WebServices/im...tion-robes.jpg
heck this guy would most likely have you executed if you said he looked girly

https://kafkadesk.org/wp-content/upl...akia-visit.jpg
or how about this guys



on a more serious note the jobs have always had a certain design and the whitemage is traditionally a women so odds are the artifact armor will never not have frills :D
as for blackmage most of the major characters who are blackmages are also female the only exception of note is the Crystal Exarch but his more a multi job npc

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

I though we already established that robes aren't girly though their the most manly thing ever just because you beta males aren't as chad as the pope or some arabic king or the emperor and kings of old don't mean their not manly

http://www.artnet.com/WebServices/im...tion-robes.jpg
heck this guy would most likely have you executed if you said he looked girly

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And it's also been said over and over that not all robes are feminine, but do tend to generally incline more to feminine looks, or at the least, have female characters in mind when designing them, even if the robe itself is neutral - SCH, AST, SMN, BLM, and RDM are also stuck with robes most of he time, yet it's specifically WHM the one always being called out for being 'girly', because it is a traditionally female job. (also, casters do have a little more variation than healers, specially as of late, so there's that too)

wait how is scholar femine the gear looks just fine on men and it still looks very true to how they looked in ff 11

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...r-artifact.jpg

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c3d14a7d50.jpg

heck in some instances the armor actually look worse on females because they made it femine or sexualized it take the original Dragoon Job armor for example i'd never wear it the mid rift thing is just stupid same with the ninja FF 11 had the thing where the armors looked virtually identical on males or females with the only thing being that we never got pants ; ;

More bulky robes released just means I'll glamour over them with the Bonewicca Jacket and Serpentskin Vest again and again and again.

"Oh noez, casting animations hurt my masculinity!!!"

real funny to read here I have to say. Does your friend also think dancer is too feminin because "real men dont dance"?

Seriously though, standards for masculinity and femininity change like every few hundred years or so anyway. And why even care, some men like to have nice looking clothes instead of the same "manly man!" outfit.

If your friend only likes the hardcore men stuff, we have a whole section of tanks with big weapons and big bulky armor, cant get more manly than that.

And in the end, we still have glamour, as much as we like. if you dont like a set, you can make it look however you like, and there are enough options in game to satisfy every desire for what you personaly consider masculin, feminin or anything in between.

What I start to find funny is every other comment in this thread instantly assume - and attack - op's friend's masculinity, security, and gender identity just for stating his opinion over an aesthetic. Projecting much?

PS: _Koneko_, you may have misread my comment, if it's the one you're referring to - I never said SCH is feminine, but that all the other caster/healers are also stuck using mostly robes, yet none of them ever gets as much flak as WHM. If anything, in a somewhat ironic manner, SCH is the most "masculine" healer out of the 3.

Its not really that bad.
But I have the feeling most Gear gets designed with a Female Miqhote in Mind.

In FFXI it seemed that everything got designed for a Male Hume and than got ported to other Genders and Races.
In FFXIV everything is designed for a Female Miquote and gets ported to other Genders and Races.

Its not good or bad. Its just how it feels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

Its not really that bad.
But I have the feeling most Gear gets designed with a Female Miqhote in Mind.

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Female Hyur, maybe, but not Miqo'te. Their ears in particular seem like an afterthought, if they get accounted for at all. They used to, though it's always been extremely hit-and-miss whether the placement makes sense, but I'm not sure if there's been a single new piece released in Shadowbringers that has room for their ears at all.