Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

Well, I'm not sure anyone here is claiming it was a good plan.

Not saying they are, more just I'd be annoyed if that's what it turned out to be as you'd expect better from a "man of learning" only way I'd accept it is if they do want the twins and potentially us to come straight to them, then it's working great.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I still heavily suspect Sharlayan been planning for the Final Days for a very long time. We know that we my even enter a Ark that Sharlayan made in 6.0 as a Dungeon which looks almost or is already complete.

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If that Ark is powered by voidsent I desperately hope to have a response of "have you literally learned nothing from the past few Calamities".

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

My issue with it being a "I'm trying to keep you out of harm's way!" is, all he's done is make them want to go straight there, so unless it's a reverse play and he's actually really evil and wants them to come running, or trick them into coming home so he can keep them there, his plan doesn't seem very thought out. 9 times out of 10 the "I've no time/ability to explain, let me do something shocking and out of character without explanation, don't try to figure out why and stay out of it." does not work.

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Well they can also go for a darker path for Fourchenault being he did this because he fully intends to let them die in the Final Days because he deems them not worth being saved and to be part of the new world Sharlayan plans to create using the Sharlayan Ark due to what he deemed too corrupted by outside influence.

Thus setting Fouschenault up as someone who was never redeemable because he strongly believes in Sharlayan's beliefs and plans to make Sharlayan the rulers of a new world order after the Final Days and will sacrifice even his own family to see it through. Even to a point we may have to fight him with Alphinaud and Alisaie aiding WoL resulting in WoL having to kill him infront of the twins because he refuse to back down.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

If that Ark is powered by voidsent I desperately hope to have a response of "have you literally learned nothing from the past few Calamities".

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Honestly, I won't be surprised if the only thing they learned was to successfully implament the plan without any issues since Sharlayan been keeping a lot of secrets from the world.

I just find it funny how people assume the worst from someone we’ve seen for 5 minutes tops lmao. Have we learned nothing from things like ARR and HW.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well they can also go for a darker path for Fourchenault being he did this because he fully intends to let them die in the Final Days because he deems them not worth being saved and to be part of the new world Sharlayan plans to create using the Sharlayan Ark due to what he deemed too corrupted by outside influence.

Thus setting Fouschenault up as someone who was never redeemable because he strongly believes in Sharlayan's beliefs and plans to make Sharlayan the rulers of a new world order after the Final Days and will sacrifice even his own family to see it through. Even to a point we may have to fight him with Alphinaud and Alisaie aiding WoL resulting in WoL having to kill him infront of the twins because he refuse to back down.

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Still wouldn't explain the initial warm reception if he felt that way, though. You'd think the disdain would either come thru outright, or at least prevent him from anything other than detached neutrality when he sees them.

I could see this, though I hope this isn't the way its going, for the twins' sake. Aymeric really had enough daddy issues to cover our quota till next story season, imo.


Speaking of family ties; Do we know if Urianger has any relatives? It'd also be awesome if we could meet some of Moenbryda's family. She was name dropped a few patches ago, I think, so she's not been forgotten. I still take her minion out occasionally, so I think it'd be very cool to meet relatives and hear more about her.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it funny how people assume the worst from someone we’ve seen for 5 minutes tops lmao. Have we learned nothing from things like ARR and HW.

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Personally I've learned from ARR and HW that the writers will try to create "sympathetic" backstories and motivations for characters, but only after trying to show them in the worst light possible, and then kind of ignoring how the later "revelations" of their motivations make the earlier terrible actions even more problematic in hindsight. Simply because the characterization had to serve different purposes at different points in time.

I still haven't forgiven Ysayle for massacring that shipment caravan of crystals for Revenant's Toll. I would have forgiven her if she's apologized about it, but she never did, and I can only assume it's because the writers themselves forgot that she did that.

In Fourchenault's case, it's probably because no matter what his motivations, it still doesn't excuse his actions. Currently every potentially sympathetic reading of his possible motivations lead to the conclusion that Fourchenault is either very stupid, or still a jerk for choosing this method anyway. My expectation is that if Fourchenault is revealed to have the twins' best interests at heart, the writers will again conveniently forget that he chose to use this method, instead of any other.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

problematic

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That word again, eh? Well, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective ultimately. Much like humans in the real world, realistic characters in fictional settings are complex and hypocritical.

Personally I don't need a character to grovel in apology for their past actions in order to find them relatable, interesting or sympathetic. I'm also inclined to think that there's plenty of threads present in advance to suggest that a character is worthy of a second look instead of being immediately branded 'unforgivable' and 'unhinged'.

I'm reminded of Yotsuyu and how many here claimed she had zero redeeming qualities or reason for doing what she did only for 4.3 to further highlight already present elements of her backstory and suddenly the tune changed quite drastically.

I suspect we'll see a similar situation come into play with Fourchenault.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, Dyunbu shows up in a number of FATE's throughout the Bozjan Southern Front. The FATE description even lampshades that killing medics is frowned upon, yet the Warrior of Darkness and the Bozjan Resistance do it anyway. All the while, Dyunbu is pleading for you to stop killing her men. She survives initially, joins forces with a different group of scattered survivors and then sees the exact same thing happen once again. She's eventually put down herself in a third FATE.

Even Misija was captured (albeit temporarily) yet lethal force is wielded against Dyunbu. Her field notes paint a picture of her being a pretty likable individual, so it's a shame that it ended the way that it did. Ultimately, though, it's clear proof that the protagonists are not the 'good guys' and that someday they themselves will need to answer for their sins.

Matsuno's great at handling the nuance and realities of war, though. So ultimately it's a good thing - it's not something to be glorified or feel 'good' about. There's no real winners or loses regardless of the outcome. Just a load of dead bodies on either side.

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Her field notes paint her as a zealot for Gabranth. Eyes on utopia no matter the cost. That paints her as not quite right imo.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I chose execution for Misija, simply because while she was following orders, she was not given orders to temper one person and force him to kill his friends (even Lyon seemed disgusted by this), she was not ordered to turn the Blades into those monstrosities, she was not ordered to attempt to destroy Bozja. All of that was her, her higher-ups have no blame whatsoever in that. When she wanted me to kill her, I tried to, simply because it felt like she didn't want the execution to come from those in her own country that caused her to become this way, but from the hero that had managed to free and change entire countries for the better.


Dyunbu is a medic, and we kill her entire medic squad in one fate and then her in another.

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You mean that conjurer who's literally killing Bozjan Resistance, and later comes back as a Zombie in the final fight that she's in? Hardly a moral conundrum there. Killing medics is frowned upon because they're supposed to be treating their own wounded (and if they are treating someone on the battlefield and unarmed that is when it goes against polite conventions. If somebody's wearing medic colors but shooting your men, then damn right you kill them).

I'm fairly certain no Garleans have ever hesitated when killing conjurers from Gridania. I certainly ain't gonna lose any sleep over Dyunbu, and she certainly wasn't an unarmed non-combatant just treating the wounded on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That word again, eh? Well, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective ultimately. Much like humans in the real world, realistic characters in fictional settings are complex and hypocritical.

Personally I don't need a character to grovel in apology for their past actions in order to find them relatable, interesting or sympathetic. I'm also inclined to think that there's plenty of threads present in advance to suggest that a character is worthy of a second look instead of being immediately branded 'unforgivable' and 'unhinged'.

I'm reminded of Yotsuyu and how many here claimed she had zero redeeming qualities or reason for doing what she did only for 4.3 to further highlight already present elements of her backstory and suddenly the tune changed quite drastically.

I suspect we'll see a similar situation come into play with Fourchenault.

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To her dying breath I hated Yotsuyu, her only saving graces was she made Goesetsu a better character, all my dialogue choices always reflected that, I cared about Goesetsu not Yotsuyu or Tsuyu, her other saving grace is her boss fight is fun.

Fourchenault did a jerk move here but he isn't irredeemable like Yotsuyu was, I believe he disowned his children to manipulate them into coming home, I am positive he knows his own daughter well enough to know she is headstrong and would want an answer from him, now whether or not he wants them to come home for their protection or to change the Forum's mind on something he personally doesn't approve of is pure speculation.

That said I do still want to call him out or punch him because he looked down on my character the man was a jerk.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

In Fourchenault's case, it's probably because no matter what his motivations, it still doesn't excuse his actions. Currently every potentially sympathetic reading of his possible motivations lead to the conclusion that Fourchenault is either very stupid, or still a jerk for choosing this method anyway. My expectation is that if Fourchenault is revealed to have the twins' best interests at heart, the writers will again conveniently forget that he chose to use this method, instead of any other.

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I don’t think every possible reading makes him out to be stupid or a jerk. I think people are just being purposely ignorant towards him because he verbally hurt “their children.” If he has them in his mind and he is doing what he’s doing for the betterment of the world, which is entirely possible, then no that isn’t really stupid or him being a jerk. I would hope the writers don’t just repeat past story contrivances because that’s extremely lazy. But based on how much we know currently i don’t think it’s going to be anywhere as simple as everyone is making it out to be. People need to get over that someone was actually “harsh” to the twins for once lmao.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

To her dying breath I hated Yotsuyu, her only saving graces was she made Goesetsu a better character, all my dialogue choices always reflected that, I cared about Goesetsu not Yotsuyu or Tsuyu, her other saving grace is her boss fight is fun.

Fourchenault did a jerk move here but he isn't irredeemable like Yotsuyu was, I believe he disowned his children to manipulate them into coming home, I am positive he knows his own daughter well enough to know she is headstrong and would want an answer from him, now whether or not he wants them to come home for their protection or to change the Forum's mind on something he personally doesn't approve of is pure speculation.

That said I do still want to call him out or punch him because he looked down on my character the man was a jerk.

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Same in regards to Yotsuyu, except I'd say she had one more redeeming quality, taking Asahi out of the story with her. Even if his body is being repurposed now.

There were the bones of a compelling story and good character there. But they made the classic mistake of going in too hard too fast with the evil. Like, when you're coercing peasants to murder eachother for your own amusement, simply because they're from the same NATION that wronged you, who had NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH PERSONALLY I find it kind of hard to care about her admittedly legitimately messed up background. Trauma is not an excuse to murder and torture people.

Same thing with the roe traitor person from Bozja whose name escapes me at the moment, they had her go in too far with the sadism after her betrayal for me to consider the option of 'it was the commanding officer's fault actually don't execute her.'

This is something you see a lot in some games and anime where they try to redeem a character with a sad backstory or something, but they went too far with the intial evil and sadistic nature of them for me to care. A sad backstory is not an excuse for being a terrible person.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

If that Ark is powered by voidsent I desperately hope to have a response of "have you literally learned nothing from the past few Calamities".

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We just might. ShB gave us more chances than ever to snark at people. Ishikawa willing, EW will continue that.

Honestly, even if Fortnite had no relation to the twins and had just come to deliver the Forum’s answer and leave right after, his “ah yes, Reapers” attitude makes me want to rip into him even worse than Y’shtola is doing in the trailer.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it funny how people assume the worst from someone we’ve seen for 5 minutes tops lmao. Have we learned nothing from things like ARR and HW.

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*looks at Yuyuhase, Laurentius, Archbishop, Vauthry, etc*
We've had this before and it was obvious before. Yes we've had people who turn out to be more than we suspected, but we've also had people who were EXACTLY what we expected.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Why do people keep acting like alphy and alisaie are their irl kids? :think: that’s really weird to me. Irregardless, even Graha comments that something is up with their dad. The way he acted in the patch is unlike what both the EE and Alisaie herself comments on in SB,so i’m pretty sure he’s trying to protect them. Don’t see any reason to be aggressive towards him. Especially because we’ve literally only seen the man for 5 minutes. If the WoL acted like some of the people want to...i don’t think we’d be much of a “hero” lmao.

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Because people care about these two and seeing how they are still teenagers some of us simply might see them as family. (Just like Edmont sees the WoL as part of their family) And even if he has a plan, disowning his children, who really went through a lot, is just horrible. Things like that can mentally hurt people and we see it with Alphinauds reaction afterwards.

Even if all that is for some greater good (and we dont even know that) it was still done in a way that hurt his own children.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I still heavily suspect Sharlayan been planning for the Final Days for a very long time. We know that we my even enter a Ark that Sharlayan made in 6.0 as a Dungeon which looks almost or is already complete.

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And here I really wonder: How could they have planned that for a long time when the world would not have final days without us changing the future? The first course of history was a world where a lot of people were killed thanks to black rose. It was a future where the world was still bad 200 years later and where everyone other than Lahabrea was still alive.

I really have a hard time believing that Sharlayan somehow already knew that we would come and change the history. Honestly for me it feels that maybe they still believe that the bad future will happen thus why its just a petty conflict between Eorzea nd Garlemald to them. Maybe they will painfully learn that all their knowledge will amount to nothing.

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Still about disowning his children to protect them: From what? Sharlayan? Because if he plans to somehow keep his children save then disowning them imo does not help at all...they will continue fighting which could get them killed. Wouldnt it make more sense to bascially force his children to come with him so that they can be save at home?

If he wanted to keep them save from his own country then that seemingly also did not work at all..after all we already plan to go to it after Krile sends her okay.

Each to their own, I guess, but I don't see the sadism of Yotsuyu and Misijia as being much different to that of the Warrior of Darkness and Scions at this point. Not after the deliberate and sustained physical and mental torture of a medic on the battlefield, cruelly cutting down her friends and comrades right in front of her as she begged for mercy. Not just once but twice - with ample opportunity to take her as a prisoner - and then in the final confrontation she is cut down like a rabid dog.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Because people care about these two and seeing how they are still teenagers some of us simply might see them as family. (Just like Edmont sees the WoL as part of their family) And even if he has a plan, disowning his children, who really went through a lot, is just horrible. Things like that can mentally hurt people and we see it with Alphinauds reaction afterwards.

Even if all that is for some greater good (and we dont even know that) it was still done in a way that hurt his own children.

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If it’s a matter of the world vs hurting his kids feelings, i’m sure the latter more than justifies it. They’ll get over it as i’m sure they’ll have some expansion long arc about how the wol is their new parent and the scions are their true family yadda yadda. It might just be what helps Alphinaud and Alisaie grow up tbh. With Arenvald’s hero worship of Alphinaud certainly not helping him much this patch, i think what the dad did might just be the kick in the head he needs.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it funny how people assume the worst from someone we’ve seen for 5 minutes tops lmao. Have we learned nothing from things like ARR and HW.

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What I got from the end of ARR was trust issues, to the point where I spent some time expecting a cutscene of Haurchefant hurting the WoL -part of why I hated the road trip was because for a while I was waiting for Estinien and Ysayle to each try to kill me again. Most of the new characters I’ve encountered since then, I have fallen into the habit of regarding with suspicion until I’ve seen/known enough of them to believe they’re okay. That way, when, say, Asahi really does turn out to be the worst ambassador ever, or Emet goes after me/my friends, I’m not shocked, just ready to finally throw hands. And when the Fortemps family really does like me, or Kai-Shirr and the Chais turn out to be pretty cool, I get a pleasant surprise. Heck, I still don’t trust Hancock!

Endwalker may give me a good reason or three to think better of 4ChanAlt, but until I get those reasons, he and his mysterious doomsday contingency plan get the side-eye.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it funny how people assume the worst from someone we’ve seen for 5 minutes tops lmao. Have we learned nothing from things like ARR and HW.

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I mean we already at least know about his stance with his own father who simply wanted to save Eorzea. (And we know how that would have ended if he was not there?) Alisaie also does not talk that greatly about him either, saying that he barely even stayed in contact with his kids. And now he was shown as someone straight up disowning his children while others are there too.

I think it should be quite reasonable that not everyone still likes him and thinks of him as an awesome person.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That word again, eh? Well, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective ultimately. Much like humans in the real world, realistic characters in fictional settings are complex and hypocritical.

I'm reminded of Yotsuyu and how many here claimed she had zero redeeming qualities or reason for doing what she did only for 4.3 to further highlight already present elements of her backstory and suddenly the tune changed quite drastically.

I suspect we'll see a similar situation come into play with Fourchenault.

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Of course people are complex but that does not mean that we have to like them or think that they are great. Even the worst real life people will have something sympathetic if you dig deep enough but that does not mean that this suddenly outweights their actions.

Just like how Yotsuyus past might have explained her a bit more and gave a more complex story behind her actions but what she did was still absolutely horrible. (I also have a hard time seeing people comparing Yotsuyu and the twins dad. Not liking a character because they acted like a jerk and wanting to teach him some kind of lesson is not the same as saying that he is on the same level as the woman who mass murdered and tortured countless of Doman people)

I mean you also dont like all the characters in the game. Graha is a recent example. Someone that also only got a major role with Shadowbringers and that after 5.3 has to find his place in the old world. Yet its quite fine to wish him death even though his own character arc as the new Graha just started while we cant go and say that we simply dont like the twins dad because right now he is a jerk?

How many people disliked Alphinaud because he was a stuck up brat in ARR? Were they wrong too to dislike him at that moment? When are we allowed to like or dislike a character? Maybe sometimes the view will change with more story later but maybe he will be just a jerk at the end.

I think it's fine for a nation to decide not to involve itself in foreign affairs and cling to a stance of neutrality. In turn, they shouldn't expect any help from others if they themselves find themselves in trouble.

It wasn't as if they didn't attempt to do anything to diffuse tensions, either. They sent diplomats to Garlemald in an effort to dissuade Eorzea from being conquered and their words fell on deaf ears. They chose to withdraw from Eorzea rather than stand and fight - and their choice should be respected, as far as I'm concerned.

To me, it's just a case of the likes of Alphinaud and Alisae being so selfish that they believe that every nation needs to conform to their world view and if they do not then they need to be strong armed into changing their mind.

As for the family squabbling, the twins have long since overstayed their welcome in the story for me so at this point I'm rather indifferent to their 'plight'. Their father already respected their decision to take their leave of Sharlayan in favour of following in their Grandfather's footsteps, even if Fourchenault disagreed with it. Sure, he might have disowned them but I don't think that is going to hit them as hard as some seem to be implying. For starters, they've barely mentioned their mother or father up until this point, they're not lacking in supportive individuals around them and they've already been throwing themselves headfirst into danger on repeated occasions.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I mean we already at least know about his stance with his own father who simply wanted to save Eorzea. (And we know how that would have ended if he was not there?) Alisaie also does not talk that greatly about him either, saying that he barely even stayed in contact with his kids. And now he was shown as someone straight up disowning his children while others are there too.

I think it should be quite reasonable that not everyone still likes him and thinks of him as an awesome person.

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? Alisaie literally speaks highly of him in SB lmao, and so does EE. It says he respects people’s decisions to pave their own path even if he disagrees and it’s why he let them go on their own, so they could do their own thing. She literally says he’s a good dad lol

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Each to their own, I guess, but I don't see the sadism of Yotsuyu and Misijia as being much different to that of the Warrior of Darkness and Scions at this point. Not after the deliberate and sustained physical and mental torture of a medic on the battlefield, cruelly cutting down her friends and comrades right in front of her as she begged for mercy. Not just once but twice - with ample opportunity to take her as a prisoner - and then in the final confrontation she is cut down like a rabid dog.

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I mean the scions do not even take part in Bozja and Yotsuyu killed and tortured civilians. I am not exactly sure where the WoD or the scions ever did something similar.

I also did not do the new Bozja zone so I have no idea whats going on there but in the old zones, we are in a war. Of course we will kill the enemies and unlike real life where medics are often just there to threat the wounded these "medics" bascially are warriors themselves. Just because she can also throw out a healing spell does not change the fact that she will surely kill us too if we just stand there and do nothing. (If she has more than one confrontation that also means that she decided to battle us more than once)

Honestly if Misijia just fought against us like a normal soldier and then we got her captured and got asked what to do with her, I could see her being sympathetic because she would (just like we are) just be a soldier in a war. But she was more than that. She spied on us, she captured and tortured Mikoto. She then tempered the minds of her former comrades (and I doubt all of them were horrible to her) and then turned them into monsters. She went beyond a normal soldier.

I am still not seeing how we are even close to that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

? Alisaie literally speaks highly of him in SB lmao, and so does EE. It says he respects people’s decisions to pave their own path even if he disagrees and it’s why he let them go on their own, so they could do their own thing. She literally says he’s a good dad lol

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I looked at the 5.55 cutscenes again and I guess I remembered it a bit more harsh then it was (or maybe its the german version who is that? Cant confirm it right now since I am on a break). But at least when Graha ask her if he is simply concerned for their wellbeing she is kinda like "maybe?". He seemingly never discussed his work with them and Alphinaud does answer that he never replies to their letters, its alway their mother.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

(If she has more than one confrontation that also means that she decided to battle us more than once)

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Erm...after the first time(which actually, even the first time we're technically invading their territory). It’s literally us hunting her down lmao. She’s tending to her people in the 2nd and third fate and we’re sent to cut her and her people down as she pleads for us to stop. The WoD ain’t in the right here no matter how people want to spin it. It’s war yes but...it’s war mainly caused by the missteps of the Bozjans. If i had any say in the matter i’d have sided with the IVth in a heartbeat because they definitely seemed better than the Bozjans were, and the head bozjan leader even semi-agrees because he literally uses their rules and laws as a guide for the future bozjan laws.

It's a war, yes, though there's generally a consideration of 'etiquette'. I don't mind that it happened, I just hope the 'heroes' don't cry foul next time that sort of thing happens to them.

More importantly, though, it is the Resistance, Eastern Alliance and the Eorzean Alliance who have been the aggressors in the conflict with Garlemald for a while now. Ever since Stormblood, really. Again, understandable in the name of 'freedom' but eyebrow raising that they demand everybody else moves on from their problems yet insist that, when they see benefit in it, lost territory needs to be regained for their own use.

Though, naturally, actually engaging with content and soaking up everything around it is important when having a conversation about such content. I keep forgetting that a lot of the regulars here only really dabble in the MSQ's.

I mean the conflict that was talked about in the meeting (that saved Eorzea) was not just the war. It was bascially a moon falling onto Eorzea and later Bahamut. That just not war. If the scions did not intervere this primal of pure rage would surely not just stop at Eorzeas border. After all it was meant to be a new calamity. (As far as I remember Lousioux came because of that)

None of the city states hated Sharlayan for not coming to them when the battle to take back Ala Mhigo or Doma happened. Heck I dont remember them even mentioning them much.

They only now wanted Sharlayans help because it was a world wide problem. They knew the towers popped up in Doma too and we know from the trailers that they are all over the world. Honestly I am not even sure if the scions truly wanted them to fight at their side or to simply just give them knowledge. Something which they did not give.

But I guess I should stop posting now after all I seemingly have no clue what I am talking about since I have not finished every single content in the game. (Which is only Bozja part two right now, I have after all read about Eureka) Way to try and stiffle conversations.

Edit: Interesting part about Etiquette. I dont remember that our enemies stops attacking us when I am going there as a healer and do nothing. I also remember quite a lot that we had a fate where one woman and her unicorn tried to escape Garlemald because they wanted to put her pet down. Even when she begged for her life she was still attacked and without our help she would have been captured and probably killed. They surely should read up about their etiquette too.

Yes, she chose to flee Garlemald and hand over secrets that would result in her former comrades being slain. As a traitor and a saboteur it makes sense for her former allies to be displeased with her - and that's exactly the same reaction that we've seen from the likes of the Eorzean Alliance whenever they have been shown to hunt down traitors and saboteurs. They, too, had their reasons for seeking to flee. In the case of Yotsuyu and Misija, what the Garleans offered was far better than what their former people offered. Another saboteur that springs to mind is 'The Ivy' from way back in ARR.

Ultimately it's all a matter of perspective. There's no real winners or losers in war, history is written by the supposed 'victors' and hypocrisy is ever present on both sides in the pursuit of survival.

I'm not sure where the idea of 'stifling discussion' is coming from. That was not my intention. I merely assume that if people are weighing in on something then it's because they've experienced it already. If I went to go and discuss the latest episode of a TV show, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for me to be expected to have watched it.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Edit: also remember quite a lot that we had a fate where one woman and her unicorn tried to escape Garlemald because they wanted to put her pet down. Even when she begged for her life she was still attacked and without our help she would have been captured and probably killed. They surely should read up about their etiquette too.

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Apparently you should read up on the story more. She was a Garlean defector. She was the one doing experiments on the Monoceros. She then realized after awhile it isn’t what she wanted and decided to defect, steal the Monoceros, and work with the resistance. That’s a crime and it goes both ways. Resistance defectors have also been shown in Bozja working with the IVth and we’re told to cut them down lmao.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I don’t think every possible reading makes him out to be stupid or a jerk. I think people are just being purposely ignorant towards him because he verbally hurt “their children.” If he has them in his mind and he is doing what he’s doing for the betterment of the world, which is entirely possible, then no that isn’t really stupid or him being a jerk. I would hope the writers don’t just repeat past story contrivances because that’s extremely lazy. But based on how much we know currently i don’t think it’s going to be anywhere as simple as everyone is making it out to be. People need to get over that someone was actually “harsh” to the twins for once lmao.

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Fourchenault, not being a poster on this forum, is obviously very stupid or a jerk.

After lazing about and replaying Breath of the Wild for the past few days, I finally got around to... collecting Triple Triad cards.

4th-make Cuchulainn
This former zealot of the IVth Legion was reborn by the power of auracite in the likeness of Cuchulainn the Impure of Ivalician legend. While he shares his name with a renowned voidsent, this is believed to be no more than coincidence.

4th-make Shemhazai
A IVth Legion Zealot transformed by the power of auracite into a twisted monstrosity resembling Shemhazai the Whisperer of Ivalician legend. She is believed to hold sway over the spirits of the netherworld.

Just... neat little snippets of lore attached to the cards, as per usual.

EDIT: Also, talking with Marsak and Baj to see if they have anything new to say.

Marsak, on the Dalriada's lackluster performance:

Marsak: Ah yes, the Dalriada. It was, without question, the greatest weapon in Gabranth's arsenal. That he chose to deploy it here showed he was desperate to maintain control of Bozja.
Marsak: According to Bwagi, it was a fleet of warships led by the Dalriada that brought the resistance factions in Rabanastre to a standstill after Doma gained its freedom.
Marsak: Ground units managed to disable the barrier protecting the city, and the bombardment that followed razed the city to the ground in minutes.
Marsak: Possessed of such power, I was surprised they did not engage us with the Dalriada before claiming their prize from the ruins. Try as I might, I could not figure out the why of it.
Marsak: After the battle, we searched the ship's wreckage for survivors, and the imperial soldiers we rescued, no doubt grateful for our assistance, provided me with an answer.
Marsak: If they are to be believed, the Dalriada was not, in fact, armed for battle.
Marsak: Was the warship then brought here solely for the purpose of retrieving the Allagan relic? Or was his army merely bereft of resources?
Marsak: In the case of the latter, it would not bode well for his forces that struggle even now to maintain their hold on Dalmasca and Nagxia. Perhaps now is the opportunity Lady Fran has been waiting for to rout them once and for all.

Marsak, on the topic of Misija:

Marsak: Why did she save us? With naught save conjecture to guide me, I know it is not my place to speak of her motives, but she is all that occupies my mind of late.
Marsak: She always resented the people of Bozja. The customs and traditions that would forever make her lesser in the eyes of most. Even in her final moments, I suspect her hatred for us yet burned in her breast.
Marsak: The others no doubt hate her in kind, but they do not know her as I do. They have not heard the doleful stories of her youth.
Marsak: Her childhood was a life of squalor and hunger, digging through garbage for scraps to sell that she might make ends meet.
Marsak: For her, Bozja's subjugation was a blessing. They introduced a system of welfare that afforded her the chance to be educated, and ultimately a path to the most prestigious institution of imperial learning.
Marsak: It was there, I assume, she was trained in espionage. She told me when we reclaimed Bozja, she wished to be a professor, nurturing brilliant young minds in a new age of peace and prosperity. Despite everything she has done, I still believe a part of her truly longed for that future.
Marsak: She sided with the IVth Legion, aye, but it does not change what she believed in─peace, equality, and freedom for those willing to fight for it. And fight she did...
Marsak: I believe she remained true to those convictions in the end. One last act in the name of the peace and equality she never knew as a child.
Marsak: Indeed, it was an act befitting her lineage, I should think. It was ever the queen's duty, after all, to protect the people of Bozja. But I think she did it not for us so much as for the harmonious future she believed we might achieve.
Marsak: Oh, Misija... Though I failed to save you from the darkness, I take solace in knowing the queen's grace could guide you to the light.
Marsak: Perhaps if I had been more open with her, if she knew how I truly felt for her─
Marsak: <sigh> I suppose it's too late to think about that now...

Bajsaljen, on the topic of Bozja's future:

Bajsaljen: The battle for Bozja is over, but our work is far from finished. Indeed, one might say the true battle begins now, as the various factions of the Resistance seek to fulfill their individual agendas.
Bajsaljen: Which is why I wish to first create a council of their leaders that we might discuss and establish laws to govern all of our people.
Bajsaljen: I have already begun drafting documents that may one day serve as our constitution, though it remains to be seen if they will meet with the others' approval.
Bajsaljen: You see, I have chosen to base a number of my writings on the principles of the IVth Legion.
Bajsaljen: Many would argue it is a misguided plan, but I have no intention of doing this in secret. The peoples' trust requires honesty, and I have no intention of repeating the mistakes of our forebears.
Bajsaljen: A great many of us did not hesitate to join the Resistance, some even giving their lives for our cause, but we mustn't forget there were those who chose to remain in the imperial provinces. And though it was a singular instance, Misija was persuaded to join the IVth Legion despite pledging herself to our cause. I cannot help but consider Gabranth's point of view. The philosophy behind his leadership.
Bajsaljen: To discard everything that came as a result of the occupation would cause more harm than good. There are many things introduced by the imperials from which we stand to benefit, and it would be foolish to dismiss them simply because they came from the enemy.
Bajsaljen: Make no mistake─the Bozja I intend to build will be free of discrimination and poverty. A nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. As such, it will require the understanding and cooperation of all.
Bajsaljen: A great deal of blood has been shed that we might come this far, and I pray we never forget, that we may never again have to endure such tragedy.
Bajsaljen: Once a constitution has been ratified and the foundations of our governing body are in place, we will hold an election, that the people may choose officials they believe best represent their ideals.
Bajsaljen: If all goes to plan, the first of many elections will be held within the next two years. When next you visit Bozja, I should think you will be proud to see the nation we have become.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yes, she chose to flee Garlemald and hand over secrets that would result in her former comrades being slain. As a traitor and a saboteur it makes sense for her former allies to be displeased with her - and that's exactly the same reaction that we've seen from the likes of the Eorzean Alliance whenever they have been shown to hunt down traitors and saboteurs. They, too, had their reasons for seeking to flee. In the case of Yotsuyu and Misija, what the Garleans offered was far better than what their former people offered. Another saboteur that springs to mind is 'The Ivy' from way back in ARR.

Ultimately it's all a matter of perspective. There's no real winners or losers in war, history is written by the supposed 'victors' and hypocrisy is ever present on both sides in the pursuit of survival.

I'm not sure where the idea of 'stifling discussion' is coming from. That was not my intention. I merely assume that if people are weighing in on something then it's because they've experienced it already. If I went to go and discuss the latest episode of a TV show, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for me to be expected to have watched it.

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Let's set aside the fact than Garlemald's whole purpose of existence and creator was to be an agent of chaos/sacrificial lamb. The majority of the major Garlean aligned characters are, for lack of a better word, Madmen. Valens, Nael, Varis, Zenos, Yotsuyu, Asahi, etc... Sure we get a couple that break the mold in the form of Gaius and Regula, but the majority are walking war crimes. So claiming any type of grey morality, outside of a few situations, is wishful thinking at best. As for Misijia, much like Yotsuyu, her character and crappy "redemption" arc ruined the story for me. It would have been better to let her skull of been ground to paste beneath the WoL's boot in DR>

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Let's set aside the fact than Garlemald's whole purpose of existence and creator was to be an agent of chaos/sacrificial lamb. The majority of the major Garlean aligned characters are, for lack of a better word, Madmen. Valens, Nael, Varis, Zenos, Yotsuyu, Asahi, etc... Sure we get a couple that break the mold in the form of Gaius and Regula, but the majority are walking war crimes. So claiming any type of grey morality, outside of a few situations, is wishful thinking at best. As for Misijia, much like Yotsuyu, her character and crappy "redemption" arc ruined the story for me. It would have been better to let her skull of been ground to paste beneath the WoL's boot in DR>

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I mean, people seem to forget that the Garleans were literally forced to conquer because they were kicked out of everywhere else. Disregarding that though, it's not as if we and other nations havent committed war crimes. Doma castle flooding? Our mass murdering of various beast tribes etc. It's a war though. As seen in stormblood, both sides do whatever they deem necessary regardless of if its a war crime or not. It just so happens we're on one particular side.It really is just the way war itself is. Again though, if i actually had a choice i would wholeheartedly join the IVth instead of the bozjans in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Let's set aside the fact than Garlemald's whole purpose of existence and creator was to be an agent of chaos/sacrificial lamb.

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Has very little bearing on Gabranth, since he is intending to create a break from the original empire anyhow and do his own thing. So much so, the Bozjan Resistance opts to adopt elements of the 4th Legion's approach into its future regime.

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The majority of the major Garlean aligned characters are, for lack of a better word, Madmen.

Valens, Nael, Varis, Zenos, Yotsuyu, Asahi, etc... Sure we get a couple that break the mold in the form of Gaius and Regula, but the majority are walking war crimes. So claiming any type of grey morality, outside of a few situations, is wishful thinking at best. As for Misijia, much like Yotsuyu, her character and crappy "redemption" arc ruined the story for me. It would have been better to let her skull of been ground to paste beneath the WoL's boot in DR>

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I.e. if they do write them in a way which is conducive to moral greyness, i.e. the sort of writing Matsuno is very capable of (and exhibited in Bozja), it'd "ruin" the story for you, because it doesn't sate your bloodlust.

I'm inclined to think that if the story was 'ruined' by exploring the nuances and horrors of war from both sides of a conflict then the investment and interest was perhaps not there to begin with.

Furthermore, only Valens, Zenos and Asahi were written in such a way as to lack any redeeming qualities or sympathetic motives. The others were far more complicated than many here give credit - or are willing to concede when faced with choosing to take the story as it is written rather than whatever emotional reactions get in the way.

Much like we can see with some of the reactions aimed at Alisae and Alphinaud's father.

Then again, I've never cared much for 'morality' arguments. Especially when the writers themselves are repeatedly on record as stating such things are a matter of perspective and that each character is the hero of their own story.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm inclined to think that if the story was 'ruined' by exploring the nuances and horrors of war from both sides of a conflict then the investment and interest was perhaps not there to begin with.

Furthermore, only Valens, Zenos and Asahi were written in such a way as to lack any redeeming qualities or sympathetic motives. The others were far more complicated than many here give credit - or are willing to concede when faced with choosing to take the story as it is written rather than whatever emotional reactions get in the way.

Much like we can see with some of the reactions aimed at Alisae and Alphinaud's father.

Then again, I've never cared much for 'morality' arguments. Especially when the writers themselves are repeatedly on record as stating such things are a matter of perspective and that each character is the hero of their own story.

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No, it was ruined by the story twisting itself in weird ways in order to make an unlikeable character "sympathetic" or "redeemable". I mean the pieces were set for a trash fire at the end of Castrum in southern front. Literally the most pants on head stupid error was made to make this character a threat, on top of WoL is a dunce in cutscenes syndrome. Then in the follow up, she is practically ruining her trousers in sadistic glee at tempering resistance members. Not to mention gleefully turning others into bioweapons. Then, of course, at the end we get a "they're not all bad!" ending. Garbage. Nothing nuanced, and as someone who enjoys the RTI raid series and XII I was disappointed. Also the IVth aren't saints, as they engage in necromancy and making their own in bioweapons.

I am curious how will Part 3 of FFT/FFXII story handle events of Part 1 and Part 2 if they allow players to jump into it without requiring them to complete Part 1 and Part 2.

My best guess for events of Part 2 since WoL never took part in the battle leading up to how it ended...

Castrum Lacus still fell but it was due to the efforts of the Blades but they still got corrupted.

Bajsaljen, Marsak, and Mikoto complete the events of Delubrum Reginae.

Dalriada is dealt with by Bajsaljen, Marsak, Mikoto and the rest of the resistance. Even Oboro takes part in it as he most likely lead a team to deal with the upper path of Delubrum while the others dealt with the lower path.

While they at times ignore if something has happened yet, I've never known them to take us out of events we were part of before, have they done that before?

The game only assumes you haven't done the events YET, although there are a few dialogue changes depending on your story progression (notably, Estinien's 3 ways when you meet again in 2.55; and Thubyrgeim having I think also 3 different options: either you completed the quest Tataru is currently doing, you didn't unlock ACN, or you unlocked ACN and took the quest but haven't completed the task Tataru is doing). Outright pretending events happened without the WoL is... unprecedented.

My best guess is that, if Dalmasca will feature in Part III; we get a differing line in case the PC didn't do Bozja. Say, Fran acknowledging meeting us in Bozja and saying it was time we helped in Dalmasca if you DID complete it, or... just saying something vague like "I've been hoping you'd meet us in Dalmasca after so long." in case you didn't.

While I wouldn't mind Part III being locked behind completion of Bozja, it'd need some heavy nerfs and reworks to future-proof it, since a player could in theory get through all of Return to Ivalice in less than one day, going from rank 1 to 25 and getting all the people necessary for CLL, DR, and Dal would be... taxing...

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

The game only assumes you haven't done the events YET, although there are a few dialogue changes depending on your story progression (notably, Estinien's 3 ways when you meet again in 2.55; and Thubyrgeim having I think also 3 different options: either you completed the quest Tataru is currently doing, you didn't unlock ACN, or you unlocked ACN and took the quest but haven't completed the task Tataru is doing). Outright pretending events happened without the WoL is... unprecedented.

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It's a slippery thing because although it treats your progress as "not yet", doing that progress later doesn't make it happen later. The Binding Coil is a good example because everything that happened there must happen prior to Alisaie rejoining the MSQ team at level 60. If you're half-done at the time she'll make a reference to that half-finished state of affairs, but if you go back to do the rest later then it's "altering the past" rather than "finishing it now", and if you rewatch the level 60 cutscene then her remarks will have changed.

She won't ever claim she got it sorted out on her own, though, and I think that's an important distinction.

It switches from getting partway through it with you to all the way through it with you, not from doing it without you to doing it with you. The player's progress is central to it.

If the MSQ is going to reference Bozja I would expect a passing line about it being a war front or a liberated state according to what you've done, and possibly we might see characters whose personality is much the same from start to finish (so it doesn't matter what you have or haven't done yet), but I can't see them bringing in any characters or locations whose situation has changed as a result of the battle.

If the story is going to continue, I would expect a further side story, possibly with some boosts to Bozja levelling so it's not hard to get through it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean, people seem to forget that the Garleans were literally forced to conquer because they were kicked out of everywhere else. Disregarding that though, it's not as if we and other nations havent committed war crimes. Doma castle flooding? Our mass murdering of various beast tribes etc. It's a war though. As seen in stormblood, both sides do whatever they deem necessary regardless of if its a war crime or not. It just so happens we're on one particular side.It really is just the way war itself is. Again though, if i actually had a choice i would wholeheartedly join the IVth instead of the bozjans in a heartbeat.

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When people have talked about war crimes in this thread, they've constantly shown that they are applying real world war ethics to a fantasy setting/setting that is medieval. There were no such stipulations on combat in the older eras, and our morals don't carry over there. That and people are also showing that they are not entirely cognizant as to what constitutes war crimes.

The flooding of Doma Castle wasn't a war crime in any sense.

Also it's relevant to note that usually what constitutes war crimes for a long time were decided by nations already exercising excessive military power and presence. They're usually brought about post war as a way of punishing the losing side further. All while the winning side reaps in deals made so that leaders can avoid prison/execution.

Also it's laughable that you're asserting the Garleans were "forced" to conquer. They were forced alright, but not just because they were pushed around by the magical races. They were given the means to conquer, and they had their old grudges stoked. But even if we paint them as victims of exploitation, they still murdered hundreds of thousands, used chemical warfare, and did human biomechanical experimentation. Really without cessation for almost a century. And I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

What makes our side right in this war is that the Bozjans/Eorzeans/Nagxians/Domans don't do that kinda crap, and they're resolved to put an end to it. The IVth, however good Gabranth's envisioned utopia is, is still using all means dastardly to try to bring it to fruition. Even if they succeeded in defeating the Bozjans, and then went on to found his ideal nation, it'd fall apart at the seams due to the vast gulf between its founder's vision and the reality of how it came to his hand. I'd never want to be part of something like that.

I like the quote with the part about everyone being their hero more as "Nobody's the villain in their own story". Valen and even Asahi wont see themselves as the villains of their own story too. The question is imo not if the people see themselves as a hero or not, the question is, how others see them.

Of course that might be more difficult to judge in certain situations and of course in war there is often the case that the winner will try to show themselves as THE heroes. The question is, how are the others truly seeing them? What did they do to achieve that? I mean even in the real world it happens that the winning side will punish some of their own because they committed war crimes.

I am not sure that most Garlean people saw Zenos as a hero, no matter how many battles he won. They probably saw him as a monster. Yet in his view he might see himself as the one being right, after all the others just had to defeat him. Its their fault that they died and thus lose.

I am honestly really curious, how many of the Ancients would see the actions of the Ascians as heroic. How many of those that willingly sacrificed themselves would be happy with what the Asicans are doing?

Gaius too is another example. He may have finally understood that he was not the hero that he thought he was. He may have realized what he had truly done. And even though he is a proud Garlear he still saw that the actions of certain other garlean people are morally bad. He was so shocked when he learned what some where doing.

So for me even if everyone sees themselves as the heroes of their own story they can still do morally wrong things and be judged for them. Of course what counts as morally wrong depends on the story too. If we had one where the world accepts that someone is killed for the smallest of crimes then doing that would not be morally wrong for them.

FF14 has its own moral code. Maybe it changes a bit depending on the countries but there still should be one, after all they have a punishment system for crimes and someone doing something absolutely nasty does get a reaction from a lot of NPCs too.

But those are just my few cents on that.

Edit:

Also for me nuanced or morally grey characters cant exist without judging all characters with the same criterias. After all if someone is seen as morally grey they need to have done something that makes them that. They had to have done something that makes them neither completely good or bad. But to judge that you will have to give actions morality.

For example why is Zenos evil? There has to be a moral compass that says that what he does is evil.