MSQ Needs Further Condensing

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If there is any kind of accusatory remark, the mods here will ban you. It is VERY difficult to have a proper conversation here.

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Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

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That's why I am 99% sure I'm getting reported constantly. Maybe you can guess why I can be so antagonistic sometimes.. It's not even just me who has been banned for slander, I know, not know of, I KNOW (seen their email) I am not a unique case at all. Others here have also been banned for slander, for what probably you, and definitely not I would consider "slander", at all.. I know someone who recently was banned for "slander", literally just a few weeks ago.

I'm being completely serious here. The mods can ban you for nearly anything if they want to. Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but God. I don't know maybe I just got needlessly paranoid, but the way tensions are in this thread, I feel like there are people here right now constantly reporting. This is why I don't chat in-game either. And speaking of that I HATE how people just assume that just means I want to be a jerk or something. I am actually very nice in reality, forum persona or discord chat besides the point. I give people the benefit of the doubt more often than I should. I can barely even say no, so on the occasion I do do group content I get roped into doing things for hours that I actually don't want to do. Like in borzja recently, apparently I am now a go to for running parties, I don't even want to.. No that any of this has to do with the thread, so I digress..

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either. I think instead of cuts maybe, they could streamline it. As in, structure quests differently, so there is a mainline story, and other "main", but optional stories too. Maybe, and I am just freestyling this idea, they could encourage people to do the whole story, exp, etc. but not make it all mandatory. No cuts, always there. Maybe the structure and storytelling don't support this idea, but it's just an idea. There is no want from me to destroy it, I like the story, quite a bit. I've joked over discord that if people here only knew how much I actually liked the story, I'd be called out so fast..

Here's an old post of mine, something that might actually surprise people. For context:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I thought the Shadowbringers story was fantastic, I was enthralled from day 1. Completely invested. I read every line of dialogue, talked to the npcs before turning in/accepting/inbetween a quest (just talk - not a quest requirement). Some cliches are fine, and can make a story fun at times. The writing was overall top tier, it was great. I love that we had our old cast of characters from ARR throughout - Urianger getting the screen time he desperately deserved. This story had everything you could want in a good story, and Yoshida was not kidding when he said it was equivalent to a full single player rpg experience, it is. I took my time, and I am glad I did.

I particularly like Zenos as a character, and I am very happy to see him returning. Ardbert was a great addition, and I loved our interactions.

The areas were interesting, and nostalgic, the story dungeons are probably the best we have had, overall carried by their boss mechanics and design (aside from the first one which was a bit dull - bosses, again, made up for it).

My jaw literally dropped when I discovered the recreation of the Ascian city. It was amazing.

I have not played anything but a dancer, and I quite like it. I will have to level up my other major classes and roles before I can give an opinion on that. Nor have I completed any actual endgame content, I will have to do that as well. I may write a review for this expansion when I gather my thoughts, and finish up with it. I don't have this game on Steam, so unfortunately I don't think I can write it there. :( Not like anyone would read it anyway.

Almost forgot, music. Here is where I do not agree with people who say it was top notch. I thought the tracks themselves were great, for the most part, but the timing was awkward in many areas. Sometimes it was jarring.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either.

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I don't doubt it. You've said as much before. I also don't doubt you know what you're talking about.

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to. You kinda just got swept up alongside them because you happened to be defending the same side. I'm not really saying that's right, at all, but you also have to recognize people not nearly as well-informed or well-intentioned as you have been posting in here as well.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to.

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I never saw anyone actually refute that. This is literally just what I was talking about.. Are you really sure these people were arguing in bad faith?

I don't know about $115 exactly, but if a player can't get past the story at the very least what they spent on the game is down the drain. If someone wants to play with their friends, have a full kit available, or just simply have most content unlocked. They will have to buy the game for one, a story skip, and a level boost. At full price, this is what that looks like: ("just buy a skip")

https://i.imgur.com/vDL7Wc0.png
If that comes with a sub that is $110, nearly that $115. That is a lot of money..

I'm just not convinced anyone actually refuted that. :confused: If a player can't get through the story, really the only other option is to give SE large amounts of money. OR we go back to "game is just not for them". Also, please don't tell me they can skip the level boost. The leveling grind might as well be as bad as the story grind, and this time they would have no story to boost them. It would be dumb for anyone to buy a story skip, but not level boost, in my opinion. There's a reason I still haven't gotten all my combat classes to 80.. it takes a long time..

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I never saw anyone actually refute that.

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Uh-huh.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

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Read from this point on and you'll see why the person who I was talking about didn't have a clue as to what parts of the story are and are not filler.

If you want someone who actually bothered with the effort of research, here is a much better breakdown.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

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This one is going to take a bit of time to digest.

I'm not bringing up mine or my friend (who is not imaginary, thanks) because we are more of an authority than you are. No, I'm bringing us up because I want to point out how little of an authority people's friends actually make. I have two examples of people who thoroughly enjoyed the story and keep/kept playing for it. My 65 days before ShB was not only spent on story, but also all optional raid content and beast tribes because I wanted to squeeze out every little bit of lore and storytelling this game has/had to offer. Am I extreme in that regard? Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

I even outlined this in a previous post, where I use similar examples, to explain this very point.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

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All I'm going to say is that just because you are personally blind to the discussion that has already gone on in this thread, doesn't mean that discussion hasn't happened. Just because you may think your own arguments are rock solid, doesn't mean the arguments of others have been as well.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Uh-huh.

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Yeah, exactly as I said. I never saw anyone actually refute that point. I'm not being mean either. I just don't think that post refutes anything, when it comes to price. It comes up with ways of supposedly alleviating the sunk cost. Like said in my post, it would be dumb to buy a story skip, and no level boost. You either buy both or none at all, as a new player. $60 is sunk cost if the player cannot get through the story.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Read from this point on and you'll see why the person who I was talking about didn't have a clue as to what parts of the story are and are not filler.
If you want someone who actually bothered with the effort of research, here is a much better breakdown.

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And? They may consider it filler, you might not. Doesn't mean their argument is in bad faith. called discussion for a reason.

I did say I didn't care for cuts didn't I?

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

This one is going to take a bit of time to digest.

I'm not bringing up mine or my friend (who is not imaginary, thanks) because we are more of an authority than you are. No, I'm bringing us up because I want to point out how little of an authority people's friends actually make. I have two examples of people who thoroughly enjoyed the story and keep/kept playing for it. My 65 days before ShB was not only spent on story, but also all optional raid content and beast tribes because I wanted to squeeze out every little bit of lore and storytelling this game has/had to offer. Am I extreme in that regard? Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

I even outlined this in a previous post, where I use similar examples, to explain this very point.

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If anything, you saying you spent so much time before even starting ShB strenghtens MY argument. People may not like the story, but there is plenty of other content for players to find and do! The game could be for them! If only they could just get there!

I was literally referring to myself, and my imaginary friend. Not you.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

All I'm going to say is that just because you are personally blind to the discussion that has already gone on in this thread, doesn't mean that discussion hasn't happened. Just because you may think your own arguments are rock solid, doesn't mean the arguments of others have been as well.

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Are you stating that I am blind to the discussion that has gone on? Because I can tell you, I'm not. I was aware of those posts. I just didn't consider them to have actually included anything relevant, or as bad faith arguments intent on the destruction of this game for it's players, or whatever ridiculous thing that has been said.

Remember "my opinion"?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If anything, you saying you spent so much time before even starting ShB strenghtens MY argument. People may not like the story, but there is plenty of other content for players to find and do! The game could be for them! If only they could just get there!

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Does it? Because I chose to stay behind on story, to not get caught up to endgame, because I wanted to do all this old content first. And it doesn't take very long to get there at all.

Its been like, what, two weeks? And Ysera is like halfway stormblood, keeping in mind she doesn't play every day?

I'm not sure its that much of a hassle getting anywhere in this game, and my personal story doesn't seem to strengthen your argument.

It didn't take me 65 days because it requires 65 days to get to ShB.

It took me 65 days because the MSQ wasn't even an issue as I had so much stuff to do on the side that I didn't even have the time to continue the main story.

But yes, tell me more about how the MSQ is too long and gates people. I'd love to hear about how the week it takes to get to Alexander raids, if you even care to do it, while watching the cutscenes, is such a massive slog.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Does it? Because I chose to stay behind on story, to not get caught up to endgame, because I wanted to do all this old content first. And it doesn't take very long to get there at all.

Its been like, what, two weeks? And Ysera is like halfway stormblood, keeping in mind she doesn't play every day?

I'm not sure its that much of a hassle getting anywhere in this game, and my personal story doesn't seem to strengthen your argument.

It didn't take me 65 days because it requires 65 days to get to ShB.

It took me 65 days because the MSQ wasn't even an issue as I had so much stuff to do on the side that I didn't even have the time to continue the main story.

But yes, tell me more about how the MSQ is too long and gates people. I'd love to hear about how the week it takes to get to Alexander raids, if you even care to do it, while watching the cutscenes, is such a massive slog.

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Exactly! You found stuff you like! Maybe others who don't like the MSQ can find other stuff at endgame, with their full kit, they like! Everyone wins! They can find 65 days of fun, without that story! Yes, that content could be in Shadowbringers!

Not worth wasting more posts today. I'm done here for now.

Not gonna waste another post, like I said, but I will add, now looking below: I tend to post things in general. This wasn't an argument, it was a statement. Though it may sound sarcastic, I was serious. I think people can find a lot of fun despite the story, and story skips are a bandaid.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Exactly! You found stuff you like! Maybe others who don't like the MSQ can find other stuff at endgame, with their full kit, they like! Everyone wins! They can find 65 days of fun, without that story! Yes, that content could be in Shadowbringers!

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Ahem.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Skips pretty much are the only compromise, to my mind. I agree with the "one free skip" for a new account idea, for what it's worth.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Also, I don't think skipping the story is an invalid way to play. Not everyone's going to care and that's alright. Thing is, while I don't force my "you should watch the story" viewpoint on you by making cutscenes mandatory or something to that effect, neither should you be forcing the "who cares about the story" viewpoint by trying to hamstring the experience for others

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

I still don't see why you can't do any of what you're suggesting here on your main with the friend. My synced comment was more in reference to how you seemed to want to be on an equal playing field with someone you reccommend the game to, but again, they would be having to go through the MSQ anyway and doing it at the same time keeps you on-pace. In fact, I'd argue you'd be helping them "get to semi relevant content" a lot faster by just using your main than you would by starting up an alt for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

I'm playing through with a newbie friend right now and I don't have any problems syncing down my level 80 DRK to help them out with duties and FATEs. You don't need an alt to do content with a friend, and if you did want to do content at the same time, I'm not sure why you'd want to skip the MSQ...? The MSQ would be what keeps you at equal levels.

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But yeah, I guess my viewpoint isn't consistent with that exact mentality you're having.

Not only have I said, not one page ago, that I wouldn't mind a fresh account having the option to have their first character to skip straight to Shadowbringers (in case of the very person you're describing) but also I don't think cutscene-skipping the MSQ is that much of a problem. My FC leader, Inara Yuki, has watched exactly two sets of cutscenes:

Castrum and Praetorium.

I have a literal story skipper as the leader of my FC and you don't see me opposing her, yeah?

There are plenty of options in the game already for people who want to join others at endgame. I'd even help you advocate for adding another one specifically for the type of person who couldn't care to do anything else. Do not sit here and tell me I don't get your point, Sturmchurro. You seem to be the one here shutting out other viewpoints, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Patch MSQ is a problem.

When you are at the end, patched MSQ is really welcome and enjoyable.

When you are behind and blasting through the expansions, patch MSQ is an inconvenience and makes it a slog.

They need to provide content that people at the endgame can enjoy, while being skippable or something to come back to for people who just want to progress.

Not saying they shouldn’t have MSQ but a lot of the patch stuff is filler. 5.4 for example, besides the closing scenes you aren’t missing much of the overall story if you don’t do it. There’s no reason the limsa stuff couldn’t have been additional sidequest content as at least currently it appears only to add extra context to things rather than be a crucial addition to the story.

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5.4 was filler? Finding the cure for tempering and trying solving Eorzea's major problem by coming together with the beast tribes was filler?

Are we playing the same game?

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Originally Posted by Taikugemu

5.4 was filler? Finding the cure for tempering and trying solving Eorzea's major problem by coming together with the beast tribes was filler?

Are we playing the same game?

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I wanted to say the same thing, but thinking about it further, a major part of the 5.4 Limsa quest is about pirates and how they are impacted by the current situation with Garlemald.
It also provided a bit of character development for Merlwyb, which I am not sure was really needed for the main scenario yet, as much as I liked getting it...
I think this is what made it feel like 'filler' to some people, not the cure for tempering itself.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I wanted to say the same thing, but thinking about it further, a major part of the 5.4 Limsa quest is about pirates and how they are impacted by the current situation with Garlemald.
It also provided a bit of character development for Merlwyb, which I am not sure was really needed for the main scenario yet, as much as I liked getting it...
I think this is what made it feel like 'filler' to some people, not the cure for tempering itself.

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I'm not sure it's really a "major" part at all.

It uses that small substory to bridge "We have a cure" and "We apply the cure on Kobolds" to make way for the peace between beast tribes and Eorzea. That, and Limsa has always been the aggressor in their particular feuds. It needed to get over that hurdle first. The conflict between how pirates used to live and live now is all of two cutscenes, the rest is spent on how the one pirate crew raided kobolds and how we can use this to our advantage to lure them into a trap.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

The condensing of the MSQ by Square Enix is greatly appreciated, but it is not enough.

With ARR, HW, SB, and ShB, it is getting quite lengthy, even with the reduction.

The game suffers greatly from trying to be both an MMORPG, and single player story focused RPG.

The fact is this game is an MMORPG, with a large focus on end-game content, that being trials, raids, gearing, ect.

The game should not be putting new players in a state of perpetual catch-up, having to choose between skipping all of the cutscenes, and missing all of the story, just to play with their friends, and not be dead-weight, or taking their time, and spending an eternity going through the now-slog of a narrative.

To Square Enix, I ask: What is the length at which you will consider the content gap 'too large'?

If, Square Enix, you intend to preserve the JRPG style narrative, will you set a standard of time for a fresh character to go from 1-80 or 1-90?


Possible Solution Proposal


Introduce a new metric: Time-To-Cap (TTC) (Level 1 to max level)

Standardize the time is takes to reach level cap.

Apply this to every expansion that increases the level cap.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing, and cutscenes (perhaps still frames, with narration) bridging the gaps.

Of course, this should be OPTIONAL, thus allowing players to level in the manner of which they choose.

Unabridged, and abridged.

The Unabridged MSQ condensing nothing. The Abridged MSQ always conforming to the standardized TTC.


Best Wishes

-Reyketi :)

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The MSQ doesn't anymore condensing. Seriously, its fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Malia_Chan

The MSQ doesn't anymore condensing. Seriously, its fine as is.

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I don't think so.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime

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99.9% of gamers are not going to want to do that.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

99.9% of gamers are not going to want to do that.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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And 84% of statistics are pulled out of thin air.

Also please tell me at which point I generalize and extrapolate my experience as being emblematic of everyone who plays. I'd love to get that quote.

It's like you're *trying* to ignore the point that everyone plays games differently and that one idea won't be representative of the playerbase at large *because* of those differences.

As someone brand new to the game going through all of this right now, I can tell you the game feels like a slog. The story eventually gets good, but the constant run here, talk to someone, run here, talk to another person and repeat that until end game isn't very enjoyable. It doesn't even feel like a Final Fantasy game. At least in other Final Fantasy games, there was game play between story. Besides the random duty, you really are in cut scene mode for 250 hours.

Now I enjoy the game and don't plan on quitting. My only problem is I've met people on other Data Centers, and would like to roll another character on their center, but seriously can't stomach going through these MSQ's and this story again. Once is enough for a life time. I also don't believe the solution should be give them more money than simply them providing a system that if you have any characters on any data center that has completed the MSQ's, you should be able to automatically have completed the MSQ on that account on any new character. Don't care about starting at level 1. I don't need to do another 250+ hours of content I've already done, just to play on another center.

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Originally Posted by Shanst

I also don't believe the solution should be give them more money than simply them providing a system that if you have any characters on any data center that has completed the MSQ's, you should be able to automatically have completed the MSQ on that account on any new character. Don't care about starting at level 1. I don't need to do another 250+ hours of content I've already done, just to play on another center.

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I don't know of any MMO that allows you to create a new character on a different data center/realm/world and 'skip' the leveling experience automatically.

[If you pay an extra $20-$40USD for the new WoW expansion it includes one level boost you can use it for a new character. But you spent extra for it, so ...]

You want to play with new friends on another data center, but not start at level 1? Get a world transfer.

You want to start another character but don't want to start from level 1? Get a story+job skip to current expansion starting level.

The alternative to spending the money (which is not even possible in many other games), is to spend the time.

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It doesn't even feel like a Final Fantasy game.

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The Devs, and community should take opinions like yours into consideration, imo.

The people who are against the MSQ being condensed further will commonly retort with "this is a FF game!" but I don't remember a FF game taking 250 boring hours to complete.

I'm not sure what you're into, as it relates to MMORPGs, but I really love the endgame of FF14. I'd give it a chance.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

The Devs, and community should take opinions like yours into consideration, imo.

The people who are against the MSQ being condensed further will commonly retort with "this is a FF game!" but I don't remember a FF game taking 250 boring hours to complete.

I'm not sure what you're into, as it relates to MMORPGs, but I really love the endgame of FF14. I'd give it a chance.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Yeah, this is more like 4 final fantasy games each taking 60 hours to complete.

And boring is subjective. I enjoyed every minute of the story.

Definitely 1000% no. Users pay money for this game. Removing content is removing what we pay for. Length is not an issue. The longer the content, the more you get what you pay for. The issue is quality. Removing content that was previously there in order to streamline things is not a very good solution. As some users have mentioned some of the content that was removed was quite good and important. What should have been done is to take a look at the content, and polish it. Whether keeping the length of the content or not, as long as it's an improvement in quality is what is important. The quality of the campaign has absolutely nothing to do with catching up. Specific users who want to catch up to friends should not be catered to in a way that affects the general user base who want to play an enjoyable campaign without caring about end game.

For late gamers or those who just want to skip the main content to catch up to higher friends, there are methods available for doing so. And maybe does need improvement. But for the general user base, larger amount of quests of good quality = more value for what you pay for. And definitely should not be removed or streamlined to cater to late gamers who are more concerned with end game content. What needs to actually be improved is quality of the content progressing towards late game. And cutting/reducing it is definitely not necessarily an improvement. But can screw the game overall even more.

How about we get rid of the end game grinds and keep the story?

Just sayin. Not everyone is playing just to get to end game so they can run the same content grinds ad infinitum.

You'll take your Allegan Tomestones of Plotdevicery and like it.

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Length is not an issue.

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Maybe not to you, but to SE's bank account, it obviously is.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

Maybe not to you, but to SE's bank account, it obviously is.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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If you want to be taken seriously, you might want to actually address people's arguments. Y'know, instead of taking out a small snippet, plastering on a snarky comment and then pretending like you have a point.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

If you want to be taken seriously, you might want to actually address people's arguments. Y'know, instead of taking out a small snippet, plastering on a snarky comment and then pretending like you have a point.

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I do have a point.

You can't say

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Length is not an issue.

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when, to SE, and their customer base, it is.

If the MSQ length were not an issue, it would not have been altered.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

I do have a point.

You can't say when, to SE, and their customer base, it is.

If the MSQ length were not an issue, it would not have been altered.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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Only 1 subset of the quests was altered. Therefore, the rest of the story length is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

If the MSQ length were not an issue, it would not have been altered.

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Ahem.

Still haven't seen you actually properly respond to this post which goes through literally any and every argument you've posted in this thread, shows why they're wrong and does it without snark.

Here, I'll even snip out the section that undermines the foundation of your point:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The edits made to ARR and post-ARR are their oldest and most notoriously grindy part of the whole game. Older players routinely warned newbies that "the grind through post-ARR is terrible but it gets better in the expansions". The patch quests were designed to be time-fillers that often didn't drive the story forward.

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Literally everyone and their mother- even the absolute diehards- could agree on one thing: Post-ARR sucked and still kinda sucks. Nobody ever argued otherwise, and yes, that was a good bit to cut down on.

It's also universally seen as pretty much the only content in the game that was deliberately designed to waste our time.

But not only this, there was another reason for cutting down on it.

Crystal Tower is mandatory and added playtime.

Crystal tower is not just a side story anymore- you need to clear it to be able to progress the main quest. Do you know what that means? Another couple hours of cutscenes, dialogue and gameplay added on top. In other to streamline that experience, post-ARR being cut down to not include as much blatant filler would keep the amount of time you needed to go through that section at roughly the same point.

But sure, the game is too long in general! Nevermind the fact we were and still are stuck at level 50 forever, one of the longest walls in the game, which has a much shorter and smoother transition period come the next few expansions.

But yeah no let's extrapolate this one extreme, isolated case of bad design of the same era that got us the infamous praetorium to the entire game, including content made in 2020, as if the dev team are still repeating the exact same mistakes. Y'know, the same mistakes like making Coils of Bahamut super hard to the point you can't add it to a roulette, meaning players can easily miss it, yet it's super important lore for closure on the shutdown of 1.0 and Bahamut.

The team has already recognized post-ARR was a mistake and deliberately worked to avoid those in future expansions. You cannot compare them. To do so is to be blatantly disingenuous. But I'm sure you knew that already, right? It's easier to spin a narrative when you

keep it to a short few lines

full of witty comebacks

and then sign off!

Best wishes,

-Ammokkx

if this game goes the way of world of warcraft where we 1000 hour grind so we can do 5 minute parses on a loop and solve for best class on a spread sheet im out

I prefer a game where what I'm doing in the moment is supposed to be fun, rather than simply chasing an ever moving carrot in the distance, telling myself that maybe when I reach the "end" of the next content release I'll finally be happy. lol to that

OP I hope next expansion they double the amount of cutscenes, just for you

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

if this game goes the way of world of warcraft where we 1000 hour grind so we can do 5 minute parses on a loop and solve for best class on a spread sheet im out

I prefer a game where what I'm doing in the moment is supposed to be fun, rather than simply chasing an ever moving carrot in the distance, telling myself that maybe when I reach the "end" of the next content release I'll finally be happy. lol to that

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Honestly, there are some things that could still be condensed, especially in ARR. Nothing major or game breaking though, just some small things. I don't envy those who have yet to go through ARR's post launch MSQ content because 90% of it is filler and ultimately pointless to the overarching narrative.

I am not sure that you have any grasp of my stance. So, I'll summarize it for you.

The MSQ was condensed, and SE is soon to release another expansion, adding more content to the already lengthy, and mandatory, MSQ.

The addition of this expansion is going to undo the progress they made on reducing the length of the MSQ.

At a certain point, this process of going through the mandatory MSQ becomes unreasonable excessive. Or, in Blizzard's case, the leveling process, which they overhauled their entire game to remedy.

I understand that you, or others might enjoy playing a 500 hour game, but not everyone has the time for that, some might not be all that interested in the MSQ, which turns them off from the game.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

Then they can play other games. Not everyone has to like this one. Not every game has to cater to every player.

I certainly don't go to Lol or Overwatch forums demanding they remove the pvp aspect of their games and make them coop pve games to suit my tastes.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

I understand that you, or others might enjoy playing a 500 hour game, but not everyone has the time for that, some might not be all that interested in the MSQ, which turns them off from the game.

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This is why there are multiple MMOs out there. If you don't like the MSQ, you can find one that doesn't pay any attention to story, if it'll make you happier.

There is no Law out there that says "You can only play one MMO". Get your kicks for story from FFXIV, get your kicks for PvP from any number of MMOs that encourage that style of play, get your kicks for dungeon running 24x7 from others that encourage that style of play.

There's a bunch of choices out there. Explore them all until you find the one that fits you.

Just don't expect the publishers of this game to change the basic fundamentals. You'll be disappointed.

That's still pretty much my take as well.

Do I like the story? Absolutely! Do I think it's all in general worth experiencing? Yes! I've personally even enjoyed a lot of ARR and Stormblood, which a lot of even the biggest FF14 fans are occasionally down on.

But, at some point, something does have to give. Even if the story is amazing, when your ask for a new a player is for them to spend 500 hours just to get to the current storyline that everyone is raving about as being the best thing ever, it's just too much. So the option then becomes do you just ask them to skip the story via skip pot and potentially not experience it at all (and incur an extra expense just to do so) OR you condense the story in some way to make the 500 hours more easily consumable.

I don't think there is a perfect answer here but I think it's worth considering, if you do love the story as much as you claim you do, then which would you really prefer? People skipping it entirely (or rushing through it as fast as possible by skipping every cutscene and rushing through all dialogue) or being able to experience it all in a more digestable manner?

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I don't think there is a perfect answer here but I think it's worth considering, if you do love the story as much as you claim you do, then which would you really prefer? People skipping it entirely (or rushing through it as fast as possible by skipping every cutscene and rushing through all dialogue) or being able to experience it all in a more digestable manner?

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From a different perspective - do you encourage your friends to skip the first six seasons of an anime just so they can get to the 'best season'? Heaven help you if you ever pick up Hunter x Hunter or One Piece as a series after your friends have been watching it for 100/700 episodes respectively.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

I understand that you, or others might enjoy playing a 500 hour game, but not everyone has the time for that, some might not be all that interested in the MSQ, which turns them off from the game.

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During cutscene, press escape, hit yes.


Ultimately I think the crux of your argument is that content under max level doesn't matter or shouldn't matter, in favor of what I assume is the parsing-for-lootboxes upgrade roulette end-game content represents. I suppose if that's what you're after I would have to recommend playing Microsoft Excel. Strips out everything you clearly don't like in MMOs - no levelling, no MSQ, no other players to distract you from Progression, no music to mute, no delays between fights, and you can set the difficulty as high as you want.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

I am not sure that you have any grasp of my stance. So, I'll summarize it for you.

The MSQ was condensed, and SE is soon to release another expansion, adding more content to the already lengthy, and mandatory, MSQ.

The addition of this expansion is going to undo the progress they made on reducing the length of the MSQ.

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I understand your stance but I think you are misunderstanding SE's reasoning for reducing the length of the MSQ.

They are not trying to keep the overall length of MSQ from 1 to 80 at some arbitrary maximum where to put more MSQ in, they need to shorten it somewhere else. They are shortening a specific and notoriously dull section of the MSQ to be more enjoyable.

Adding more MSQ in 5.5 and beyond does not "undo" the fact that post-ARR MSQ is now shorter than it used to be.

Perhaps the problem is that you seem to be viewing the story as some monolithic lump of an obstacle to reaching the endgame and all that matters is the length of it, which simply isn't the case. It is a serialised, chaptered story and there will always be more chapters being added to it. It isn't designed to be kept at a fixed length.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I don't think there is a perfect answer here but I think it's worth considering, if you do love the story as much as you claim you do, then which would you really prefer? People skipping it entirely (or rushing through it as fast as possible by skipping every cutscene and rushing through all dialogue) or being able to experience it all in a more digestable manner?

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The thing is, making the story "shorter and more digestable" by cutting bits out of it is potentially detrimental to what makes it enjoyable in the first place - especially if you're talking about cutting out entire chunks of the narrative and discarding them as unimportant.

And no, I don't think that it's more important for "everyone" to enjoy it in a shortened format than that the people who like it in its current format can continue to see the whole thing. If I don't like a game or story, I just don't play or watch it, and leave it to be enjoyed by the people who do.

I've written before that there are definitely places in which the overall playtime of the expansions could be tightened up by removing busywork tasks or moving them to sidequests, but I don't think that the answer is taking away parts of the story to appease people who didn't like the story in the first place. Even the apparently-necessary changes to ARR have pulled out at least one part of the story I actually liked - while I haven't played the whole thing to see what's been done, I've heard that the lead-up to Ramuh (with the sylphs playing pranks and transforming into copies of the Scions) has been glossed over with a sentence or two of dialogue. That part was funny, especially if you took the time to speak to the characters between objectives, and now it's just gone.

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Originally Posted by Reyketi

I am not sure that you have any grasp of my stance. So, I'll summarize it for you.

The MSQ was condensed, and SE is soon to release another expansion, adding more content to the already lengthy, and mandatory, MSQ.

The addition of this expansion is going to undo the progress they made on reducing the length of the MSQ.

At a certain point, this process of going through the mandatory MSQ becomes unreasonable excessive. Or, in Blizzard's case, the leveling process, which they overhauled their entire game to remedy.

I understand that you, or others might enjoy playing a 500 hour game, but not everyone has the time for that, some might not be all that interested in the MSQ, which turns them off from the game.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

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First off, this is not a reply to arguments. This is just you stating your stance with no evidence again. You have made it abundantly clear what you think. We disagree. Now start replying to us in earnest if you actually want us to be convinced you have a point and that you're not just some raving madman rocking back-and-forth in a restraint jacket muttering "condense msq... condense msq... condense msq..." to themselves over and over again.

Second, as Iscah has pointed out, the MSQ is not one whole. It is 4-8 chunks, depending on how you view it, which have been chained together to form one whole. It is like reading a serialized book series. You don't just randomly start cutting out chapters of a book because the entire series has become too long of a read.

I have also pointed out before that there is very little you can change in the MSQ without affecting the integrity of the storyline. At most you can make a few more quest tasks streamlined, or take out a grand total of maybe 5 quests, in an expansion. That isn't going to magically make the MSQ an arbitrary number of hours like you seem to wish it will. Even if they did that, it is an immense amount of work to go back and do this literally every time a new expansion comes out. Is that payoff worth it to SE? You seem to argue "yeah, obviously" but if it was so obvious then why haven't they done so in full yet? Why have they only briefly and delicately touched select parts of the game and not the expansions as a whole?

Let me give you a hint.

Because an isolated part of the game was a problem case and not the game as a whole. People drop off at 50 not because they can't get to endgame, but because level 50 is boring as all hell compared to what comes after.

And also, I understand that you, or others, might not enjoy playing a "500 hour game" as you put it (which lol I've put far more hours into this game than that on everything but the MSQ) but that begs the question...

Who's experience is more valid? Yours or mine? Who, of us two, should SE listen to and cater to?

Neither. Neither is the answer. They should stick to their core philosophy when designing this game, extremely carefully consider any feedback from the community, and keep going on mostly the same waters they've charted so far.

Why, you may ask? Because that's what's currently gotten them an ever-growing MMO with success comparable to WoW's monolithic status. FFXIV is an absolutely beloved game by those who play it and for some, yes, I'm sorry to say, it's because of the 666 hours of story content. Not for all of us, certainly not for you. But clearly for enough people that they think it worthwhile to add more high-quality story each expansion, and certainly enough for the lead writer of Shadowbringers to get a standing ovation merely for mentioning the fact she was the lead writer of Shadowbringers.

But go on, please, do go on, about how most players don't care about the story. I'd love to see the statistics you have to back this up. So far you've only been picking out choice quotes from the odd person hopping into this thread saying "i agree with you reyketi!" when people who are against it outnumber you at least three-to-one, if not more. First page says this too: Your post has only about a third of the likes of TaleraRistain's post. People are disagreeing with you en masse and yet you're still pushing your stance as being the correct one for a majority of the playerbase, when the majority of the playerbase seems to want the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

Now, here's the million dollar question: Are you actually going to address the foundation of my points as I have done for yours, or are you going to continue ignoring my arguments in favor of pushing your one narrow view despite everyone telling you you're wrong and finding new ways to do so? Because if there is one thing I'm tired of, it's people making unsubstantiated claims from an ego-centric perspective that they claim is representative for other people when all they're doing is going "My way or the highway."

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Now, here's the million dollar question: Are you actually going to address the foundation of my points as I have done for yours, or are you going to continue ignoring my arguments in favor of pushing your one narrow view despite everyone telling you you're wrong and finding new ways to do so? Because if there is one thing I'm tired of, it's people making unsubstantiated claims from an ego-centric perspective that they claim is representative for other people when all they're doing is going "My way or the highway."

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their lack of actual arguments throughout the whole thread should have made it obvious that they're just a troll who periodically bumps his own thread with the same post to get people to respond to them

best wishes

-rinh