Shadowbringers starting to feel like a budget expansion

If we are between grinding and nothing at all then I prefer grinding.
Having absolutely nothing to do is not the answer to grinding.
I'm bracing for a long dead drought period in XIV.
5.2 and 5.25 brought nothing and the next patch is delayed by a month.
That's very bad.

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started out players on such a sour note that upon realizing the level of GRIND it took just to go up a few levels many casuals turned their nose up at it and never came back

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Anemos was pretty well received, especially early on, when it was more "make groups and kill stuff" and not sit around in a pile just doing NM's. This was helped because it was the single best place to get multiple things accomplished.

Pagos, on the other hand... Pagos was awful for the first couple months and didnt really take off for most people until the second wave of light nerfs and large challenge log xp bump.

Even if I think the patches were decent. I think most resources of the team has been going towards the ARR rework. Because I think people might forgot that it is actually coming in 5.3. So who knows, maybe after that they have more resources to work on more content.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

This is a common yet completely out of context whine I see.

In SB they gave us Eureka Anemos ... which (regardless of Eureka eventually turning into the best bit of Social combat content added to this game IMHO) started out players on such a sour note that upon realizing the level of GRIND it took just to go up a few levels many casuals turned their nose up at it and never came back, content with just whining about how they don't get a relic this expac. No matter the nerfs which made anemos decent, not matter how much praise the 3rd and 4th zones got after SE found out how to make it actually fun, no matter the rewards ... MANY casuals just never came back because of that first impression. And because they never wanted to come back people whined that they didn't like that new mounts and hair styles were locked behind it cause god forbid SE actually reward people for doing time-sink content.

So what's happening now? We have a relic story that's connected to events in the MSQ. We have an engaging, interesting story featuring a cast of known characters, lore behind a new race, an EX encounter and such. Way more welcoming than Anemos. What's coming next? We have some kinda eureka like exploration zone coming next with the option to grind your shiny weapon out without touching it apparently according to the devs. IDK why people can't appreciate what good they've gotten as they wait for the mindless non-sense grind they can complete later.

This is a P2P game, your time sink is coming. Seems clear to me that they're making the intro to these weapons easy so that people are actually willing to put up with the grind later and/or are more tempted to give the eureka like stuff a chance once it's ready.
I think it's actually very sneaky on their part, like a drug dealer giving you the first hit for free. You end up with 10+ weapons right now and it's gonna be hard to NOT want to complete 10+ weapons when things get grindy. Where as with Eureka even someone like myself who LOVES what it became was content to leave it at 1 completed weapon for a long time cause "I don't wanna deal with Pagos again ...".

But that's just me though.
IMO every relic before eureka was just a failure in design that didn't grab me. Tis why the Eureka relic are the only one I completed, it actually demanded you interact with others and learn new stuff. Why anyone wants the devs to tell them to run the same old dngs over and over again just to give them "something to do" is beyond me.

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I think you're right on the money with these comments I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Here comes defend squad, they jumped out of the plane, did a hero landing and proudly telling everyone that a less content to do is a great idea.
One says that doing 1 dungeon instead of 2 somehow increased quality, but it's still wall to wall pull fiesta, so AI could handle it.
Other one used copypasta about 74 dungeons and that we should get less following by that logic, because somehow old content should be viable again for some reason.
And the last one comparing hunts to 4 man content.
They like avengers, but with red noses.

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Please stop that. All you are doing is making yourself look like a fool and getting straw everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If you are not enjoying the game you can take a break. I know its crazy talk but you can especially considering how easy it is to catch up by design. I could respond to everything you have gripes about but it won't resolve anything or change your mind so I won't waste the time.

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There is nothing wrong about giving a game critique, which is exactly what the OP did. They never even said they weren't enjoying the game, they were criticizing the amount of content we've received between 2 expansions and everything they've said is 100% valid. Dismissing critique and claiming that all these problems are somehow going to be remedied if they quit the game is pretty silly. This is a copout defensive response that people like to use anytime someone says anything negative about the game. Contrary to popular belief, FFXIV is not a perfect game. Not even close. People are allowed to criticize the game.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I disliked Anemos and Pagos greatly. I would still like to have something like them over the lack of max level content we currently have. Even if its not attached to the relic.

Preferably I would like something much better, but its better than nothing.

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Personally I just don't get that. Just *something* to do isn't going to cut it when it's not fun. Some of you here are practically saying that you wouldn't care if the relics for example is another FATE grind because it's something to do.

At this point I'm just hoping the new Eureka equivalent (if there is one) would impress me with the amount of adjustments made from constructive feedback they've received back then, because the current model has way too many problems other than the rehashed lifeless FATE grinding.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I think you're right on the money with these comments I totally agree.

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Eureka was a good content i enjoyed a lot playing it with my old FC, it was a lot of fun when we tried to follow the train and try not to die. :P

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Personally I just don't get that. Just *something* to do isn't going to cut it when it's not fun. Some of you here are practically saying that you wouldn't care if the relics for example is another FATE grind because it's something to do.

At this point I'm just hoping the new Eureka equivalent (if there is one) would impress me with the amount of adjustments made from constructive feedback they've received back then, because the current model has way too many problems other than the rehashed lifeless FATE grinding.

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We each have our reasons to play a game. For me, personally, MMO's are a time sink. As long as I enjoy the base (combat or otherwise) mechanics, as long as I have things to do, and be reasonably rewarded for them, I am mostly content, even with mediocre content.

I am having fun, because I enjoy the basic mechanics of the game, even in a boring, repetitive context, working towards a guaranteed bigger reward which my subjective judgement deems worthy.

For the other kinds of fun and entertainment I play other games, as an MMO rarely provides enough in quality or quantity. On the other hand, single player games rarely provide the constant long term social platform present in MMOs, to make grind rewards in any way meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Please stop that. All you are doing is making yourself look like a fool and getting straw everywhere.

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The sheer number of likes his comments keep getting defies that assessment LOL. He's speaking for a large part of the community that's tired of getting insulted and told to unsub every time they offer a criticism of the game.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

We each have our reasons to play a game. For me, personally, MMO's are a time sink. As long as I enjoy the base (combat or otherwise) mechanics, as long as I have things to do, and be reasonably rewarded for them, I am mostly content, even with mediocre content.

I am having fun, because I enjoy the basic mechanics of the game, even in a boring, repetitive context, working towards a guaranteed bigger reward which my subjective judgement deems worthy.

For the other kinds of fun and entertainment I play other games, as an MMO rarely provides enough in quality or quantity.

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Seems that way. Again for me personally if I don't enjoy the grind, it's simply not worth my time, even if the rewards are reasonable or good. I just play to have fun, not to feel busy.

It's still possible for a grind to feel repetitive but still fun to do, but I just don't see that about Eureka in particular. Anyway to each their own then.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The sheer number of likes his comments keep getting defies that assessment LOL. He's speaking for a large part of the community that's tired of getting insulted and told to unsub every time they offer a criticism of the game.

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He doesn't have a sheer number of likes lol, he has a few, probably from the same people always complaining on these forums.


A lot of likes in a short amount of time here is around 100. Not 14.


Besides, I like that I can take time off to play other games without feeling like I'm going to fall way behind. I only have so much time Ina week, what with work, raid taking 3 weeknights, and so on.

I like dungeons, I like them alot. Really bummed about them cutting back on them, especially when I've yet to see where those resources are going. But like others have said, it's only 5.25. If one dungeon means we instead get four weapon trials I'd be more than ok honestly.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Here comes defend squad, they jumped out of the plane, did a hero landing and proudly telling everyone that a less content to do is a great idea.
One says that doing 1 dungeon instead of 2 somehow increased quality, but it's still wall to wall pull fiesta, so AI could handle it.
Other one used copypasta about 74 dungeons and that we should get less following by that logic, because somehow old content should be viable again for some reason.
And the last one comparing hunts to 4 man content.
They like avengers, but with red noses.

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I did a Hero Landing? Was it Awesome?
Send me the Replay, I wanna see how cool I look.

But before that, please tell me how 1 less dungeon hurts the game. Im still waiting to hear a good reason why 1 less dungeon is cause for alarm.
Also can you argue at all that the 2 current new dungeons aren't in fact better then the Previous Lv80 Dungeons? Wall to Wall Pull Fiesta has been a thing in every single dungeon since Satasha, so whats your counter point? Why do we need 2 Wall to Wall Dungeons instead of 1? And how does getting 1 hurt the game and why does it spark such an extreme reaction out of people?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Eureka was a good content i enjoyed a lot playing it with my old FC, it was a lot of fun when we tried to follow the train and try not to die. :P

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I took many of my alts through it in addition to my main and that includes BA. It was a fun time for me I adore open world content.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

But before that, please tell me how 1 less dungeon hurts the game. Im still waiting to hear a good reason why 1 less dungeon is cause for alarm.
Also can you argue at all that the 2 current new dungeons aren't in fact better then the Previous Lv80 Dungeons? Wall to Wall Pull Fiesta has been a thing in every single dungeon since Satasha, so whats your counter point? Why do we need 2 Wall to Wall Dungeons instead of 1? And how does getting 1 hurt the game and why does it spark such an extreme reaction out of people?

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You know, this is a game, you suppose to play it. 2 simpistic dungeons gave me 60 minutes of gameplay, for example, now I got only 30 minutes of gameplay. Maybe they made something instead, that could bring me those 30 minutes of gameplay? No, there no such type of content that done that. Maybe they reworked their design behind dungeons and make this one more fun and engaging? And once again — no. So they just took that 30 minute of gameplay and give nothing instead.
Maybe if you don't want to play this game, its fine for you, but I do, so more gameplay means more time spend in game.

People seems to forget something, but hey, we're just whiny bad guys here, right? :^)

https://i.imgur.com/hznmSdM.png

I'm going to say this does feel cheap right now. Beyond just the new relic, the Savage DPS checks feel way too heavy handed compared to the past two savage seasons and the content that is keeping me in the game is primarily in Storm Blood since I never did crafting before. Also the new "primal" fight is really weird since it doesn't help someone get the relic weapon, it's for getting armor that can have dye applied.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Maybe if you don't want to play this game, its fine for you, but I do, so more gameplay means more time spend in game.

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Looking at your lodestone you have 3 roles at 80. Barely touched gather/craft. Seems to me there is a lot more for you to do in game if you choose to do so. Now if that other stuff doesn't appeal to you well I can understand why your dungeons appear to be so important to you. But the fact of the matter is most dungeons are run once for a clear and then people run roulettes to level roles. Most people don't run those dungeons outside of roulettes once they get a clear so your premise that there will be a lot more to do just doesn't fly.

Sure having 3 or 4 dungeons in an expert roulette would be nice but running expert is done once a day not multiple times a day and many people don't even run expert to get/cap tomes anymore. I think SE recognizes that and is adjusting what they do accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Beyond just the new relic, the Savage DPS checks feel way too heavy handed compared to the past two savage seasons

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E8S was honestly the only major outlier in this tier as far as as how rough the DPS check was.

E5S and E6S were about as bad as E1S and E2S, while E7S was a total joke compared to E3S.

If your sole focus is only the battle aspect of this game, then Shadowbringers definitely may feel more shallow compared to earlier expansions.

But for the completionists - and by that I mean the people like me who looked at the Achievement log, saw there was a score, and saw just how much content this game tried to make available, it feels like I am never going to catch up! There is still so much I've barely scratched the surface of doing! I rotate in and out of what a current obsession is. Sometimes it's Big Fish. Sometimes it's Triple Triad. Sometimes it's old glamour weapons. Sometimes it's dog farming (I have had some seriously rotten luck in those fights.)

I am sorry OP and others feel like the game isn't offering enough of their favorite kind of content, or enough variety of it. I too get a little tired of hitting the same two Expert dungeons day in and day out. But the game as a whole is a giant never ending timesink, with so much content I don't think anyone on the planet has really "completed" it.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

You know, this is a game, you suppose to play it. 2 simpistic dungeons gave me 60 minutes of gameplay, for example, now I got only 30 minutes of gameplay. Maybe they made something instead, that could bring me those 30 minutes of gameplay? No, there no such type of content that done that. Maybe they reworked their design behind dungeons and make this one more fun and engaging? And once again — no. So they just took that 30 minute of gameplay and give nothing instead.
Maybe if you don't want to play this game, its fine for you, but I do, so more gameplay means more time spend in game.

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..........I play the game same as you. Maybe Moreso, who knows. I get more then 30 minutes of gameplay out of this MMO thats more then Running Dungeons.
There is a story, there is Site seeing, there is crafting which I need to do more of, challenging Trials. There is more to an MMO then running Dungeons. Maybe you should expand what you do in XIV if you feel like you lost 30 minutes of Playtime because 1 less dungeon.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Looking at your lodestone you have 3 roles at 80. Barely touched gather/craft.

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And you need to look even deeper if you want to. I'm old fanished MMORPG guy, so I have classes that I feel like playing on this character, I can't see this Huyr doing feminine animations or wearing robes as WHM, so I have alot of alts, and one of them is crafter.
>most dungeons are run once for a clear
What if I want set from this dungeon? What if I better run 76 lvl dungeon, than doing sastasha for xxxx times. There are at least minions you can get in the dungeons (wish it was mounts instead with a very low drop chance)
If people dont want to do anything, what the point of creating something? This was a very old topic we had with someone on forum, that they should rethink about rewards and difficulty in the dungeons, but it was flooded with people, telling that changing something is wrong and they should go unsub and play abother games, topic was dead afterwards.

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I get more then 30 minutes

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Fella, we were talking about dungeons here, you were asking question about DUNGEONS, alo.
And yes someone might stand in limsa for 5 hours and be happy with it.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

And yes someone might stand in limsa for 5 hours and be happy with it.

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What does Standing in LImsa have to do with Gameplay?
Thats not playing the game Fella

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki;5334091What if I want set from this dungeon? What if I better run 76 lvl dungeon, than doing sastasha for xxxx times. There are at least minions you can get in the dungeons [I

(wish it was mounts instead with a very low drop chance)[/I].

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I'll repeat myself.

But the fact of the matter is most dungeons are run once for a clear and then people run roulettes to level roles. Most people don't run those dungeons outside of roulettes once they get a clear so your premise that there will be a lot more to do just doesn't fly.

And if you have alts terrific welcome to my club.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

What does Standing in LImsa have to do with Gameplay?
Thats not playing the game Fella

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It means that you doing whatever you want in the game has nothing to do with the question about why less dungeon are worse for the PVE gameplay.
Just say that you're mentor and this will be a culmination of this topic, highest point I ever seen on this forum, someone who actually asked the question and for answer just said, that he has something else to do.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

You know, this is a game, you suppose to play it. 2 simpistic dungeons gave me 60 minutes of gameplay, for example, now I got only 30 minutes of gameplay. Maybe they made something instead, that could bring me those 30 minutes of gameplay? No, there no such type of content that done that. Maybe they reworked their design behind dungeons and make this one more fun and engaging? And once again — no. So they just took that 30 minute of gameplay and give nothing instead.
Maybe if you don't want to play this game, its fine for you, but I do, so more gameplay means more time spend in game.

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30 minutes to finish a dungeon? Sounds like a terrible group lol

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

30 minutes to finish a dungeon? Sounds like a terrible group lol

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Following the trend we're seeing, in next expansion we'll get 10 minute dungeon with old recolored sets only as rewards, with no minion and same mechanics, but it will have big explosion in the middle of it, so it will be really cool to look once. Wait a second... We're half way to it.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Following the trend we're seeing, in next expansion we'll get 10 minute dungeon with old recolored sets only as rewards, with no minion and same mechanics, but it will have big explosion in the middle of it, so it will be really cool to look once. Wait a second... We're half way to it.

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If you're trying to be clever, you weren't.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Following the trend we're seeing, in next expansion we'll get 10 minute dungeon with old recolored sets only as rewards, with no minion and same mechanics, but it will have big explosion in the middle of it, so it will be really cool to look once. Wait a second... We're half way to it.

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You are aware many Dungeons dont have Minion drops in them right?
We already have a short Dungeon: Haukke Manor-Hardmode
Alot of Mechanics are already recycled over the past few Years
Big Explosion in the Middle? Sounds like Amaurot and alot of other dungeons.

Everything you listed is already a thing, and its not even recent

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

E8S was honestly the only major outlier in this tier as far as as how rough the DPS check was.

E5S and E6S were about as bad as E1S and E2S, while E7S was a total joke compared to E3S.

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Well, if you say so. I certainly don't feel that way about E6S. To be frank I could see swaths of people just not ever break past E6S without going to a 490 weapon. There's probably a lack of skill in general as well as self entitlement from a lot of the people who supposedly seen enrage on it multiple times. That and with the amount of content there is to grind out there's no reason they couldn't just give people an extra minute to finish the boss off. It might make it too easy, but I'd prefer that over what we got.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

You are aware many Dungeons dont have Minion drops in them right?
We already have a short Dungeon: Haukke Manor-Hardmode
Alot of Mechanics are already recycled over the past few Years
Big Explosion in the Middle? Sounds like Amaurot and alot of other dungeons.

Everything you listed is already a thing, and its not even recent

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Everything I listed was an irony, that why I ended sentence that way. But hey, someone was so clever that literally taking words out of context. If you do simplistic dungeons like that, at least do 2 of them, it's more content than one. Or at least change the design behind them, do something new and fresh, this way even one will be enough if it's interesting.
People need to understand that doing a boss in a circle is a different experience than doing a dungeon with crafted environment and design, you can't compare it to hunts, craft or sightseeing log, the closest you can get is deep dungeon, but we're not gonna get it as well.

I will say for ppl who complain about having no content, well just open your achievements list and start to clear stuff from there, when you have 20k points then we can talk.

cheers

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Originally Posted by SekkerOfTrust

I will say for ppl who complain about having no content, well just open your achievements list and start to clear stuff from there, when you have 20k points then we can talk.

cheers

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I could start counting grains of sand on the beach and it would be as fun and entertaining as collecting these brownie points for shits and giggles. Not to mention rewarding.

The complaint is that there is nothing fun or meaningful to do. And most people don't care about a meaningless number on a sub-page.

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Originally Posted by SekkerOfTrust

I will say for ppl who complain about having no content, well just open your achievements list and start to clear stuff from there, when you have 20k points then we can talk.

cheers

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How about we click Cancel Recurring Subscription and play games instead of Sekker-To-do-list simulator?

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

It's funny that people are suddenly saying they love Eureka and they want it to come back when last expansion there's constant threads about it saying it's the worst thing ever and that the devs should stop continuing it.

I mean yeah, the relic grind this time is pretty short, but they can improve/extend the grind in a more engaging manner. A zone with the only thing to do there is just killing X amount of trash mobs to spawn a FATE in a new coat of paint is not really "interesting" content I'd want them to revisit, and most people did as well.

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Also please remember that at the time of Eureka you already had people that loved Eureka..there is nothing strange to have someone come in and say that its better. It would only be strange if that comes out of the mouth of someone that hated Eureka...but honestly even that would be possible if the new content is even worse..

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Originally Posted by SekkerOfTrust

I will say for ppl who complain about having no content, well just open your achievements list and start to clear stuff from there, when you have 20k points then we can talk.

cheers

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Of course because achivements are content...well if that is all that is needed would you be fine if we dont get any new content at all and just new achievements? Here have something in the millions..farm that for x months thats surely fun and rewarding..especially since you only get achievement points out of it that are worth nothing...

And before someone comes in with the: you only have x jobs (because that surely means someone cant make good points..)..I have every single job at 80..I have crafted each recipe other than the newest ones..I have two houses and I think nearly 12k or 13k achievement points..right now I am crafting at least everything from the work shop once to have that done..I know a grind..yet I fully agree with the OP..we get even less this expansion..and right now there is nothing there to justify that. Heck we even had the highest amount of subs..and the highest amount of cash shop items...and yet we get less. IMO a successful MMO should only built onto their basics..it should not decrease their basics again and again while giving us either really niche content or something that is done way too fast..heck I was looking forward to Ishgard and it turned into nothing but Rowena turn in but with points and a few fates..now we dont even get a new deep dungeon and the first relic step is the shortest ever..

Edit:
Also if I remember it correctly a reddit thread posted the newest lucky bancho numbers and we lost nearly 200k subs..seems that Ishgard and all this stuff cant keep people that are not that much into crafting subbed..good that we will now have a relic that is finished in one hour and patches that will be delayed (even if its not their fault) even futher..will be great for the sub numbers..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also please remember that at the time of Eureka you already had people that loved Eureka..there is nothing strange to have someone come in and say that its better. It would only be strange if that comes out of the mouth of someone that hated Eureka...but honestly even that would be possible if the new content is even worse..

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Of course there are people who loved it, but I'm speaking about the majority here.

No one can really deny that the majority did not like Eureka, and the people who liked it are the odd ones out.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Everything I listed was an irony, that why I ended sentence that way. But hey, someone was so clever that literally taking words out of context. If you do simplistic dungeons like that, at least do 2 of them, it's more content than one. Or at least change the design behind them, do something new and fresh, this way even one will be enough if it's interesting.
People need to understand that doing a boss in a circle is a different experience than doing a dungeon with crafted environment and design, you can't compare it to hunts, craft or sightseeing log, the closest you can get is deep dungeon, but we're not gonna get it as well.

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Thats your attempt at Irony? Yikes...Need to work on it a little.
Nah, Id rather do 1 better if not Slightly better "Simplistic Dungeon" instead of 2 Mediocre Dungeons that get pushed out because people think we need 2 and cant be happy with 1. If dungeon running is all you care about, then thats you man, run them till your hearts content.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I could start counting grains of sand on the beach and it would be as fun and entertaining as collecting these brownie points for shits and giggles. Not to mention rewarding.

The complaint is that there is nothing fun or meaningful to do. And most people don't care about a meaningless number on a sub-page.

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regardless if you find it fun or not its content, this game is a themepark, some ppl will have fun on something that others dont enjoy and viceversa.
I actually starting fishing legend fishes cuz im done whit all 28 relics that came on 5.25, and i have many days to get em all.