We are in need of a official response to the healer situation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

So, again, a lot of that particular response of mine was aimed towards people discouraging another poster from letting the discussion here influence their thoughts/advocating blanket distrust of outside opinions. In isolation from the game.

Of course, your point is likely "if you typically trust expert consensus, why don't you trust Mr. Happy et al.'s take?" It's a decent one to make. Quick confession: I am not a master healer in this game. I know I'm not good enough to do Ultimate, and have no desire to waste my and other's time failing at it. I therefore wound up falling out of my static this expansion after O4S because I didn't want to prog UCoB (also, I had to finish graduate work and adjust to post-grad life). So Mr. Happy is by FAR a more accomplished and skilled player than I.

---

Here's my issue with that line of thought tho. In that same podcast Mr.Happy DID have a healer main on that show and he said the same thing. So ok you can side step why Mr Happy said what he said - even tho he played 5.0 - but how do you explain healer mains saying the same thing he said? Is that not enough for you to say.. " maybe I should wait and not freak out cause I didn't play it and someone with WAY more experience and skill isn't going crazy? " That's my issue with all the freak out. When 5.0 is out and it's busted then sure.. scream loud and proud. screaming NOW before you've touched the job does nothing. Even if you're RIGHT they aren't going to change anything until AFTER it's out anyway. It just looks like people want to scream for screaming sake instead of waiting until you have hands on. I don't understand people honestly. I'm not happy with monk but I'm goign to wait until I get my hands on it cause nothing is goign to change before anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WaterShield

Very well said.

I seriously don't understand why this is such a controversial topic for some people.

---

Because people like to scream for screaming sake without gettign their hands on FIRST? Like you even admited too doing in that astro thread a few weeks ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Here's my issue with that line of thought tho. In that same podcast Mr.Happy DID have a healer main on that show and he said the same thing. So ok you can side step why Mr Happy said what he said - even tho he played 5.0 - but how do you explain healer mains saying the same thing he said? Is that not enough for you to say.. " maybe I should wait and not freak out cause I didn't play it and someone with WAY more experience and skill isn't going crazy? " That's my issue with all the freak out. When 5.0 is out and it's busted then sure.. scream loud and proud. screaming NOW before you've touched the job does nothing. Even if you're RIGHT they aren't going to change anything until AFTER it's out anyway. It just looks like people want to scream for screaming sake instead of waiting until you have hands on. I don't understand people honestly. I'm not happy with monk but I'm goign to wait until I get my hands on it cause nothing is goign to change before anyway.

---

Which healer mains? Admittedly, I've only seen some 6 of them go over the changes in detail, but of those not one seemed happy about the skill reductions. Most just ended on a note something like "Better hope there really is going to be that increase in damage, unlike what we see from the initial dungeon testing, or healer's going to get notably more dull," and sometimes a further "To be fair, healing itself is pretty dull anyways because very few actions interconnect without demanding that they be entirely banked and bursted together (as in Collective Unconscious); there's no happy medium at present that can be used to make healing kits feel more interesting."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which healer mains? Admittedly, I've only seen some 6 of them go over the changes in detail, but of those not one seemed happy about the skill reductions. Most just ended on a note something like "Better hope there really is going to be that increase in damage, unlike what we see from the initial dungeon testing, or healer's going to get notably more dull," and sometimes a further "To be fair, healing itself is pretty dull anyways because very few actions interconnect without demanding that they be entirely banked and bursted together (as in Collective Unconscious); there's no happy medium at present that can be used to make healing kits feel more interesting."

---

I forget one of their names but Momo also agreed with Mr happy on the changes. But Momo and someone else were on a show and both said they are waiting for the raids to make a full judgement. Sly who isn't a healer main mind everyone was the only one on the podcast who was flat out unhappy about the changes but he couldn't explain why. My biggest and only point is this, I'm willing to wait til I get my hands on it. I'll use MNK as my example as that's my main since I started this game 3 years ago.

With PB being back on a 2 min cooldown, TK still being useless, the fist stances STILL being in the game while only making one of them useable, Riddle of fire being still in along with even the more useless riddle of earth makes me seriously want to throw the job out. Like I GET it, I get the unhappyiness. But what I'm not going to do is scream moan and cry and BOYCOTT like I don't have a clue. There's nothing wrong with being unhappy with the changes, but is it so wrong to wait until you get your hands on it? Thats what the media people are saying you do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Here's my issue with that line of thought tho. In that same podcast Mr.Happy DID have a healer main on that show and he said the same thing. So ok you can side step why Mr Happy said what he said - even tho he played 5.0 - but how do you explain healer mains saying the same thing he said? Is that not enough for you to say.. " maybe I should wait and not freak out cause I didn't play it and someone with WAY more experience and skill isn't going crazy? " That's my issue with all the freak out. When 5.0 is out and it's busted then sure.. scream loud and proud. screaming NOW before you've touched the job does nothing. Even if you're RIGHT they aren't going to change anything until AFTER it's out anyway. It just looks like people want to scream for screaming sake instead of waiting until you have hands on. I don't understand people honestly. I'm not happy with monk but I'm goign to wait until I get my hands on it cause nothing is goign to change before anyway.

---

That same healer main, while saying WHM pdps is "bonkers", SCH is "fine" and AST is "dead (he was partially joking, but only partially)" also said they're going to be boring on his analysis of healers-- a reason many of us are upset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which healer mains? Admittedly, I've only seen some 6 of them go over the changes in detail, but of those not one seemed happy about the skill reductions. Most just ended on a note something like "Better hope there really is going to be that increase in damage, unlike what we see from the initial dungeon testing, or healer's going to get notably more dull," and sometimes a further "To be fair, healing itself is pretty dull anyways because very few actions interconnect without demanding that they be entirely banked and bursted together (as in Collective Unconscious); there's no happy medium at present that can be used to make healing kits feel more interesting."

---

One was FFXIVMOMO. I don't remember who the second one was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Imagine thinking you'll be going 90 seconds without ever casting a single GCD heal.

That's the only scenario where Misery is a damage loss.

---

I ran Hullbreaker Isle today on WHM and went through the entire second boss without casting a single heal spell. Not one. Not even regen. I was forced to spam Stone and Aero because there was literally nothing to heal.

That’s longer than 90 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

That same healer main, while saying WHM pdps is "bonkers", SCH is "fine" and AST is "dead (he was partially joking, but only partially)" also said they're going to be boring on his analysis of healers-- a reason many of us are upset.

---

They all also based their opinions of the assumption damage will increase to some extent. They've all acknowledged if nothing changes regarding outgoing damage, it will be pretty disappointing for healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

One was FFXIVMOMO. I don't remember who the second one was.

---

Tate, who plays healers and has cleared Final. He isn't a healer main, however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

I ran Hullbreaker Isle today on WHM and went through the entire second boss without casting a single heal spell. Not one. Not even regen. I was forced to spam Stone and Aero because there was literally nothing to heal.

That’s longer than 90 seconds.

---

I'm not saying you're lying, but I am saying you don't have proof. Some have made the same claim you have, but when empirical evidence is available, it's shown otherwise.

And that's partially where I'm having issues here. Why do some (not you specifically) of you exaggerate your own performance? Does admitting that you do use a GCD to heal make you less of a player?

Using specifically the Afflatus skill line, the only thing that could improve it is giving it a weaker-than-Glare single target "Black Lily" version, but even if that were not given, there's still plenty of areas where GCD healing occurs that you could utilize Afflatus spells and not "lose damage" because you needed to GCD heal anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They all also based their opinions of the assumption damage will increase to some extent. They've all acknowledged if nothing changes regarding outgoing damage, it will be pretty disappointing for healers.

---

Exactly. And so far, everything we've seen so far doesn't support damage going up in any significant amount. Even if we take Titania E3 as ez mode, we also have to keep in mind many of those attempts were also first attempts so we'd expect them to be taking more damage than normal from not knowing the fight/mechanics and healers were still having plenty of healing downtime to do DPSing according to people who went there. This means: already boring solo play, disappointing raid play, OK dungeon play depending on which healer you're playing. WHM dungeons seems pretty much the same, but I'm not so sure about SCH... AST has always been dull soloing, but with cards less interesting I feel it may be a little meh in dungeons too. =/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'm not saying you're lying, but I am saying you don't have proof. Some have made the same claim you have, but when empirical evidence is available, it's shown otherwise.

And that's partially where I'm having issues here. Why do some (not you specifically) of you exaggerate your own performance? Does admitting that you do use a GCD to heal make you less of a player?

Using specifically the Afflatus skill line, the only thing that could improve it is giving it a weaker-than-Glare single target "Black Lily" version, but even if that were not given, there's still plenty of areas where GCD healing occurs that you could utilize Afflatus spells and not "lose damage" because you needed to GCD heal anyways.

---

You could also do "Afflatus Heal -> Upgraded instas-cast DPS basics mininukes and feed blood lilly -> x3 -> Afflatus Misery Big Nuke."

I actually like the idea behind the new lilly system. Find best place to drop the GCD heal, get big damage later. I just wish it was more involved than 1 payoff per 90 seconds, and that it was actually a net gain over stone spam instead of a partial refund.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

You could also do "Afflatus Heal -> Upgraded instas-cast DPS basics mininukes and feed blood lilly -> x3 -> Afflatus Misery Big Nuke."

I actually like the idea behind the new lilly system. Find best place to drop the GCD heal, get big damage later. I just wish it was more involved than 1 payoff per 90 seconds, and that it was actually a net gain over stone spam instead of a partial refund.

---

I definitely should not have said 'the only way'. Some spell interaction is sorely needed among all casters, and having a potential feedback loop of spell empowerment between regular spells and Afflatus spells could serve as a solid conceptual foundation, though it may be too late to see that come at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I definitely should not have said 'the only way'. Some spell interaction is sorely needed among all casters, and having a potential feedback loop of spell empowerment between regular spells and Afflatus spells could serve as a solid conceptual foundation, though it may be too late to see that come at all.

---

Empowerment? Outside of former Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition? What, do you want healers to be... DPS now? With their fancy smancy rotations and priorities and synergies and junk?

...I, too, would have preferred that, yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'm not saying you're lying, but I am saying you don't have proof. Some have made the same claim you have, but when empirical evidence is available, it's shown otherwise.

And that's partially where I'm having issues here. Why do some (not you specifically) of you exaggerate your own performance? Does admitting that you do use a GCD to heal make you less of a player?

Using specifically the Afflatus skill line, the only thing that could improve it is giving it a weaker-than-Glare single target "Black Lily" version, but even if that were not given, there's still plenty of areas where GCD healing occurs that you could utilize Afflatus spells and not "lose damage" because you needed to GCD heal anyways.

---

Here's the deal on GCD healing for me personally on WHM, when I have my best parses, the 95+% ones, when you dig deeper on the healing, the top two GCD heals are usually regen, which I use for single target healing while moving, and Medica II, which I use with SC while moving. On my 98% DPS parse on Os3, every other GCD heal is used 4 or less times during the entire fight and more healing on my part was not needed. Regens + oGCD healing took care of the majority of the healing required by me there.

I know you're addressing someone else, but I thought an example would be helpful. I barely use Cure II and Medica in optimal play in raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlantasia

I know you're addressing someone else, but I thought an example would be helpful. I barely use Cure II and Medica in optimal play in raids.

---

I appreciate it.

Currently, Misery is being looked at as a loss. However, do consider that during raids there are periods of downtime. I have no doubt you can waste black lillies here if you truly have no other avenue.

But on more realistic notes, not everyone is always at optimal play. Mistakes happen, and therefore patching up is needed. There are OGCDs, and while some can certainly be used here, you cannot always spare it, thus a GCD heal may be required. What Misery does is turn required GCD healing into a gain. I'm sure you can review your own play and see areas where you could utilize them.

That isn't to say it can't be better. In the discussion thread, I pointed out that I think you could add in a weaker instant cast Damage spell as an option that would nicely round out the Afflatus kit, though more can be done with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I appreciate it.

Currently, Misery is being looked at as a loss. However, do consider that during raids there are periods of downtime. I have no doubt you can waste black lillies here if you truly have no other avenue.

But on more realistic notes, not everyone is always at optimal play. Mistakes happen, and therefore patching up is needed. There are OGCDs, and while some can certainly be used here, you cannot always spare it, thus a GCD heal may be required. What Misery does is turn required GCD healing into a gain. I'm sure you can review your own play and see areas where you could utilize them.

That isn't to say it can't be better. In the discussion thread, I pointed out that I think you could add in a weaker instant cast Damage spell as an option that would nicely round out the Afflatus kit, though more can be done with it.

---

Wasting resources is sub-optimal play. Also, WHM already generates more than enough overheal already thanks to, for example, Assize spam and regens, no need to add even more just to waste the damned Lilies. Unfortunately,you are probably right that this might be the way to go about it, provided that they even spawn the Blood Lily if you overheal with them. The Lilies we have now don't appear when you overheal. I also agree with Atlantasia, my most used GCD heals are Regen and Medica II, and none of those are replacable with the Afflatus-heals since they function differently.
Even if you consider sub-optimal play of the party, unless several people f*ck up together, you are still unlikely to cast 3 GCD heals in 90 seconds. Yes, I had such parties, they were no fun and usually don't get very far since they are normally also lacking in other areas (like damage; people dying left and right is a huge DPS loss for the party), so why even count them? And let's not forget here that people f*cking up very often means people dying; at which point your precious Afflatus skills are absolutely worthlesss, they cannot bring them back on their feet unless I severely misunderstood them, which I doubt.

So, let's say I do use an Afflatus spell to iron out the occasional mishap. Unless that happens 3 times in 90 seconds, you will be sitting on Lilies just as you are now, and you won't use Misery all that often, either. The Lily system is better than before, yes, but it is nowhere near mindblowingly good or super useful, as you seem to think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

I also agree with Atlantasia, my most used GCD heals are Regen and Medica II, and none of those are replacable with the Afflatus-heals since they function differently.

---

They are if your co-healer can adjust from his side without loosing anything. And, we know SCH and AST (less) have more tools now, so this may happen.
And if you do it every 30 sec, you will not loose any Divine Benison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I appreciate it.

Currently, Misery is being looked at as a loss. However, do consider that during raids there are periods of downtime. I have no doubt you can waste black lillies here if you truly have no other avenue.

But on more realistic notes, not everyone is always at optimal play. Mistakes happen, and therefore patching up is needed. There are OGCDs, and while some can certainly be used here, you cannot always spare it, thus a GCD heal may be required. What Misery does is turn required GCD healing into a gain. I'm sure you can review your own play and see areas where you could utilize them.

That isn't to say it can't be better. In the discussion thread, I pointed out that I think you could add in a weaker instant cast Damage spell as an option that would nicely round out the Afflatus kit, though more can be done with it.

---

I feel like I'm missing something, because wouldn't Afflatus Rapture (AoE) have more frequent opportunities than we're bringing up? It's instant cast and it's free.

From what we've seen from the media tour, there was more frequent AoE damage to the party in the dungeon and in the Titania fight than we've seen in Stormblood. Plenary now has the benefit of not relying on Medica/Medica II to be used, but will it be enough along with Medica II ticks to keep the party alive and healthy?

Afflatus Solace I can understand because you really don't need Cure/Cure II if you're managing your oGCDs, but even now, I need a Medica once in a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I feel like I'm missing something, because wouldn't Afflatus Rapture (AoE) have more frequent opportunities than we're bringing up? It's instant cast and it's free.

From what we've seen from the media tour, there was more frequent AoE damage to the party in the dungeon and in the Titania fight than we've seen in Stormblood. Plenary now has the benefit of not relying on Medica/Medica II to be used, but will it be enough along with Medica II ticks to keep the party alive and healthy?



Afflatus Solace I can understand because you really don't need Cure/Cure II if you're managing your oGCDs, but even now, I need a Medica once in a while.

---

While that tends to be the case, whether you need AffMedica or AffCure itself is irrelevant. If you're using either, you needed the GCD heal. To say it is a loss of DPS ignores that you weren't going to use an attack spell anyways.

And you only need it once every 90 seconds to break even.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

So, let's say I do use an Afflatus spell to iron out the occasional mishap. Unless that happens 3 times in 90 seconds, you will be sitting on Lilies just as you are now, and you won't use Misery all that often, either. The Lily system is better than before, yes, but it is nowhere near mindblowingly good or super useful, as you seem to think.

---

If at least one GCD was required, then the remaining two you can 'make the choice' between dealing damage, or topping someone off with Afflatus rather than an ability.

Math incoming.

Currently, if you only use the lilies to generate a blood lily, doing so when you could cast Glare at current potency is a net loss of 75 per spell cast. This is because the healing is not required so you are literally just using them to generate a lily.

However, this changes, if at least one of those casts was needed. This instead means that in addition to utilizing a GCD heal you required, you also put away 225 bonus attack potency in your pocket to cash in. "Wasting" the lilies beyond this point to generate a blood lily means a total of 3 GCDs at -75. In other words, your net loss is 0.

In any scenario where a GCD heal is required, Afflatus isn't a 'loss of damage' but a gain. Regen might be more effective, but Regen is still a net loss of 300. Regen is only 50% more effective, yet a loss of 300% more damage than Afflatus Cure.

When you factor in potential raid boosts, Adds, any dual boss fights, high mobility segments with damage intake, and inherent traits of instant cast spells, Afflatus isn't perfect, but it's perfectly usable. It still has room for improvement. I've said as much, I agree with that.

Please note that in encounters where GCD healing isn't required, then you and others are right to ignore it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'm not saying you're lying, but I am saying you don't have proof. Some have made the same claim you have, but when empirical evidence is available, it's shown otherwise.

And that's partially where I'm having issues here. Why do some (not you specifically) of you exaggerate your own performance? Does admitting that you do use a GCD to heal make you less of a player?

Using specifically the Afflatus skill line, the only thing that could improve it is giving it a weaker-than-Glare single target "Black Lily" version, but even if that were not given, there's still plenty of areas where GCD healing occurs that you could utilize Afflatus spells and not "lose damage" because you needed to GCD heal anyways.

---

You could also log on and try it yourself.

I ran with a level 70 Dragoon, 63 Bard, and 50 Warrior. So only three of us were level synced.

Also, the lack of healing had nothing to do with my “performance” as a healer. There was literally not enough damage in the encounter design to warrant any healing.

I don’t need to prove that to you when you could literally go into the game and see it yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

You could also log on and try it yourself.

I ran with a level 70 Dragoon, 63 Bard, and 50 Warrior. So only three of us were level synced.

Also, the lack of healing had nothing to do with my “performance” as a healer. There was literally not enough damage in the encounter design to warrant any healing.

I don’t need to prove that to you when you could literally go into the game and see it yourself.

---

Sure. There are encounters that are light on healing. But how about the ones that are heavier on it?

Should we ignore those?

Edit: Forgive this, but I have other forums I want to discuss things in, so you're only getting this one, lest I hit my daily limit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

That’s not what we’re discussing.

The whole debate is centered around healer downtime, so fights that are more heal intensive do not apply. Even if they did, they are a minority of the content we have available to us right now.

So, yeah, can you give a logical explanation as to why we’re given more healing spells again when so much of our content is light on requires healing?

---

The same reason tanks have mitigation cooldowns despite not needing them for the majority of content.

Just because it isn't used in -ALL- content doesn't mean it isn't useful in some.

This is also a matter that addresses a more subtle part of the damage / healing dichotomy, and that's decision making. By attaching Misery to healing GCD use, it means your big pay off wtf White Mage foul has inherent opportunity cost, and finding those areas where you can minimize that cost to maximize your gain becomes a facet of your gameflow.

Wasting your lilies to heal something that isn't there means Misery is, at worst, "Not worth it". Utilizing your Lilies, recognizing when you cannot OGCD or when you shouldn't, when you should Regen vs "Cure 2" as a spot heal, or a maintenance heal, leads to a bigger pay off. As an earlier poster mentioned, you're more likely to use Medica over Cure 2, primarily because Assize is usually not used to respond to damage intake, Cure 3 isn't useful in spread scenarios, and medica 2 shouldn't be spammed.

Also, my previous math was a little off in a prior post, primarily because Regen's potency may have changed.

Using the tooltips we have (which are not final but no reason not to use them), Regen is a 1200 potency heal over 18 seconds while AffCure is 700 / GCD.

We can extrapolate this out with 2 Regens being worth more than 3 AffCures.

So long as there is no overhealing on either, this means 2 Regens have a potency loss of 300 over 3 gcds. (2 Glares lost, 1 Glare gained) compared to 3 AffCures being a potency gain of 675 (Each Misery is 900 potency over 4 gcds, or 225. Using Afflatus to heal instead of another GCD means you bank +225 potency to cash in when Misery is finally used).

If there is zero healing, then every AffHeal is -75 potency (225 banked potency - 300 Glare) because that's a glare you should have used instead.

So, sure. Some encounters you never use a GCD heal. But I'd reckon in most you're still using regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Sure. There are encounters that are light on healing. But how about the ones that are heavier on it?

Should we ignore those?

---

That’s not what we’re discussing.

The whole debate is centered around healer downtime, so fights that are more heal intensive do not apply. Even if they did, they are a minority of the content we have available to us right now.

So, yeah, can you give a logical explanation as to why we’re given more healing spells again when so much of our content is light on requires healing?

Looks normal to me. All people saw/experienced were tuned down content with limitations and non final potencies etc.
Wont hurt playing with the changes then providing feedback,thats how it should be anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sathona

Looks normal to me. All people saw/experienced were tuned down content with limitations and non final potencies etc.
Wont hurt playing with the changes then providing feedback,thats how it should be anyway.

---

Potencies are technically never final, in that Squeen can tweak them again and again and again and again. We've seen this happen many times for each of the healers since Heavensward, where various tools would be boosted to the point of being ridiculous in order to "compensate" for design flaws that Squeen always hopes to fix in the next expansion, as they work to create "balance among the healers." However, if you think that potencies will be different from what has been provided at e3 and what will be in the initial release of Shadowbringers, don't hold your breath. All final updates and changes were made prior to e3, by Yoshi P's own admission, and the e3 build is not the April build that was thrown at the Media tour invitees. Because of that, currently, there's nothing we can do to have them stop what they're doing, and it's disappointing, because we all know it's going to lead to the same place it's lead to multiple times.
The pattern basically is:
"Wait until you reach the high end content that we release later on down the road, then complain, and we might listen about [job]."
then "We have seen many of your complaints, and I need to say that you're not playing [job] correctly."
then "We have seen a drop in players playing [job], and we believe it's because the [job] lacks a strength in its functionality. We'll be looking for player feedback in order to determine what is wrong, and, with the help of the community, we'll update [job] to fix it."
then "We can't fix [job] right now, because it would be too taxing on our servers, so we've adjusted the numbers as a placeholder until we are able to fix [job] in the next overall role adjustment, look forward to it."
then finally "We can't update [job] the way we want, because the updates we want would require us to create substantial system changes, so we have increased the potencies of [job]'s abilities to compensate until we can make these changes in the next expansion. We're excited to share this with you, our players, so look forward to it."

At this point, many who have seen this cycle the multiple times that it's happened since Yoshi's leadership began, have grown tired of seeing this happen, especially after the last expansion, where everyone was more or less content with what they had ("if only they would just add "x" to make "job" more competitive with the others" was the basic statement that ended up prevalent over statements like "we need to get rid of "x" because I hate them for making my job less worthwhile."). I stand with the opinion that, if they hadn't removed and changed as much as they had to the existing spells and abilities of the healers, and still provided what new tools they did provide, many of us would have remained content (though WHMs would still be looking for a tool to provide rDPS). Their customary potency bandaid fixes to stop the bleeding only make the problem worse for themselves, especially on the path that they're trying to take healers down now.

^^ this.

Believe in patterns, if nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

While that tends to be the case, whether you need AffMedica or AffCure itself is irrelevant. If you're using either, you needed the GCD heal. To say it is a loss of DPS ignores that you weren't going to use an attack spell anyways.

And you only need it once every 90 seconds to break even.

---

But that's just stupid! If you're in a situation where your oGCDs aren't enough, and the rest of your party needs a Medica/Afflatus Rapture or may risk being in the kill zone, wouldn't you be potentially hurting team DPS by not healing them? If they die, that's a massive drop to team wide DPS that your little Stone spells aren't going to make up for. Maybe it's a DPS drop in a vacuum, but last I checked, Bosses don't stand around like training dummies and encourage you to parce till your heart's content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But that's just stupid! If you're in a situation where your oGCDs aren't enough, and the rest of your party needs a Medica/Afflatus Rapture or may risk being in the kill zone, wouldn't you be potentially hurting team DPS by not healing them? If they die, that's a massive drop to team wide DPS that your little Stone spells aren't going to make up for. Maybe it's a DPS drop in a vacuum, but last I checked, Bosses don't stand around like training dummies and encourage you to parce till your heart's content.

---

Of course we would heal them. However, past precedent shows us that very rarely do we need to rely on GCD heals to do our jobs effectively. That’s the concern.

For progression, yeah, we’ll probably be using those lilies frequently. Once players are geared/know mechanics, they will most likely be forgotten unless you fish for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

Of course we would heal them. However, past precedent shows us that very rarely do we need to rely on GCD heals to do our jobs effectively. That’s the concern.

For progression, yeah, we’ll probably be using those lilies frequently. Once players are geared/know mechanics, they will most likely be forgotten unless you fish for it.

---

But we know from the media tour that there's a higher demand for party healing in both the level 73 dungeon, and in the Titania fight. WHM has 3 ways to heal the entire Party: Assize, Plenary Indulgence, and Medica II ticks. How are we sure that the demand isn't going to require more frequent Afflatus Rapture casts, even after geared?

Sure it's conjecture at this point, but so is projecting the exact same layout we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But that's just stupid! If you're in a situation where your oGCDs aren't enough, and the rest of your party needs a Medica/Afflatus Rapture or may risk being in the kill zone, wouldn't you be potentially hurting team DPS by not healing them? If they die, that's a massive drop to team wide DPS that your little Stone spells aren't going to make up for. Maybe it's a DPS drop in a vacuum, but last I checked, Bosses don't stand around like training dummies and encourage you to parce till your heart's content.

---

Yes. That is entirely the point I'm making.

A GCD heal is a DPS loss, unless it's an Afflatus heal, which banks potency for later use. The only reason it will ever be a DPS loss is if you're in a 100% uptime scenario that also doesn't require a GCD heal at least once every 90 seconds.

The rate these scenarios come into play depends upon the party in question, the healer in question, and the scenario in question. That's a fair amount of variables to throw a sweeping generalization for - Anecdotal evidence aside, I also went into a more analytical approach in a prior post.

Namely - GCD healing is covering "Potency" your OGCDs cannot keep up with. This doesn't just mean Cure 2. It also refers to Regen. Any amount of GCD healing that Afflatus can cover turns into a -dps gain-.

So while we may not use Cure 2 as often, I can't think of a majority of cases where you do not also use Regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But we know from the media tour that there's a higher demand for party healing in both the level 73 dungeon, and in the Titania fight. WHM has 3 ways to heal the entire Party: Assize, Plenary Indulgence, and Medica II ticks. How are we sure that the demand isn't going to require more frequent Afflatus Rapture casts, even after geared?

Sure it's conjecture at this point, but so is projecting the exact same layout we have now.

---

Even if it does, Shadowbringers will be the smallest amount of content that plans that way. There is still levels 1-70 to consider, and all of that is and will remain brain numbingly boring.

Dude leveling is never the highlight of these games. 1-60 is boring in this expansion and 1-50 was boring in HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

Even if it does, Shadowbringers will be the smallest amount of content that plans that way. There is still levels 1-70 to consider, and all of that is and will remain brain numbingly boring.

---

I'm not really sure what that has to do with Afflatus Misery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Dude leveling is never the highlight of these games. 1-60 is boring in this expansion and 1-50 was boring in HW.

---

But it's also the largest chunk of gameplay.

If the thing you spend the most time on is admittedly "Boring", perhaps it should be changed so it's less boring, not MORE boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But we know from the media tour that there's a higher demand for party healing in both the level 73 dungeon, and in the Titania fight. WHM has 3 ways to heal the entire Party: Assize, Plenary Indulgence, and Medica II ticks. How are we sure that the demand isn't going to require more frequent Afflatus Rapture casts, even after geared?

Sure it's conjecture at this point, but so is projecting the exact same layout we have now.

---

Quite honestly, no we don't. In both the lvl 73 dungeon and the titania fight, healers were doing their filler spells a LOT.

Hell, even the trusts were DPSing a lot. That says something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I'm not really sure what that has to do with Afflatus Misery.

---

It only does in the sense of the kit as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

It only does in the sense of the kit as a whole.

---

That wasn't really what I was talking about though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

But it's also the largest chunk of gameplay.

---

And? It's pretty much a given in mmos that your toolkit is gonna be simpler and even more dumbed down in lower level content by virtue of not having fully progressed your class yet. Just because you dont have miasma and energy drain in Satasha anymore doesn't mean you won't still be spamming ruin most of the time anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

But it's also the largest chunk of gameplay.

If the thing you spend the most time on is admittedly "Boring", perhaps it should be changed so it's less boring, not MORE boring.



Quite honestly, no we don't. In both the lvl 73 dungeon and the titania fight, healers were doing their filler spells a LOT.

Hell, even the trusts were DPSing a lot. That says something.

---

the trust also stopped dsping and healing when they moved out of aoes and anything that would confuse their AI.. so trust aren't the most trust worthy thing to go by here. They were NOT maxing on anything. If anything the person you qouted was more correct since Merry - another youtuber at the media- tried to pull wall to wall and died for it. Cause yes.. they hit him harder in that same dungeon, making him and his healer be more careful. This is yet anothe example of people who has gone to the media and have said things that everyone isn't listening too. It's better to just wait honestly... cause if your go to is AIs who don't max or play like any player would be.. then you might as well use the squads as your examples. >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No, actually. Lilies remained near completely worthless the whole expansion—so much so new WHMs were told to just move the gauge somewhere hidden and ignore it. Regardless, you keep arguing in fallacies. Just because something was changed eventually does not absolve criticism. It should not have taken two years to address Machinist; those issues making it the least popular job by a considerable margin. This sets a precedence, which we can indeed call back on. A real life equivalent would be that friend who always says they will do such and such a thing yet never do—or they do it only after being hounded at constantly for months and months. After a while, do you still ask them to do you favors or do you deem then unreliable based on precedence? Welcome to how people feel regarding FFXIV. The dev team has a notorious history of either delaying changes for ages or stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the issues... until they wind up caving anyway.

---

Ironically, the very beginning of your statement is a straw man fallacy. I did not say Lillies changed for the better or became useful. I did not say things changing "eventually" absolves criticism.

I'm not even saying things will change. I am saying that your pre-launch "feedback" is completely and utterly pointless. Squeenix will only take into account post-launch feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

People aren't referencing Stormblood to say "Neener, neener, I was right! See?! I wIn ThE InTeWeBs!!!!!!" They're pointing to the aforementioned precedence set to explain why they no longer have confidence they changes will happen. Or if they do, it won't happen with any haste.

---

Yes, they are. They are saying "I was right in Stormblood and I am right again with Shadowbringers". This is not even feedback, it's just venting frustrations. Which is even more pointless than the already pointless pre-launch feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

The bottom line is that we're going to be stuck with healing downtime. If SE makes another MMO they'll be able to review the entire system, but until then that's how things are.

The current situation is that downtime is basically using 3 main dps skills and having another toolkit to weave. AST has cards to weave, SCH has dps skills to weave, WHM has nothing (and WHM have been asking for this for a while now). Obviously moving forward AST retains some version of this, SCH has traded those DPS skills for faerie skills and the complaint is that we will not need to use them that often so it's a downgrade to gameplay (that and some incorrect potencies will make gameplay clunky), and WHM still doesn't have anything.

There have been quite a few viable suggestions in the forums about what to do with that downtime. Imagine AST having cast time to their cards and draws etc.. So long as the cards provide higher support than the personal dps lost from drawing and using them, you'll make use of them. This significantly reduces the amount of downtime spent DPSing and makes AST feel more like a healer and support than a glorified DPS.
The thing is, SE either doesn't care for that kind of design, can't come up with options for the other healers, thinks it's too big of a change, etc.. etc.. Instead they decided to try and force us into healing with things like not having a stack dump, or using lilies on healing before you can use the extra dps skill, etc.. Obviously these skills will just overheal or not be used (based off of ultimate healing numbers). Hence where we are now.

---

Obviously you cannot completely remove healing downtime, it's an unrealistic thing to expect.

You're read some of my other posts in which I say why I think ED is the only ability we lost that is worth anything. Having a few different dps buttons to press (in the case of SCH) does not change much of anything. Healing downtime remains the same and all you're left with is dps button bloat. If Miasma, Miasma II and Shadow Flare changes your perception of healer gameplay from snoozefest to engaging, then you'd probably be better served playing a dps class.

The likelihood of them adding a complex dps rotation to healers is very low. I don't care about these 3 skills and their removal makes me optimistic. It's easier to come up with something new when you don't have to fit it into an existing mess.

Returning to downtime - the AST suggestion sounds good. I still think different content design to reduce downtime, which may or may not happen for Eden, is one of the most important things.

But this sort of discussion is better saved for post-launch feedback, when it actually matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That wasn't really what I was talking about though.

---

It’s still important to note.