It's past time, Yoshi-P...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Unfortunately, this game has no curve. It jumps from laughably easy to occasionally moderate to extreme.

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This is pretty much the perfect TLDR for the point I was trying to make a page earlier <3

Early ARR had a curve but I guess the devs lost their nerve with the Pharos Sirius backlash and have never gotten it back since.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

My 2 cents:

Tanking roulettes is an exercise in frustration, you have arguably the most responsibility but you get the least reward for playing above par. An incredible tank will enable a good group to do great things in dungeons, but if the group is awful, there's not a huge amount you can do about it beyond adjusting the pace accordingly.

Healing can also be rather frustrating, but IMHO the gameplay is far more rewarding across a much broader range of groups. *snip*

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Sebazy! /joy

Wait. We're talking about tanking now? Cool!

I agree with your assessment. Healing is much more rewarding due to its ability to adapt to the proficiency of the rest of the players in a group. Tanking cannot carry a group quite the same way.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

My 2 cents:

Tanking roulettes is an exercise in frustration, you have arguably the most responsibility but you get the least reward for playing above par. An incredible tank will enable a good group to do great things in dungeons, but if the group is awful, there's not a huge amount you can do about it beyond adjusting the pace accordingly.

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Tanking in this game is braindead. Being a good tank just means being overgeared for the content, staying in DPS stance as much as possible, and popping the correct cooldown for the single big hits that come infrequently. Tanks don't have to stun, they rarely tank swap, they have very little positioning duties, and tank enmity management is the cotank hitting shirk and the main tank adding their enmity combo in as little as possible. Many times your co-tank is just there as a fifth DPS.

Tanking in dungeons is just knowing the proper times to stop running, and managing your resource bars to use your aoe attacks proper, while hoping the healer can keep up with you. The "amazing" things is at best a minute shaved off the total time of a run, and that's only if the healer can handle you pulling wall to wall. Tanks are probably the easiest job to play in this game in most content.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Yup. Remember back when MP management was a thing? Good times. Things have gotten simpler over time, and now we're in a situation where spells like Cure don't really have a purpose because there's no reason to use it over Cure 2 except MP efficiency... which doesn't matter since it's so easy to never run out of MP (unless you're casting Raise a lot).

On the healer end, the biggest problem is that healing is too strong relative to HP pools. You can burst a party from 1HP to full in a matter of seconds, at which point if they're not getting blasted back down immediately, you're done. A rebalance on this end would need an across the board HPS nerf, but they've been going the opposite direction all of Stormblood.

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Blizzard attempted to address the exact same problem. They nerfed healing spells and mana pools so the party had to work with the healer to get through the content. Sadly, it was a disaster because tanks and damage dealers refused to change their ways leading to numerous wipes and kicking of healers. This in turn led to the Great Healer Drought.™

Now, with that said, I think there is something to the idea. Surely, wouldn't the game be improved by reining in the power of our heals? This gathering of all the mobs and running to the boss is an abomination. I'd love for crowd control to be a thing in our dungeons. In other words, instead of everyone being focused on dealing the most damage, how about being focused on our roles and teamwork?

As for DPS, I don't see a lot of rage at tanks or healers. It's not an epidemic. I don't however like the constant cries to make things harder for the noobs because reasons. It doesn't make it much more fun if casual content becomes the "run a single fight all the way up to the timer until you learn how to beat it" model EX content uses; i tried that, and once I cleared the last thing I wanted to do is farm it for tokens.

The game's difficulty is all right for most people, no need to change much.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As for DPS, I don't see a lot of rage at tanks or healers. It's not an epidemic. I don't however like the constant cries to make things harder for the noobs because reasons. It doesn't make it much more fun if casual content becomes the "run a single fight all the way up to the timer until you learn how to beat it" model EX content uses; i tried that, and once I cleared the last thing I wanted to do is farm it for tokens.

The game's difficulty is all right for most people, no need to change much.

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I don't feel anyone is asking for things to get harder for the newbies. It's two issues.

There is too much emphasis on dealing damage. This has led many tanks and healers to complain because they want to focus on their roles, not be judged on their ability to deal damage.

The other issue is there is no difficulty curve. You have a lot of easy content then suddenly you are thrown into difficult content.

I think what a lot of people are failing to see, is that SE wants the majority of the game to be accessible.

The hardcores out there have their Extreme, Savage, and the PF-Only raids.

Now, there is a valid complaint that in this Extreme/Savage content, the healers and DPS are forced to dish out as much DPS as possible. But if they change that, then they make the game not fun for the vast majority who are NOT doing the Extreme/Savage content.

I, for one, do not want my experience tarnished because of the hardcore crowd who feel the game is "too easy". I like the fact that a large portion of the game's content is easy. I play for some relaxed fun, not to be sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm just not into that kind of stuff. Call me a carebear, casual, noob, whatever you wanna call me. Go ahead, it's fine. I'm not a pro, and I never claimed to be.

But please don't go nerfing the part I love most about FFXIV, because if you do that... then you kill what makes the game fun in the first place for me and many others like me.

Now, IF they can find some way to change Savage/Extremes, where heals are more important than DPS races, WITHOUT altering the rest of the grouped content... then have at it! I just don't want my stuff suddenly nerfed because of what the hardcores are complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Call me a carebear

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What color though?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I think what a lot of people are failing to see, is that SE wants the majority of the game to be accessible.

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Why does accessible have to be braindead though? Shinryu normal is probably one of the better fights they have done in a while and it can be four maned in 290 gear. People asking for better scaled difficulty aren't demanding Savage or Ultimate levels. You know what's fun? Bardem's Mettle in Shire gear. I actually have to heal and pay attention whereas a moderately geared tank/healer can mega pull and call it done.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

The hardcores out there have their Extreme, Savage, and the PF-Only raids.

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Except, we don't. Look no further than Deltascape, which is even easier than Creator. Alte Roite is so poorly tuned, it's been killed with a full party in ilvl 290 gear and Vit melds. The first tier Savage boss is scaled 30 ilvls below the lowest relevant raid gear. Likewise, Susano and Lakshmi EX were pitifully easy. This is why so many even midcore players are frustrated by some of the content. The devs keep making everything easier to accommodate people who can't be bothered to put forth an effort to improve. Imagine if the normal modes were decently challenging but still reasonable for those uninterested in higher end stuff. At that point, we'd have a proper stepping stone for those looking to test themselves further and those satisfied with a difficult, but decent fight instead of blowing through normal mindlessly and moving on to an increasingly easier Savage.

You want to relax and just play the game at a casual pace. Great! I wish you all the enjoyment. Just don't come into Savage and complain it's too hard. Not saying you, specifically, would. Just that people do, and the devs listening to their whining.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Imagine if the normal modes were decently challenging but still reasonable for those uninterested in higher end stuff. At that point, we'd have a proper stepping stone for those looking to test themselves further and those satisfied with a difficult, but decent fight instead of blowing through normal mindlessly and moving on to an increasingly easier Savage.

You want to relax and just play the game at a casual pace. Great! I wish you all the enjoyment. Just don't come into Savage and complain it's too hard. Not saying you, specifically, would. Just that people do, and the devs listening to their whining.

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You see, this is what I'd want. I'd even go so far as to make all non-levelling MSQ dungeons not part of the roulettes (perhaps Castrum/Prae could be retuned to solo duties and have these MSQ level cap dungeons such as Antitower moved to MS Roulette, or even retune them all into solo duties?). Make Expert dungeons non-MSQ only and give them some darned challenge. Make Deltascape and the 24-mans harder still. Give Savage its Savage status back, hypertune Ultimate Savage to the max. Those who want the story can have it. Those who want challenge can have it. I'd say everyone's a winner there.

I get it's a Final Fantasy game, but it's also an MMO. Maybe this solution could appease most of the playerbase and avoid this friction?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Blizzard attempted to address the exact same problem. They nerfed healing spells and mana pools so the party had to work with the healer to get through the content. Sadly, it was a disaster because tanks and damage dealers refused to change their ways leading to numerous wipes and kicking of healers. This in turn led to the Great Healer Drought.™

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Yep. I was there for it, and I thought it was great. It didn't work out so well on the lack of healers department, but if healing doesn't have resource management, then why do we have more than two heals (big heal and big aoe heal)?

That said, it was also that way back in vanilla WoW, and it wasn't so bad there in terms of healer numbers. I remember people used to keep multiple ranks of a given heal on their bars so they could minimize the MP usage for the amount of HP needing to be healed. We were of course the only role that would ever do that, but we were the ones with the most resource issues and the only one where "more" isn't necessarily "better" due to overheal. Then we got collectively lazy when it got progressively easier in WotLK (where "spam Circle of healing the entire run" was sufficient for an awful lot of content), and having to do it the hard way again was a big adjustment that some people just didn't want to make.

I mean, stuff like freecure and ehanced benefic II suggest pretty strongly that SE thinks we should be using Cure and Benefic. For some reason they then gave us a system where there's no particular reason to do that most of the time at endgame. Either they didn't intend for what we got and it's just too late to fix it for Stormblood, or the left hand and the right hand need to have a conversation.

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Now, with that said, I think there is something to the idea. Surely, wouldn't the game be improved by reining in the power of our heals? This gathering of all the mobs and running to the boss is an abomination. I'd love for crowd control to be a thing in our dungeons. In other words, instead of everyone being focused on dealing the most damage, how about being focused on our roles and teamwork?

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It should be, yeah. At one point in MMOs, being able to lock down, kite, snare, stun, CC and all that were valuable skills. Yanking stuff off and keeping it busy was a big deal. Pulling extra stuff was bad. Saw this amazing Hunter freeze trap snare one enemy in a pack, kite another, and pet tank a third after the tank died, and it was AWESOME when we turned what should have been a wipe into a win. There isn't a lot of room to do that these days, because even if I do use my CC, so few other players recognize what's happening that they'll probably just AoE and break it immediately.

A lot of gameplay has been cast aside in favor of "round up everything and AoE it", and IMO the genre is lesser for it. We may be in the minority, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I think what a lot of people are failing to see, is that SE wants the majority of the game to be accessible.

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Yep. I get that, and I think it's a good thing. But there needs to be some kind of challenge progression for people to advance upward in challenge, just like in gear. That's where the idea that Expert is too easy is coming from. I mean, it's endgame content and rewards endgame currency. So why it that all of them are easier than Auran Vale is today? I still see groups make mistakes in there that lead to wipes (usually in the first big room). That pretty much doesn't happen in Expert. The Experts right now are for the most part extremely forgiving with little real risk unless everyone's undergeared and doesn't know what they're doing. The leap up from there to stuff like Shinryu Ex and Savage is HUGE. There's people who hit that and simply bounce off of it because there's not a lot in between.

I think people tend to underestimate the player base. Rabanastre came up, and it was a real mess for a while. But the last couple of weeks I've seen a lot of improvement in the average run. If you give the player base a step up in difficulty from what they're used to that isn't a chasm, they can do it. I mean, it's still not nearly as difficult as the hardest content in the game, but it's a significant step up from Kugane Castle. That's closer to where Expert should be.

I will admit that it is a little easy, sure... the newest 4-man dungeon, I did blind without even reading up on the bosses, the mechanics were... rather easy (though the spriggan part of the 2nd boss confused me for a bit, but it is tuned so that the other 3 could completely handle it even if I had zero clue what I was supposed to do, I did eventually notice that I could lay mines and blow the statues up, but that was near the end of the fight).


But yet I don't want them to turn it too far that I'm wiping multiple times per dungeon, because I don't see that as fun, and the playerbase in general just does not have the patience for it. I hate it when people drop group, or try to votekick people or what-not. It slows everything down and adds pressure I don't like.

As it is, I really did not enjoy Shinryu story-mode all that much, not because of my own failings, but mainly because of the common player I was running into. I had to wait until I could get in with a party of veterans (by Qing right after the reset) to actually clear the thing. I didn't find wiping 10+ times on it very fun. I also remember the first few times I did Ala Mihgo or that laboratory, the last bosses in both of those were a bit annoyingly difficult if you were at leveling gear when you first got there, back when people were still learning it.

I think part of the problem with most dungeons being too easy, is that the item-levels are jumping too high too fast. You do Ala Mihgo when you've got about 290 and it's OK for difficulty... oh but wait, now Omega and the newest dungeon drops 315-320. Go back into Ala Mihgo and you steamroll the place because you're 30 I-level above what you're supposed to be for there.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I think what a lot of people are failing to see, is that SE wants the majority of the game to be accessible. *snip*

I, for one, do not want my experience tarnished because of the hardcore crowd who feel the game is "too easy". I like the fact that a large portion of the game's content is easy. I play for some relaxed fun, not to be sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm just not into that kind of stuff. Call me a carebear, casual, noob, whatever you wanna call me. Go ahead, it's fine. I'm not a pro, and I never claimed to be.

But please don't go nerfing the part I love most about FFXIV, because if you do that... then you kill what makes the game fun in the first place for me and many others like me.

Now, IF they can find some way to change Savage/Extremes, where heals are more important than DPS races, WITHOUT altering the rest of the grouped content... then have at it! I just don't want my stuff suddenly nerfed because of what the hardcores are complaining about.

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Maeka, looking through this thread, you'll see few hard core players. Hell, I'm not even in Heavensward yet. So, that makes me pretty much a care bear too. :D

Cutting through all the noise, what I see is a group of players who are more committed to the game than your off the street casual player who are attempting to nail down the source of their discontent.

Personally, I like the fact that a lot of the content is easy also. But, it does feel off.

Healing should be more about decision making while healing aka triage. Tanking should be more than grabbing all the mobs in a dash toward the next boss for the damage dealers. Damage dealing should be more than pushing a certain sequence of buttons over and over.

In other words, many posters want the game to be more engaging.

Surely, S.E. can manage to do this without making the game so hard that us carebears will no longer enjoy the game. As you said, the game must be accessible to the majority of players and those are the casuals.

I suspect what it all comes down to is some tweaking of the abilities. A little less healing power, mobs hitting a touch more, and crowd control being more powerful in PvE than it is now. Of course, this'll need testing to get the numbers right but none of this is an overhaul of the existing game.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I think what a lot of people are failing to see, is that SE wants the majority of the game to be accessible.

The hardcores out there have their Extreme, Savage, and the PF-Only raids.

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There’s nothing wrong with content being accessible, but there is something wrong when “accessibility” corresponds with “braindead easy.”

Yeah, the “hardcores” have Extreme, Savage, and now Ultimate, but even those (with the exception of Ultimate) have gotten progressively easier with each tier. Gordias was overtuned, so Midas was tuned down to try and bring back the raid community. But then Creator came out, and it didn’t keep the Midas difficulty, but instead got easier. Deltascape Savage is even easier than Creator. I’m hoping that the next tier of Deltascape isn’t easier than this one, but, bad as this sounds, I don’t have much hope just because of all the complaints I see about how “hard” Deltascape is, or how it’s the “perfect difficulty” for the “hardcores.”

Even the Ex trials are starting to border more on the easier side of the scale (just look at Lakshmi Ex and Susano Ex compared to fights like Thordan Ex and Sephirot Ex—even Shinryu isn’t as hard as Thordan or Sephirot), and Savage is slowly getting to the point where it’s “midcore” content. Again, that’s partially because of the developers failing to tune Gordias correctly, and then having to pick up the pieces of the raiding community that it left behind; and partially because players complain about “content accessibility” and complain about, when they enter Ex or Savage, about how “hard” the content is, and how it needs to be “nerfed” (see the “ShinEx needs to be nerfed” threads).

This is, in part, the developer’s fault for not giving this game a steady increase in difficulty from content like dungeons to “expert dungeons” to 24-man raids to story mode 8-man raids and, finally, to Extreme and Savage. You have “Expert Roulette”, where a player only needs to bang their head against the keyboard to clear it; and then you have things like Rabanastre (the first two bosses aren’t hard, but require people to do more than mindlessly smack it) and V1S (which is slightly harder than the story mode version; same for V2S), where things get a little harder and you kind of need to pay a little more attention to mechanics; and then suddenly the game slaps players in the face with mechanic-heavy fights like V3S, and healer-intense fights like V4S. And those were easier than their predecessors—A11S and Cruise Chaser wipe the floor with Halicarnassus.

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Now, there is a valid complaint that in this Extreme/Savage content, the healers and DPS are forced to dish out as much DPS as possible. But if they change that, then they make the game not fun for the vast majority who are NOT doing the Extreme/Savage content.

I, for one, do not want my experience tarnished because of the hardcore crowd who feel the game is "too easy". I like the fact that a large portion of the game's content is easy. I play for some relaxed fun, not to be sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm just not into that kind of stuff. Call me a carebear, casual, noob, whatever you wanna call me. Go ahead, it's fine. I'm not a pro, and I never claimed to be.

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That’s fine if that’s what you like, but you can’t speak for the rest of the playerbase. Not everyone likes the braindead content; not everyone likes the trend that harder content has, as of late, of getting progressively easier. I don’t care if they leave dungeons the same (they’re dungeons—I do them to cap weekly tomes and that’s about it anymore), but I really wish they would keep Extreme and Savage at that harder difficulty that “the hardcores” like and want. But, there again, when the “hardcores” ask for things to be harder in content that they primarily do, they are attacked by the other side of the community about how the developers should not be “wasting resources” to “cater to the 1%”—just see the threads made about Ultimate.

I’m not really sure what you mean by the first part of this quote—some clarification would be nice, if you don’t mind. Are you just talking about how Extreme/Savage fights don’t have the more intensive healing/tanking that some hardcore players would like, and instead are still more copies of “heal occassionally, put a regen on the MT, now DPS”? If that’s the case, I can agree with making Extreme/Savage fights require more intensive healing to make the jobs more engaging. Rather than it just be “Regen MT, spam Stone IV/Malefic III/Broil II”. But, to do this, they should probably also consider making easier content demand more healing, which I don’t really see as being a bad thing either.

If that’s not what you meant, please do correct me though.

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But please don't go nerfing the part I love most about FFXIV, because if you do that... then you kill what makes the game fun in the first place for me and many others like me.

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I’m not saying this in any way to sound rude, so I apologize if it comes off that way, but the only way the developers could “nerf” the more casual content would be if they made mobs and bosses deal 0 damage to tanks at this point.

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Now, IF they can find some way to change Savage/Extremes, where heals are more important than DPS races, WITHOUT altering the rest of the grouped content... then have at it! I just don't want my stuff suddenly nerfed because of what the hardcores are complaining about.

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I would be perfectly fine if Extremes and Savage had more engaging gameplay for tanks and healers. But that’s not going to happen, because of the sheer amount of people that would complain about it. Because now, they would have to do more than just Netflix and Heal. And like I said above, the developers would probably have to increase healing in the “easier” content to prepare players for what Extreme/Savage is going to bring. Otherwise, you will just have the same complaints we have now: the content demands more, and is therefore “too hard” and “needs to be nerfed”. Because there is no consistent difficulty increase—you have “braindead easy” immediately jump into “oh shit, I actually need to pay attention”.

I wouldn’t see increasing healing requirements in dungeons as being a particularly bad thing, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m not really sure what you mean by the first part of this quote—some clarification would be nice, if you don’t mind. Are you just talking about how Extreme/Savage fights don’t have the more intensive healing/tanking that some hardcore players would like, and instead are still more copies of “heal occassionally, put a regen on the MT, now DPS”? If that’s the case, I can agree with making Extreme/Savage fights require more intensive healing to make the jobs more engaging. Rather than it just be “Regen MT, spam Stone IV/Malefic III/Broil II”. But, to do this, they should probably also consider making easier content demand more healing, which I don’t really see as being a bad thing either.

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That quote was:

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Now, there is a valid complaint that in this Extreme/Savage content, the healers and DPS are forced to dish out as much DPS as possible. But if they change that, then they make the game not fun for the vast majority who are NOT doing the Extreme/Savage content.

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What I meant by this, is that if they change the Extreme/Savage fights to be more healer intensive, then we go more towards what WoW is where a tank goes from 100% to 20% to 100% to 20% every 2-3 seconds. This is NOT fun whatsoever. I HATE that. I refuse to heal in WoW, but I love healing in FFXIV.

If they change it to be that way in Extreme/Savage, then they will probably end up changing it for the rest of the content too and I don't want that. At all.

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I’m not saying this in any way to sound rude, so I apologize if it comes off that way, but the only way the developers could “nerf” the more casual content would be if they made mobs and bosses deal 0 damage to tanks at this point.

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When I said nerf, I meant, nerfing fun by making it harder than I'd like it to be. Perhaps nerf was a bad word to use there.

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I wouldn’t see increasing healing requirements in dungeons as being a particularly bad thing, to be honest.

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I would, but that's because I have "PTSD" (well not really, but you know what I mean) from WoW. Chain-casting heals and doing nothing else is not fun. It's why I don't like undergeared tanks multipulling. Spamming Cure II on the tank nonstop is not fun gameplay.

EDIT: Did you see my post above where I mentioned that Item-Level Climb being too fast as being part of our problems? Running Ala Mihgo at 290 felt mildly stressful during the last boss and very reasonable everywhere else. Getting 320 and doing it again, however, and it's ridiculously easy. Maybe we shouldn't be jumping 30 i-level between Max Level and First-Tier Easy Raid?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

What I meant by this, is that if they change the Extreme/Savage fights to be more healer intensive, then we go more towards what WoW is where a tank goes from 100% to 20% to 100% to 20% every 2-3 seconds. This is NOT fun whatsoever. I HATE that. I refuse to heal in WoW, but I love healing in FFXIV.

If they change it to be that way in Extreme/Savage, then they will probably end up changing it for the rest of the content too and I don't want that. At all.

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The developers don’t have to make it as extreme as 100% to 20% in one hit outside of anything but a tankbuster. But, I feel like healing right now is pretty braindead (I’m talking about just healing; not healing and weaving in DPS). I can agree that spamming Cure II/Benefic II/Physick is extremely boring, but it’s also not engaging when a Regen is enough to keep a tank up until it’s time to refresh it. I have to be able to DPS as a healer in order to feel like playing healers are worthwhile; if I didn’t have that option, I wouldn’t play a healer because the job would be incredibly unengaging and boring.

With the players advocating “healers should only heal”/“I’m a healer and I only heal; I don’t DPS”, I don’t know how they can find such gameplay engaging when you barely have to heal in 90% of the content outside of fights like V3S, V4S, and Ultimate, or how they can argue that “healing is hard” in this game when it really is not. No fight, even the hardest ones (barring Ultimate) demand even 50% healing uptime (I honestly feel like that may be a stretch too, unless you don’t care about overhealing). A good example is, when I run on SCH for things like 8-mans or 24-mans, I can Adlo the MT/Succor the group to prep for AOE damage (or Deploy an Adlo if people stack close enough for it—that doesn’t happen often though :c), Indom if the damage takes 50% or more health from the group...but then, the rest of the time, Eos or Selene can handle the healing, especially Eos with a Roused Whispering Dawn. Healing is only made more challenging by tank failing to mitigate, or when a DPS stands in crap, and that’s not really how it’s supposed to be. At that point, I’m healing because of other people being incompetent, not because the fight actually calls for it.

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When I said nerf, I meant, nerfing fun by making it harder than I'd like it to be. Perhaps nerf was a bad word to use there.

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Fair enough; thanks for the clarification. I still think there should be better difficulty/content scaling in this game though.

Dungeons hardly prepare healers for the “harder” content, and a lot get overwhelmed when they finally enter it. They either give up or join in with the masses that cry for nerfs because Extremes and Savage aren’t like dungeons where they can Netflix at the same time, or where they are used to only putting regens on the tank or letting their fairy handle it.

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I would, but that's because I have "PTSD" (well not really, but you know what I mean) from WoW. Chain-casting heals and doing nothing else is not fun. It's why I don't like undergeared tanks multipulling. Spamming Cure II on the tank nonstop is not fun gameplay.

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Again, spamming Cure II isn’t fun, but neither is the fact that a healer can neglect the skill in a lot of the more casual content, only occasionally touching it and instead spamming another button (Stone IV) or doing nothing at all (the Beloved Netflix Healer). Barring when tanks/DPS are being dumb and not mitigating or standing in the bad. I would like a reason to actually use my healing spells, or like a feeling of having to prep more heals in all forms of content. I feel like it would make it more engaging. And it would actually give “heal-only healers” a leg to stand on, because, as it currently stands, they have none.

Maybe that’s why I like shield healers—I feel more engaged when prepping for incoming damage with shields compared to the “oh, well time to refresh my regen again” feeling I have when playing WHM or Diurnal AST.

Yes, I get what you're saying, I'm just weary of changing it too much.


If you leave it the way it is now, many people find it fun enough that they keep playing, even though some people grumble about being too bored. Sure, that's a bad thing, hey I said I agreed before that it's a bit too easy.

But yet, if we try to fix it and wind up doing it wrong, then you end up screwing the game up for a portion of the playerbase and wham, you might end up losing a bunch of subs overnight and I can't say that would be good for the game either.

It's a fine line that they're walking with this, and if they're going to do something I REALLY hope they are careful with it. And again. Item Level Creep.

It's too freaking high. That, or we need better I-Level restrictions on some of the older dungeons (Kugane Castle and Ala Mihgo mainly). Yes, I will agree that these two are just too ridiculously easy. A tank should not be able to pull 3 groups and survive. Bosses should not be dying almost before they get to complete their full AI script, and invulnerability phases should not be required to prevent a boss from dying too fast to complete it's full list of mechanics.

However, I don't see the current healing model as being the sole culprit. Item Level Creep (or the I-Level Sync is too lax either/or) is a part of it too, I feel. Healers doing too much DPS is also a part of it, I mean, the amount of damage they do per ability.

If you took Kugane Castle or Ala Mihgo, and shaved off, say, 20% of a healer's DPS output per-ability and shave off, say, 15 I-Level off the maximum I-Level allowed for the zone... you'd bump up the challenge significantly. The tanks would be taking more damage (due to having 15 less I-level) and the healers would be putting out less damage resulting in bosses and trash being alive longer.

Perhaps give healers a trait that makes them do 20% more damage while solo (being with chocobo counts as being solo), and then cut their DPS output by 20%. That way solo play as a healer is not affected, healers can still throw their DPS without breaking the fights and making them cake easy.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Now, there is a valid complaint that in this Extreme/Savage content, the healers and DPS are forced to dish out as much DPS as possible. But if they change that, then they make the game not fun for the vast majority who are NOT doing the Extreme/Savage content.

I, for one, do not want my experience tarnished because of the hardcore crowd who feel the game is "too easy". I like the fact that a large portion of the game's content is easy. I play for some relaxed fun, not to be sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm just not into that kind of stuff. Call me a carebear, casual, noob, whatever you wanna call me. Go ahead, it's fine. I'm not a pro, and I never claimed to be.

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That’s fine if that’s what you like, but you can’t speak for the rest of the playerbase. Not everyone likes the braindead content; not everyone likes the trend that harder content has, as of late, of getting progressively easier. I don’t care if they leave dungeons the same (they’re dungeons—I do them to cap weekly tomes and that’s about it anymore), but I really wish they would keep Extreme and Savage at that harder difficulty that “the hardcores” like and want. But, there again, when the “hardcores” ask for things to be harder in content that they primarily do, they are attacked by the other side of the community about how the developers should not be “wasting resources” to “cater to the 1%”—just see the threads made about Ultimate.

I’m not really sure what you mean by the first part of this quote—some clarification would be nice, if you don’t mind. Are you just talking about how Extreme/Savage fights don’t have the more intensive healing/tanking that some hardcore players would like, and instead are still more copies of “heal occassionally, put a regen on the MT, now DPS”? If that’s the case, I can agree with making Extreme/Savage fights require more intensive healing to make the jobs more engaging. Rather than it just be “Regen MT, spam Stone IV/Malefic III/Broil II”. But, to do this, they should probably also consider making easier content demand more healing, which I don’t really see as being a bad thing either.

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This is about where my own hopes sit, too, on the difficulty spectrum. But, ideally, this shouldn't even need to be an equilibrium or best approximation sort of issue.

At present, dungeon and raid difficulties are likely made up of individually arbitrated potency values, specials recast times, and health pools, based around an eyeballed common-sense estimate to fit with precedent or surrounding dungeon/raid design, but that's not to say that the same couldn't be output through a given formula instead. And if that is possible, a huge number of opportunities become affordable.

Consider some of our earlier balances or perspectives into dungeon design:

• Hefty required healing (as opposed to avoidable damage) makes the healer feel a more complete "role", but in turn diminishes (1) unskilled healers' ability to perform their derivative role, (2) the sense of direct applicability of healers (albeit only when leaving virtually no time to DPS at all), (3) the ability for player compositions to skillfully avoid the need for a dedicated healer, as once tuned for, design essentially dead-locks healers into gameplay, which can ultimately reduce opportunities for ingenuity, alternative gameplay improvements, and for reduced queue times between the two.
• Making one given choice of playing in or outside of tank stance optimal in a vastly overwhelming portion of gametime makes the mechanic feel like a gimmick, but removing tank stance diminishes (1) tanks' freedom to open with non-enmity skills, which contributes to variance and strategy, (2) tanks' ability to calculate for and synergize with healer or melee-positional outputs, (3) may likely simply tilt the balance of global usage from primarily utility weaponskills, of which there are typically multiple, and therefore carries variance, to primarily enmity combos, whereby choice or utility are further restricted.

But if a dungeon or raid were able to scale particular mob output and stat values compositionally (relative to your party's composition, or even manual choices of composition-derived difficulty), those tipping points disappear. Rather than facing some negative consequence for each benefit of rebalance, you can play entirely towards or within the strategies that would only benefit in their gameplay from the rebalance. If you take 3 DPS at 1 healer into a dungeon, by default mobs' unavoidable strikes' potency maxima are reduced, as are enemies' CC-resistance, but new burst-requiring mechanics may appear or, where already existent, may be heightened. It becomes, in a sense, a new gameform, despite playing with all the same rules, just by manipulating the mob values involved.

I still say WoW's Mythic+ system offers one of the best casual end game system. Progress in difficulty as far as you can or desire to.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I still say WoW's Mythic+ system offers one of the best casual end game system. Progress in difficulty as far as you can or desire to.

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As much as I'd love to be able to say "going to do +12... as just DPS... *sunglasses*", and have that be a viable (though far from ideal) option, Mythic+, in its simplicity, has been one of the first bits of living proof that casuals and the hardest of hardcore can still be ideally challenged by the same content. It's almost a meme-level counterexample to any point at which someone claims that casual and hardcore content cannot overlap, or are fundamentally different, rather than differing first and foremost in scale (and the rest being derivative).

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I mean, stuff like freecure and ehanced benefic II suggest pretty strongly that SE thinks we should be using Cure and Benefic. For some reason they then gave us a system where there's no particular reason to do that most of the time at endgame. Either they didn't intend for what we got and it's just too late to fix it for Stormblood, or the left hand and the right hand need to have a conversation..

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This may actually even be less an issue of broad design philosophy as just (1) a way to improve the hidden efficiency of Cure I and Benefic I in mana-intensive situations (which have only grown progressively fewer since ARR), or (2) specifically toolkit design issues, primarily due to the undertuned size of those bonuses, and their being overly dependent on RNG.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Excellent job on both the personal attacks and completely misunderstanding my point.

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At least it seems to have worked as you finally understood that the current design is not a flaw just because of your subjective opinion on it.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

An addendum that is entirely beside the point I was making, and I will hope that noting such here will make it clear to certain people that again, it is not related to my statements above: The current healer meta is, in my opinion, dull. Periodic bursts of damage that are healed up in one or two GCDs in 8-man content, or damage so low and steady that all I have to do is maintain an aspected benefic on the tank in 4-man content =/= engaging healing content. I main AST because at least I have the addition of managing cards, but even that's just a couple GCDs here and there. The vast majority of my time is spent spamming a single damage nuke and occasionally refreshing a dot. Not exactly exciting.

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I understood your point from the very first post you made, which is why I expressed my incomprehension over the fact that you play a game which doesn't fulfill your preferences. You then got triggered for whatever reason and went "I don't need to justify myself to you! REEEEEEE! This game is flawed! Expectations!" (to summarize). And then I had to repeat myself three times while throwing some childish sarcasm at you because nothing else worked.

FFXIV has some similarities with other games, but it's not WoW, it's not Rift, it's not Wildstar. And it never will be. You already know it. You know that asking for such a drastic change is completly ridiculous. Yet, you still made the choice of playing the game and its healer jobs (no, sorry, just AST it seems when it comes to Stormblood) despite the fact that you don't like that system. People won't pity you for playing a game with an aspect you dislike, because you made your own choice of playing it regardless. And the game won't change one of its core design just for a few people like you who can't detach themselves from WoW-clones. In short, I have absolutly no idea what people like you expect when voicing their displeasure in such a way. You're pretty much just venting for the sake of it (edit: nothing wrong with that btw, as long as you present it that way).

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Now, there's one thing that I have to question you about: what is the most difficult content you've ever done in FFXIV? The way you speak about what you do when healing and your lodestone profile scream that you have absolutly no experience regarding anything past expert roulette.
I hope I'm wrong and that you're posting with an alt or something, because if that's really true, then you just lost all credibility for obvious reasons.

So please tell me you already play the current available content which would fulfill your needs about healing being more focused on... well, healing. (Otherwise I'm clearly being trolled and wasted some time already. If that's the case, well, good job. I completly fell for it.)


__________


@everyone: I want to remind you all that if you are looking for content which focus 100% on healing when you play AST, SCH or WHM, you can already find it in FFXIV. All you have to do, is head to Wolves' den.
You'll also be happy to know that there's a new mode about to hit on thuesday, which is definitly for people who would like some PvE elements instead of strict head-to-head combat.
Yes, it's PvP. But it's still content where you can express your true nature of a "pure healer" without anyone telling you anything about it. In fact, if you are a great "pure healer" you'll actually be praised. How awesome is that.
Fly my pretties, and show the world how you heal.

It looks like the thread has ran off on a tangent because some people mistaken the idea of role differences with difficulty, just like how some people are clearly mistaking playstyle preference and playskill abilities.

It's not about making things more difficult. It's about making tanks focus more on enmity and mitigation than on dps. Gearing choices and rotations of a tank should first and foremost be enmity and survivability considerations, and that doesn't necessarily have to make the game harder.

The proposition is to make it so that gearing and rotation choices are made based on enmity and survivability goals, not on pure dps potential. How it can be achieved is up to the devs. It also doesn't necessarily mean that tanks will have to do less dps. If you think so you need to shed your dps meta mindset and realize that dps is just a result of potency tuning, and any and all designs can be tuned to provide high or low dps.

Content can still be "easy", for those who are worried about casual play. And tanking can still be "hard", for those with the strange notion that high tanking dps is somehow good playskill.

Not a full solution, but what if SE were to tighten iLvl caps? Using Expert, for example. Ala Mhigo was rough my first time in my i290 gear, as was Shinryu normal. Now I can stomp both with impunity. While some of that can be attributed to experience, I have to think my i338 gear has a weeeee bit to do with it.

So I wonder, if there was a tighter iLvl limit, would it help make it feel more chalenging?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

It looks like the thread has ran off on a tangent because some people mistaken the idea of role differences with difficulty, just like how some people are clearly mistaking playstyle preference and playskill abilities.

It's not about making things more difficult. It's about making tanks focus more on enmity and mitigation than on dps. Gearing choices and rotations of a tank should first and foremost be enmity and survivability considerations, and that doesn't necessarily have to make the game harder.

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With regards to the bolded statement, the only way to improve on tank enmity and mitigation rather than just focus on “tank DPS” would be to scale content and make it “harder”/more difficult—make things hit harder, make tanks actually have to use their tank stances for mitigation/aggro, and be more proactive with their cooldown rotation.

As it stands now, even in Neo, tanks just need to pop a cooldown for the harder attacks like Aero, Earthshakers, or Double Attack; they don’t even need to be in their tank stance for it. With aggro resets, tanks can easily grab hate back from the WHM heal spam post-Almagest with MT-Provoke and OT-Provoke/Shirk. If you have a NIN in the group, Shade the MT, Smoke the WHM, and the MT never has to think about entering Shield Oath/Defiance/Grit. Consistent Provoke-Shirking on the OT’s part only makes it even more easier.

DRK, as flawed and in-need-of-help as the job is now, can hold aggro easily by just spamming Unleash over and over again without even being in Grit because of the enmity multiplier on the skill. But such a gameplay is incredibly boring, hence why a lot of tanks turn to their own personal DPS and stance-dancing. Because outside of their regular cooldown rotation, there isn’t need for much else, and I can understand their need to make the job more engaging.

Honestly, the only content where tank stance is needed is in dungeons with mega-pulls. Other than that, holding aggro is incredibly easy with a diligent tank, even more so if DPS and healers are mindful of their own enmity generation and control it as needed with enmity quellers and dumps; and things just don’t hit hard enough to warrant staying in stance 100% of the time.

I've been mulling over things, and I've had a potential idea for how SE could approach if they did actually decide to change it.

You know how in certain solo duties you get that "Breaking limits in a way only a Warrior of Light can" (for example, providing a 100% uptime powerful regen on tanks and DPS, and I'm not sure what on healers)? What if they retuned the DPS of healers and tanks to be garbage, made it so mitigation and healing was much harder, but in order to allow progression in solo content, that buff just shows up more often? With it being retweaked to allow for more damage from tanks and healers too. That would allow them to crush this "DPS meta" without breaking solo duty. Should they do it? I'm on the fence, as much as I'd love to see it, I fear it may end up being detrimental to the game. But, if they DID decide to pursue it, this is how they could do it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

the only way to improve on tank enmity and mitigation rather than just focus on “tank DPS” would be to scale content and make it “harder”/more difficult

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I disagree. As a very simplistic example, we can make tanking enmity equivalent to tanking dps, i.e. by removing the damage penalty and making different stances suitable for tanking different things, then removing enmity bonuses and changing "enmity vs dps rotations" to "single target vs aoe rotations". Give tanks a moderate innate enmity bonus if you want to make life easier for leveling and entry level content.

You think there's only one way because you're thinking of minor adjustments, minor tunings based on the existing framework. I'm talking about a change to the core design itself.

Or more elaborate design changes can be made such that tank damage output becomes a derivative of enmity established on targets, instead of having enmity being a derivative of damage done on targets.

Mitigation can be elevated into mostly a strategic decision, i.e. gearing choices, and keeping the scripted cooldown schedules for the sake of assisting with encounter design. Secondary stats could work differently for tanks, with Tenacity giving passive mitigation, SkS reducing cooldown time, Crit giving a chance of randomized mitigation effect (e.g. one out of 3 different mitigation effects like "10% less damage for 5 seconds"/"shield worth 10% of healing received within 5 seconds"/"parry and block mitigates extra 25% damage for 5 seconds").

As such, I argue that there are possible designs to do what I said.

However, all this may be moot because devs seem happy about where the tanking design is at the moment. So this discussion is mostly academic.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

With the things I've seen people say on this game's forums, it's hard to tell what's serious and what's not.

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Believe me, I know. :D

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I disagree. As a very simplistic example, we can make tanking enmity equivalent to tanking dps, i.e. by removing the damage penalty and making different stances suitable for tanking different things, then removing enmity bonuses and changing "enmity vs dps rotations" to "single target vs aoe rotations". Give tanks a moderate innate enmity bonus if you want to make life easier for leveling and entry level content.

You think there's only one way because you're thinking of minor adjustments, minor tunings based on the existing framework. I'm talking about a change to the core design itself.

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I have to agree here. Core changes greatly delimit our options in this regard. And even beyond them, there's always the question of whether we even need enmity-enhanced tools, as opposed to any other utility or output made available as the nth combo choice, or whether enmity should even be such an unvaried and long-term resource in the first place.

Personally, I'd greatly prefer something that helps sell the idea of a tank just being a greater center of enemy focus -- the most "in your face" of the party -- not just in terms of his or her own personal (enmity) modifiers, but likely also by siphoning off the other's perceived threat to take as his or her own. The extent of that can certainly vary, but simply ensuring that you have x long-term resource lead before attempting something, which (especially with the advent of Shirk and tanks' extant inability to siphon threat, such that you can fight the party's threat rather than just the enmity table's 2nd place) has never been any more interesting, if even ever as interesting, as Darkside's mana drain was in Heavensward. It's a very basic, very stale, and poorly representative way to handle the concept of a tank.

Put simply, though, there's a lot we could do to try to let tanks better embody the idea of being the center of attention if we think outside the limitations of our current enmity system, if only to explore other ideas. Would tanking be somehow "diminished" if rather than simply stacking a derivative value to "higher than #2", mobs were actually capable of refocusing their attention based on unique AI, and you as the tank were often required to intercept their attacks, rather than just holding their attention completely as to deny that complexity (a la meat shield)? Heck, would the overall concept of mitigation be diminished if DPS actually played a more significant part in it, not just through the all-or-nothing killing of enemies, but by being able to suppress, divert, or even kite them?

(You have a skill called Diversion, yet it functions as the exact opposite of its namesake. You have a skill called Shirk, but because of how Provoke works it ends up nothing but derivative-value-padding.)

Sidenote:

One concept I've seen tossed up in the past is to use secondary stats as internal resources with multifaceted use (with Dodge, Block, and Parry being linked to or included among these resources). For instance, let's say we simply have the stats Will (Det+General Miti), Break (Crit+Resist), and Speed (Attack Speed+internal resource regen speed). Now, generally, Will would be expended proportionate to the potencies of one's attacks, averaging out to a neutral regen/loss rate, but it also works against enemy attacks proportionate to the % of HP they'd reduce you by: the larger the hit, the more Will expended to keep you alive, which then has an impact on your damage following the blow. Tanks, at least in tank stance, would have a higher maximum defensive Will expense rate, but given their higher HP margins, they can also get more, defensively, out of that Will stat. Parry, Dodge, and Block, similarly, have strength influenced by current Will, and chances influenced by Break, while their ppm regen according to Speed, just as the regen rates of Will and Break themselves. Now, that would take a lot more internal calculation, but that is an example of where tanking and damage have obvious compromise.

Another such example might be something like a Stagger system, e.g. suppressive fire: just as DPS might then be able to wail on a dangerous enemy to reduce the charge rates of its spells or specials or reduce their potencies on use, tanks would in turn suffer for being the butt of enemy attacks, in rough proportion to how much their advantaging their team by being that (much more efficient) damage sponge. While a DPS could also tank for a time -- and with a certain portion of the threat of enemies being relegated to Stagger, allowing gradually increased damage against you, perhaps even better than they can now -- their smaller health pools, and being therefore more affected by Stagger, would make them more susceptible not only to gradually increasing damage against them, but greater loss to their own damage output, whereas a tank (roughly to what extent his damage is always diminished in exchange for having that higher HP, or his burst diminished for having burst mitigation tools) is more resistant to the output-damaging effects of Stagger.

Bah, seems I missed the 'healer dps' debate...

Oh well...

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

It is not a problem on the direction of the game. It is a problem on the direction of the community. Community is the only responsible of this situation. A community which don't let tank be tanks and healer be healers.

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Actually, the meta is based on the design of the game.
It is the game's design that has brought about the dps meta.

And would require the content designers to adjust how they design their content to change that.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

...
Your "3-5 seconds of downtime" is a complete lie. People already made several videos of them doing nothing but healing through a dungeon to show how much downtime there is and how few healing spells you actually need to cast.
...

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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I think it was Taika who had a 17% active time run of something as a pure healer? That means 83% of their time spent in that dungeon was inactive.
...

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Indeed it was Taika.

And I happen to have the quote available.
Just for posterity...

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yesterday I did some testing on how it really is like to only heal in expert roulette, which I think is a good example because it's content probably ran by majority of player base this discussion is relevant to.

I queued to expert roulette as WHM and we got Xelpathol. In addition to me, the party consisted of a WAR who had never tanked the dungeon before (no endgame experience as WAR), a BLM (his Savage job, currently on A11S progression), and a DRG (no endgame experience as DRG). So quite a random party composition with people more or less familiar with their roles in that dungeon.

The WAR pulled as much as he could at the time (not knowing the dungeon as tank he failed this a couple of times) and I would only use my healing abilities. This was the result, my every single heal cast for the whole 21 min dungeon run:

- Regen x24
- Medica II x16
- Asylum x7
- Assize x4
- Cure II x5 (between pulls, not during them)
- Tetra x4

So in addition to Medica II, the only thing I actually had to cast in the whole dungeon was Cure II, which I did a total of 5 times (between pulls, not during them). Everything else was instant cast abilities. I also used Eye for an Eye on tank and sometimes Esuna, and I cast stoneskin on everyone between pulls.

Even with this little use of healing, my overheal was 35,9%, so the actual healing requirements for this dungeon are even lower. I was active 17% of the whole dungeon while the rest of my group members were active 72-77% of the dungeon.

This is a perfect example of the low healing requirements in the game and how it causes a huge activity difference between a healer who doesn't DPS and their group members. On that run I did not contribute nearly as much as my group members, in fact I was using /icam and doing /mandervilledance while they were actually making an effort. If it would have been the tank or a DD only being active 17% of the time and dancing and idling for the rest, they would have been removed from the party, but for me, some people would actually argue I was doing just fine.

I took a video of the whole run and uploaded it in case someone's interested. This is the final boss fight, during which the only things I actually cast were 3 Medica IIs. Other than that, I used Regen (4), Assize (2) and Asylum (2). Here's the direct link to the fight: https://youtu.be/jBgMe5uHPsE?t=17m17s

TLDR: Not DPSing as a healer means you're just being carried by your group members for over 80% of the dungeon time.

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That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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"I don't like facts that are inconvenient to my narrative, must be untrue despite fflog/video evidence."

C'mon there buddy, I know irrefutable evidence is inconvenient when it's supporting your opposition but to call a perfectly fine example of an experiment by a very respected forum user 'bullshit' is really childish.

Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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I'm showing you mine and the tank's gear at the end of the video if you're interested in checking instead of shouting "BS!" :) All of the tank's gear was from previous patch tier, and my item level was 249 and the patch was 3.4 so available item level was 270 (with 275 weapon). Tank also had never tanked the dungeon before (and didn't play tank in general).

I found the most interesting thing in this experiment was that I didn't need to cast a single Cure spell during any pulls or boss fights (I only casted them a few times between pulls). I did cast Medica II which was the only cast-time ability I used. My overheal % was quite high (in part because of the Medica IIs), so could probably have gotten by with much less healing too.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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Actually it really isn't.

When there was a huge healer debate on the forums here, I made a habit of recording and uploading pretty much every roulette I did. The old Cleric Stance made it especially easy to work out healing vs DPS uptime and I can confirm that even on particularly rough runs, I never saw my CS uptime drop below 80%, with 85-90% being attainable with a decent group. My active rate averaged around 90% which is still the case today and I feel that very little has changed on this front. Bosses can still almost entirely be healed with regen and oGCDS. I'll willingly admit that I throw a few cure IIs here and there during trash pulls but I've found my best results working those lilies leading into Assize where possible.

Amusingly I did a 2 WHM run on Skalla the other day, on the super large pull leading to The Old One (second boss), over the ~50 seconds it took us to kill that we did: 4 regens, 2 cures, 2 tetras, 2 assizes, oh and 4 Aero IIIs and 17 Holys. That's on arguably the largest most annoying trash pull going in current content.

I just ran a 50-60 roulette where: Tank AND healer did more than the MNK. Mnk didn't do his job as dps then. No aoe, didn't keep up demolish on boss fights. Explain to me how the tank never died when the healer did nearly twice as much as the MNK. While the healer did her/his duty as healer while doing a good chunck of damage. Nobody died either, so I need some one of the pro people here to explain to me how this is possible.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

[...] I never saw my CS uptime drop below 80%, with 85-90% being attainable with a decent group. My active rate averaged around 90% which is still the case today and I feel that very little has changed on this front. Bosses can still almost entirely be healed with regen and oGCDS. I'll willingly admit that I throw a few cure IIs here and there during trash pulls but I've found my best results working those lilies leading into Assize where possible.

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wiiiich brings us back to the original purpose of this topic. not IF healers should be dpsing, since we already have cleared this question years ago, BUT if healers should be dpsing this much.

up to 90% dps uptime on a healer is in my eyes not acceptable. this should not be possible.

healing has turned into a dps role with an annoying utility and most boring rotation. rather than throwing dps skills between your heals, wich feels good and rewarding, you have to stop dpsing to throw a heal, wich causes a negative impact on your dps and doesn't feel rewarding in the slightest.

My 2 cents on this is simple.
And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.
Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

And I can tell you right now both paid for it.

That said - all I've said are my expectations/opinions in a RANDOM environment.
Key word... RANDOM.

If your in your private party..you do whatever the hell you want.
But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

Sadly there are a lot of people who couldn't careless and consequences be damned just wreck peoples days. I call these people "randoms" - and I'm VERY anti-random. Solution is to get your own group and hang out and do the things you need to do.

Hope this helps.

But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

PS: There will be situations where someone isn't doing their part - and you end up seeing the "impossible" happen - its called being a damn good player...you adapt..move on. Doesn't excuse people saying "you suck" - you have to be diplomatic about it. Like the Healer tanking cause the tank sucked....it happens. It just goes to show that each job class can do great things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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Cool story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tint

up to 90% dps uptime on a healer is in my eyes not acceptable. this should not be possible..

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But it is. That's how the game is designed. You can do savage and both healers squeeze over 2.5k dps on v1s easy, while BOTH tanks are without tank stance. OgCds are pretty powerful. If The tank drops below 50% hp, tetra popped. Before pulls and you know the boss is doing, let's say 2-3 tail slaps on the MT, you use excog from SCH, which heals for over 600 potency when tank goes below 50%. People who say they are ''true'' healers, doesn't even use their toolkit good as they think they are. The irony is big they think they are great healers, yet they can't even use the tools proppely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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TL;DR version: “#fakenews”

Only because it serves to blow your agenda out of the water.