LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

I think the core problem lies in content scaling, here's why :

All content have a required minimum ilvl to enter. This requirement is supposed to be the lowest ilvl you need to clear that particular content. On top of that, we all know that main stats trump everything (Except your weapon) when it comes to stat scaling.
So, basically, as a DRG, if you enter a content like Susano EX, you're supposed to have 300 ilvl worth of STR.

Now, if we look at tanks, it's completely different. Their "main stat" is supposed to be VIT, if we take into account that it's the only primay stat on accessories that they can "need".
If a tank wears a full i320 left side and all STR accessories, he only have 196ilvl worth of Vitality.

It's just complete nonsense that someone can clear a content with such a low "main stat".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nope. I couldn't care less. 41k, 34k, idgaf what the numbers are so long as the thing dies. Why? How is that fun when I couldn't care less about epeen?

Hell, I turned off floating numbers because it's pretty pointless.

---

If you don't care then why are you even commenting?

How about this. How would half of us DPS feel if we lost one of our primary stats from our gear and scaled of another terribly.
Role skills only do so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

WHM has.
And as WAR Thrill of Battle comes to mind, the effect of that scales with VIT.

---

Lol the funny thing is that thrill of battle is now just used to do more dmg with upheaval

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

WHM, WAR, PLD, AND DRK all have shields that scale off of Vit. Can we have something a tad more relevant to the discussion?

---

Just that ught... i said healers you know... pretty sure WAR, PLD and DRK arent healers...
"TL;DR: We (healers) dont have Heals/shields that scales with target's Hps.... "
But you are right, i forgot about that one skill from WHM that does scale with HP, my bad i tend to ignore everything lily related, cuz lilies...

Really, all it would take is a tweak to Tenacity that makes it not utter crap and you fix tanks for everyone.
Healers don't have to deal with Squish tanks in STR accessories
DPS don't have to worry about ripping hate off tanks that are leveling
Tanks get their DPS back.

From there, they can go about fixing class issues specifically, which are just abysmal right now.

Tenacity is not a solution here. For Tenacity to make up for the damage tanks (who use full Fending accessories) lost from HW to SB it would need to be worth close to 10x as much as any other secondary stat in terms of damage. Which immediately reframes the same problem into a slightly different version, where gear with Tenacity trumps gear at higher iLevels without Tenacity, and where crafted gear pentamelded with Tenacity is BiS compared to any raid gear that isn't Tenacity-capped.

There's no reason to try some clever roundabout solution to the problem. Attack Power just needs to come from tanks' right-side gear, full stop.

What they need to do is add STR to right side at a 60/40 VIT/STR split and increase the scaling to tenacity. That would completely fix tanks but it'll never happen.

@Crater - Yea tenacity is a big part of the solution. It's a scaling stat that with the proper scaling will provide % increases to your DPS with the added bonus of reducing dmg taken. It's far better than STR is if they stop killing the scaling on it. 400 tenacity = like .04% right now which is the big problem. If that 400 tenacity gave 2% dmg dealt/reduced, well then that's a whole nother ballgame.

@Others saying 'tanks must have high hp' - you're trolls. Just stop. Tanks are about reducing/mitigating dmg not being a sponge. You can have a high hp tank and a high defenses tank on the same mob and I can assure you the healers will prefer the guy with more defense because it's easier to heal and more predictable. HP is only needed to compensate for mechanics. Once you have enough it's dps/mitigation every time, all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariyn

400 tenacity = like .04% right now which is the big problem. If that 400 tenacity gave 2% dmg dealt/reduced, well then that's a whole nother ballgame.

---

According to the latest testing, the scaling is roughly 200tenacity=1%. The link was earlier in this thread, I'll link if I find it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

Those aren't the latest. Here they are: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariyn

Tanks are about reducing/mitigating dmg not being a sponge.

---

No. Tanks are here to survive, each by their own means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariyn

You can have a high hp tank and a high defenses tank on the same mob and I can assure you the healers will prefer the guy with more defense because it's easier to heal and more predictable.

---

You realize that defense is totally irrelevant in choosing your accessories since they all give only 1 point, right ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You realize that defense is totally irrelevant in choosing your accessories since they all give only 1 point, right ?

---

Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health. It's harder to heal warriors then paladin. Warriors tank stance is weaker then then other tanks. They have built in mitigation where as wars all they get it more health which they don't really need as well as increased healing which isn't as strong as reducing dmg. The main thing they had was to stance dance and use inner beast to mitigate but now doing that is really hard you would have to have 100 gauge or use infuriate after switching stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health.

---

Pure mitigation vs pure more health, yes. Be we don't have a "main mitigation stat" to chose instead of Vitality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

It's harder to heal warriors then paladin. Warriors tank stance is weaker then then other tanks.

---

The difference is so small it's barely relevant. WARs don't only have more HP, they get healed for more, wich is pretty much the same as receiving less damage. If you take the same base hit against PLD and WAR, they'll end with the same %HP remaining in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Yeah but I think what they are getting at it mitigation is better then having more health.

---

Which is insofar true as that healing scales with mitigation.

Healing 500 on a target that has 0 mitigation means that target has 500 effective HP more. Healing 500 on a target that has 50% mitigation means that target has 1000 effective HP more (Which is why Defiance increases healing received - but IIRC, the bonus doesn't apply to abilities. If so, Defiance would indeed be objectively weaker than the other tank stances).

Therein lies a weakness of health - healers are just far, far better at creating effective HP than gear. That's why nominal health and thereby VIT is relegated to a mere buffer for burst.
#GameDesignRamblings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

No. It. Wont.

DPS and Healers need to manage their own enmity too, and tanks can circle jerk eachother for +56% TOTAL DIRECT enmity every 2 minutes with Shirk. So, no more of this ARR/HW mentality of "Use 1 Rage of Halone in Shjield Oath at the start of the fight then EZ mode tank the rest in Sword Oath, using DPS combos while wearing STR accessories" bullcrap. That's not tanking. That's DPSing with mild tank elements.

Diversion: Reduces enmity generation.
Shirk: Diverts 25% of enmity to target party member.
Tactician: Gradually restores own TPP and the TP of all nearby party members. Reduces enmity generation.
Refresh: Gradually restores own MP and the MP of all nearby party members. Reduces enmity generation.
Shadewalker: Grants target party member the effect of Silhouette, diverting to target 80% of all enmity generated by caster.
Smoke Screen: Creates a wall of smoke, reducing enmity generation of a single party member.
Elusive Jump: Executes a jump to a location 15 yalms behind you, while removing any Heavy or Bind effects.Additional Effect: Reduces enmity by half


LEARN TO USE THEM.

---

This will only happen in fixed parties. Any time I ask a random DPS through DF if they even have diversion equipped I get a response along the lines of "LOL why just tank better".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Splitinfinity

I get that people are dissatisfied with tanks right now ( I'm especially disappointed with how DRK turned out) but is clamoring for the previous vit damage scaling or implementing a similar mechanic to increase DPS really the best solution to this? As you mentioned right now we need to see what the future holds to know if subpar dps will indeed be an issue. And SE heavily implied that this dps reduction was intentional. So why fervently continue to oppose this? Can we not just ask SE to give us a class redesign to make them more fun without resorting to DPS if they insist on the traditional tank model?
But at the end of the day I guess it is SEs fault for giving tanks a taste of that juicy dps meta. And I guess it is the players choice to adapt or to desire the previous meta. Just sad for me that people would rather have a dps tank than ask SE to redesign tanks to be more fun while being more in line with traditional mmo tanks

---

DRK needs changes period, but something must be done about tanks in general, and for me it is accessories getting STR.

This is the only game I became a tank main and it is because unlike the other MMO I spent a lot of time in Tank damage was not utterly miserable in this game. You could make a worthwhile contribution to clears as well as not suffer through solo content taking 2 minutes to kill a lowly creature in a single player instance.

If they want to change the game to another cookie cutter trinity system MMO ripoff where tanks do 20-30% the damage of a DPS, I'm out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Therein lies a weakness of health - healers are just far, far better at creating effective HP than gear. That's why nominal health and thereby VIT is relegated to a mere buffer for burst.

---

That's why I think basic healing spells should be less powerful. Basically, max HP should matter by delaying the need for powerful healing CD as much a possible. If a WHM can fullheal you in 2-3 GCD, Benediction is not that powerful considering its CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Pure mitigation vs pure more health, yes. Be we don't have a "main mitigation stat" to chose instead of Vitality.

The difference is so small it's barely relevant. WARs don't only have more HP, they get healed for more, wich is pretty much the same as receiving less damage. If you take the same base hit against PLD and WAR, they'll end with the same %HP remaining in the end.

---

You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

That would depend on heals vs dmg. If the attack has a higher number then a heal then mitigation is better. I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

---

I don't know the math behind it, but someone once posted that WAR's are about 4% more difficult to heal to full health than PLD/DRK. This difference is supposed to be made up by the WARS self heals though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

You got vit and the i270 str which I used through ex Susano ex lakshmi and delta 1-4.

That would depend on heals vs dmg. If the attack has a higher number then a heal then mitigation is better. I'm not a healer but I asked my friend who is and told me that healing war is different then healing paladins because of how much mitigation they have.

---

Your friend is wrong. A WAR sitting in Defiance not popping any cooldowns and a PLD sitting in Shield Oath not popping any cooldowns will be nearly identical to heal. There's an extremely small healing received difference because Defiance is only +20% healing instead of +25% and it doesn't affect abilities like Lustrate, but the difference is so small that it should be unnoticeable in any fight. Cooldown usage is identical on both too: a WAR with Defiance+Rampart receives the same damage as a PLD with Shield Oath+Rampart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Your friend is wrong. A WAR sitting in Defiance not popping any cooldowns and a PLD sitting in Shield Oath not popping any cooldowns will be nearly identical to heal. There's an extremely small healing received difference because Defiance is only +20% healing instead of +25% and it doesn't affect abilities like Lustrate, but the difference is so small that it should be unnoticeable in any fight. Cooldown usage is identical on both too: a WAR with Defiance+Rampart receives the same damage as a PLD with Shield Oath+Rampart.

---

Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragology

I don't know the math behind it, but someone once posted that WAR's are about 4% more difficult to heal to full health than PLD/DRK. This difference is supposed to be made up by the WARS self heals though.

---

Storms path it's 250 potency with a 88.4% healing at lv 70

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

---

the pasive extra mitigation give you a visual impact of they effectiveness, the HP increse no, but both are balance so both tanks die in the extact number of hits without excepcion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falar

This will only happen in fixed parties. Any time I ask a random DPS through DF if they even have diversion equipped I get a response along the lines of "LOL why just tank better".

---

I totally have Diversion equipped as RDM... why, I actually NEED it sometimes. Hahaha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Really? Because I'm under the impression that that is an attack with 30k hits then a heal at 20k. With 20% mitigation that's 24k dmg with the a heal that would be 4k. With 20% healing the dmg is 30k with a 24k heal which is 6k. So mitigation is better right? Or am I crazy?

---

Assume a WAR and PLD have 30k hp base. PLD has Shield Oath, WAR has Defiance for 37.5k hp total and +20% healing.

PLD taking 30k damage mitigates it to 24k damage, leaving them with 6k hp (20%). WAR takes the full 30k, leaving it at 7.5k (20%).

PLD gets healed for 20k and ends up at 26k hp (86.7%). WAR gets healed for 24k and ends up at 31.5k (84%).

There is an incredibly small difference that won't be noticed by any healer, and it's caused because Defiance's boosted healing is slightly weaker than it should be, not because mitigation is automatically better. You don't need to change how you heal depending on what tank you get, as long as they're using comparable cooldowns. If Defiance's healing was boosted to 25% the numbers would be identical.

A tank doing any amount of dps doesn't bother me at all same goes for any healer. What really sets me off about the whole situation is neglecting there job to do it. I capped a dps first yes working my drk now. I can't tell you how many times I've died from tanking while a healing tunnel dps. It's always whoops. And the comment about there's so many dps you see more bad dps because of the amount of them but if you compare numbers I've seen just ad many bad tanks and healers. If fact happened last night to me. Susana ex couldn't even get the dps check from the off tank letting orbs kill 2 to 3 dps each time. Why so he could hot the damn sword also. Tank dps hell ya I felt like the beginning 60s for drk was never gonna end took forever to kill shit. Great tank will do there job and dps well but there's a way higher percentage of tanks thou who cannot and wipe groups for it. That's probably why it's being change for the norm.

I think a lot of the problems with what SE is trying to do stems from the way the content itself is designed. All other Tank issues aside, its baffling to me that SE somehow designed content where it's even possible for us to wear accessories 50ilvls lower than what the content is designed for, while in dps stance and still effectively tank. To me, that is a failure in FFXIV's design. It shouldn't even be possible to do, yet it is. It just shows how bad VIT is as a main stat. If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inuakurei

If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

---

From what I've seen until now, I'd say that healers have a higher heal per second than bosses' DPS, as long as they don't run out of MP, so, of course, max HP is not very relevant. That's something that should be changed. If, for example, healers do 2000 HPS, then bosses should do 2050 DPS. This way, it would be a race between who kills who first.

It's clearly visible in PvP (at least before 4.0). It doesn't matter which job you have, if you try to kill a single target supported by a healer, you'll fail...all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

If Defiance's healing was boosted to 25% the numbers would be identical.

---

Frankly, with the new state of WAR's healing capabilities, I wonder why it wasn't changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inuakurei

I think a lot of the problems with what SE is trying to do stems from the way the content itself is designed. All other Tank issues aside, its baffling to me that SE somehow designed content where it's even possible for us to wear accessories 50ilvls lower than what the content is designed for, while in dps stance and still effectively tank. To me, that is a failure in FFXIV's design. It shouldn't even be possible to do, yet it is. It just shows how bad VIT is as a main stat. If SE really wants us to wear VIT accessories, they need to make it so that the content demands us to do so, because right now it just doesn't.

---

There's a couple of things that enable it.

1) Mobs not hitting hard enough: This means you can survive when not in your defensive stance, thus devaluing it in the eyes of the player.
2) MP conservation not being a thing for healers: This means despite making yourself take more damage than you should, you're not an MP sponge on the healer. So a tank making themselves take more damage is not berated for wasting the healer's MP.
3) Inherent enmity bonuses: One of the things that helps set tank stances apart from their damage counterparts is that they tend to be key to holding aggro in addition to survival. Simply put, no tank stance = no aggro generation = mob is not focusing on you. This is circumvented because SE decided to have stances enter the game very late instead of between the lv10-15 range, which led to the devs implementing the aggro combos as we currently know them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's why I think basic healing spells should be less powerful.

---

Honestly, I doubt you can make healing so weak that your actual health buffer matters without making healers very sad puppies.

The healing done by healers is in the millions. Even just one million healing is 20 times as much as your puny health buffer provides - if you have 50k health. Real healing numbers are probably closer to 2-2,5 million for an EX fight without overheal. You could nerf healing by 50% across the board and the health buffer from VIT would still be... cute in comparison.

Going over DPS vs HPS can work, but it has one glaring issue: HPS is gear and skill reliant. That means people above the minimum gear and skill will be able to negate the surplus you gave the boss to make it a race and thereby negate the entire race, making HP a dead stat again. That also assumes healing and damage are constant streams, while the game typically uses burst moments instead.

Honestly? I don't consider health as a stat salvage-able in the trinity set-up. Not without completely neutering healers. So either they keep it as the otherwise useless burst buffer nobody wants it is now, make the damage scale off VIT/Health, or they ditch the concept of VIT accessories entirely and just buff the tank stances or cooldowns to compensate for the loss of assumed EHP.

But knowing them, they'll probably just buff enmity modifiers and lock all accessories, because that is the worst possible solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

That means people above the minimum gear and skill will be able to negate the surplus you gave the boss to make it a race and thereby negate the entire race, making HP a dead stat again.

---

Reduce the need ? Sure. Negate it completely ? Bad content scaling. It's exactly the same for DPS. If you have more skill, you'll manage to clear with minimul ilvl (Or even lower, if the content is heavily based on mechanics more than numbers), but I really doubt the most skilled DPS can defeat the new "Stone,Sky,Sea" with 5 i270 VIT accessories.

You know what could be interesting ? Make the dummy attack you when you try to defeat it as a tank. On top of killing it, you'd also have to survive on your own...and it would allow reactive skills to be used. They could even add an NPC you have to heal when you do the test as a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

2) MP conservation not being a thing for healers: This means despite making yourself take more damage than you should, you're not an MP sponge on the healer. So a tank making themselves take more damage is not berated for wasting the healer's MP.

---

It's already been said multiple times in this thread, but apparently it needs to be said again: a tank wearing strength accessories does not take more damage than a tank wearing vitality accessories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibi

It's already been said multiple times in this thread, but apparently it needs to be said again: a tank wearing strength accessories does not take more damage than a tank wearing vitality accessories.

---

I disagree with the guy you're quoting 99% of the time, but here he's responding to a guy who said

Quote:

---

its baffling to me that SE somehow designed content where it's even possible for us to wear accessories 50ilvls lower than what the content is designed for, while in dps stance and still effectively tank

---

The first bolded phrase does not affect damage intake. The second one does, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

The first bolded phrase does not affect damage intake. The second one does, though.

---

Only for PLD and DRK.

More on topic, I opted to try my 270 str acc's and compare them to my full ilvl 320 tank acc's on Lakshmi EX SSS. I don't know my DPS, but the kill time using the str acc's was about 40 seconds faster than using my vit acc's, 2:10 vs 2:48. Over the course of a 10 minute fight that shaves off what? Maybe another minute or so of the fight? That's pretty significant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Only for PLD and DRK.

More on topic, I opted to try my 270 str acc's and compare them to my full ilvl 320 tank acc's on Lakshmi EX SSS. I don't know my DPS, but the kill time using the str acc's was about 40 seconds faster than using my vit acc's, 2:10 vs 2:48. Over the course of a 10 minute fight that shaves off what? Maybe another minute or so of the fight? That's pretty significant.

---

Clearing something a few minutes faster is significant to an extent, but if you wipe even once in that aggressive mode you most likely end up losing any time saved. Or think about if you take a breather or two between fights, or have to get a replacement. At most you might get an extra couple of runs per hour with a good group. Seems to me that unless you're just pushing to have the fastest clear time/highest dps for rankings there really isn't any significant benefit to saving a minute or 2 each run, outside of it's own little bubble of being a "good run".

But the dispute is not about increased dps being significant, it's more about how SE failed and players are achieving higher dps using year old accessories despite the devs efforts to adjust how tanks are supposed to gear up.

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

---

actually i am wearing str accessory on susano extreme and lakshim extreme both MT and with only 37k shield oath only on tank buster and sheltron and rampart/sent it will mitigate most of the damage dealing only 20k to me which is noting

as of right now noting can kill me when i am wearing str accessory unless i am doing drex and doing double pulls

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Clearing something a few minutes faster is significant to an extent, but if you wipe even once in that aggressive mode you most likely end up losing any time saved. Or think about if you take a breather or two between fights, or have to get a replacement. At most you might get an extra couple of runs per hour with a good group. Seems to me that unless you're just pushing to have the fastest clear time/highest dps for rankings there really isn't any significant benefit to saving a minute or 2 each run, outside of it's own little bubble of being a "good run".

---

Groups who are intentionally going for faster/more efficient clears are already well past the point where they're worrying about whether they're clearing or not. Sure you can play it safer and take a minute or 2 longer just to make sure you clear, but honestly...who gives a shit about that? If you already know you can clear if you play it safe, why bother? It's much more fun/engaging to push yourselves to try to get it faster, and if you wipe a few times trying to make that happen, it's just part of the fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

---

You must not know what cleric stance did before Stormblood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

---

Aside from the fact that healers wearing int has never been as rampant an issue as tanks wearing str.. A healer wearing int negatively affects their healing power, which is their main role. A tank wearing vit has no impact on damage dealt or rec'd, or healing rec'd, while wearing str greatly increases their damage and threat output. At least one of those is in their main role. The extra damage comes at little cost compared to a healer wearing int.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

---

I don't understand why people keep painting the picture that a tank who knows when to DPS is somehow unable to hold threat or remember when to use cooldowns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janhyua

actually i am wearing str accessory on susano extreme and lakshim extreme both MT and with only 37k shield oath only on tank buster and sheltron and rampart/sent it will mitigate most of the damage dealing only 20k to me which is noting

---

That's what I would call a "bad scaled content". On your example, Tankbusters should do around 40k if you're supposed to be ilvl300 to enter.

Or, even better, if SE really want to enforce tank stance : Tankbusters should do 90k and your tank stance should either reduce damage by 50% or increase HP max and healing received by 100%.