BLM needs some love and RDM needs a nerf

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

I want Blm to be the casting equivalent of Sam.

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That won't happen - Sam & Rdm are just overpowered yet because they are the promoted cls for this update. SE already said that.

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Originally Posted by Neela

SE already said that.

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Any links??

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Originally Posted by Neela

That won't happen - Sam & Rdm are just overpowered yet because they are the promoted cls for this update. SE already said that.

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It's funny, because I'm pretty sure NIN is the most powerful dps right now (and has been for a while).
I'm not saying the other jobs need adjustments, I'm just scratching my head as the most centralising dps job flies under everyone's radar.

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Originally Posted by Neela

That won't happen - Sam & Rdm are just overpowered yet because they are the promoted cls for this update. SE already said that.

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Well i guess, when you do sub 3k dps on EX primals you might think that sam and rdm are OP but they're not...

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

By mobility spells I mean Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines. Y'know the spells that have always been described as mobility spells. I don't mean I want us to be able to run and cast, that's not the point at all. Just let us utilize the skills we already have more effectively! I want Blm to be the casting equivalent of Sam. So no utility and high DPS. I want to still be punished for messing up and not knowing a fight but I want that to be on me, not on the incredibly restrictive timers that we're dealing with at the moment which are completely at odds with the way fights are put together.

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I wish I could upvote that more than once.

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Originally Posted by Osh1mA

Well i guess, when you do sub 3k dps on EX primals you might think that sam and rdm are OP but they're not...

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You are kidding right? Sam not op sure... ^^'

edit: i hate comparing numbers but just for you: Sam worlds top tier hits 5041 dps while Rdm do 4565 and (cause you pointed on me/my cls) Smn did 4348. That being said top 50 Sams all hit more than 4500 dps top 50 Rdm hit more than 4000 dps - now look at smn... just the top 4 are able to pass 4000 dps. All numbers on Susano ex.

It doesn't matter how low my personal dps is - yet I know I'm still messing up a lot - i'm clearly no reference for dps xD

But never the less if you compare numbers do it in a fair way - both new cls are indeed overpowered trying to defend that just makes you look trolling hard or just being clueless....

Try again.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Could I get a source on this?

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Test it yourself. 3.0 rotation is a not insignificant dps increase compared to 4.0. The decreased potency of Blizzard 4 makes it basically worthless and the extra fire4s you get don't make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

The problem with that is that Blm has zero party utility, the only thing we had, Apoc, was opened to all casters.
SE keeps defending their op Sam by saying they should be top as they have no other benefits for the group. That logic should apply to Blm as well.

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That feel when SAM has more innate utility with slashing debuff than BLM.

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Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard

Test it yourself. 3.0 rotation is a not insignificant dps increase compared to 4.0. The decreased potency of Blizzard 4 makes it basically worthless and the extra fire4s you get don't make up for it.

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From my experiences and theorycrafting 4xF4 has a higher damage ceiling, but can get screwed harder by bad mana ticks. Nothing that can't be fixed by paying attention, though.

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Originally Posted by Neela

You are kidding right? Sam not op sure... ^^'

edit: i hate comparing numbers but just for you: Sam worlds top tier hits 5041 dps while Rdm do 4565 and (cause you pointed on me/my cls) Smn did 4348. That being said top 50 Sams all hit more than 4500 dps top 50 Rdm hit more than 4000 dps - now look at smn... just the top 4 are able to pass 4000 dps. All numbers on Susano ex.

It doesn't matter how low my personal dps is - yet I know I'm still messing up a lot - i'm clearly no reference for dps xD

But never the less if you compare numbers do it in a fair way - both new cls are indeed overpowered trying to defend that just makes you look trolling hard or just being clueless....

Try again.

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So you want smn to have SAM dps? SE explained logic behind sam dps and it's nowhere near "hype new jobs".
About parses... RDM and SAM have like 3 or 4 time more parses on FFlogs, why are you comparing raw numbers and not %??? SMN for example not fine when you compare it not only to SAM but to all other classes exept drg and mch lol. Also all top dps numbers are heavy inflated with st balance. Are they hype "new" ninja class too? lol

I never said that I want smn on that lvl where did you get this expectation from? o.o

I'm aware of why Sam & Rdm are that strong but I am not aware of what kind of discussion you are trying to get me in...
Both cls are to strong for their effort compared to all other cls thats a simple fact - so what point are you exactly trying do make?

I think he's just saying that he wants an increase in DPS. Not SAM-tier levels of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Neela

I never said that I want smn on that lvl where did you get this expectation from? o.o

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Why are you comparing their dps with sams then??
Any links where SE talking about OPness of new jobs to hype them?

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Originally Posted by soslinky

I think he's just saying that he wants an increase in DPS. Not SAM-tier levels of DPS.

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No, he's saying that new jobs are intentionaly made OP by SE.

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Originally Posted by Osh1mA

Why are you comparing their dps with sams then??
No, he's saying that new jobs are intentionaly made OP by SE.

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Because you compared my dps to those in the first way lol? And yeah SHEs saying that both cls are just so strong with less to none punishment in messing up their rota - because they are new and should promote SB content. If you don't see that (what everybody else here see as well) you are just blind o.o

there is absolutely no reason to discuss that sam/rdm are stronger and easier to play than other dds - so whats your point?

New jobs are OP =/= only 5 SMNs were able to break past 4000 DPS so they should be buffed. Those are two different statements.

I strongly disagree with the notion of SAM/RDM being OP. They're fine. It's the other classes who are underpowered and should receive a buff of some sort.

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Originally Posted by soslinky

I strongly disagree with the notion of SAM/RDM being OP. They're fine. It's the other classes who are underpowered and should receive a buff of some sort.

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Sure. I agree.

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Originally Posted by Neela

And yeah SHEs saying that both cls are just so strong with less to none punishment in messing up their rota - because they are new and should promote SB content.

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So any links where SE said that?

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Originally Posted by soslinky

New jobs are OP =/= only 5 SMNs were able to break past 4000 DPS so they should be buffed. Those are two different statements.

I strongly disagree with the notion of SAM/RDM being OP. They're fine. It's the other classes who are underpowered and should receive a buff of some sort.

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uhm if sam/rdm are top tier and mnk, drg, mch, smn, blm, (nin), brd are way weaker... - its weird to say that 7 cls are underpowered instead of 2 are overpowered ^^' – but if you wanna argue about syntax just do so xD

SAM is working as designed, it has no utility so it compensates with top-tier DPS.

The other jobs aren't under-powered because SAM is top-dog. It's because their base kit is broken af. BLM's Heavensward rotation is doing more DPS than its 4.0 rotation. That's something nerfing SAM/RDM won't fix.

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Nerfing SAM/RDM will bring the DPS gap closer. But it wouldn't fix the core problem of job mechanics being broken.

Guys just ignore Neela, all they do is come in here and spew their conspiracy nonsense about overpowering RDM and SAM for hype purposes without proposing any actual fixes.

Fixes:
Nerf RDM and NIN
Buff MCH - BLM - DRG - SMN

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Fixes:
Nerf RDM and NIN
Buff MCH - BLM - DRG

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How about buff MCH - BLM(not sure they need a buff though...) - DRG and stop wanting classes you don't play nerfed because they perform better than your class... I never understood the mentality of "X does more damage than Y NERF IT!" instead of "why does X do more damage than Y, please buff Y to be more competitive with X"

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

How about buff MCH - BLM(not sure they need a buff though...) - DRG and stop wanting classes you don't play nerfed because they perform better than your class... I never understood the mentality of "X does more damage than Y NERF IT!" instead of "why does X do more damage than Y, please buff Y to be more competitive with X"

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RDM perfroms the same as BLM and SMN performs worse than both.
RDM brings the most utility and BLM doesn't bring at all. BLM should deal more damage than RDM and arguably SMN should deal more damage than RDM because the utility RDM brings is higher. Or you nerf RDM or you buff BLM and SMN. Choose the easiest way to deal with the problem.

Is "nerf" a triggerword here?

Nerfing doesn't really solve anything unless the DPS is beyond out of hand which honestly, RDMs is not, seeing as each utility they use aside from embolden costs DPS. Nerfing RDM won't make BLMs rotation better, it won't fix how punishing SMNs AF mechanic is now, all it does is piss off RDMs and give those players a tiny ego boost until they realize playing their class is still like trying to navigate a bulldozer through an ornate glass sculpture exhibit without breaking anything.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Nerfing doesn't really solve anything unless the DPS is beyond out of hand which honestly, RDMs is not, seeing as each utility they use aside from embolden costs DPS. Nerfing RDM won't make BLMs rotation better, it won't fix how punishing SMNs AF mechanic is now, all it does is piss off RDMs and give those players a tiny ego boost until they realize playing their class is still like trying to navigate a bulldozer through an ornate glass sculpture exhibit without breaking anything.

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Heeeh xD
I'll be honest, if you have a bard or something, it really only costs you the one or two gcds you lose casting Verraise or Vercure.
You need to be spamming those to run out of juice. And if you are, well. Probably not the best team then xD
Even without a bard, you can handle one Verraise fine. More gets trickier...

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Heeeh xD
I'll be honest, if you have a bard or something, it really only costs you the one or two gcds you lose casting Verraise or Vercure.
You need to be spamming those to run out of juice. And if you are, well. Probably not the best team then xD
Even without a bard, you can handle one Verraise fine. More gets trickier...

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That's a good point, but I don't have a static and usually use PF so therein lies my personal experience with it lol.

If you Nerf RDM than there will be no point to bringing a caster this raiding tier. BLM needs to be buffed and this would make SMN more appealing. RDM would still be paired with melee groups and BLM with a SMN. SMN problem is not damage per say, they need a rework which won't happen - their kit is all screwed up and not worth writing all its flaws on a thread that won't get any attention from SE.

I also have voice many of times nerfing one job because the rest of the jobs in the same category are left behind is not the solution. Blm and smn should get buffs.
To those that keep saying just nerf Red Mage or Sam (even though i do not care about it much) you guys do not understand at all and that fixes nothing so stop insisting on nerfing of jobs.

@CecMiller, I know this is like 5 days too late, but SMN played to perfection can put out higher numbers than a BLM can, whether or not FFlogs reflects that matters little to me. Feel free to read Eirene Snow's extremely detailed guide on how ridiculous it is to play SMN and you'll see what I mean.

Also, response at large, BLM already does marginally less damage than SAM, or let me rephrase that, I do marginally less damage than a SAM when I play it #subtlebrag. BLM has always been about planning ahead and movement and the whole song and dance (or lack thereof) so slight potency buff(s) or the aforementioned suggestions I gave back on an earlier page would help with that just fine, and just a LITTLE bit more movement relief would be all the class really needs.

Oh and a MP nerf for Thunder III and/or a MP pool increase would be nice too. It's frustrating to end up with not enough MP to cast when entering ice sometimes.

@Maero, by SE's own logic, the ability to resurrect a dead player is "extremely strong" and RDM can literally raise 5 players in 10 GCDs with MP left to do the rotation (if lucid is up). That is the the most broken thing that SE has ever implemented into the game, period. Please nerf RDM.

People really need to stop whining about SAM/RDM nerfs.

Did you read my response? I don't think you read my response.

Let me elaborate some more. RDM is literally the best class in the game to handle mechanics except for maybe bard. Short cast times and can move every other cast, not to mention dash in and dash out. Vercure is warranted given the lore of the class but too strong for the current setup of the game, if both healers die the RDM can vercure > verraise > vercure > verraise and completely carry the party, see also: broken. Lastly, embolden is a party wide damage buff for PHYSICAL damage ONLY, leaving no room in the party for other casters so that more physical can take more advantage of it, and keep in mind your two tanks will always be melee.

Need I say more?

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Did you read my response? I don't think you read my response.

Let me elaborate some more. RDM is literally the best class in the game to handle mechanics except for maybe bard. Short cast times and can move every other cast, not to mention dash in and dash out. Vercure is warranted given the lore of the class but too strong for the current setup of the game, if both healers die the RDM can vercure > verraise > vercure > verraise and completely carry the party, see also: broken. Lastly, embolden is a party wide damage buff for PHYSICAL damage ONLY, leaving no room in the party for other casters so that more physical can take more advantage of it, and keep in mind your two tanks will always be melee.

Need I say more?

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and theres something inherently wrong with having a non healer save the party from a wipe, when for 4 years if both healers were dead its always a wipe, no matter what? Id even be cool to see a tank with a raise someday, the "balance of power" has been incredibly stupid for a long time Holy trinity or not.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

and theres something inherently wrong with having a non healer save the party from a wipe, when for 4 years if both healers were dead its always a wipe, no matter what? Id even be cool to see a tank with a raise someday, the "balance of power" has been incredibly stupid for a long time

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Bards had healer LB before 3.0 and SMN has a raise but you cant skip the majority of the cast time.

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Originally Posted by ss_mangos

Bards had healer LB before 3.0 and SMN has a raise but you cant skip the majority of the cast time.

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yeah that was pretty dope back in 2.0, and swiftcast. As I recall dot ticks didnt stop whenever you casted a raise though. And also those are the only two scenarios available to which to do so. Then only 1 in hw, now we're back to 2. But if we're hoinh back to 2.x, I mean BLM had just as much mobility as rdm does now, imo so there is that.

I mean, move a few steps pop a fire 1/Firestarter. Scathe if you wanna move more than a step after the cast or Firestarter.

In all honesty, seeing these nerf threads just reminds me, like you did. Where bards lost their LB because :i dps i want more dps" then they got bow mage. B:M whining "this job too easy it deal too much damage make complex please" and it never ends "BLM too complex make like RDM" seriously.

For god's sake people enough with the nerf talk. Solution is NOT nerfing one job because they screwed up on the others. Red mage is perfect as it is, now they need to buff the other jobs.
I understand having insta cast raise is rather OP but the amount of players (healers included) i have needed to raise saved wipes as other Red Mages probably can attest to the same thing.

And yes i had been blm main and levelled it to 70 as my first job but taking a break for now and have Red Mage as main.

There IS something inherently wrong with ONE SINGLE class being able to do it, it makes that class required. That isn't complicated, I don't think.

Also, BLM is not very complex and never was, it was just unforgiving and required forethought. Now, it's just not strong enough to justify the logic that "higher damage with no utility", AND red mage utility/simplicity/mobility will basically push BLM and SMN out of groups more and more. THAT is why it needs fixing.

Fixing red mage is simple, all they need to do is make embolden work like devotion and dragon's eye, the user and one other target, and give vercure and verraise a stipulation saying that they can't be dualcast, as well as increase the cast time on vercure by a little bit (maybe half a second). That, and BLM should get some kind of raise (Void Raise, if you will) that is a 180s cooldown off-gcd raise. Then the three casters would be on the same level utility wise with the raising.

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Originally Posted by Maero

For god's sake people enough with the nerf talk. Solution is NOT nerfing one job because they screwed up on the others. Red mage is perfect as it is, now they need to buff the other jobs.
I understand having insta cast raise is rather OP but the amount of players (healers included) i have needed to raise saved wipes as other Red Mages probably can attest to the same thing.

And yes i had been blm main and levelled it to 70 as my first job but taking a break for now and have Red Mage as main.

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All they need to do if make it so that it isn't 2nd strongest DPS. Nerfing it is more feasible, but buffing the other 6 classes can totally work aswell and totally sounds like something that they would totally do totally.

RDM is NOT fine where it is. What I don't understand is since everything is relative, how would making RDM 5th strongest by nerfing be ANY different than making it 5th strongest by buffing others? Verraise and Vercure and embolden can stay, embolden should also affect casters, but the damage compared to the others is out of wack all things considered.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

All they need to do if make it so that it isn't 2nd strongest DPS. Nerfing it is more feasible, but buffing the other 6 classes can totally work aswell and totally sounds like something that they would totally do totally.

RDM is NOT fine where it is. What I don't understand is since everything is relative, how would making RDM 5th strongest by nerfing be ANY different than making it 5th strongest by buffing others? Verraise and Vercure and embolden can stay, embolden should also affect casters, but the damage compared to the others is out of wack all things considered.

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Red mage is not the second strongest DPS, although it is strong for the utility that it has, and perhaps more importantly it's simple and very difficult to mess up, all while giving it great utility and mobility for mechanics. My previous post regarding how broken verraise especially is but also embolden and vercure cannot even be argued with.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Red mage is not the second strongest DPS, although it is strong for the utility that it has, and perhaps more importantly it's simple and very difficult to mess up, all while giving it great utility and mobility for mechanics. My previous post regarding how broken verraise especially is but also embolden and vercure cannot even be argued with.

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Yes the F it can be argued with. Vercure and Verraise cost you DPS, Verraise probably could use a slightly steeper cost since Lucid Dreaming and Dualcast are powerful when used in conjuction with it. Embolden is only a maximum of .75% increase in rDPS. If Vercure got a slight potency reduction maybe 50 or so and again an increased MP consumption, but not too much since DC'ing it is already nearly 10% of RDMs MP.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Red mage is not the second strongest DPS, although it is strong for the utility that it has, and perhaps more importantly it's simple and very difficult to mess up, all while giving it great utility and mobility for mechanics. My previous post regarding how broken verraise especially is but also embolden and vercure cannot even be argued with.

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RDM is the 2nd strongest DPS according to the aggregate scores on FFlogs. The only time they aren't 2nd place is in the 100th percentile (padded as hell) but on average they are.

Also Embolden is closer to 1% rDPS (0.96%) which is about = to Litany + Dragon sight while RDM itself contributes about 300 more dps in a fight (being generous) while being less prone to getting screwed over.

EDIT: Wait hang on, they are 2nd at the 100th percentile. They are 3rd at the 99th percentile.

Someone did a very nice spreadsheet (nearly 2 weeks old though that gave points for each class based on these 2 fights. I will make something similar so we have a frame of reference what the world was like before the balance update but as there is no savage to use as a metric and its only been 4 weeks + its a .05 update, it really isn't going to be anything more than potency changes on attacks and utilities I reckon, but that may just be enough to make classes worth playing/not as strong relative to others for the time being)

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

RDM is the 2nd strongest DPS according to the aggregate scores on FFlogs. The only time they aren't 2nd place is in the 100th percentile (padded as hell) but on average they are.

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Stop using FFlogs unless you go through a large number of datapoints on the tables with no balance. It's not accurate.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Stop using FFlogs unless you go through a large number of datapoints on the tables with no balance. It's not accurate.

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It was a large number of data points: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15/

This is the 75th percentile, very unlikely to be heavily influenced by the balance. You can select which percentile you want to view but it corroborates with what I say. It's as accurate as we are gonna get and I'm fairly certain even SE doesn't have this much data (Unless they record the DPS of every single kill ever done of these 2 fights)