To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.
SAM out classing all other DPS
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06-30-2017, 02:45 AMKaiden019
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06-30-2017, 02:56 AMBlackThoughtFeels to me that some people are arguing about degrees while others are pretending they're talking absolutes, which is always how these things go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiden019
Moreover, the idea that the devs know better than the community has almost never borne out in real life. The community decides the meta, always. -
06-30-2017, 03:01 AMMiruWestMNK is the 2nd highest DPS of the melee sitting around 4400k parses. Along with Brotherhood and the right team comp a MNK is shine. 4400 is not that far behind a SAM at 4600 when you still have utility skills not yet factored in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
Its like MNK's complained about not being brought to raids because of lack of utility and now you got it, yet proceed to complain about why you arnt the top DPS while STILL having said utility.
I believe in a utility bubble every class is where it needs to be. DRG and NIN are similar as they both have a lot of utility, MNK is next highest with some but not much utility, while SAM has none and is at the top. -
06-30-2017, 03:22 AMEbonySeraphimI think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). Also, though the tone of this thread is contentious, I don't see many people suggesting SAM should be nerfed necessarily. Rather that the other melee DPS jobs(DRG and MNKs really) have it tough with skills that are far more lackluster to use (requiring either luck, or raid-like coordination with another player) just to potentially catch up to the DPS advantage gained by simply playing SAM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
Does having a physical DPS heavy composition + 5% damage with a Monk allow the extra Forbidden Chakra's every 90 seconds catch up to what SAM offers or does it pass it? I''d say considering it's a more restrictive party composition, it should do noticeably more than simply having a SAM. The 10% damage increase and 5% to one other player from Dragon sight should be more beneficial than replacing the DRG with a SAM considering how restrictive and limited it is to use in the first place. DRG still has Battle Litany for that boost too, but Mantra is quite irrelevant if the healers can keep folks alive regardless of it. Let SAM be personal DPS king, but let higher effort + coordination yield better results by at least a noticeable margin. -
06-30-2017, 04:11 AMMiruWestQuote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
The thing is tho people are looking at personal numbers and not raid numbers. People see SAM at 4600 and DRG at 4200 and think DRG needs a potency buff yet they dont actually look at the damage increase the DRG is giving to the raid because I guess its not numbers you physically see on the meter. A DRG bringing Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, is a sizeable amount of extra dps the DRG brings to the raid across mutiple team members, yet people forget that and think the DRG should do almost as much DPS as the SAM and STILL bring that exact type of utility to the raid which literally brings us back to 3.0 MNK. -
06-30-2017, 04:18 AMSelovaYou do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
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06-30-2017, 04:33 AMKacho_NachoWell, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us." :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.
The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.
That's all I'm saying.
But, people aren't supposed to be using parsers. SE has already made that clear.Quote:
You do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.
In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.
This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.
We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.
SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there. -
06-30-2017, 04:35 AMBardo
The amount of hyperbole in this thread is absolutely staggering.
A class is "trash tier" if they do 2% less dps?
/facepalm -
06-30-2017, 04:49 AMNominousPretty much the thoughts I've been sharing. A single number is not a great representation of a Job, or the balance of said Job. Any tier, or ranking list should always account for more than just that, like your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiruWest
And to be clear, there are Jobs that need love in 4.0. Some of them more dire than others, and I think that's important to realize. And I think everyone knows that, for the most part. But to say SAM outclasses them is probably an inappropriate way to approach the situation. They outclass the other Job's damage (if played right), but not their support, ease of play, or flexibility in 'all' content (we'll have to see with Omega). That's far more accurate based on the content we've seen so far. -
06-30-2017, 05:37 AMHoLoFoNoI'm not sure what you have seen, but I'm pretty sure MNK does around the same as ninja without BH (RNG dependent because lolmnk) and from the SSS dummy HP this was the intention. With the 2-3 extra forbidden chakras (again RNG dependent) every 90 seconds MNK is actually stronger than NIN at least on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
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06-30-2017, 05:45 AMHoLoFoNoI hate when people say this. Y'know a little story called 2.0 WAR, 2.4 NIN and 3.0 MCH?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
When it comes to having information about the capability of their classes, this development team isn't on the best side. They really need something like a public test realm because of course they can't balance shit perfectly all the time, they are only human. However this doesn't mean they cannot be wrong about things. It is even worse because in all of these cases they still thought they were right even after hearing the complaints and then proceeded to make changes to the classes. I've said this before (I think it was in this thread) but you can't forget that the development team consists of internal people who judge themselves by their intentions and therefore it is much harder for them to see if something isn't working as intended or in a way that the players are happy with.
They honestly need public play testing because it really isn't fun for the people who have their class cocked up. They typically do a good job addressing the issues (apart from 3.4 AST) so I don't think they are incompetent. It is just the fact that just because they have 'data' about the supposed abilities of the classes doesn't mean it is reflective of the actual ability and usage of the classes (case in point 2.4 NIN which was top dps but still had trick attack. Their justification was the NIN was hardest to play due to mudras but it was infact extremely easy to play with the lack of positionals and it had a straightforward rotation.) -
06-30-2017, 07:42 AMFannahI believe it wasn't only about difficulty only, but about the kind of lags the mudra naturally had (but maybe I'm wrong) Which was really hard and a pain to play in Europe as the servers we were playing on were still in America and not in Europe unlike now, which helped to fix a bit that problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo
About what's hard or easy to play, it's kind of a poor argument done overall on this game (I'm actually not targetting you, but you just remind me of that topic) as yes, everything is pretty easy overall compared to a lot of games made to be hard ("osu!" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsYLIg67pYo where you can't complain about missclick of any kind nor rythm problem or coordination ones) / "Path of Exile" Hardcore mode (die once and you lose months of playing (so you have to know well what you do) / the shoot'em up games (those in 2D with little planes shooting tons of bullets per second and where you have to dodge tons of bullet per second like here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqN_fH2S7k) and of course tons of other games. Then yes, I believe we can all say everything is pretty easy and when you play a lot of those games where you need to be very reactive, having a game with a GCD of 2.5sec and dodging big aoe in red is reaaaally easy anyway. FFXIV is not a game made to be hard anyway.
I'm not saying everything is easy, but I would like to underline that nothing can be really said to be "hard". This is even why some bad tanks complain about "the dps get aggro on Sastasha, I will let him die" because the game is so easy that we have to create unexistent objectives like "the way we are supposed to do the dungeon" as anyway the dungeon will be succeed, and quickly anyway.
To me it's more about exploring a world, getting a nice story to live, meet people, talking, sharing advice and experiences, doing dumb things, doing the content to play together, or to challenge ourselves a bit, but never too seriously as anyway the game don't really allow us to challenge ourselves in a very serious way as it's not made for this. -
06-30-2017, 07:50 AMEbonySeraphimDoesn't the question then become: is Brotherhood's raid DPS advantage stronger than Trick Attack? Even if you prayed to and paid off RNGesus, that answer is no. Forbidden Chakra is gated behind a 5 second cooldown on a 15 second buff to feed you Chakra's so you at most get 230 * 3~4 => 690~920 potency on a single target from it every 90 seconds. In case folks are wondering, the fourth FC would be used outside of the buff from the ones gained during it?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo
That was a bit more of a mind exercise, I don't think Trick Attack or Ninja need be nerfed, but there should at least be parity. -
06-30-2017, 07:55 AMRyazWelcome to an MMO forum where if your class isn't topping the charts AND bringing the most utility to the group, it's trash. People see the charts and they don't want to just be useful to the group, they want to win against everyone else. Egos are strong in the gaming community. Unfortunately, it's much easier to judge performance based on numbers than abstract things like utility. It's why "support" classes aren't as popular as they could be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
WoW was the same way. Looking at numbers in Legion and with the exception of a couple extreme cases on the ends of the spectrum (like when Hunters were just bad), the top and bottom DPS was within 5% of each other. Yet, people complained it wasn't enough, despite the fact that it could all easily clear content and that it's incredibly difficult to balance like 20+ DPS jobs perfectly. -
06-30-2017, 07:58 AMMiruWestMNK does do more damage than NIN. MNK is sitting around 4.4k to 4.5k potential while NIN is around 4.1k to 4.2k barely. Why are people making it seem MNK is so bad? Oh wait because people will be sheep....Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
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06-30-2017, 08:48 AMJeckyl_Tesla
I'm kinda stuck between SAM or BRD. I don't mind about the DPS output per say, but I'm more pulled towards playing the class to max and how difficult the class is. I was actually quite surprised by the BRDs complexity. It's only 60 though. My SAM is 66 at the moment.
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06-30-2017, 11:54 AMAionhow can we give inputs...if we dont have the number? SE said no to parser because they afraid that it will be source of toxicity... but how we supposed to improve if we cant have number on what damage we deal, how many crits etc? your statement is contradicting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
yes of course people should be fine bring any job that they prefer to to raid/dungeons. but that did not excuse them to play poorly. because he may have fun, but the others may not. that what parser CAN tell us.
On topic:
SAM should be generally outclassing other DPS, as it design of their kit. Currently we cant say the class balance is working or not because the endgame raid isnt here yet. I agree with you that we shouldnt have mindset that any job is incapable to do the raid. but it has happened before and we should keep critical to the devs. Being critical does not mean we undervaluing what they have done, but they are human too. -
06-30-2017, 03:36 PMDyvid
Late to the discussion but the reality is this debate is going to be settled with on simple question. Which is better, a party with a mixed set of dps jobs or a party with 4 SAM? If it's 4 SAM then expect a nerf bat.
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06-30-2017, 03:42 PMSunakoStacking same classes also effect lb gauge generation so i dont think it is good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
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06-30-2017, 05:38 PMEbonySeraphimDid you just pull a Monk versus Ninja comparison when between those two jobs Ninja has usually always been the preferred raid member despite it being known that MNK has a higher personal DPS? We know where that comparison goes and the issue now is not what was it was yesterday! That means something *else* changed and it wasn't between Ninja and Monk. If you don't get that, then perhaps you need to take leave of this thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by MiruWest
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06-30-2017, 06:08 PMKacho_NachoHi Aion. You can provide input by stating someone's DPS seems too high or too low. As for self-improvement, I feel most of us know instinctively when we are improving. We start getting comms, we don't have to stop and think about our priority list, we notice larger numbers on the screen, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aion
However, I believe parsers can be of help in gauging your self-improvement. The problem comes in when players only look at the top damage. They blow off the utility another class brings. They pay no attention to the fact that the #3 ranked damage dealer interrupted the boss's AoE attack six times while the top two damage dealers didn't interrupt the boss at all. They only focus on the all mighty top dps number and that hurts the game tremendously.
So, I'm not contradicting myself. I just know that SE has banned parsers for good reason and we have to rely on our own experience to gauge how well we, or another player, are doing.
Also, it is fine to be critical. No one likes a Yes Man.:D
If you, me, or anyone else notices a problem we should let the devs know! We should tell them exactly what we are seeing in a clear and polite manner.
However, we also have to accept that this is not game design by forum vote. Once we send off that post, our part is done. The ball is then in SE's court. -
06-30-2017, 06:29 PMRyaz
@Kacho_Nacho: Exactly. So many people put stock in the numbers alone. It's somewhat understandable as it's easier to gauge performance based on hard data than abstract things like utility. People can see an improvement in DPS numbers quite easily but it's harder to tell when someone is providing better support.
But we can't let the mindset of "bigger numbers means a better class" cloud our vision, especially when it's data collected from test dummies. Fight mechanics will severely alter numbers and utility abilities really shine in raids where they can save parties and buff other players higher. -
07-01-2017, 12:17 AMSelovaWrong again. SE has no issues with people using parsers/combat logs as long as you are using them appropriately and not using them as a tool to shame people. You are also extremely naive if you think the devs alone can handle class/job balance. There is a reason other mmos use public test realms as a means for class balance before a expansion/patch goes live, so you don't end up with the messes that warrior and scholar are in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
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07-01-2017, 12:26 AMFrownyIt is more the balance behind it. Take MCH/BRD and DRG/NIN. Out of those 2 sets, DRG/MCH do less DPS but also have less utility. Not being at the top if fine if you bring candy for the rest of the raid, but if you don't bring that and are easily replaced...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryaz
Sure, fights will change but we're already seeing problems with just dummies and fights with 20s downtime. DRG is a prime example: on a dummy it is... "ok", but in a fight with any downtime we get hosed out of our eyes. Compared to NIN, they can pop huton and move along like nothing happened.Quote:
But we can't let the mindset of "bigger numbers means a better class" cloud our vision, especially when it's data collected from test dummies.
Overall, yes SAM is ridiculously powerful right now, as is RDM too honestly (though is anyone shocked the 2 new classes which killed DPS queues are extremely powerful?) -
07-01-2017, 12:32 AMNeophyte
You don't even need parsers to decide about the meta.
Meta comp is just the composition with fastest clear times, so even without a parser the meta would propably be known within a week of the normal raid release. -
07-01-2017, 02:35 AMOkamimaru
One thing I've noticed that nobody else said is that while SAM puts out big DPS they also seem to take damage harder... maybe it's just me... just seems like in fights when the group gets hit my hp drops lower than the other dps (except magic users)
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07-01-2017, 03:06 AMKacho_NachoSE has said that parsers are not allowed. It's to their credit that they have turned a blind eye towards their use because the community overall has shown restraint in their use. You can be certain the moment people start using them inappropriately the ban hammer will come out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selova
Me naive? I suppose so but not extremely naive. Anyhow, I think you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. I'm not stating that we should just sit and be silent while the devs sit in some ivory tower. I'm stating we should obey the terms and conditions while providing feedback. In addition, we accept that our part in the development cycle is finished once we provide our feedback, and trust that when the devs say they are looking into an issue, they are actually looking into the issue and not blowing smoke. -
07-01-2017, 04:32 AMSelovaI'm not sure I follow you when you say "obey terms and conditions" when it comes to feedback. Are you referring to people using parsers to provide feedback on classes/jobs? There isn't anything wrong with that if so, it's partly what the tool is used for and while SE does not endorse parses they don't outright prohibit their use as long as you're using them responsibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
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07-01-2017, 04:58 AMwintercoat
This entire conversation took a highly amusing turn when they deleted the FFLogs thread...
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07-01-2017, 05:24 AMInuk9
All the parse information are avaiable in game. It's called combat log. The parse software only picks that info and calculate your damage in a Damage/second formula.
As a ps4 user, I really could use a personal parser (Just want to know my damage/healing) because it is really obnoxious to ask other people for my numbers all the time. -
07-01-2017, 07:40 AMHoLoFoNoOh they did delete my thread. I didn't even notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by wintercoat
It doesn't matter it served its purpose. -
07-01-2017, 08:24 AMKacho_Nacho*snicker* Now, that's hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by wintercoat
Not sure where I'm being unclear. It's simple. Don't tell them that you using they don't want you to be using when giving them feedback. You're just shooting yourself in the foot and your feedback will be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selova
Now, you may be right about parsers. After all, my memory is not the best on the block. I blame fibromyalgia and heavy meds. hee hee :D
However, I feel parser use is something SE is uncomfortable with. Why take the chance when you can say something like "Samurai seem to do more damage than I would expect. Is this intentional?" and not mention a parse at all? -
07-01-2017, 10:24 AMBlacktestament7
I haven't read all of this thread but for me there's just one thing I have to add. Nerfs need to never happen to classes for "balance". Nerfs bring nothing good in the long run. Ignoring why SAM is where it is, rather than lower SAM to MCH or other classes bring those classes higher. Nerfing classes just makes all the classes worse, it doesn't make any class better by comparison. In this example, Instead of MCH getting any better SAM would now just be worse off and now you have two bad classes. Why push for that? That mentality makes no sense.That being said, there's no reason SAM should be nerfed unless you want a repeat of how badly MNK was ignored in 3.0.
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07-01-2017, 06:02 PMCadmus
Sam is easy.
Do combo 1. Do combo 2. Do combo 3. Kiaaaaa when gauge full. Boss is now dead.
Jk, exaggeration, but yea. Seriously. It's a really simple class. -
07-01-2017, 09:15 PMShiroe
And it's not helping, that many buffs aim at physically dps too. Without those, I can see a blm keeping up or surpassing a Sam. At least in the 2 trials we have so far. In groups that don't directly buff physical dps or Ast' favouring the Sam, seen Blm toe to toe with Sam if not surpassing it a tick.
I'd say Blm should get nerfed too, not only it's insane aoe damage; it can burst and sustain; but also the single target damage,..
IF NOT, than because in future fights there will be even more movement AND because there are fewer magical buffs in the game? -
07-01-2017, 09:25 PMShiroeActually not nerf Sam and Blm, but nerf the buffs of the other classes, and buff the personal Dps of the other classes. So if feels rewarding to play your Drg and Smn and other classes well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
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07-01-2017, 09:50 PMRiotpersonaThey just need to buff the personal dps of some of these classes, SMN, DRG and MCH's raid buffs are comparatively weak as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
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07-01-2017, 09:58 PMShiroeTrue, many buffs are low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotpersona
As for Mnk 3.x, it wasn't ignored for not being over the top dps with no buffs, just the other buffs were to good. Many still played Mnk and Mnks found spots in farm pfs, unlike casters.
Sam and Blm can both remain top dps, just not by such a large margin. And some buffs should not only be restricted to buffing physical dps imo. -
07-01-2017, 11:29 PMs3ystic
I know its been said over again and again, but SAM is a class that focuses on damage. It doesn't buff the party. It doesn't offer any trick utilities. It just does damage. Its there for itself as a "selfish DPS" and it should be the best at what it does. "Purity of purpose" and all that. Its RDM that i have a beef with (but that is for another thread.) I personally picked up sam, played an hour of it and put it down. Its not my cup of tea.
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07-01-2017, 11:38 PMFyceThis doesn't make sense. When a single job is completly overpowered and crush all other jobs by a huge marging, buffing all jobs to the same level takes literally ten times the efforts, while also generating a need to re-balance encounters. The chance of messing up the overall balance is drastically increased with this method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktestament7
Yes, the feeling players get when their job is nerfed s*cks. But in the current situation, it's the best solution. It involves less work and less risk.