Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

So it's ok to do half our job? As long as we do our primary role right? Well as long as I'm dealing dps I'll go ahead and SPAM true thrust from now on since dpsing is my primary role not how WELL i dps. That shouldn't matter as long as in attacking right? True thrust spam it is! This was very enlightening!

Yoshi stated during a previous live letter that healer dps was not included in the dps checks when Raids were being tested. Every content is 100% clearable without healer DPS. He also stated that healer DPS can be used to make up the difference if actual DPS weren't bringing enough of it. Healer DPS is a bonus to help clear content, not a requirement. In early stages of savage content I'm sure it can make a difference in a clear or not, just like tank dps can but once people get used to the content and are not undergeared for it, then healer DPS doesn't make as much of a difference.

By design healer DPS is not required, its a bonus. As long as the party lives, I don't really care if the healer does dps or not. Its a nice bonus but I won't be bothered by the dungeon taking an extra 5 min to complete.

This thread (and this argument) is hilarious.

It's basically two children sitting in a sandbox, flinging sand at eachother, yelling, and fighting over toys.

Neither side will ever win, because you will never be able to sway everyone to "your" side. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you can (hopefully) enjoy the game a little bit more.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

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You are correct except for the lack of context that the dps needed is that from 4 dps performing 80-90% their dummy rotation (mechanics come first, mind you) while slightly above minimum ilvl. Iirc that was the whole info.
That's why early clears use healer dps, because else they'd need more gear.

I hope healers are dpsing, because my PLD is blowing defensive CDs, using cover, abusing clemency just for that very reason. In normal roulette there is very little for them left to heal, especially with SCH pet.

I've said it before, but Yoshida is trying to please everyone when it comes to the thing with healers, but this is one of those cases where trying to please everyone will please no one in the end.

Assuming things get worse in terms of people abusing each other over whether healers DPS or not, the next step would be to force healers to play within their paradigm. That means stuff in dungeons, trials, story mode raids and savage raids hitting harder, debuffs that need to be removed being common-place, and MP conservation being a thing for healers. Granted, I believe we should already be going in that direction since 3.0, but better late than never.

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Originally Posted by Vanitas

So it's ok to do half our job? As long as we do our primary role right? Well as long as I'm dealing dps I'll go ahead and SPAM true thrust from now on since dpsing is my primary role not how WELL i dps. That shouldn't matter as long as in attacking right? True thrust spam it is! This was very enlightening!

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I would actually say that a Healer that doesn't DPS and only heals keeping the party at full HP is doing a better primary role that a DPS doing only True Thrust.
So in a way you would do a worse job than the non DPSing healer. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

I hope healers are dpsing, because my PLD is blowing defensive CDs, using cover, abusing clemency just for that very reason. In normal roulette there is very little for them left to heal, especially with SCH pet.

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If healers don't DPS I tend to ignore my defensive cooldowns. I like to provide my healer with more job that way. ^^

Tbh I think I'd fall asleep if I didn't DPS. I don't get how other healers can just stand around doing nothing until someone takes damage. It's so boring!

Not this type of thread again... Yoshi-P's stance on healer dd-ing is not new to us, as he has expressed the same sentiment in the past. It is not a "get-out-of-jail-free" card for healers.

If party members do not need healing for an extended period of time, then there is no excuse for the healer to not at least try to, at minimum apply some dots.

If I ever see a healer idling/jumping/emoting while the rest are busy finishing mobs off, neither the statement from Yoshi-P, nor the Twitterholic-Mr.Covfefe can save said healer from getting the boot. That's a guarantee.

Cheers,
D.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I would actually say that a Healer that doesn't DPS and only heals keeping the party at full HP is doing a better primary role that a DPS doing only True Thrust.
So in a way you would do a worse job than the non DPSing healer. Congratulations.

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I wouldn't. Topping players off when there is no outgoing damage to warrant is simply a wasted GCD. Who cares if the DPS are at 60% if they aren't going to get hit again that you can plan a aoe HoT that will catch the tank too?

Y'all are like people who argue about whether or not you should wash your hands after using the bathroom. Nobody should scream in your face if you decide not to but it's still gross if you don't.

Here we are again with people wanting to do nothing more than pressing ~10 buttons in a whole dungeons...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I wouldn't. Topping players off when there is no outgoing damage to warrant is simply a wasted GCD. Who cares if the DPS are at 60% if they aren't going to get hit again that you can't plan a aoe HoT that will catch the tank too?

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well, that only works if the DPS is good enouth to avoid that said dmg. As most ppl know, alot of DPS tend to find it very hard to avoid AoE's as an example.

But what I was saying was, that a Healer doing it's job keeping the party at full health is doing a better primary role that a DPS that doesn't actually do Damage Per Second, more like Damage Per Minute.

At the end of the day he reality is VERY simple:

If you chose to be a healer you BETTER heal and keep us alive . If you CHOOSE to DPS as a healer is more than welcome BUT it's NOT mandatory and it is OPTIONAL.

If people call you LAZY for not DPS they are just idiots and morons. As long as you do your job as a healer you doing fine. If you wish to DPS do it when you can but remember IT IS OPTIONAL you DONT have to.

If they don't like it , well LET THEM HEAL. It's TOUGH and move on

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I wouldn't. Topping players off when there is no outgoing damage to warrant is simply a wasted GCD. Who cares if the DPS are at 60% if they aren't going to get hit again that you can plan a aoe HoT that will catch the tank too?

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Wanna know what drives me up the wall? Dun Scaith, beam struggle phase against Diabolos where no damage is happening... and there are healers healing their party with AoE spells when there is no damage happening whatsoever. Why do they do this!? Are they well!?



Anyway, in my opinion, a healer should DPS if there is no damage happening and if the tank isn't going to die in the next 10-20 or so seconds, why not DPS for a bit (with the changes in 4.0, you no longer have to worry about healing in INT Stance)? Pretty sure that's a line in one of the Novice Hall instances...

While I have no interest in furthering the debate, I want to call out the very wrong "all or nothing" viewpoint toward healers. Maybe your healer isn't DPSing because they understand their group's capabilities and knows they'll need to be ready for inevitable hiccups. Maybe they know the fight and are already planning ahead of what's happening. The assumption that a healer not DPSing is simply doing nothing is just that - an assumption, and a wrongful one at that. Might be true in some cases, but not applicable overall.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

well, that only works if the DPS is good enouth to avoid that said dmg. As most ppl know, alot of DPS tend to find it very hard to avoid AoE's as an example.

But what I was saying was, that a Healer doing it's job keeping the party at full health is doing a better primary role that a DPS that doesn't actually do Damage Per Second, more like Damage Per Minute.

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Then you reasonably adjust. Whenever I have idiot DPS who can't seem to avoid anything, I veer in and out of Cleric or toss Regen on them to mitigate some damage. In trials or 24-mans, I'll eventually leave them on the ground to think about their mistakes because raising them repeatedly is a waste of my MP. A good healer shouldn't be babying bad players.

Nevertheless, it may be better per se, but that doesn't change the fact both are technically acceptable. After all, we are given 90 minutes to complete a dungeon. As long as we finish within that time frame, it's successful as far as the devs are concerned. That's the problem with the bare minimum argument. No one likes when DPS or Tanks utilize half their kits but seem to be okay when healers do it. I, personally, don't expect raiders in my DF. I do expect an equal amount of effort. If you can't be arsed to press a GCD every 2.5 seconds, well, I may not be arsed to carry you through content. Why should I do all the work when you aren't willing to equally contribute?

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Originally Posted by Hamada

And what game have you ever heard of when a producer is saying it is ok for one class role can push a button once a minute while DPS/tank roles need a 50 + APM or so? This thread and statement rather is an insult to all those that try their best seeing "it is ok to be lazy"

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I'll cite Everquest 1 and the difference between playing a Cleric vs a Druid, both healer classes and both in a raid environment. I played Druid so it was expected of me to keep the main tank party topped off, heal my own party, heal the off tank if a raid required and root/rot or snare/kite adds. Often doing most of this all together. While clerics got to....stand in one spot with their heads buried in walls to cut down on lag, out of any AOE range and just do their Complete Heal rotation on the main tank. This was the game as designed by the producer. Then again we never really complained about it period, we just got it done.

Yoshi is not infallible; the dev team does not always expect the players to approach content in the way that they do. He's also not entirely correct. Gordias without healer DPS was absurd.

Beating a dead horse, I find healer DPS a manner of respect.

If I'm putting my attention and effort into a dungeon or battle, I expect others to do the same. I will ask an afk SCH in Sas or Tam-Tara to stop watching Netflix or playing on his phone for the same reason. If he doesn't, I will kick him because that's insanely disrespectful to the group. Why should I carry this person who does nothing at all for 3/4 of the run?

Why should I be expected to put in my full effort and attention if you're not willing to?

Also, finally, as a healer main, why wouldn't you want to DPS? DPS is mitigation, especially now that you don't have the Cleric Stance excuse. SCH and AST can slow the mobs with Shadow Flare and Gravity, making tanks take less damage. WHMs have even less of a reason not to use Holy, as it stops tanks from taking damage for more than 10 seconds! It makes your job easier, why wouldn't you want something to help the tank take less damage?

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

DPS IS NOT MANDATORY FOR HEALERS! To state otherwise is nothing more than your opinion....not fact or intended game design!

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Lets be honest here. If there is very little to heal or if the dps is very tight, healers will still be expected to dps.

It's a case of as long as the game mechanics allow for healers to dps then they will always be expected to when they can.

Unless the mana efficiency of dps or healing has dropped considerably, I don't think the community will see much difference in what is expected of healers.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

If healers don't DPS I tend to ignore my defensive cooldowns. I like to provide my healer with more job that way. ^^

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I'm sorry but this is foolish and petty.

"If healers don't [do something beneficial but optional], I tend to [not utilize tools of my job meant for proper execution of my primary role.] I like to [complicate my healer's primary role for not performing something secondary to it] that way."

You'd be the very reason they're discouraged from dpsing, and all out of some foolish sense of spite.
Here's a tip: when you do your job properly, it allows the rest of the party to not only do theirs properly, but possibly do more. And even then it's still optional.

The content in the game is designed to be beaten without the healer doing damage. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be doing damage.

Just like how you can beat that same content with 3/4 of your damage dealers doing proper damage and the last guy doing 50% of what he's capable of. A party being successful is based on the sum of its parts.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You've got damage buttons, you don't always need to be healing, press them. Why wouldn't you want to weave in other abilities during downtime, the game is more fun if you've got something to do.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Yoshi stated during a previous live letter that healer dps was not included in the dps checks when Raids were being tested. Every content is 100% clearable without healer DPS. He also stated that healer DPS can be used to make up the difference if actual DPS weren't bringing enough of it. Healer DPS is a bonus to helpclear content, not a requirement. In early stages of savage content I'm sure it can make a difference in a clear or not, just like tank dps can but once people get used to the content and are not undergeared for it, then healer DPS doesn't make as much of a difference.

By design healer DPS is not required, its a bonus. As long as the party lives, I don't really care if the healer does dps or not. Its a nice bonus but I won't be bothered by the dungeon taking an extra 5 min to complete.

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But using Virus/E4E or Raising as SMN or Apok as BLM or Divine Veil as PLD or MP/TP/Foe Song as BRD or Goad/Shadewalker as NIN is also optional... and I know quite a few occasions were a player gets yelled at in harder content for not using those abilites, especially if it would have prevented a wipe. Esp. SMN with Raise or Songs as BRD.

Should we even argue with people who refuse to use those things?
Now in Stormblood we get even more of those optional stuff and I for myself hope at some point, that the community expects the use of certain abilities in certain situations/trials.

The only difference is the commonness of situations were you can do "optional" things. But pretty much every role is expected to use them (especially if they're experienced players), the harder the content the more they should try to.

Why and when should a BRD play an "optional" song and why and when should a healer do "optional" dps? The answer is pretty much the same: Whenever it makes sense and they are able to.

What does a healer who is not dps-ing in Spehiroth for a whole of 50s where no damage at all is coming in because of colour buffs? 50 SECONDS! Only running around and "oh, I am green, me go front" or "broooown, me go left"? Wow.

Start of A9n/s, 15s without anything happening? Let's see how often I can run around refurbisher, yay.

And why give DPS Bloodbath at all? Isn't this kinda senseless, if people are intended to be healed by a healer?

Manaward/-wall for Blackmage? If the BLM needs to stay in an AoE instead of using those abilities he should yell at the SCH for not pre-shielding him?
"His job is to shield and only because he's not doing his job "right" I have to use my "optional" shield ability? Nope, sir."
And a SCH not dps-ing has all the MP and time to put up a single Adloquium on everybody all the time, just saying.


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People should just stop with this BS and at least try to use the full potential of their job. Yes, dungeons and other low-difficult content are one side and often enough I don't care as long as the run gets over. But this drags over to the harder content as well and the excuses are pretty much the same.
If you do the latest ex primal or similar you either try your best and try to get even better or, well, just buy the clear. Some principles won't let you do it? gtfo.

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Originally Posted by Seryne

Tbh I think I'd fall asleep if I didn't DPS. I don't get how other healers can just stand around doing nothing until someone takes damage. It's so boring!

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Play AST, then you can play with cards during those moments

I don't understand Healers that refuse to use their DPS capabilities. Take dungeons, they're already boring as hell with me helping DPS to make it go faster.. if I couldn't DPS it would mind numbing.
I loved playing a healer in XI, with its slower combat system that required fast reactions from the healing jobs as it had no telegraphs and giant marks. It was fun, it was challenging.. and our DPS was crap unless you were a SCH or something.

But XIV has a more dynamic and fast environment, healer jobs have more than enough tools to contribute in more than one way with buffs and damage. You have damaging spells and lots of downtime. Do the math.

I only have one question:

Why should it matter to anyone's gameplay what Yoshi P says about anything?

Actually, I also have a second one:

If Yoshi P would say one shouldn't be expected to sing as a Bard, or use ninjutsu as a Ninja, would you support that as well?

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yet again both of these points are mute. A healer heals...a tank tanks and a DPS is to DPS. Anything above that in your opinion, NOTHING ELSE!

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So a tank doesn't have to DPS, a BRD doesn't have to sing and a RDM doesn't have to raise and so on? :)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Nevertheless, it may be better per se, but that doesn't change the fact both are technically acceptable. After all, we are given 90 minutes to complete a dungeon. As long as we finish within that time frame, it's successful as far as the devs are concerned. That's the problem with the bare minimum argument. No one likes when DPS or Tanks utilize half their kits but seem to be okay when healers do it. I, personally, don't expect raiders in my DF. I do expect an equal amount of effort. If you can't be arsed to press a GCD every 2.5 seconds, well, I may not be arsed to carry you through content. Why should I do all the work when you aren't willing to equally contribute?

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<3

Healers not DPSing when there is nothing much to do, and the incoming damage is not a surprise tankbuster nobody knew about, will always get flak from me for being lazy. The same goes for tanks not doing anything but spamming their aggro combo when they are far ahead, and DPS not using their self-healing/support abilities and/or not dodging avoidable damage.

I dont care if that triggers/offends/hurts anybody, I dont consider the bare playable minimum of effort to be acceptable, and the race to the bottom is something I dont intend to play with. If you happen to be in my duty finder roulettes, and lazy, you ll not get a commendation, and a kickvote if its really blatant.


I mean, this discussion is ridiculous, we have so many people here advocating for the least possible effort. 90 minutes is the dungeon timer? Really? Yoshi P says something we can PROVE is not correct the last time he said it? You really need a game designer to give you permission to slack and near-fail?

Whatever happened to trying to be good at something we all spend so many hours doing in our leisure time?

My favorite threads or posts are when someone quotes or refers to something Yoshi-P said to "settle" an argument, which is usually either just solely his opinion or something that shows he's clearly out of touch with his own game. Then again, he's also had the balancing team call him to correct his verbal mistakes on skills during LLs, so why am I not even surprised?

Why you continue opening this post if no one of you will agree never? People in the end will play as they like. If not, they just will stop play. Simple as that. If you attack a player for not play as you like will happen one of this things. The player will stop play, or he simply ignores you.

Sorry to say, but the rule "Healer must DPS" is a community invented rule demanded by the 1% of the people who plays. It is not even a rule at all. So why still continue the discussion? I've never seen a healer being kicked for not DPS in a single dungeon. Most people is ok with a healer not DPSing. Because most people don't enter Reddit/Forums at all. The game says "You're a healer" and the people says "Ok". You can call all the only healing healers lazy all you want, it won't happen anything. As much you will find a game master telling you stop insult others if you say something rude in a dungeon.

It is a game, not a job.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Healer = Healing + Dealing Damage
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Dealing Damage

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What happened to the fact that:

• Tanks have DPS combos for higher potency attacks when you've enough Enmity.
• Tanks have cooldowns that increases their damage output.
• Tanks have cooldowns that increase incoming healing, reduce incoming damage, or prevent incoming damage completely.
• Paladins have spells such as Clemency or Divine Veil.

• Bards have things like Mage's Ballad, Foe Requiem, Army's Paeon, The Warden's Paean.
• Summoner (along with Red Mage coming soon) have access to combat resurrection.
• Ninja has Smoke Screen, Shadewalker and Goad.
• Machinist has Promotion (TP/MP regen), Dismantle and Rend Mind.

• Astrologian have access to card system to increase party's damage output, restore resources or increase damage resistance.

Should I just stop using these since they don't belong to "main job" of each role?

• Why should I pop cooldowns or use DPS combo as tank? I'm keeping mobs on me just fine my repeating 1-2-3 combo over and over
• Why should I use Clemency or Divine Veil as Paladin? It's healers job to heal, not mine.
• Why should I worry about incoming damage, if I take more damage? Just press your heal twice every 30 seconds instead of once.
• Why should I worry about party MP or TP situation as Machinist or Bard? If I use Army's or Mage's.. it'll actually lower my damage output, so no thanks. You have your own ways of restoring MP/TP.
• Why should I use Foe as Bard? It increases magic damage, I'm shooting arrows.
• Why should I use combat resurrection as Summoner or Red Mage? It'll hinder my ability to do DPS and uses chunk of MP, you can do it healer. And with casting heal every 15 seconds, you should have reserves to do so.
• Why should I help tank with Smoke Screen or Shadewalker as Ninja? Tank is already only using Enmity rotation, so there's very small chance that I might grab enmity from him/her.
• Why should I use Goad as Ninja? I can't use it on myself, so it won't increase my DPS.
• Why should I use Dismantle or Rend as Machinist? It only decreases enemy's damage, so I gain nothing from using it.
• Why should I use cards as Astrologian? Why should I use them on anybody but myself? My job is to heal, nothing else.

I don't have something against Healer DPS, so long it is not forced on them.

The priority should always be:
#1 Heal if needed
#2 Buff if possible
#3 do dmg if nothing else is to do and you think that the tank can survive the next 15 sec without a heal

So even the big guy himself confirms that dpsing as a healer is just optional: thanks for the info, I'll make sure to remind it whenever I make some teams "angry" because I decided to focus more on healing.

Thank God I'm a tank though, can only take so much toxicity.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Stuff.

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That's fine. If your group decides to kick you for being a lazy teammate you can go complain to Yoshi P. and see how far that gets you.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I am going to quote a person from youtube named Sotrubaby when he stated "When you EXPECT a healer to dps, you EXPECT a dps to heal you". That is all that needs to be said!

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RDM says hi with its 6000 heals and more rezzes per second than any healer in the game could dream of. Also SMN rezzing. And for self healing there's bloodbath and second wind.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There are no "Heal/DPS Checks" per se. They setup the dungeons so that if you are meeting the level/ilevel, you can pass it using the roles set (DPS, Tank, Healer) doing only their role. This is a concept that players invented to justify kicking players that aren't equipped with the right gear. If anything, the 24-man raids are actually designed with more carry-weight knowing that people will be disconnected or crash.

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There most certainly exist DPS checks. There are several places where mechanics is such that if you do not kill certain things quickly enough you will wipe. The best known example would be the Infernal Nail(s) in the Ifrit trial. If the party's average damage per second dealt against those is too low, then it is a wipe. That is a DPS check.

I'm just surprised how mad people get that they play with players of varying skill and attentiveness in a random queue... Not everyone is going to try hard especially for farm content in a random queue. If you want everyone you play with to try hard like you do then join a free company with that mentality and run things with them.

Edit

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

There most certainly exist DPS checks. There are several places where mechanics is such that if you do not kill certain things quickly enough you will wipe. The best known example would be the Infernal Nail(s) in the Ifrit trial. If the party's average damage per second dealt against those is too low, then it is a wipe. That is a DPS check.

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If the game is designed to around a healer not being required to DPS then failing a DPS check is just as much the DPS players fault as anyone else. It means they are also under performing.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

RDM says hi with its 6000 heals and more rezzes per second than any healer in the game could dream of. Also SMN rezzing. And for self healing there's bloodbath and second wind.

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Party Leader: "More dmg, RDM"
RDM:"Can't do it. I need all the MP to heal. Ask the healer for more damage"

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Originally Posted by Felis

Party Leader: "More dmg, RDM"
RDM:"Can't do it. I need all the MP to heal. Ask the healer for more damage"

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Healers are both dead and no summoner in the party. "Rez us RDM!"

"Can't I'm not a healer I'm a dps."

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Originally Posted by Albinosmurfs

If the game is designed to around a healer not being required to DPS then failing a DPS check is just as much the DPS players fault as anyone else. It means they are also under performing.

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Oh, definitely. In fact it will be almost entirely the DPS players fault if DPS checks fail.
As I said earlier, that DPSing as healer is supposed to be optional doesn't really mean anything except that DPS checks are designed to be possible to beat without the healer doing any damage.
It will of course be easier to meet DPS checks if the healer(s) contribute, as well as if the tank(s) maximize their damage output. It just won't be necessary for them to do that if the DPS players are doing their job properly.