Please do something about mentor roulette instant-leaves

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Then you will get reported to SE. This is obvious illegal behaviour. Which is not the case of dodging. Furthermore you will probably be kicked too.

It's a game but if we can make it a better place, I won't say no :-)

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Good luck proving that's what they did and not an actual emergency. The second bolded part is why this quest for vendetta is beyond ridiculous and has been for a while now.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Then you will get reported to SE. This is obvious illegal behaviour. Which is different than dodging. And you will probably be kicked too.

It's a game but if we can make it a better place, I won't say no :-)

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And how do you know its "obvious illegal behaviour"? I could give you a reason in chat like "Would you mind holding on for a few minutes, my cat just made a mess in the living room and I need to clean it up!" - the party can ofc decided that no, they dont want to wait and rather kick me, but as long as I dont let you know that I'm faking my afk's and even give you legit reasons for it I might get my 5 more minutes in... or 10, you know, I've got a second cat and they both had this weird new food, you see...?

Agree fo the report to SE part.
But the kick part still works.

And it's possible to implement something that stops the reward chrono if you don't move/act at all for 30s (which never happens).

Who's talking about vendetta? I am sure that kind of system would profit to both mentors and apprentice.

There is almost always a solution, but you won't get it if you don't look for it.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

There is almost always a solution, but you won't get it if you don't look for it.

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While personally I agree it's a phenomenon, SE so far seems to disagree that there's a problem and that's what counts, and that's what most people in this thread have forgotten. Both what Mentors are supposed to do, as well as punishment for leaving a duty, be it a Mentor or any other player, is not dictated by us. While it's possible this will change in the future, currently, it has not.

You are too focus on problems and not enough on solution :p

Well I am the kind of players who tags on Titan Ex DF when I am bored and help people without expecting anything back. As a healer, I have a lot of influence since I can fix mistakes and playing with newcomers is very challenging and fun. So when I look at what's happening, I am very disappointed. Too many people only care about themselves. Few are the ones who agrees to play with players with less experience. And when you move closer to the end-game content, the most challenging task is to find a team to play with, not to succeed the fights.

Those are the reason why my friends and I stopped playing ff one year ago. I (and only I) am back because Stormblood is coming, but SE should really think about fixing that because I may leave again.
My last suggestion is one step in that direction.

I will send it to SE. Maybe a miracle will occur ^^

I'm all for looking for solutions, but you have to realize that any changes have consequences. You have to think of the consequences before implementing something. If I'm being rewarded simply for being in an instance, I no longer have incentive to clear it. I simply have to spend as much time inside of instances as possible. I can do poorly, not care that someone is taking damage, not care someone just died, I don't have to put in DPS to clear it faster. I just have to be there.

I can get rewarded for watching Netflix? Sign me up.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

This is why people hate mentors. They get their special crown but act with less responsibility than your average player.

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People irrationally hate mentors you mean. You are forgetting the other side of the coin where mentors get harassed by other players for attempting to help them so acting like mentors are the only problem is quite wrong.

I honestly rarely see Mentors leaving groups so I am unsure of how much of a problem it really is.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm all for looking for solutions, but you have to realize that any changes have consequences. You have to think of the consequences before implementing something. If I'm being rewarded simply for being in an instance, I no longer have incentive to clear it. I simply have to spend as much time inside of instances as possible. I can do poorly, not care that someone is taking damage, not care someone just died, I don't have to put in DPS to clear it faster. I just have to be there.

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You are also to focus on the problem. If you think a little you would find a solution to your problem. Adding a clearing reward multiplicator of x1.1 on the chrono of the quest should be a good fix to that.

If someone really wants to act as an ??????, nothing will stop him.

You are not even reading me. You chrono would be stopped after 30s of inactivity.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

You are also to focus on the problem. If you think a little you would find a solution to your problem. Adding a clearing reward multiplicator of x1.1 on the chrono of the quest should be a good fix to that.

If someone really wants to act as an ??????, nothing will stop him.

You are not even reading me. You chrono would be stopped after 30s of inactivity.

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Pushing a button every 30s while watching Netflix is easy.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

You are too focus on problems and not enough on solution :p

Well I am the kind of players who tags on Titan Ex DF when I am bored and help people without expecting anything back. As a healer, I have a lot of influence since I can fix mistakes and playing with newcomers is very challenging and fun. So when I look at what's happening, I am very disappointed. Too many people only care about themselves. Few are the ones who agrees to play with players with less experience. And when you move closer to the end-game content, the most challenging task is to find a team to play with, not to succeed the fights.

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I would like to point out a few things here:

Not meant as an attack, but when you say you're only helping with difficult duties when you're bored that means that you're rather doing anything else aswell most of the times - its still nice of you to help, but its worth noticing that to me at least.
I agree that someone who signs up for mentor roulette should be up for anything in theory - but most of the runs I got there so far were some ARR-dungeons (actually, my last runs in a rw: SV NM, DD, AV, Qarn NM - yes, I'm a very lucky person). Now if I would only queue up for mentor roulette if I'm so bored that I literally dont want to do anything else that would hurt queue times more than it would hurt people when I bail an EX-primal because I see no chance of clearing it. So the thing is a bit: I might be in the mood to help people with some random-dungeon but not carry them through Titan EX - whats the bigger loss here? Me not queuing up at all or me dropping out of a EX-primal party should I get one instead of a lowlevel dungeon? (Personally I would only drop after two wipes and no improvment)

Playing with newcomers is often enough far from fun. Its fun when they're willing to learn - and just as mentors should be willing to teach and we got good and bad ones there, you get good and bad newcomers. Had a newbie "healer" in Haukke NM recently who didnt healed me, didnt listen to any advice, in the end we kicked them. Wasnt fun. Not at all. And that wasnt even the worst example - I'm often enough greeted by new people not being willing to listen to given advice, no matter how friendly I'm trying. (Again, just yesterday: was helping a Sophia EX run and the WHM wouldnt use Cure III when everyone was stacked up. We wiped multiple times to her strong AoE-casts because the scholar couldnt heal enough. I explained two times and asked them to use it about four times. No reaction. Not fun.)

We also had the discussion about how veterans should help newbies with EX-primals - and quite a few people argued that a first kill for a newbie is more important than the desire of a veteran to farm that content. That veterans are selfish if they exclude people without kill experience - a bit like yours "people only care about themself". But again: This goes both directions - someone new joining an EX-primal without any knowledge of the fight because they couldnt bother to look it up or wanted to go blind only cares about themself aswell. Its not only the veteran who wants their bird - or the mentor who wants an easy roulette.

And yes, finding a decent team is the main-challenge of this game - grats for discovering that! Excuse my sarcsam here, but most endgame-fights that prove to be a bit more of a challenge are designed with the idea of a more or less fixed party in mind - they're not supposed to be cleared in DF. You are supposed to look for likeminded people, form statics, social networks, build up Linkshells, join an FC... not rely on the courtesy of strangers.
I'll sound harsh but: This is a game for people to have fun in - not a welfare organisation.

Personally, I'm often willing to help - even willing to help strangers. But I'm way, way more open to help out a friend - or the friend of a friend. Even without any reward - or rather: my reward is that I know when I need help someday, I can ask them to return the favour.

TL;DR.: Dont rely on strangers, that will disappoint you; Look for friends, build groups, do endgame-content that way.

(I hope this was focused enough on solutions - not the one about people leaving duties, maybe - but I dont acknowledge a real problem there or rather not one that needs more done than the current lockout we're having)

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Pushing a button every 30s while watching Netflix is easy.

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True :-(

I guess reporting and kicking that player is the last resort. If the player does that too often he may get SE's attention and get divine punishment.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

I guess reporting and kicking that player is the last resort. If the player does that too often he may get SE's attention and get divine punishment

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It could be someone with disabilities. Someone with some RL thing, but they still prefer to contribute by pushing that button rather than afk. Someone lagging. You toot your own horn at being helpful, but you're blind to the circumstances of other people, holding them to your standard, and you're too ban/report happy. Good luck proving they were doing this sort of thing intentionally to shirk their duties. Even if someone did say why they're slow-responding, you have no way of knowing if they're telling the truth of are watching Netflix. SE will continue erring on the side of caution - if you can't prove someone was acting this way intentionally, you have no case. And you won't be able to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Not meant as an attack, but when you say you're only helping with difficult duties when you're bored that means that you're rather doing anything else aswell most of the times - its still nice of you to help, but its worth noticing that to me at least.

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I help when I am bored, but it also happens when I am not if someone asks me. I don't know what is worth in adding words in my statement.

For the raid part, thanks for the tip but I know that. I was with my friends when I killed Nael and Bahamut.

Another potential improvement would be to split the mentor roulette so the mentor is sure to find something is ready to do.

As a conclusion I like the idea of rewarding the time experienced players spend with less experienced players. Even if I don't exactly know how yet.

But honestly, thanks for you reactions though, this was interesting.

Bye and maybe see you ingame one day.

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Originally Posted by Pence

How do you propose they fix this? A penalty already exists.

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Disable abandon duty for 30 minutes when entering as a mentor. Then (even if it's horrible) they'll be invested in the duty for 30 minutes. So they might as well finish it.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Disable abandon duty for 30 minutes when entering as a mentor. Then (even if it's horrible) they'll be invested in the duty for 30 minutes. So they might as well finish it.

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Nah, they will just force d/c.

edit: Basically it boils down to: You can not force people to do something they don't want to do, so coming up with new ideas to do that is destined to fail. If you want people to stay in content then the reward for it has to be great enough for them to want to stick it out even if it is not something they are particularly fond of doing.

Is that right or fair? I don't know, but unfortunately it's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Nah, they will just force d/c.

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Make it so if they force d/c they can't log on for 24 hours. And if that fails... shark tanks!

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Make it so if they force d/c they can't log on for 24 hours. And if that fails... shark tanks!

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Oh no! Not the sharks!

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Oh no! Not the sharks!

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And if all else fails... send in the Death Star.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Make it so if they force d/c they can't log on for 24 hours.

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We have now upgraded to banning people for 24 hours for having internet connectivity problems. Amazing.

edit: I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

We have now upgraded to banning people for 24 hours for having internet connectivity problems. Amazing.

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And ban them for life if they don't understand sarcasm on forums!

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Originally Posted by TarynH

And ban them for life if they don't understand sarcasm on forums!

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Yeah I literally edited that post as you wrote that XD;

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Yeah I literally edited that post as you wrote that XD;

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Yeah there's no way to fix people bailing from roulette that will make everyone happy. I guess they could just program it so if you bail instantly, your percentage to get that same duty increases to 95% for the next 24 hours. =D

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Yeah there's no way to fix people bailing from roulette that will make everyone happy. I guess they could just program it so if you bail instantly, your percentage to get that same duty increases to 95% for the next 24 hours. =D

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As mentioned before in this thread, doing so would be counter productive to helping queues along. If a party is desperate for a tank, a tank will be given to them through a roulette, that tank won't be forced to wait until the next Shiva EX instance is up. Not to mention that anything of this sort is likelier to make people stop using the roulette, which would further hurt queues. Stands to reason they haven't done anything more than they did so far, really. Only thing that could really help is to increase the awards rather than the punishment, but not only is that tricky, it's still not guaranteed to work..

Well this escalated quickly. I go afk to watch a tv show and we go from Sharks to the Death Star?!

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Well this escalated quickly. I go afk to watch a tv show and we go from Sharks to the Death Star?!

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Yousa see the big bombad boomers of thisan... *cough* *cough* Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational Mentor Roulette!

The only real way I can see to curb people bailing on the mentor roulette is if a) the daily reward was actually worthwhile (meaning something that isn't just some lore/scripture) and b) bailing burns your daily reward so you can't just eat the penalty and try your luck again 30 minutes later. No matter how bad you make the punishment, it won't incentivize people to stick out dungeons they don't like, but an actual worthwhile reward that they can't get if they bail will.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

The only real way I can see to curb people bailing on the mentor roulette is if a) the daily reward was actually worthwhile (meaning something that isn't just some lore/scripture) and b) bailing burns your daily reward so you can't just eat the penalty and try your luck again 30 minutes later. No matter how bad you make the punishment, it won't incentivize people to stick out dungeons they don't like, but an actual worthwhile reward that they can't get if they bail will.

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I don't get why people latch onto the daily bonus for this. We need 2000 of the suckers - no one is farming the mentor roulette just the one time a day. The bonus is irrelevant when dealing with this particular roulette.

Final solution: when someone ditch the duty, mentor or not, you ...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i..._maMjVIcb8BuHQ

Maybe instead of trying to figure out harsher penalty's for leaving, it might be better to incentivize mentors to stay in those duties. Farming the Achievement (the 2000 one) is an insanely tedious grind, assuming each duty you are in takes 10 minutes, you are spending about 333 hours of doing mentor roulette, which is about 2 straight weeks of doing nothing but mentor roulette. A lot of people (whether you like it or not) who are doing mentor roulette don't give a care in the world if they are a mentoring or not, they are doing it to finish the 2000 achievement for the mount or whatever other reason. The fact is, towards that achievement a guildhest (which takes 2-5 minutes) is equal to a dungeon (which takes upwards 15-20 minutes), both are worth 1 point, but both take vastly different amounts of time to complete. Maybe instead of having each duty be worth 1 point, the system should look something more like this:

Guildhest - 1 Point
Trials(anything that would be in trail roulette) - 2 points
Raids(Alex Normal stuff) - 3 points
Dungeons - 5 points
Longer Raids (Crystal Tower/ Void Ark) - 7 points
Extreme Trials (+ coil if that's even in mentor roulette)- 15 points

Having something like this might incentivize mentors more to stay in the longer and more difficult duties.

Granted, a bonus will still not necessarily keep people in a duty they don't want, but I agree that we should be thinking more of positive incentives rather than punishments. The former will only keep people from running the roulette - which we don't want, while a bonus will tip the scale favorably for a lot of people - people will still bail, mind, but we'll be increasing the number of mentors who won't bail on a duty because it'll be more worth their time now. Furthermore, I still hold that a bigger bonus should be given for duties where there's an actual first timer, as in there you're far likelier to actually mentor, compared to just filling a queue slot.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

If a mentor goes into mentor roulette and leaves I believe the penalty should be harsher. The entire point of that status is to help improve others, by leaving at the start of the run you're not doing what the system was intended for.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

The point of the status to help improve new player skill by offering advice and answering questions.

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"Introduced in patch 3.2, Mentor Roulette allows mentors to join duties that are struggling to find members. Players can earn exclusive achievements from participating in this roulette.

Players using this Roulette must be level 60 and have at least an average item level of 230." -https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Duty_Roulette

You're not doing what the role of a mentor is supposed to do IF YOU JOIN AND LEAVE. Improving player skill also means EXPLAINING DUNGEONS AND MECHANIC.

I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You're not doing what the role of a mentor is supposed to do IF YOU JOIN AND LEAVE.

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Literally nowhere in what you quoted does it say we're not allowed to leave an instance. It just says it's there to supplement queues, and I explained before why even insta-leaving might actually help with that. If leaving the Mentor roulette was truly against SE's policy, the button would have been disabled - alas, it is not, ergo.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Mentor status should never have had any rewards, not even the crown by the character name. People who want to help will help regardless, but incentivizing mentoring via rewards just brings in the bad people.

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While some say it's bad I see the rewards as a benefit to mentors who had no reason to join the mentor roulette in the first place, I know I didn't till they added them cause I had much more important things to do then do dungeons for tomes I didn't need. Mentors do have their own agenda's to follow and are not anyone's personal slave to command. The rewards got my butt in there and I helped/carried/taught/argued with a lot of people but I mostly got shown disrespect for helping so a lot of Mentors are not very advice giving/helping unless asked first.

Also on topic as a mentor who helps and is more friendly on some days rather then others I do leave if I did get a dungeon/EX in mentor roulette that I just didn't have the energy/time for. I would tell myself "Ok one more alex, guildhest, primals before I head out/sleep/work/ect. so while they thought I might have left due to not wanting to be there it was just that I had my reasons for needing to leave but I would at least explain to them first. I get mad a mentors who act selfish tho by afking or asking for a kick rather then taking the penalty but that is rare from what i've seen. Also im not a tank/healer so I am easily replaced when I did leave.

I would like to see the mentor system tho have stricter requirements to become a mentor, to many fakes wearing the crowns.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Improving player skill also means EXPLAINING DUNGEONS AND MECHANIC.

I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend.

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Actually explaining dungeons and mechanics has nothing to do with improving player skill. Rotations, class roles, situational awareness, cooldown usage, and the like are player skill. Telling people to eat fruit at X stacks in Aurum Vale doesn't make me a mentor. Telling the WHM to try to keep regens up to counter act the DoT or use Divine Seal to increase the power of their Medicas does or recommending the WAR pairs Vengeance with Beserk+Bloodbath+Overpower at the beginning of big pulls or when the BRD should play a particular song.

Also I can't think of many dungeons that actually need an explanation of mechanics and if you queue up for an EX Primal you should probably read at least a text guide/ a summary of the boss's abilities.

I wonder how many mentors are doing it only for a mount and will never touch it again after 2,000 roulettes.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I don't get why people latch onto the daily bonus for this. We need 2000 of the suckers - no one is farming the mentor roulette just the one time a day. The bonus is irrelevant when dealing with this particular roulette.

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Because the bigger problem isnt that mentors are leaving instances they got in mentor-roulette but rather people leaving any dungeon they got by using one of the other roulettes. And then the daily-bonus matters. I'm not saying that mentors dont drop out in mentor roulette and that it doesnt suck (specially when it happens with an EX-primal for example its a lot worse than just someone leaving Sastasha), but the majority of drop-outs is most likely happening because someone got an annoying dungeon for their lowlevel-roulette or something like that - and those are mostly done for the bonus, so losing it would help to make people stay.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

I wonder how many mentors are doing it only for a mount and will never touch it again after 2,000 roulettes.

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The majority. There is very little reason to queue for that roulette other than the achievement award tiers.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Because the bigger problem isnt that mentors are leaving instances they got in mentor-roulette but rather people leaving any dungeon they got by using one of the other roulettes.

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And I agree, in general, but this thread is about this roulette in particular, and a lot of people are blaming Mentors even when, like you said, it was either not a mentor, or not from this roulette. Therefore, the daily bonus isn't as big a deal, within this context. Then again, if the phenomenon decreases, it might improve our reputation so threads like this stop and people are less out for Mentor blood. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let the requirement for the mount be 2,000 commendations in mentor roulette and maybe things changes.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Let the requirement for the mount be 2,000 commendations in mentor roulette and maybe things changes.

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You do know people just don't give out comms, even if we mentors give them help/advice. That would be insane.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

You do know people just don't give out comms, even if we mentors give them help/advice. That would be insane.

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Also force people to play tanks or healers. Not only is that still not a guarantee, a lot of us prefer not to, and would further deter people from running the roulette.