Live Letter XXX Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Except you're pretty much asking for it to be turned into something that's already being released in 3.35. Go do that if you don't enjoy the Aquapolis.

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I'm not. Palace of the Dead is completely different content in which the core concept is that you start off at low level and has its own progress separate from the main game. Aquapolis is high level content that uses your current stats.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It's your opinion that pentamelding high tier materia isn't fun.

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Who finds wasting money fun?

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

Who finds wasting money fun?

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Gamblers

/10char

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm not. Palace of the Dead is completely different content in which the core concept is that you start off at low level and has its own progress separate from the main game. Aquapolis is high level content that uses your current stats.

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Palace of the Dead is something that progressively gets more difficult. (something that's been suggested for the Aquapolis, in this thread)
Aquapolis is high level content that uses your stats, synced down to i180, so you can't overgear it.

While your suggestion of simply reducing the dungeon timer might work, 10-15 min is hardly enough to be considered a serious disadvantage. 30 min would be sufficient, giving groups a second chance if they get unlucky early on, without it being too much of an advantage for a group that already managed to get through 5 rooms.

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

Who finds wasting money fun?

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Pentamelding isn't limited to DoW/M. DoH (and to some extend, DoL) has pentamelding as well.

While I didn't enjoy pentamelding my way to 3-star stats, it sure wasn't a waste of money, considering I recuperated that amount and turned it into a profit, by selling 3-star crafted gear.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

While I didn't enjoy pentamelding my way to 3-star stats, it sure wasn't a waste of money, considering I recuperated that amount and turned it into a profit, by selling 3-star crafted gear.

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Fun aside, surely you must agree that they could make a more interesting barrier to entry to reach 3 star stats than a random number generator saying "pass" or "fail".

Same thing applies to Aquapolis.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Let's say you were playing a game. Let's say Super Mario Bros. And every step you take, there's a 1% chance that Mario will spontaneously combust, making you start over from the beginning of the game.

Tell me. Does that game sound fun?

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It's more like: After every few levels after beating the boss, you can access three different tubes. Two of them get you to the next level. But one of them gets you in a room with a couple koopa troopas, coins and three tubes again. Get lucky 7 times and you get many coins and up to 10x1up.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Fun aside, surely you must agree that they could make a more interesting barrier to entry to reach 3 star stats than a random number generator saying "pass" or "fail".

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3-star entry doesn't take heavy (or any) overmelds. Those melds just make it easier.

If Aquapolis wasn't RNG procession, then it would be low chance RNG drops, or items so abundant that they are worthless.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

To elaborate on what I mentioned, you could have two different rooms. One is the normal room, the other is booby trapped. It will apply a penalty to your group. Time reduction, Poison (can't clear), Paralysis, Reduced Healing. Etc. This makes it progressively more difficult to continue clearing. Think FF7 Battle Square.

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Actually thats a very good Idea!
We had that in FFVII Gold Saucer within the ARENA...
Still one thing to point out: It was clearable even with all negative effects!

RNG is choosing the penalty, if i remember right you always got one after a fight before the next fight. Still, there were some penalties who didnt hurt that much: no more item use allowed, no more magic allowed and so on... while others were hurting really hard -> 1/2 STR or 50% HP ... Ok to be fair: Players have chosen the penalty by stopping the wheel... experienced players could stop it on the penalty they wished for with stopping the wheel in the right time...

Yes please, such a System is much better!

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

People want fun content. There's nothing fun about RNG.

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lets see if portal was 100% spawn rate and no doors kicked you out then people would whinge its boring and repetative blah blah blah they wanted somethin different and they get it.. but wait they still complain and whinge because its not 100% honestly i feel sory for games programmers SE should stop listening to the fan base n just do as they planned to begin with

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

lets see if portal was 100% spawn rate and no doors kicked you out then people would whinge its boring and repetative blah blah blah they wanted somethin different and they get it.. but wait they still complain and whinge because its not 100% honestly i feel sory for games programmers SE should stop listening to the fan base n just do as they planned to begin with

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Yeah, dumb whining people. SE should have just gone with what they planned to begin with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39j5v8jlndM

...well that went well.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Actually thats a very good Idea!
We had that in FFVII Gold Saucer within the ARENA...
Still one thing to point out: It was clearable even with all negative effects!

RNG is choosing the penalty, if i remember right you always got one after a fight before the next fight. Still, there were some penalties who didnt hurt that much: no more item use allowed, no more magic allowed and so on... while others were hurting really hard -> 1/2 STR or 50% HP ... Ok to be fair: Players have chosen the penalty by stopping the wheel... experienced players could stop it on the penalty they wished for with stopping the wheel in the right time...

Yes please, such a System is much better!

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This idea, while being neat, would make more sense if they ever end up adding the Battle Square in this game's Gold Saucer.
Considering they're already experimenting with solo content (Palace of the Dead), it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Battle Square could become an option, if the Palace ends up as a successful feature.

The whole "spinning the wheel to choose your penalty" wouldn't even make much sense in the Aquapolis, that sounds more of an amusement park kind of thing. (exactly why it'd fit right in with the Gold Saucer)
It'd have to be reduced to a randomly booby trapped room, without the player having any choice in the matter. These traps would have to be equally serious, and actually have a good chance that the average group will fail at clearing the room (they did pick the wrong door, after all), and perhaps having it affect the reward in the 7th room. (something along the lines of "Triggering the trapped room has caused part of the 7th room to collapse, resulting in 10% of the riches to disappear")

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It'd have to be reduced to a randomly booby trapped room, without the player having any choice in the matter. These traps would have to be equally serious, and actually have a good chance that the average group will fail at clearing the room (they did pick the wrong door, after all), and perhaps having it affect the reward in the 7th room. (something along the lines of "Triggering the trapped room has caused part of the 7th room to collapse, resulting in 10% of the riches to disappear")

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So exactly what I said? Okay.

people whinge and complained every patch was a couple new linear dungeons boring blah blah, so SE listen and add somethin new different and exciting but those same people whinge because probably wont get to last room every time.. seriously SE are damned if they do damned if they dont.. theres just no pleasing people like you

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

This idea, while being neat, would make more sense if they ever end up adding the Battle Square in this game's Gold Saucer.

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Isn't this concept part of the Palace of the Dead ?

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

people whinge and complained every patch was a couple new linear dungeons boring blah blah, so SE listen and add somethin new different and exciting but those same people whinge because probably wont get to last room every time.. seriously SE are damned if they do damned if they dont.. theres just no pleasing people like you

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You dont play many dungeoncrawler games, do you?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So exactly what I said? Okay.

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It was adding to your idea, yes. I didn't see the "reduced rewards for picking the wrong door" part in your post, though.
Reducing RNG like this should come at a price, in this case a lower reward.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Isn't this concept part of the Palace of the Dead ?

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Hence the "Battle Square could become an option, if the Palace ends up as a successful feature." part of my post, because it'd build on another possibly/hopefully successful feature.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

You dont play many dungeoncrawler games, do you?

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Would you prefer the Aquapolis to be a repetitive dungeon that you'd be able to run countless of times for a small chance at something rare?

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Would you prefer the Aquapolis to be a repetitive dungeon that you'd be able to run countless of times for a small chance at something rare?

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You must play Wizardry!

SE should just do this:

100% chance to reach the 7th room regardless if choosed the right or wrong doors
every time the wrong door get choosed the chance to find something in the 7th room get reduced by 14%
This way players will still reach the 7th room and the penalty for choosing the wrong doors is still there

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Originally Posted by Felis

SE should just do this:

100% chance to reach the 7th room regardless if choosed the right or wrong doors
every time the wrong door get choosed the chance to find something in the 7th room get reduced by 14%
This way players will still reach the 7th room and the penalty for choosing the wrong doors is still there

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Or they could instead just make the encounters in the next room harder if you chose the "wrong" door. That way, you can substitute bad luck with skill, plus you can use it as justification for why you should get rewarded regardless.

I dunno, I personally loathe RNG in all its forms as game design.

Once this thing does come out, people will whine more about the rewards than the RNG.

I'm not sure why when the RNG part of progression in Aqua is brought up, people keep saying "it's only bonus content, why does it matter". Why can't something be challenging, fairly implemented, repeatable and rewarding? We already do dungeons and raids repeatedly every day/week, what is the problem with having new content to add to that cycle to break things up? Nobody is asking that the thing just be a free ride to floor 7 every time and be showered with tier V materia, red scrip mats and Ultima ponies. Just put some damn thought into the RNG portion other than "oh you're not psychic? Too bad jackass, try again next time".

*and yes, I realize RNG is the ultimate form of "fairness", I suppose I actually mean fair to the poor soul (s) that will undoubtedly pick wrong at the start almost every time.

Indeed, instead of RNG, I'd prefer some sort of puzzle that gets progressively more difficult to complete as you go down levels (with less time to complete each puzzle).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Indeed, instead of RNG, I'd prefer some sort of puzzle that gets progressively more difficult to complete as you go down levels (with less time to complete each puzzle).

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Ain't nobody got time for that.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Ain't nobody got time for that.

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haha what really?

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Originally Posted by Malakym

Why can't something be challenging, fairly implemented, repeatable and rewarding?

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Good thing they're releasing Palace of the Dead in 3.35, right?

Challenging? Check, Palace gets progressively more difficult with each floor.
Fairly implemented? Check, every player starts at the same point in the Palace, gear from outside the Palace doesn't grant any advantage.
Repeatable? I assume it's repeatable as often as you'd want.

Whether it's rewarding or not is something that isn't known yet, other than the bits of info that state something about gear obtained inside the Palace being usable as glamour.

As for puzzles, people would just upload guides on how to do every single puzzle, making them much easier to do after the first few weeks, forcing SE to balance the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

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As for puzzles, people would just upload guides on how to do every single puzzle, making them much easier to do after the first few weeks, forcing SE to balance the rewards.

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it is possible to design puzzles where the general way to solve it is known, but the exact way to solve it is not and requires you figure it out in the moment.

I also don't see that as a bad thing in comparison to RNG doors.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

haha what really?

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Its sad but true, people's AFK time is a sacred treasure that must be protected at all costs /s

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

haha what really?

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I was being pretentious, but yes, people really don't want to be bothered with puzzles. Look at how everyone wants to do everything quickly, have no caps on anything, get access to stuff instantly, and so forth. Puzzles would make people foam at the mouth. For those that would like to do the puzzles, having a puzzle in a dungeon that randomly spawns might not be the best thing and you'd have those that demand that you know the puzzles via youtube, so there's no joy in trying to figure out the puzzles blind when everyone else wants to rush for the gold.

Are people seriously complaining that they might fail? Some of us don't want everything to be handed to us on a silver platter. >_>

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Are people seriously complaining that they might fail? Some of us don't want everything to be handed to us on a silver platter. >_>

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I think it's sillier that the complaints are on the odds of making it to the end for content that's casual and not going to have something outstanding to shoot for.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Good thing they're releasing Palace of the Dead

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You keep repeating that as if somehow changing the door penalty will turn them both into the exact same thing. I'm not really sure why, they have enough differences already.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Are people seriously complaining that they might fail? Some of us don't want everything to be handed to us on a silver platter. >_>

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I agree. I don't need everything on a silver platter, but mostly I don't want the market to crash.

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Originally Posted by Malakym

You keep repeating that as if somehow changing the door penalty will turn them both into the exact same thing. I'm not really sure why, they have enough differences already.

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One is designed like something you described in your post (Palace of the Dead), the other isn't (Aquapolis)

This is an MMO, it's impossible for every single feature to be catered to every single player. You showed dislike to the RNG aspect of the Aquapolis, while other players might like that aspect.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I was being pretentious, but yes, people really don't want to be bothered with puzzles. Look at how everyone wants to do everything quickly, have no caps on anything, get access to stuff instantly, and so forth. Puzzles would make people foam at the mouth. For those that would like to do the puzzles, having a puzzle in a dungeon that randomly spawns might not be the best thing and you'd have those that demand that you know the puzzles via youtube, so there's no joy in trying to figure out the puzzles blind when everyone else wants to rush for the gold.

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No need to become sarcastic...
There is a reason why Zelda games survived that long and are still very popular!
I have never seen any Zelda game where you reached 7th floor "easily"

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

No need to become sarcastic...
There is a reason why Zelda games survived that long and are still very popular!
I have never seen any Zelda game where you reached 7th floor "easily"

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Zelda = Single Player Game
Zelda =/= MMO

There is a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Indeed, instead of RNG, I'd prefer some sort of puzzle that gets progressively more difficult to complete as you go down levels (with less time to complete each puzzle).

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We get this. But as another dungeon content.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I think it's sillier that the complaints are on the odds of making it to the end for content that's casual and not going to have something outstanding to shoot for.

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Honestly for me, it's less about probability and more about the current way being just lazy. If the wrong door made it so that the next floor was hard enough that you had a high chance of losing, the only difference would be that there was at least some gameplay involved, even if the result of losing the fight was the same as just being shunted out to begin with.

I don't know how I feel about your insinuation that casual content can't also be compelling, but I admit I may be reading that wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

No need to become sarcastic...
There is a reason why Zelda games survived that long and are still very popular!
I have never seen any Zelda game where you reached 7th floor "easily"

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Um, what are you saying?

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Originally Posted by Malakym

Honestly for me, it's less about probability and more about the current way being just lazy. If the wrong door made it so that the next floor was hard enough that you had a high chance of losing, the only difference would be that there was at least some gameplay involved, even if the result of losing the fight was the same as just being shunted out to begin with.

I don't know how I feel about your insinuation that casual content can't also be compelling, but I admit I may be reading that wrong.

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What I meant was people are getting hung up over the RNG for progressing to the next room when the rewards inside, to me, isn't really anything worth complaining about with the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

There is a reason why Zelda games survived that long and are still very popular!

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No Zelda game manage to count your playtime in months :p

But puzzles would still be a good idea. But it should be random generated puzzle, to keep them somehow fresh.