So people that end up stuck in a duty with a group of players that are purposely gimping themselves (think ice mages and people wearing level 1 glamour gear, both of which I've seen more than once) and pull the old "I play how I want" card when you try to ask them to do otherwise don't deserve to be able to leave if they wish to? If you end up in the Vault with a tank or a healer in i50 gear you're just shit out of luck for the entire lockout even though you know it's utterly futile (cause we all know Ser Charizard is a total asshole and will eat your party alive in either one of those cases)? No. That's just ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Honestly, if there was a ban of that long on Duty Finder, I would just take all chance completely out of the equation and queue in premades for all of my roulettes. That way we don't have to care about what dungeon we get as we can flatten anything that's put in front of us, and we don't have to worry about getting utter shitters that are just plain too heavy to carry. Let's face it, most of the problems that people have with "shitty dungeons" aren't really about the dungeon; they're really about shitty players making those dungeons especially miserable. In any case, think about how many people might feel the same way. That's that many less people in the queues. SE has already taken the step of making us able to queue for most of the roulettes in a party. You'd probably see a lot more parties up in Party Finder looking for people to queue with.
Luckily for all of us, the community rep already posted 2 or 3 pages back stating they have no plans to change the DF penalty at this time. It's not broken, so it doesn't need fixing and all we're really doing is talking ourselves around in circles here. :3
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05-06-2016, 06:05 AMAshkendor
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05-06-2016, 06:13 AMSicnoOh really? your original post was super broad and didn't specify such a focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatoi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatoi
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05-06-2016, 06:15 AMJatoiSee the word "many"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicno
It means "a number of". There's no "all". And believe me, many of the "ideas" are quite bad. From making gear durability to zero to ridiculously long lockouts and whatever in between.
But be as defensive as you'd like, do go on! -
05-06-2016, 07:23 AMFynlarIf you read the bolded parts in my post you'd notice the dripping, oozing hypocrisy.Quote:
What are you trying to say? He is entitled to leave if he wants to.
It's a laugh to call us all "self-entitled" and then display nothing but that yourself. -
05-06-2016, 11:01 AMDoranderGreat response, you understand it perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
* Same could be said to you, if you don't like people leaving - Go in with a a premade. Stop whining on the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
* Again, practice what you preach. Don't queue for a roulette and then whine because you can't force them to stick with a run.
* Yes, I "again" admit I don't give a flying rats butt about the other players of this game or If I inconvenience them. Guess what? You are nothing but an avatar on the screen for 15-20 minutes at best, and after that I'll probably never see you again. You (or myself if I leave) are easily replaceable.
Here's where it really comes to the heart of the discussion. The one thing you seem to have completely failed at taking into consideration is that SE is a business first and foremost. They want to make money. Cutting someone off from a CORE component of their game (DF and dungeons in general) for more than 30 minutes will make a player log off and go do something else. Subscriber retention is the name of the game. Keep them playing the game, and the subscription money will flow. That's why, with a 30 minute lock out, they can still go do something else in game for half an hour, then queue back in and get a whole new party and dungeon. Locking them out for anything longer.. and well.. you might as well say bye bye to that 15 bucks a month.
So, in the end... Your suggestion is nothing but a psychotic, heavy handed punishment for such a minimal offense. All because someone left, it inconvenienced you, and you took it personally. Get. Over. It.
With that, I've said my peace. If you still can't seem to grasp the situation.. The failing is on you, because I cannot make it any more plain. -
05-06-2016, 04:42 PMReynhartWhat part of "The existing penalty means that you shouldn't leave duties" your brain can't process ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorander
No, it still doesn't work that way. You queue for a random dungeon for a bonus. If you don't accept the random then you have nothing to do in a roulette.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorander
What's your next nonsense ? You'll queue as a tank but refuse to tank, and you'll ask us to go as a premade if we want to "force" you to tank ? -
05-06-2016, 05:30 PMBrian_
No, the existing penalty means that if you leave your duties you are locked out for 30 minutes. That is what it means. You are the one who is trying to make more of it and get more out of it because you are a petty, vindictive person.
You queue for a random dungeon and if you don't want to do it you can eat a 30 minute lock-out. That is what the roulette is. If you don't accept the random, there is a 30 minute penalty. End of that story.
The other day the tank left my sunken temple of qarn run after the first boss (which is worse than leaving at the start). I didn't come here and post numerous times ranting about how we need to ban that guy for 24 hours. I requeued, got into another dungeon, completed it, and went on with my life. -
05-06-2016, 09:13 PMSicnoActually yeah, my apologies, got super defensive even when you weren't talking about me. Been super grumpy these past days -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatoi
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05-06-2016, 10:24 PMMiles_Maelstrom
Does this really happen to people a lot? I mean this is just anecdotal, but I use the duty roulette quite often. I mean I leveled all but 2 jobs to 60 solely through it. I say the 2 omitted because they used the quests available in the world in addition to duty roulette. Through that time I believe I can count my bad experiences using my digit available so under 20. Am I some statistical anomaly or is this being blown out of proportion. It seems wierd that this problem, experienced at least by me so seldomly warrants this much hate and arguing.
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05-06-2016, 10:41 PMAshkendorMy recommendation is catnip. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicno
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05-06-2016, 10:51 PMRagnorak
its almost always blown out of proportion.
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05-06-2016, 11:01 PMLirion
I think they should delete your character from the server and then lock you out for a month from creating a new character if you leave DF. And you don't get a refund for your sub.
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05-07-2016, 02:12 AMLineageRazor
I'd be more okay with the punishment system as it stands - if not for the fact that so very, very many people defending it in this thread have an argument that basically boils down to, "I want the freedom to bail if I get stuck with bads." The fact that so many argue this indicates to me that the punishment is NOT doing its job. If it is not deterring you, then it is not a deterrent. Basically folks are saying, "The 30 minute penalty is enough, because if it was any longer then I would be inconvenienced when I decide to bail on a run, and I don't want that!" Do these people even understand what the purpose of a punishment is?
Folks say, "I don't want to carry bads," but that's the whole POINT of Roulette. You are being paid to assist your team in completing the run, REGARDLESS of who you wind up with. Whether you choose to silently carry the folks that don't measure up to your standards, or take a more active role in helping them to get better is up to you - but the very fact that anyone would choose to accept the penalty indicates that the penalty is not harsh enough. More carrot or more stick is needed, and carrot won't work because folks are already abandoning runs so they'll have an easier time grabbing the current carrots.
The fact that folks are so concerned about the possibility of being stuck with bads, too, indicates to me that either their standards of not-bad are WAY too high, or they're blowing an extraordinarily small segment of the game's population way out of proportion. The level of badness necessary to actually be unable to complete a dungeon is ridiculously high, and not something you're going to run into every day. Or every week. Or even every month. It comes across as folks wanting the ability to bail because they think a run is going to take 40 minutes instead of 20, and that is not an attitude that should be catered to or nurtured.
And, of course, for that even smaller portion of the population that is DELIBERATELY bad, such as the so-called "RP Ice mage", vote kick is always an option. These, though, are so absurdly rare that most players will never see one outside of some third-hand story posted on the forums. -
05-07-2016, 04:29 AMMrPresidentDon't forget jail time. If you had time to do a dungeon then you have time to go to jail for 20-30 years if you quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lirion
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05-07-2016, 04:32 AMMilesSaintboroguhDon't be so wishy washy. Go for the death penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPresident
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05-07-2016, 04:50 AMSettiesamaDon't forget eternal damnation for the heinous crimeQuote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
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05-07-2016, 05:47 AMWelsper59So marriage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Settiesama
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05-07-2016, 05:57 AMAniforani
Rather than punish the person who leaves why not apply a party buff like the echo effect to those who remain. Make it potent enough that they could at least progress in the dungeon until a replacement is found. Hell, for a lot of content SE could even have an NPC of the missing class join and the party could complete it.
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05-07-2016, 06:06 AMMilesSaintboroguhThen why not just have the echo buff on all the time or let people go solo with NPCs if that's the case?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aniforani
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05-07-2016, 06:12 AMAniforani
The echo buff is used to help people progress when they cannot. If you are in a dungeon without enough people to progress shouldn't it be applied? If it was applied temporarily to a group until a replacement was found at least they could do something in a dungeon besides wait. As far as the mention of having an npc replace the player that left until a replacement was found,what is the issue? Did you leave the dungeon to punish the party, or because you had something else to do?
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05-07-2016, 06:14 AMLaylaTsarra
I must be playing a different game or be blessed but people leaving my dungeon instances it pretty rare and I run tons of content. It was once a problem before they instituted a penalty with people leaving. Now it's happens from time to time but certainly it's far to be a chronic problem that SE needs to address.
Happy to see the comments of the community service rep in this thread who has said there are no plans to change it at this time. I suspect SE has hard numbers relative to how many leave duties and can make decisions based on that data. -
05-07-2016, 07:13 AMErim-Nelhah
I also rarely see people leave my roulettes, and I've never decided to take a penalty over whatever duty a roulette tossed my way.
That said, the only thing I would even consider doing is making it so that when you enter a duty for a roulette, that roulette gets locked to that duty until the duty is completed or the daily reset happens, whichever is first.
For those of you who are saying people shouldn't leave due to bads, there are 2 better ways to deal with them:- Try to help them improve. If they get defensive, shrug it off.
- Kick them. Personally, I might try to help them improve first, but a lot of people get defensive about that (I wonder how many people don't realize you can't send or receive tells while you're in a duty).
For those of you who don't want leaving to be an option at all, would you like to feel forced to remain in a situation you really didn't want to be in? I didn't think so. Please try not to force others to remain in situations they don't want to be in.
--Erim Nelhah -
05-07-2016, 12:15 PMPellsThere's already a thread for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...kup-Megathread! -
05-07-2016, 01:03 PMstarLivitationI have suggested from the begining a better method but SE just did a flat 30m.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzy
if u look at a game called LOL , the first time u skip a queue its not a big deal, like 3-5m wait.
but try it again, it becomes bigger let's say 15m , 30m, 1 hour etc.
now i would suggest they reset this on a weekly basis, with the max set to 1 or 2 hour.
so those who frequently leave duty for no reason, will end up at either 1 or 2 hour eventually, and this will make them think twice about this.
if they keep resset it on a daily basis then the punishment is not big enuf . -
05-07-2016, 01:19 PMSettiesama
People seem to have forgotten what will happen if the punishment is increased. The number of forced D/Cs goes up, people will idle/refuse to do anything until people kick them even more than they already do. Being kicked = punishment? Way too easily abused, and there are people out there who will do this for the hell of it just for lols.
30 minutes is fine as it is, if you sign up for a roulette, expect anything to happen, including noobs and people leaving. You can not hold people against their will in a game when they don't want to be there for whatever reason, or have something important they urgently need to go for, but can be back in a short amount of time, just long enough to hinder a run. -
05-07-2016, 01:59 PMstarLivitationthey can simply add an Quit pentalty as well which includes Fake DCs ( like when i close my client etc ) u know u can dc from a duty even in battle by forcing ffxiv app to close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Settiesama
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05-07-2016, 02:54 PMFynlarYour point is excellent. Sadly, those sorts of tanks already do exist :/Quote:
What part of "The existing penalty means that you shouldn't leave duties" your brain can't process ?
No, it still doesn't work that way. You queue for a random dungeon for a bonus. If you don't accept the random then you have nothing to do in a roulette.
What's your next nonsense ? You'll queue as a tank but refuse to tank, and you'll ask us to go as a premade if we want to "force" you to tank ?
Your comparison sucks, by the way. If they are at least fulfilling their role and keeping people alive that is hardly a "carry"Quote:
As for your second point - Healers pull that crap all the time. They queue into a dungeon and say "I'm only going to heal" and just stand there doing squat between heals. You are basically carrying them through the dungeon while they put forth absolute minimal effort. It is exactly as if a dps only auto attacked, or a tank barely keeps threat and doesn't use defensive cooldowns.
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05-07-2016, 03:15 PMDoranderWhat if a tank is only keeping threat, but not using defensive cooldowns, they are still fulfilling their 'role' by making sure the mobs are hitting them and not the party, but they are taking so much damage that the healer is running out of MP each pull, that is carrying. What if it's a dps, barely doing their 1-2-3 combo, and not avoiding AoEs, they are also performing their role, they are doing damage.. just not as well as they could and not avoiding avoidable damage stressing their healer, that is also carrying. If a healer refuses to use half it's skillset (the dps stuff), sure it's still performing it's role and keeping the party alive, but they are putting forth only minimal effort on their part. So yes, my comparison works. Minimal effort on a player's part = carry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
People do it all the time. Some even admit to watching netflix off to the side while doing a dungeon, standing around at times when they could be helping to clear faster. I've seen countless WHM, SCH, and AST standing there doing their little staff/book/globe dance for an entire encounter/pull and only tossing a single cure/physic/benefic. Sometimes not even that if the tank is good enough. They just stand there doing jack. That is carrying and will always be carrying. -
05-07-2016, 04:24 PMSicnoAnd then they'll just pull the plug on their modem.Quote:
Originally Posted by starLivitation
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05-07-2016, 05:51 PMFynlarIf a tank isn't keeping threat and getting their ass kicked much harder than they need to be, they are failing at their main role: to tank.Quote:
What if a tank is only keeping threat, but not using defensive cooldowns, they are still fulfilling their 'role' by making sure the mobs are hitting them and not the party, but they are taking so much damage that the healer is running out of MP each pull, that is carrying.
If a DPS is killing so slowly that it's causing problems for the run in the sort of ways you say, they are failing at their main role: to do damage.Quote:
What if it's a dps, barely doing their 1-2-3 combo, and not avoiding AoEs, they are also performing their role, they are doing damage.. just not as well as they could and not avoiding avoidable damage stressing their healer, that is also carrying.
Hint: this is different from the previous two examples. If you still don't get why, read it carefully.Quote:
If a healer refuses to use half it's skillset (the dps stuff), sure it's still performing it's role and keeping the party alive, but they are putting forth only minimal effort on their part. So yes, my comparison works. Minimal effort on a player's part = carry.
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05-07-2016, 06:19 PMKorinthThis might to true in most games, however, in -this- one, it's laid out rather clearly even in the instructional level 15 content (The Hall of the Novice) that healers jobs are to keep the party alive -whilst- assisting in damage. It's not just something they should do if they feel like it. It's part of their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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05-07-2016, 07:31 PMSettiesamaLike someone mentioned, turn the net off/unplug modem. If these get the punishment so do people who d/c naturally without wanting too. Face it, it's a case without a win here. People will always find a way around a huge punishment, and filling in the holes punishes the innocent alot more often. The 30 mins has to stay, or it gets even worse for the people staying in the run.Quote:
Originally Posted by starLivitation
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05-07-2016, 07:35 PMSettiesamaIt's mentioned numerous times throughout the Cnj quests too, infact teaching someone not to be afraid to use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinth
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05-07-2016, 07:37 PMReynhartLacking a member is always a hindrance, but there is a big difference between someone quiting and someone doing poorly. If your tank or your healer is not fulfilling your expectation, the it's your choice if you want to kick them. If, after that, you have to wait 10-15 minutes for a replacement, it's the party's fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorander
Often, you can still go faster with a basic tanking, than waiting 15 minutes to be able to kick them, then waiting for a replacement, and then ending with a proper to finish the dungeon quickly.
Remember that the main issue is the Duty Roulette, and that there is absolutely no Duty in there that requires a great amount of skill. As a tank, it's perfectly doable to survive pretty much anything without using a single cooldown, even if it's a blatant lack of skill. -
05-07-2016, 07:56 PMCaitlinzuluOff course healers are instructed on how to dps, how else would they be able to do fate's or farm mobs without help like any other class can do. This doesnt mean they are meant to dps in light/full party setups. Its up to the healer in question if he/she wants to dps or not. Just dont call it their job to dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinth
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05-07-2016, 08:22 PMSettiesamaHealers job is to keep the party alive. If they have time to lean, they have time to clean. Dps for faster kills keeps the party alive too, and the quoted info was about teaching them how to act in parties, so yes, they are expected to dps, not stand or jump around waiting to heal, or heal that 5% hp lossQuote:
Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu
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05-07-2016, 08:30 PMLaerune
I think healers like myself are used to the way the role used to work in other mmorpgs. In other mmorpgs:
1. Tank: Keeps threat and makes sure they can stay alive (defensive skills) as long as possible.
2. Damage Dealer: Do alot of damage and use offensive buffs.
3. Healer: Keep everyone alive and make sure the buffs and shields are on the players.
4. Every Role: Make sure your gear is up to the task, repaired, avoid stuff to help out the healer and let the tank pull, so the tank has full control of the fight.
The thing is in FFXIV this was how all the players that I ran dungeons with played the game. In 2.3/2.4 we outgeared all the level 50 dungeons, we were so OP, that people started experimenting. Players started to notice that AoE classes like Black Mage can nuke a whole group very fast. This encourages the tank to pull more monsters and since the HP of the tank was not going down fast, we started seeing Healers standing there with 80% MP during a fight. Maybe the Healers wanted to be usefull or the other partymembers encouraged the Healers to do damage, but something happend,
Speedruns became a popular thing and while SE did add gates to new dungeons so players would not speedrun as much as before, they still have fights where there is a dps race and a dps race requires either that:
1. Your dps players are great and are able to do it on their own.
2. They are not able to reach the cap needed and need the Tanks and Healers to pitch in and do damage aswell.
Maybe SE needs to tone down the damage needed during a fight or maybe the dps players need to improve themself. Only SE knows the answer to this. But in the end as a team member your 1# role is to help the group as much as possible, so when you are able to do some damage and you posses the skills to do them, why not help the group?
On-Topic:
I have said this before, making the lockout longer will only encourage leavers to abuse the system and fake a d/c or force the group to kick them out. Players can be very vindictive when they want to. A better punishment would be to make it so they keep getting the same trial/dungeon untill they finish it once. The leavers can leave, but the trial/dungeon will always be there for them, which will discourage leavers for quiting a dungeon, because they dislike it or if its to long. -
05-07-2016, 08:31 PMMilesSaintboroguh
Welp, that didn't take long for this turn into yet another "Healers need to DPS" tangent.
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05-07-2016, 09:11 PMSettiesama
If they were to lock dungeons so that you keep getting the same one, then they better remove Aetherochemical from 60 roulette, or it'll be deader than the horse this forum keeps beating
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05-07-2016, 10:13 PMNaesakiAshwell
I really don't get the hatred for Aetherochemical, its really not that bad, I've done it several times now and I've yet to find it taking longer than the other dungeons in the game and its not exactly a difficult dungeon either. The 1st boss is a tank and spank while dealing with the adds before they explode. 2nd boss might stump some if they don't turn around when petrify is happening or if you don't stack on the person who's been bound and targeted by that missile strike.
The final boss, sure it might knock back some players who aren't what others deem as "great" at the game, or new leafs doing it for the first time who generally just need a minute to be told the tactics which are so simple, dodge everything, destroy the blizzard sphere before the fire, get in the dark spheres before the big aoe hits and when the lines and orbs are on everyone, you take an orb for someone else.
So many go on about time efficiency, yet the dungeon can be just as fast as the others if people actually bother to put in the effort instead of quitting at the first hurdle >__>
The only reason why people quit that dungeon, Is that the inherent rewards from the dungeon itself is very mediocre, the bosses give very little esoteric's and there is no loot to be had, making it not as worthwhile as the other dungeons despite the fact its just as fast as the rest and the majority only want their daily tome reward anyway.