This could be the case, but I have a feeling enemy damage will scale to compensate for the boost to each tank's HP pool. So those lazy tanks could very well find themselves still tanking the floor if they don't properly mitigate and pay attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
Goodbye strength tanks. Let us never be forgotten.
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02-23-2016, 12:29 PMBourne_Endeavor
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02-23-2016, 12:31 PMEvergrey
I thought this was supposed to be a funeral, not a place to fight over what was better or not, because that doesn't matter anymore.
People who liked STR tanks should mourn this event while those who didn't should rejoice in silence and watch pro STR succumb to the new world order.
Things change, not much we can do about it now. -
02-23-2016, 12:32 PMOdettI really hope so too, with future content in mind. I doubt SE would change the damage formula for everything before, though. Going full vit for anything right now is already overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
It was supposed to be, until people started posting how bad STR tanks are somehow an accurate representation of all STR tanks. We had great times with STR tanking, so we'll fight back when misinformed people try to picket our funeral :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey
yup ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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02-23-2016, 12:33 PMBourne_EndeavorThing is, Warriors could easily compensate through their own self-healing. STR allowed them to heal staggeringly high amounts. There's a reason they are the only job (so far) that has solo'd Titan EX. Regardless, the difference in overall group DPS was significant when tanks wore full STR compared to VIT. No fight in the game required the wealth of HP. And frankly, good STR tanks could handle an inexperience healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyson
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02-23-2016, 12:35 PMbounddreamer
My name is Talya, and I will miss strength tanking, but my healers are already looking forward to my projected 30k HP in full Defiance after a hymn attribute reset and full fending.
I'm gonna miss you, 10k crit Fell Cleaves. RIP. -
02-23-2016, 12:35 PMBourne_EndeavorYeah. I doubt they go back and scale everything, though it would be nice. Even if they just adjust the sync scale, it wouldn't be too bad. Have to see how things go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
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02-23-2016, 12:42 PMAtoliIt matters because during the funeral, someone held a speech on how the deceased always sucked while still alive. Just because we have a new successor now doesn't mean we shouldn't defend the old one against trash talk >:3Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey
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02-23-2016, 12:45 PMOdettI must say that I greatly admire your reckless abandon and utter defiance towards game mechanics; a true warrior, if I say so myself. I shall join you with my MND Black Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoli
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02-23-2016, 12:52 PMAlahraI've healed in both metas, and it's not as though VIT tanks don't exist now, anyway, so most healers probably have experience with both. In Duty Finder, it's about half and half in my experience. Bad VIT tanks are easier to heal than bad STR tanks are (again, in my experience).Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
The reason for that generally is because bad tanks don't really manage their pulls well (in addition to not generally managing cooldowns well, and so on). This often results in mobs not being claimed and extra damage being taken during the pull (because of hesitation), meaning I need to heal immediately but can't do so safely until all the mobs are claimed. A bad VIT tank has an extra second or two of survival relative to a bad STR tank to claim the mobs and for my Cure II (or whatever else is appropriate, depending on the class, as I play all three) to land, allowing me to then keep the tank alive. Bad STR tanks frequently die in this initial, high pressure moment before my heal actually lands simply because they have less health.
Regarding DPS, it's also easier to DPS with a bad VIT tank than it is to do so with a bad STR tank. Cleric Stance has a 10-second cooldown, so you need to be sure that the tank is going to last that full 10 seconds without needing any heals from you before you use it. If you're doing the smart thing and topping off the tank before you pop into Cleric Stance, the VIT tank will give you more safe time in Cleric Stance than the STR tank will. Again, in my experience, it's not even worth attempting to DPS with a bad STR tank, but I can usually get in some extra Holy casts or an extra round of DoTs with a VIT tank, because their higher maximum health total makes it easier for me to ensure they'll live for that 10 second window.
As I said in my initial post, I loved good STR tanks—but they were few and far between on the Duty Finder, probably because they have normal running crews. And I have to admit, good tanks never made a significant difference in my runs (in terms of clear time—most of that impact there falls entirely on the actual DPS) whether they were STR or VIT. I've never once thought "Oh, this run was noticeably faster because the tank was DPSing to the fullest" or any variation thereof. What I do notice is a STR tank that isn't peanut brittle or, conversely, a VIT tank that holds aggro off of skilled DPS. Their damage has always been minor enough that it's only noticeable on those special abacus meters—my, average, day to day experience in the DF never improved because of the STR meta. In fact, it was frequently worse because of it.
And all that's just considering level 60 dungeons, where you can abuse item level to get around necessary HP minimums. Don't get me started on bad STR tanks going into synched content (most especially hard-hitting level 50 dungeons, like Sastasha HM, with those damnable Boatswains) and melting before they even finish some of the largest pulls.
And that's why I'm glad SE finally did something about this. I thought it was problematic when it started creeping into the mainstream after SCOB, and I downright hated it when it was flat out normal in HW. It makes the baseline experience in the Duty Finder downright frustrating for me, to the point where I stopped healing almost completely unless I was running with a tank I knew (and healer was my main for most of my ARR and my dedicated secondary after that).
While this is entirely true, it's not at all common in my experience. In the whole time I've been playing (since ARR Early Access), I've seen exactly two WARs take advantage of this on large pulls. One of them was in Syrcus Tower, before HW. I've only seen one WAR actually do it in HW dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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02-23-2016, 01:00 PMAtoliThank you! I'm a DRK so far, but with so much talk about warriors and defiance, I feel like I should become a 60 WAR as well <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
Btw, my BLM would still do great dmg even with MND accessories, so it's not like those few STR/VIT points will make that much difference. If I was a main tank or even just sometimes raiding as a tank, of course I'd adjust those too, but with the way it is, it's kind of a waste of tomes for me.
I have a minimum of 6 classes to gear before DRK °-°
I care about this change more on my main healer than on my tank, actually^^ -
02-23-2016, 01:04 PMVele
Honestly I think my biggest concern with the str to vit change is the amount of tanks I'll come across who haven't switched because they didn't read the patch notes. I've come across a fair number of players who say "I never read patch notes, I prefer discovering everything myself"... sometimes they are the same people who say "Hunh, there's an event going on? I didn't know that, where do you start?" which leads me to believe they never look at the main site.
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02-23-2016, 01:11 PMTheUltimateSeph
I'm gonna agree with everything Gyson said here and add my own two cents. Even if tank dps was the most awesome mitigation and cut run times in half (which it doesn't) I would still argue that it's bad because it's unbalanced as hell. I think SE thinks dps tanks are "bad" possibly for this reason too if they are nerfing the damage tanks will do overall. Tanks should be tanking. If they are encroaching on the realm of dps class damage output something is broken. This may allow for faster clears and make people happy but in the end something being broken is bad. I hope they nerf healers next somehow and get the trinity back to basics. If anything healers should be able to do their dps through buffs to the actual dps classes, same with tanks except maybe in the form of debuffs to the enemy.
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02-23-2016, 01:12 PMrjspencer4The amount of healers and dps who haven't read about it also warrants concern, I shudder to think how many tanks will be insulted or votekicked for following the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vele
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02-23-2016, 01:15 PMOdettIt would be harder to notice as a DRK or PLD if you're completely oblivious, but any self-respecting WAR will take 10 seconds to realize when they use Fell Cleave and IRL punch a hole through the nearest wall after they get over the shock of how little they hit for with full STR. Let's be honest here, if you're not keeping your eyes peeled for dat Fell Cleave crit, you're doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vele
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02-23-2016, 01:19 PMRagnorakThey arent nerfing Tank damage tho... Just moving it to VIT instead of STR... Also bad dps get out dps'd by a tank... Thats not the tanks fault/problem thats a dps player problem/faultQuote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
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02-23-2016, 01:21 PMNinsterI leveled my tanks full VIT to 60 and not once was anything said about it. Well, okay, and one STR ring once HW hit and this mess started.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjspencer4
And I don't even main a tank. -
02-23-2016, 01:23 PMVaerThey have a sort of messaging system they use for stuff like housing where it pops up a box that tells you some info about stuff they added (IIRC it popped up for personal housing and subdivision implementation if you zoned into a housing area after the patches) but it only shows up once. I doubt they will use that for this though but would be an easy way to communicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vele
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02-23-2016, 01:25 PMArrius
Good thing, the change.
Still, amazed they didn't dumped WAR with nerfs, given that their kit is still vastly OP compared to a DRK and PLD. -
02-23-2016, 01:33 PMOdettSo you're going to agree with the opinion of a player who is objectively wrong on what they're arguing due to misinformation? Tank DPS doesn't cut run times in half, let's not exaggerate here, but neither does it cut it by less than 5% like Gyson said. Tanks are in a very good spot right now, but the job is not inherently broken. I would call the job broken if ANYONE could touch a tank and be really good at it. It takes a very high skill ceiling to squeeze everything you can out of a tank, mitigate correctly, and have high DPS. If you try to do any of that while not knowing how to play your job, you will seriously crash and burn, and if you want proof of that, look at the very horrible STR tanks out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
That statement is very inaccurate and I will explain why. A good tank will encroach on the realm of a poor dps player, but you can't use a good player vs. bad player as your basis of comparison for obvious reasons. If you're going to mention what a good tank can do, then you should compare them to a DPS of equal skill level, which would be more accurate. A good tank will not DPS close to a good pure DPS job.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
I can somewhat understand where you're coming from with your "nerf" argument, and it is true that a good tank and a good healer can pull off soloing feats that a good DPS could never do, but I would argue that dumbing the system down is not the answer. I would not like this game to be "reduced back to basics" in order to bring down people who can squeeze the most out of their jobs to the level of people who only care about doing the bare minimum.
I'm glad. WAR is an extremely-well designed job and if anything, the devs should work on getting DRK (DRK not as much as it's already very very strong, PLD DEFINITELY) and PLD up to its level instead of bringing WAR down to the other 2 tanks' levels. Doing so would be the lazy way out from a development standpoint. I recall Yoshida stating that they were using WAR as their baseline for adjusting the other tanks, and I am very glad that's how they're approaching this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrius
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02-23-2016, 01:34 PMFeliAiko
Shouldn't be hard to inform those who didn't read the patch notes on the change. Just tell them to look at what it says for VIT on their Character Profile.
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02-23-2016, 01:34 PMEvergreyI've always played as a VIT tank, even when STR was the "in thing" (except 1 STR ring and all stat bonus on STR), never got kicked or insulted (no one even mentioned it) so doubt it will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjspencer4
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02-23-2016, 01:35 PMalimdia
The prev Str tanks that were actually good will still be way better after the change
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02-23-2016, 01:37 PMArriusBecause having a tank leave the duty often results in a some long wait time to get replacement coming in; and DPS who waited for 20+ minutes already will end up being more frustrated having to wait AGAIN - So they suck it up and let the tank be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey
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02-23-2016, 01:41 PMEvergreyProbably. That's my guess aswell. -hehe- I was just answering to a post that said "I shudder to think how many tanks will be insulted or votekicked for following the change.", and since it didn't happen when STR was the "in thing" I doubt it'll happen now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrius
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02-23-2016, 01:42 PMKhalithar
I was a vit tank for a while then I eventually decided to try the str build to see what everyone was harping on about for so long. After finally trying it, I was sold on the concept. With the str accessories I noticed a significantly higher amount of threat generation and quicker clear times on bosses, not only because my damage was higher but also because dps in my groups could go all out right away without fear of me losing the mobs. I've group with a few friends of mine as tank and as dps, I would notice them doing the same rotation and tearing away chunks of the mob's hp bar and pulling threat almost immediately, whereas with me they'd do the same amount of damage and the mob never even turned for a second.
After that I was totally sold on the concept of the str accessories, I still pulled the same amount of mobs and didn't really notice any difference in my survival rate, my healers in my groups still tend to spend most of their time in cleric stance dpsing without needing to heal me. But I actually proactively cycle and use my cooldowns, pull more or less mobs depending on the situation, etc. As a whole though, str tanking when done correctly was by far the better way to play in dungeons, for the folks complaining about HP, HP is not the sole defining feature of a good tank. My 16k hp str accessory equipped pld main never had any issues in dungeons as far as staying alive, you don't need 20k+ hp to get through the current dungeons, 15-16k hp is perfectly fine.
Fair enough it's all moot now, Vit all the way. My favorite dps class is drg anyway so at least I can use the str accessories for something! -
02-23-2016, 01:47 PMYISUG
http://i.imgur.com/SfFoozi.jpg
this,will never get fixed
(Good Game!) tanks who switch to to VIT when pulling a lot of mobs between bosses and switch to str in boss fights -
02-23-2016, 01:49 PMOdettQuote:
Originally Posted by YISUG
but muh Greased Lightning -
02-23-2016, 01:55 PMThoro39
Yeah, I think almost everyone agrees this STR to VIT for damage change is a good choice, the discussion that has ignited here is more of a last "Who was right" thing.
But TBH, healers will have to heal the same amount of HP no matter if tank has 20k or 40k HP, the amount of damage they take will be the same. The only difference between a full STR and full VIT Tank in pre-3.2 was that healers could delay their need to heal a few seconds longer. Emphasis on delay, the amount of Heals required still stay roughly the same.
So let's say in a hypothetical case where a tank gets 1k damage per second and a heal does 3k per second and the Tank and Healer does not(!) use any cooldowns at all- a full STR Tank with 23k HP would allow 20 secs of clerics, then 10 seconds of healing to fill his small HP pool up, followed then by20 seconds of cleric and another 10 seconds of healing. So in summarum, out of a 60 second time span, 40 seconds are spent in cleric , 20 in healing
- a full VIT Tank with 46k HP on the other hand would allow 40 secs of clerics, then 20(!) seconds of healing to fill that massive HP pool up. That's in summarum, out of a 60 second time span, still 40 seconds spent in cleric and 20 secs in healing.
You could say this is an unrealistic scenario because it doesnt take Cooldowns into account, but both STR and VIT tanks have access to those.
The only thing a STR tank requires is more active stancedancing from the healer, IF the healer dps-s at all, but the actual healing load is equal or less compared to a VIT tank.
For no-dps healers, VIT or STR shouldnt matter at all for most cases, this game has very potent heals and any scenario where the constant damage is so high that the damage taken per second outnumbers the possible heals per second, any tank, no matter VIT or STR, would die without any outside intervention.
The only valid complaint would be that a full STR tank might not allow the healer to get all of his 2-3 dots in before having to turn off clericstance and start healing, but this is the case where Tank cooldowns should come into place and prolong the time until a heal is needed. - a full STR Tank with 23k HP would allow 20 secs of clerics, then 10 seconds of healing to fill his small HP pool up, followed then by20 seconds of cleric and another 10 seconds of healing. So in summarum, out of a 60 second time span, 40 seconds are spent in cleric , 20 in healing
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02-23-2016, 02:02 PMTheUltimateSephI'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that the amount of damage tanks will be able to do after the change will be lower. Not sure if it was confirmed or not but either way it's not anymore accurate to say they aren't nerfing it either. And it wasn't just bad dps, Warrior dps was encroaching on the realm of good dps players. I believe somewhere I saw someone post that a warrior in void ark did like 1,100 dps. That is indeed encroaching on the realm of good dps. Hell that's surpassing decent average dps. If that's not broken idk what is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnorak
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02-23-2016, 02:10 PMEvergreyI believe I read that somewhere aswell. That the Tanks damage output will be lowered but not by much, and that going full VIT will still be better than going full STR. I also believe I read somewhere that VIT will have a cap, so that's something to think about when allocating VIT and Food etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
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02-23-2016, 02:11 PMOdettTake into account that for a WAR to do that, they must treat RI and Vengeance as offensive cooldowns, and use them as soon as they're up, in other words, when they're not tanking anything. A good WAR will very seldom stack their two strongest defensive cooldowns when tanking anything worth a damn. 1.1k DPS is nowhere near the realm of good DPS, and you got a lot of work to do on your Dragoon rotation if a WAR of equal item level is parsing numbers similar to yours. It's not "broken" at all that a player who spends time playing their best outperforms one who is slacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
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02-23-2016, 02:14 PMTheUltimateSephNever said that surpassed my own dps. Stop jumping to conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
Just out of curiosity what would you consider to be in the realm of good dps? Cause the opinions I've heard on the matter vary -
02-23-2016, 02:22 PMOdettRegardless, you're saying that above ilv 195 (which is what a WAR would have to be at in order to parse 1.1k in VA, most likely 200) 1.1k DPS makes you a "good DPS", which is again, false. 1.1k dps at that item level is more along the lines of "lower than average for your item level", which means you have work to do on your rotation (using "your" as a general term, not specifically targeting you). In such a case, someone putting more effort into their playstyle than you are has every right to perform better than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
As for your second question, good DPS would obviously be contingent on your item level, but assuming that the WAR was ilv 200 in your example, I'd say that a DRG should be doing 1.4k-1.5k DPS in order to be considered "good DPS". I'd call 1.3k-1.4k average. -
02-23-2016, 02:26 PMTheUltimateSephI actually said that was encroaching on the realm of good dps. Not equaling it. From what I have heard most dps in pug groups average around 1k-1.1k or lower. The best I have heard of was roughly 1.5k dps. Y̶o̶u̶ ̶i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶ ̶ ̶W̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶m̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶"̶g̶o̶o̶d̶"̶ ̶d̶p̶s̶?̶ Didn't see the edit, my bad. Maybe I am seriously misjudging something then because a difference of 200-300 dps between a good tank and an average dps seems like a pretty small gap to me. Even a difference of 300-400 dps between a good tank and a good dps of equal item level seems like a horribly small gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
Are we talking about average savage dps here or average pug dps? Because my brother (who is the major source of the numbers I gave, he parses) says he almost never sees a dps break 1.2k in Void Ark or Alexander Normal and that the lowest dps in the party are often down at 800 or so. I'm talking about average pug dps here just to be clear. Random DF peoples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
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02-23-2016, 02:30 PMOdett
editing things
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02-23-2016, 02:33 PMShikiseki
I'm just glad the STR vs VIT tank hate will be gone now. I'm also glad to be tanky again without sacrificing tank-"dps" (lel)
(was a str/vit hybrid, depending on which vit piece had parry) -
02-23-2016, 02:48 PMYasuhiroAnd I'm not going to miss Warriors feeling the need to announce what their fell cleave did or ask if anyone saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bounddreamer
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02-23-2016, 02:51 PMEvergrey
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02-23-2016, 02:57 PMTheUltimateSephI like number XII :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey
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02-23-2016, 03:05 PMAzor_Ahai_
Having all 3 tank classes leveled, I am pretty anxious to see how PLD was effected of them all. I love triple fell cleaving things as much as the next person but you can't beat on demand stuns, blind, and physical dmg mitigation.