Strength Tanks

So, any new info on the "changing tank damage calculations" thing yet?

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So, any new info on the "changing tank damage calculations" thing yet?

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Nope. *chinhands*

I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

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Without someone else to produce threat, provoke is worth exactly 1 point of threat. It does $highest_threat+1, so if it's zero to start with, you get 1 whole point. It's literally nothing and a single tick of regen will overpower it instantly. That's why people are telling you to stop doing that.
Fun fact about provoke: It counts as an attack on the bombs in Pharos HM, so you can pop them from a longer distance. Neat party trick, not very useful otherwise.

Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die, it just takes an extra attack. STR is critical for PLD for a number of reasons, but at the minimum consider that Clemency scales off AP, not VIT/HP. Hitting an 8k crit heal as a tank rules.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

Without someone else to produce threat, provoke is worth exactly 1 point of threat. It does $highest_threat+1, so if it's zero to start with, you get 1 whole point. It's literally nothing and a single tick of regen will overpower it instantly. That's why people are telling you to stop doing that.
Fun fact about provoke: It counts as an attack on the bombs in Pharos HM, so you can pop them from a longer distance. Neat party trick, not very useful otherwise.

Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die, it just takes an extra attack. STR is critical for PLD for a number of reasons, but at the minimum consider that Clemency scales off AP, not VIT/HP. Hitting an 8k crit heal as a tank rules.

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Though, I don't lose threat with it o.o because I continue to pull threat, and using it before shield lob or any other skill is even better. Never had issues with it lol

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I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength.

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I wouldn't call anyone bad for choosing to use vitality accessories. If you're pulling well, holding enmity, and mitigating well at the right times with cool downs, you're getting your principle job done. As long as you're getting that done, you're average at the very worst.

In all fairness however, the DPS increase between all str and all vit accessories is substantially more than 5% though. It's hard (and probably a bad idea) to compare different people, even if they're in the same iLV, but eyeballing some paladins in various setups tonight I'd guestimate you can reasonably pull in ~20% more DPS with strength accessories. In DF stuff, it's still not that exciting (+20% of bad is still bad). If you're ever doing something with a tight DPS check though, it becomes relevant.

As for pulling with voke it will generate one enmity rather than none (It doesn't "in general" put you on top, it always puts you equal to highest enmity +1). I don't think there's any great reason to not pull with provoke, apart from the (significant) fact that it means it will be down for the next several seconds in case you actually needed it for something later. If you're sure you won't need to use it, then whatever. It's not hurting anyone. It's not helping you either though, beyond the most superficially technical sense of the word. Pulling with provoke is a lot like casting cover on someone not being attacked. It doesn't hurt anyone, but why? And if you need it later, you'll be out of luck and someone will be hurt by your previous poor judgement.

I'd second what fenrir said about the bombs. It's also useful just in general, if you want to drag someone in from further away. That worker bee down by the three antlions in Mocianne's Arboretum I like to grab in with provoke when he patrols back towards me, rather than make everyone go on a really long run, for example.

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Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die

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I disagree. I've found several DF healers who are pseudonapping, rather than straight up, and extra vitality has kept me alive more than once (even though I shouldn't have needed it). Staying alive once on a 4 person DF fight can reasonably save me from having to redo the fight, and by saving me from having to redo the fight (and from having to run back to it!) i'm saving a lot more time than i would have clipped from the run by just slotting str stuff on my pld. I know very little about dark knights, but apparently strength is much more useful to multiple warrior abilities than to mine, so other people's mileage may vary, etc. In the same vein though, while some abilities benefit a lot from Str it's worth not forgetting that others get boosts from vitality. You can recover more HP from various healer cooldowns, get a better stoneskin, give a better divine veil. None of those are amazing perks by any means, but they do exist.

Str Pld or Vit Pld!?! doesn't have to be a black and white issue though. There are certainly several cases where strength is much better (including the aforementioned duty finders, if you know you're going in with half decent people). If you're trying new content though, trying content with super-hard tank hits, or simply don't know what kind of people you'll be stuck with, I think you can make a very compelling argument for using vitality. IMO saying that either str or vit is /always/ better is doing people a disservice, and it's just not true.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

Though, I don't lose threat with it o.o because I continue to pull threat, and using it before shield lob or any other skill is even better. Never had issues with it lol

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As long as you're having no issues with it then you can feel free to continue to do it, obviously. However, something to consider is that if there's ever a situation wherein you need Provoke within the first 90s of the fight or that Provoke would actually prove some use, then you can't use it because you've already wasted it. With the way you're currently using Provoke it basically does absolutely nothing - which inherently isn't bad, but depending on the situation it can be. You can keep pulling with Provoke if you truly wish to, but at least recognize that it's not actually doing anything.

Also, pulling with Provoke isn't always necessary bad. If you're trying to pick out a particular mob that's far away (succubi in AK, bees in Neverreap) then Provoke is a fantastic tool. It's just bosses where it doesn't really do anything.

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I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

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Largely depends on what content you're doing. If it's just DF stuff then sure, go VIT, doesn't really matter - VIT PLD is better for trash pulls anyway since PLD really won't contribute any damage when it's just spamming Flash and applying Goring Blade randomly. If it's raid content then you're a part of a group and if being a STR tank helps your group meet certain DPS checks and you aren't compromising your survivability (ie you're popping CDs appropriately and not taking unnecessary damage) then you should go STR. It's not all or none, though, a lot of tanks (especially those who can't afford crafted accessories and are low on gear) will use 3 STR + 2 VIT acessories. Depending on left side pieces, this can put them at a high enough HP value while also increasing their DPS.

But yeah, if it's not raid content then it doesn't really matter. Helps in Thordan EX a bit as well if your group is low on DPS since reaching the last phase can make things incredibly stressful.

There come to the point where tanks are slotting in STR to help in the dps checks and healers are melding accuracy to be able to pass DPS checks of certain raids as well.

Personally, I used to go full VIT. Slowly, I switched to STR. Now I'm practically all STR with only my points I get from leveling in VIT still. The only difference I've noticed is that things die faster during AoE pulls and DPS focusing on targets that are not my main no longer get ripped off as fast. Whether or not I live or die still pretty much just depends on the healer as long as I'm using my cool downs correctly.

During raid content, having extra HP is nice to take those big hits, but if you're using cool downs correctly you're fine as long as you have the minimum required. It's more important to be able to kill that run away slime in A3S as a tank than to have enough HP so you can stand around and watch everyone die before you. Just a thought.

tl;dr: Cool downs cool downs, cool downs. Use cool downs. Hallowed Ground, cool downs.

Strength is far more significant then 5%.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

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You spec full Vit and pull with voke? Do you just never run 8 man content? I guarantee I'd end up ripping hate and being MT (since you couldn't voke back) as OT before I even realized what happened.

1) Str or Vita don't make a bad tank, cause str or vita tank should keep aggro and be healable, off course not be able to keep aggro/ get too hard to heal, is what we can call a bad tank,
Str tank have to be more exeperienced with the CD than a vita tank, because if the Str tank is too hard to heal, it's a also a bad tank, at this rate he should go for vita and get more exp with the CD before wear str accesories. Str tank don't have to say to a vita tank he is bad, because there good str tank caring about be tanky with a very strong use of the tank utility and bad str tank only carryng about dps but a hell to heal, this bad str tank should go back to vita and get learn to care on being tanky before wear str accesories.

2) Str accesories is not only 5% of strengh

3) Provoke give you the aggro of the previous better aggro player on the fight +1, so pull with provoke give you 1 of aggro. it not a skill for pull. it's a skill to get aggro back from a other player.
You should use Blood bath/fight on flight/ shield lob/ scorn/ the rage of the halone combo to open as MT, it's a good opener and you don't kill too much of usefull CD to open the fight.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

Though, I don't lose threat with it o.o because I continue to pull threat, and using it before shield lob or any other skill is even better. Never had issues with it lol

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Yes, you didnt lose threat because of your OTHER ABILITIES. The Provoke on the pull does basically nothing. It's not "negative", but basically it has zero impact compared to just opening with Shield Lob. You could do a freaking Manderville dance before you pulled and then "never have issues" too, and the Manderville dance would have been about as useful as pulling with provoke.

Opening with Provoke is bad because you -might- need to use it within the first 40 seconds of a pull of something goes wrong. Of course, in most cases you likely wont, but it's just bad practise to use it needlessly when it doesnt do anything worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset.

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Full Strength build (5 Slaying Accessories) will generally put out about 25% more damage/threat than a full Vitality build (5 Fending). Most tanks mix and match so might have 2 of one and 3 of another, at least on content they're not super confidant with. Noone is saying vitality is useless, but strength has a huge effect on your performance, so it's always best to only use as much vitality gear as you -need- (generally enough to survive the biggest single tank-busting hit an encounter has, with a little leeway).

"Gesture threateningly, placing yourself at the top of a target's enmity list."

All it does is put you on top, it does not "generate increased enmity" as other abilities do. If you use this on pull, all it does is give you +1, because there is nobody at the top of the enmity list, nobody is even on the enmity list whatsoever because its on-pull. Hence why doing an initial pull with voke is useless. Says it right there in the tooltip.

I'm a VIT tank 98% of my time when I'm on PLD. While I do mechanics properly, and become less of a heal issues, I'm a bad tank let them say it because I don't MT in STR accessories. I know it's common to wear STR, but what people forget is, that this style was brought on by the developers because they said DPS, Tanks, and Healers need to maximize their dps to clear Alexander Savage.

The problem is, this mentality is brought over to every other content in the game now. I mean, some tanks did it in Coil, but wasn't necessary. Funny how if Ramuh don't die fast enough due to low dps, the tanks are blamed for NOT wearing STR accessories (I witnessed it happening a lot). This makes the DPS players happy because there is a small burden on them now.

At the same time, most PF groups (DF as well) wonder why it is taking them so long to get a tank. Basically, outside of Alexander Savage, I should not be pointed at if the mob(s) die slow when I'm on my PLD.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

At the same time, most PF groups (DF as well) wonder why it is taking them so long to get a tank. Basically, outside of Alexander Savage, I should not be pointed at if the mob(s) die slow when I'm on my PLD.

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PF groups have trouble getting tanks because their demands are usually unrealistic. Anybody with multiple clears or experience to the final phase of whatever fight the PF is for most likely already has a static.

Anyway, stacking VIT when it doesn't directly benefit your damage is just making your life harder, because all your DPS are stacking their main damage stat and won't hesitate to pop hot deeps on you. You can suffer through lower enmity generation on a VIT stacked PLD, but why would you when you could be enjoying a greater threat buffer from higher damage output and the option of dropping ShO?

STR is best stat not only cause of dps but also for the key role of the tank in general to hold hate.

Many tanks fail to understand more STR = more effective flash enmity too and the only tank that needs to flash really is pld for obvious reasons.

Additionally cause plds str modifier lacks the same enmity potential as DRK or WAR they should gear more STR than VIT gears after all you have a shield and block beats parry unless wars in tank stance...

That's right STR = more dps+ more aggro + more selfheal. you should heal more by using blood bath and clemency.
if you wish to use STR accesories it just mean you will have less vita offcourse.
what a pld can do to take less damage as possible, if you are not already doing it, you make shieldtron just before every cleave as possible in a fight.
sit less on CD, you must know when you can throwing CD to be more easy to heal, or when you need to keep absolutely for tank busters.
This is how it work.
This is logic, many tank do it for savage but also for everything. Because the str tank need to have some training to get better with CD rotations and be as tanky as possible with str accesories. But it's absolutely not needed and not a requierment.
And Tank is not bad because them is wearing Vita or Str, it's requiered on Savage that's all

All supposable PLD tanks need to read my troll thread against vit tanks. Yep troll thread cause the PLD's I am targeting do mass pulls but fail to tank do their job. War and Drk don't have this issue.

I am sick of PLD's saying don't aoe on a mass pull they do. like how else should you deal with a pull 20+ single target like the pld wants? Then pull one small group at a time....

No other tanks seem to have problems holding hate like the PLD does and yet plds and all other tanks refuse to speak up as it secures the Drk mt War ot position the two tank slots need in a 8 person group.

What's mana? And "Taunt?" I don't get it...

fight on flight/bloodbath/scorn/flash/flash/flash/flash it's not so hard, but that's where how strengh can help a pld failling to hold aggro.
because PLD don't have the same aggro than war and dark. i don't think stacking vita is an issue for a PLD if them is very good. but if there an issue, wear 1 ou 2 str accesories would maybe help.
We can't hide the fact when we come to the aggro of the pld
Overpower>flash
Rage of the Halone>the combo aggro of the two other tanks.
The rage of the halone is 260 potency.
But by what you tell, it sound like a pld who don't use flash enough to me

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

All supposable PLD tanks need to read my troll thread against vit tanks. Yep troll thread cause the PLD's I am targeting do mass pulls but fail to tank do their job. War and Drk don't have this issue.

I am sick of PLD's saying don't aoe on a mass pull they do. like how else should you deal with a pull 20+ single target like the pld wants? Then pull one small group at a time....

No other tanks seem to have problems holding hate like the PLD does and yet plds and all other tanks refuse to speak up as it secures the Drk mt War ot position the two tank slots need in a 8 person group.

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You've had PLDs say NOT to aoe? And I thought I've had it bad in df. Good grief Charlie Brown.

...and good grief at this thread.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You've had PLDs say NOT to aoe? And I thought I've had it bad in df. Good grief Charlie Brown.

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Remember those tanks in low level stuff who wouldn't AOE and the healer would pull off them the second they healed?

Think they might've finally made it to end game.

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Originally Posted by Melian

SNIP

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I agree. Every time I tank in either Sword Oath or with STR rings. I come close to death. Heals start complaining that I'm in the wrong stance. In a static I think going alL STR is good, but in PF, or similar. Safe if better....

lol at the plds who fail to flash multiple times as they think threat don't scale that appears in all of my tank threads.

the other tanks agree it don't scale with str too cause the other tanks don't need flash.

and any idiot who doesn't have a 60 pld cannot speak for the fact they pull the least enmity out of the 3 tanks so any tank that goes vit gear I like to avoid,
why ? cause I'm a dps who likes to maximize my dps and the tank always a pld fails to control mobs like the tank class is suppose to.

part at fault is the eng community but if I don't see the pld flash 2x after first scorn they need to git gud if they pull the common 6+ packs. enmity wise the DRK and WAR never lose hate cause they are the better made tanks to replace the silly pld. as pld gear vit risk failing to tank and blame a dps or healer for stealing what your meant to be controlling as you are meant to be a tank.

one mob close to dead doesn't matter if you lose it but when you lose 4+ mobs in a big pull to one person is an issue to a tank that tanks need to look at maintaining agro.

fun fact a mnk starts fighting at around 33% less dps btw till they get 3 stacks or greased lightning that is approximately 17-20 seconds unless opens with perfect balance then its like only 3 secs but a good mnk never opens with that for obvious reasons and a MNK has no threat dumping skills let alone cross class dumping skills. so when a mnk reaches orange enmity of the 5 mobs on list your meant to throttle but if you have to drop gl3 to allow the tank to hold hate that's just stupid. as eng people kick low dps and afkers for failing to dps and mnk is one of main punished classes and don't even mention DRGS BOTD why cause that's not the same dps loss a monk loses when dropping out of gl3.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

I agree. Every time I tank in either Sword Oath or with STR rings. I come close to death. Heals start complaining that I'm in the wrong stance. In a static I think going alL STR is good, but in PF, or similar. Safe if better....

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Coming close to death in STR accessories or out of tank stance means one (or both) of the following:
You're not using CDs properly.
The healer is expecting to afk through the content and let the faery do all the healing while they watch anime.

Also, Valkyrie, any PLD that doesn't Flash multiple times on a pull isn't going to use Unleash, Overpower, Dark Passenger, or Steel Cyclone, either. It's almost as if bad players have nothing to do with the job they choose.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie Amber

All supposable PLD tanks need to read my troll thread against vit tanks. Yep troll thread cause the PLD's I am targeting do mass pulls but fail to tank do their job.

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I appreciate you admitting this a lot, actually.

You're right, paladin does have much less of an aoe enmity "buffer" than other tanks. If the tank is simply being bad (and I'm quite willing to believe you've had several of those in DF), then yeah, they might not keep hate. And that's terrible. Fair enough. I think the majority of players like that aren't going to be looking at forums about their jobs much though, so I expect whatever message you had isn't going to get across very well to whoever needs it. ... although at least one person learned how flash works in that thread, so I guess it wasn't a total loss.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

The healer is expecting to afk through the content and let the faery do all the healing while they watch anime.

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This happens though. For real. Just like (apparently) there are paladins that don't want people to aoe after pulls.... Don't ask me why there are people like this, but it's a thing.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

and any idiot who doesn't have a 60 pld cannot speak for the fact they pull the least enmity out of the 3 tanks so any tank that goes vit gear I like to avoid,
why ? cause I'm a dps who likes to maximize my dps and the tank always a pld fails to control mobs like the tank class is suppose to.

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I'm pure VIT. I usually have no issues.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

one mob close to dead doesn't matter if you lose it but when you lose 4+ mobs in a big pull to one person is an issue to a tank that tanks need to look at maintaining agro.

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One day, a BLM apparently popped Raging Stikes and charged whatever ability he was charging. I didn't notice until AFTER my Shield Lob. Plan was to Lob, run to next group, then do what I do for control. Sadly, whatever the BLM did after my Shield Lob caused the other two mobs to run at him after I had already ran forward to snatch the others. That said, it is NOT always the tank fault even if he is or isn't in STR gear.

On a separate note, I saw a group for Thordan Ex who needed one more tank. He had GLD and PLD locked out. His PF iLv was for 195. I asked if my iLv201 PLD can join, and he said, "plds suck git gud bro". I still have it screen captured. They never filled after re-uping the PF three more times due to PF timer.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

You spec full Vit and pull with voke? Do you just never run 8 man content? I guarantee I'd end up ripping hate and being MT (since you couldn't voke back) as OT before I even realized what happened.

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Voke has 25y good pull, but do you really think you can out threat me after Scorn/Shield lob/ Spirits then finish off my Halone? I do get 2 off set CDS that don't connect with my Halone combo CD, I also do have Flash... Seriously. LEARN YOUR THREAT GENERATION!. -___- Then theres my Def Abilities that generate more Threat point actions... unless you don't know that any ability generates a threat point?....

P.S. Make it happen, don't just say it. Talk is cheap.

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

Voke has 25y good pull, but do you really think you can out threat me after Scorn/Shield lob/ Spirits then finish off my Halone? I do get 2 off set CDS that don't connect with my Halone combo CD, I also do have Flash... Seriously. LEARN YOUR THREAT GENERATION!. -___- Then theres my Def Abilities that generate more Threat point actions... unless you don't know that any ability generates a threat point?....

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It's more that if you need provoke immediately after (read: Berserk WAR spamming Butcher's for hot deeps), you're going to be very sad because you can't. Provoke is for tank swaps and recovering from a burst DPS peeling away from you, not for pulling.

provoke is not a enmity skill, it's a skill to recover aggro from someone else, pull with provoke is useless and will not provide more enemity

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

Voke has 25y good pull, but do you really think you can out threat me after Scorn/Shield lob/ Spirits then finish off my Halone? I do get 2 off set CDS that don't connect with my Halone combo CD, I also do have Flash... Seriously. LEARN YOUR THREAT GENERATION!. -___- Then theres my Def Abilities that generate more Threat point actions... unless you don't know that any ability generates a threat point?....

P.S. Make it happen, don't just say it. Talk is cheap.

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Actually genius, I'm positive my War would rip hate off of you within the first 30 seconds of a full party duty. Obviously you don't know anything about running full party duties or you'd know that a War OT's optimal rotation involves using our threat gen combo liberally. I rip hate off of pallys that aren't complete garbage routinely. You wasting provoke means I'd have to drop like 3 full GCDs (probably more) for you to get hate back. If you had provoke off cooldown I'd only waste one. Since I'm not going to waste time stroking your ego though I would just MT at that point.

My only problem with Strength tanks is that most of you who I run into with DF don't know how to pop a bloody cooldown. We could burn through enemies a lot faster if I or another healer could be allowed to actually DPS while healing, but as long as you don't pop cooldowns, that ain't going to happen and is only going to stress us out because we have less margin for error. If you're going to go full strength, know an actual cooldown rotation, otherwise you're just making the run take longer than it needs to and causing the healers undue grief.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

My only problem with Strength tanks is that most of you who I run into with DF don't know how to pop a bloody cooldown. We could burn through enemies a lot faster if I or another healer could be allowed to actually DPS while healing, but as long as you don't pop cooldowns, that ain't going to happen and is only going to stress us out because we have less margin for error. If you're going to go full strength, know an actual cooldown rotation, otherwise you're just making the run take longer than it needs to and causing the healers undue grief.

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How much more margin of error does a vit tank who doesn't pop cooldowns provide you? I feel that In both cases, the failure to tank effectively has less to do with stats and more to do with playstyle.

Whether its VIT type or a STR type, if a tank player isn't making an effort to pop cooldowns effectively then they need to reset and put all their points into INT.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

How much more margin of error does a vit tank who doesn't pop cooldowns provide you? I feel that In both cases, the failure to tank effectively has less to do with stats and more to do with playstyle.

Whether its VIT type or a STR type, if a tank player isn't making an effort to pop cooldowns effectively then they need to reset and put all their points into INT.

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The difference is generally one GCD. It's usually enough to get a fully dotted bane out rather than having to abort early.

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Originally Posted by Pells

The difference is generally one GCD. It's usually enough to get a fully dotted bane out rather than having to abort early.

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Soooooooo when tanks who were all vit but had 15k hp first got into Alex you couldn't keep them alive? ? Worst healers ever

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Originally Posted by Enesuia

I also do have Flash... Seriously. LEARN YOUR THREAT GENERATION!

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Lol for days on this xD

Ene you don't stand a chance against any tank wearing str. It's just a numbers game. If you can produce enough threat to keep a dps or healer from peeling off, that's fine, it's all you need really. But threat works off multipliers from damage, so if your RoH does 1000 damage and my war BB does 3000 damage, it's just a numbers game you can't possibly catch up.

Voke can be used for longer pulls, sure, but that's not what it's for. It's a threat copy, you use it for tank swaps or when a healer or dps rips off you. Generally you can "get away" with using it if you are fast enough to shield lob or do something after you use it, but you can't just use it and expect it to hold hate for any amount of time. It won't, that's not what it's for. And as Spooky pointed out, if you use it on a pull then you won't have it for 40 some odd seconds in case you do need again.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Whether its VIT type or a STR type, if a tank player isn't making an effort to pop cooldowns effectively then they need to reset and put all their points into INT.

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This wins the thread.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

But if I don't stack strength as a DRK those healers are gonna have a rough time when I pop Living Dead and need all my HP healed. And more STR means stronger Souleater heals. And less general health means I can heal those sissy attacks and the healer can do other stuffs.

Stack VIT if you want to die later.

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I wholeheartedly agree with you. I have stacked my Dark Knight's Attribute Points into Strength and usually my armor comes with VIT and Strength. I also like when it comes with Determination because it means Soul Eater performs better. I think the OP is a bit of a pleb when it comes to Tanking in all honesty. Your Dark Knight is not your average Tank sunshine !

OMG, basically Vitality tanking was viable before 3.0, and it's easy to see why when playing the content prior to 3.0. There was little to no stress to maximize DPS and threat is easily maintained as long as the DPS or HLR didn't overly surpass your item level or totally tard-out, the player made sure to mark their targets, and follow the formula that everyone will have to explain at some point. Some of the old content still hits harder and faster than anything in the Heavensward story-mode dungeons, like, the Aurum Vale which still has an effect of making people shudder, and how there is like never a point in the Stone Vigil where you're not healing 80-90% of the time, IMO. And, it's not like it is required outside of the expert raids anyway.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

OMG, basically Vitality tanking was viable before 3.0

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It still kinda is. But it makes me wonder how the devs tested alex savage originally. Did their tanks wear 190 alex nm fending accessories? 150 crafted accessories melded with str? A mix of vit and str alex 190 accessories? Did they have the whm/ast solo heal with a sch dps'ing? Just makes me curious.