"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

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The thing is even if I just leave they're still wasting my time because of the time I spent in dungeon with them and my leaver penalty. Plus no one is claiming they have to be perfect, they're saying it would be nice if they were at least mediocre.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I wouldn't even trust them on AST, they might find it completely pointless to use cards, as well!

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ya, lol.

"these cards are just much too complicated to deal with; my only job is to make sure no one dies right? Im completely blameless.."

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=

With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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If you know about all of those things and you just refuse to use them then yes you are exactly the type of player this thread is about. Look, I don't normally bring up low DPS with people in DF unless it's actually keeping us from clearing the run. I don't expect everyone to be perfect, but I do expect people to at least freakin try. I get it, some people are new and getting used to skills, other people are undergeared because they're fresh to 60. Flat-out ignoring your skills is just lazy. If I was healing/tanking and the other DPS is either new or similarly bad and that combined with your inept play is keeping us from clearing content, I'd probably either vote kick one of you or leave myself depending on my frustration level. If I was the other DPS, I'd just vote kick because carrying you would give me a backache. You don't kick ass. You watch the other DPS kick it while you sit on your hands in a corner. :/

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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This must be sarcasm. If it's not, please stop playing dps.

I don't expect people to be perfect. I don't expect everyone to take their gaming as seriously as I take it. But when you're not even trying to do well, you're just wasting my time and the time of the rest of the party. It's disrespectful to everyone else who then has to make up for your lack of effort.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

This must be sarcasm. If it's not, please stop playing dps.

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I loved how they posted this thinking they're a real bad***, only to get instantly laughed at.

Fail troll or someone just willfully bad?

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Originally Posted by raela

I uh, want people to try in expert roulette as well. Would much prefer 15-20 minute runs to 30+ minute ones.

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"Ahh! 5 more minutes and I can throw a justified proper fit at the BLM and his ilk!...What! He used the limit break! The NERVE! Those are seconds we'll NEVER get back!"

If we can just control and order around our human players without fail, then we can have a proper mmorpg experience....

Perhaps one day we can require our new players to know alex savage before installing the game. Until then, we'll have to settle for...diversity. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Kallera

"Ahh! 5 more minutes and I can throw a justified proper fit at the BLM and his ilk!...What! He used the limit break! The NERVE! Those are seconds we'll NEVER get back!"

If we can just control and order around our human players without fail, then we can have a proper mmorpg experience....

Perhaps one day we can require our new players to know alex savage before installing the game. Until then, we'll have to settle for...diversity. /sarcasm

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What is wrong with you, you literally take everything to the extreme like the entire world is out to kill each other. The guy said he would prefer shaving 10/15 minutes off a run and you react like he just said all players who can't pull 1500 DPS should be banned and have their offspring sacrificed to our lord and saviour cthulu.

You offer absolutely nothing to discussions because instead of contributing to the debate you just run straight to the extreme and scream that it will be the end of us all. If you have so little faith in the community/humanity why do you even bother playing a game that forces you to play with others.

Quit being a little drama queen and have a rational discussion and raise your concerns without acting like we're asking for all players to be MLG pro's.

It's clear that those who "play bad" are really only providing a service to the FFXIV community by giving folks the opportunity to come on the forums and complain over, and over, and over about players that aren't as good as their own godly capabilities.

Chill pills for everyone!

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Originally Posted by Kallera

"Ahh! 5 more minutes and I can throw a justified proper fit at the BLM and his ilk!...What! He used the limit break! The NERVE! Those are seconds we'll NEVER get back!"

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What? Who cares on who uses the LB (if the melee DPS wasn't going to use it, then what's wrong with a Caster or Ranger using it?). It's when a BLM is just spamming Blizzard (or worse, Scathe or Blizzard II) is when it's a problem. I'm sure you'd be just as annoyed with a healer or tank if they were, say, only spamming Cure (never using Freecure or any of the new abilities they learn on their way to 60) or focusing on only one monster, letting the rest of the mobs gang up on the healer (or mouth off at DPS for doing AoE's... in level 60 content).

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If we can just control and order around our human players without fail, then we can have a proper mmorpg experience....

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If it meant we could stop them from hindering the party with their Blizzard, Straight Shot, Ruin, Bootshine, Heavy Thrust, etc (or running into walls or getting locked out of fights because Netflix distractions) spam, sure.

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Perhaps one day we can require our new players to know alex savage before installing the game. Until then, we'll have to settle for...diversity. /sarcasm

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And that's where you blew things completely out of proportion. New players are not bad, especially if they learn what their shiny new abilities can do as they level up (when I was new, I was always excited to see what X ability did when I got it). Bad players are players who choose to be bad in one way or another. One example just spamming one attack for the entire dungeon, another example expecting 3-7 players to do the content for them (noticeable in farming parties).

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

It's clear that those who "play bad" are really only providing a service to the FFXIV community by giving folks the opportunity to come on the forums and complain over, and over, and over about players that aren't as good as their own godly capabilities.

Chill pills for everyone!

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Why don't you go actually read what people are saying rather than making a lazy attempt to be witty?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Why don't you go actually read what people are saying rather than making a lazy attempt to be witty?

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I have read most of this thread. The thing is, if you don't like the way people play and they're not open to advice, then you can: Stick it out and finish the dungeon; leave and try again with another random group in 30 minutes. Unfortunately, a third option seems to be: Come on the forum and make yet another post about "bad players".

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

I have read most of this thread. The thing is, if you don't like the way people play and they're not open to advice, then you can: Stick it out and finish the dungeon; leave and try again with another random group in 30 minutes. Unfortunately, a third option seems to be: Come on the forum and make yet another post about "bad players".

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You forget the most rational option: Kick the player.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Snip.

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I think you missed the point if you were taking any of that post as an actual encounter. The whole spark of this thread is that people do not care anymore about the difference and want said players to leave. Have i seen this thread before? Yes. Have i seen it used to excuse jerk behavior before? Yes. I may have even seen this myself during my time with the game. But options to have the commity police itself on skilled party play throughout the game are not going to be attractive or facilitate new players. All people can do is offer the help when and if they can. And if they don't play to your standards? Don't return the favor, that's not something to be proud of.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

You forget the most rational option: Kick the player.

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"Kicking you is part of my playstyle" *sunglasses on*

I wonder if the people justifying the not caring attitudes are doing so because they're guilty of not caring.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I wonder if the people justifying the not caring attitudes are doing so because they're guilty of not caring.

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Been accused, but not guilty.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I wonder if the people justifying the not caring attitudes are doing so because they're guilty of not caring.

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Well people like AsahinaMyLove clearly are guilty of not caring.
Many others probably are as well.
Some are probably not, and are just fearmongering because they think the community will also jump on players who are mediocre, and not just totally terrible.

Ask the community to be competent at the class they choose to play and learn the basics and people lose their minds.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Perhaps one day we can require our new players to know alex savage before installing the game. Until then, we'll have to settle for...diversity. /sarcasm

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I have never stepped into Alex savage (no static, but will start looking for one soon) and I am hardly close to what would be considered hardcore. Had an ex roulette the other day with a bard will full eso gear.. He barely lost any tp and was below my fairy healing aggro. Another run, a DRG in eso/Alex savage that did less than my i160 drg.. No dots or ogcds used, he just did full thrust combos. I don't like the attitude of "well this is easy and not worth my time so I don't even need to attempt my basic rotation."

On weekdays, I have limited time to play with my friend in the evening. Slow runs will put me to sleep, then that's the end of my gaming for the night.. So yeah, if it's a case of someone who should know better that just doesn't want to bother, I get annoyed.

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Originally Posted by raela

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On weekdays, I have limited time to play with my friend in the evening. Slow runs will put me to sleep, then that's the end of my gaming for the night.. So yeah, if it's a case of someone who should know better that just doesn't want to bother, I get annoyed.

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Is that a literal quote from the player or was it an assumption? I don't and can't discuss every example from the df, no one can.

But the "Gitgud" thing just isn't something I endorse, even if my own curcumstances were different.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Is that a literal quote from the player or was it an assumption? I don't and can't discuss every example from the df, no one can.

But the "Gitgud" thing just isn't something I endorse, even if my own curcumstances were different.

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I've had my fair share of people who refuse to pull their own weight for whatever reason (or otherwise intentionally fail at their job), but I've also seen a fair amount of people that go "well I don't want to put too much effort, they're dying and it's easy".

To rebute that; it's supposed to be a game. Nothing in this should be that mentally taxing (excluding A3S savage, but this was expert roulette and everyone was at least law+ gear) that you can't be bothered to incorporate it into your playstyle. It doesn't even just apply to games (but it's certainly the lowest common denominator imo if you can't even be bothered to put effort into that) but life in general; you don't want Jimmy slacking off and his co-workers doing all the work, if not more to compensate.

A pletoria of people exist, including the ones mentioned in the last few posts (and those especially special ones that queue as a group for CT just to mess with the other two alliances). Whether or not you want to put up with it (and if you can do anything about it outside of GM influence) is another thing. In regards to these people, it's not even a matter of "git gud", it's a "stop sandbagging" because for all intents and purposes, they can play better but willingly choose not to (versus the common context of "git gud" is literally to "get over it", especially if it's in context of job changes).

Just stop taking what we say to the extreme end and hopefully you can see the perspective on this. We're not even iffed at people playing that aren't playing "to our standards" (unless again, you want to take that to the logical extreme where our standards is "giving a shite about the dungeon",) but having the courtsey of doing whats expected of their job and following the fundamentals.

And just to repeat what I've said before.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think you missed the point if you were taking any of that post as an actual encounter. The whole spark of this thread is that people do not care anymore about the difference and want said players to leave. Have i seen this thread before? Yes. Have i seen it used to excuse jerk behavior before? Yes. I may have even seen this myself during my time with the game. But options to have the commity police itself on skilled party play throughout the game are not going to be attractive or facilitate new players. All people can do is offer the help when and if they can. And if they don't play to your standards? Don't return the favor, that's not something to be proud of.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

To be honest, your post is in a completely different context of the topic/discussion. The general census is that "you should not be playing deliberately bad" and your post is "you shouldn't expect the absolute best out of people". You're throwing a wet vegetable into a hot fryer rather than a pot of boiling water.

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It's not about subperforming because they aren't good at the job, it's those who can do better but willing choose not to out of spite or laziness (in a game setting). This means people who do DK>TS>SP combos as a MNK (and drop greased lightning somehow) and still do less than the tank on average, not AoE on trash (both of these in perspective of the latter), or ice mages (in the case of the former)

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Is that a literal quote from the player or was it an assumption? I don't and can't discuss every example from the df, no one can.

But the "Gitgud" thing just isn't something I endorse, even if my own curcumstances were different.

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I don't like confrontation, so I never ask why they just aren't bothering. I don't generally notice tp bars, but my friend does (and he also will look for their dots). But what reason could there be for a DRG that was clearly competent enough to raid savage to not even bother using jump? I'm assuming based on responses other people have gotten in similar situations.

I wouldn't even call it "git gud." Even the basic ARR rotations would do more.. I mean, just move past their level 26 skills. :(

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I've had my fair share of people who refuse to pull their own weight for whatever reason (or otherwise intentionally fail at their job), but I've also seen a fair amount of people that go "well I don't want to put too much effort, they're dying and it's easy".

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I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

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Not everything is black and white when it comes to a reasoning to why they aren't doing well. But in that context, they're willingly going into a dungeon knowing that can't perform well without a mouse (to the point that the party is dying), let alone still try to do other tasks like dps.

Basically, I'm sorry. I still don't agree with the op, but thats a different subject from this thread.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

I have read most of this thread. The thing is, if you don't like the way people play and they're not open to advice, then you can: Stick it out and finish the dungeon; leave and try again with another random group in 30 minutes. Unfortunately, a third option seems to be: Come on the forum and make yet another post about "bad players".

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Nah, that's part of option 2. Usually done during your 30 minute lockout.

Option 3 is me exercising my right to vote kick them.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Obvious troll is obvious

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Thank you. At least someone saw through this post.

Also, a huge thank you to the community for the gigantic amounts of salt in this thread; it's enough for me to aid my city in the coming winter.
Again, thank you.
http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_or.../6/2892669.jpg

I see pretty much two types of Masochists dominant in our community.

The Masochists that willingly struggle to be 'good', and the masochists that willingly struggle to be 'best'.

Both overuse hyperbole. It's more fun to just watch.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

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If he's using a mouse, then he has a keyboard. Targeting other players (in a four man dungeon) is keybound to F2, F3, and F4 by default. Broken mouse button doesn't explain this.

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Originally Posted by Pells

If he's using a mouse, then he has a keyboard. Targeting other players (in a four man dungeon) is keybound to F2, F3, and F4 by default. Broken mouse button doesn't explain this.

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Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

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But the matter of fact is, if you know that you're going to be playing inefficiently and it gets to the point that it's detrimental to the party (in this case, the healer is letting people die and causing wipes) that's when it becomes a problem. You wouldn't want me tanking with only a mouse because my keyboard is busted (and nevermind the fact that I queued into a roulette knowing that my keyboard is busted) would you? It's perfectly possible to do so with double-click movement and clicking all my skills, doesn't nessescarly mean it's efficent or I'll do a good job of it, and it'll certainly cause problems if it turns out I can't tank with just a mouse.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

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Queueing for a dungeon with a malfunctioning mouse makes even less sense in that case.

It's a funny argument to me. The classes are so simple when it comes down to it there's really no way to have a 'playstyle' and still play optimally.

Sadly, there really is only one way to do most things in this game. Anything else and you probably deserve to be laughed at.

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Originally Posted by Doudousteve

Had 2 bards yesterday in nevereap and none of them wanted to use wanderer's minuet. But they sure as hell used foe requiem on every monsters they could see even though we did not have any magical dpsers. I mean, I understand WM isn't their favorite skill right now, but a 50 minutes run in nevereap is never a good thing.

So yeah, I agree with op.

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I personally seen some BRDs keep damage consistent without Minuet. With Minuet, they were up and down.

But you know what I like the most? When people tell others to uninstall the game because that person is a bad player.

PROTIP: How about you uninstall YOUR game if those players are in high numbers and are bothering you that much.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It's a funny argument to me. The classes are so simple when it comes down to it there's really no way to have a 'playstyle' and still play optimally.

Sadly, there really is only one way to do most things in this game. Anything else and you probably deserve to be laughed at.

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You can still do relatively decently even as a BRD/MCH without WM/GB, or really any other class that doesn't efficiently use their post-50 skills. Most of the problems that me (and most likely others in this topic) have are people who do less than that intentionally and pass it off with a weak excuse or "I play how I want". I mean honestly, I can do around 500 as a BRD by just spamming heavy shot (and I think there was a dRG that did at least 600 by just spamming heavy thrust), you have to be doing something way off the radar to somehow do less than spamming the same 130 potency skill over and over.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You can still do relatively decently even as a BRD/MCH without WM/GB, or really any other class that doesn't efficiently use their post-50 skills. Most of the problems that me (and most likely others in this topic) have are people who do less than that intentionally and pass it off with a weak excuse or "I play how I want". I mean honestly, I can do around 500 as a BRD by just spamming heavy shot (and I think there was a dRG that did at least 600 by just spamming heavy thrust), you have to be doing something way off the radar to somehow do less than spamming the same 130 potency skill over and over.

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Totally agree.

Unlesss it's a DPS check, then I believe some damage is better than no damage. Back in the day, I used to /sit when people in a dungeon would complain about my damage. Chances are high that I get kicked afterwards, but when I'm not fighting, they barely make it to 50% of the boss's HP as if only a tank and healer were fighting. That said, if I AM doing under YOUR expectation, I'll just show you that it can be even worse by not attacking at all.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

But the matter of fact is, if you know that you're going to be playing inefficiently and it gets to the point that it's detrimental to the party (in this case, the healer is letting people die and causing wipes) that's when it becomes a problem. You wouldn't want me tanking with only a mouse because my keyboard is busted (and nevermind the fact that I queued into a roulette knowing that my keyboard is busted) would you? It's perfectly possible to do so with double-click movement and clicking all my skills, doesn't nessescarly mean it's efficent or I'll do a good job of it, and it'll certainly cause problems if it turns out I can't tank with just a mouse.

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haha, yeah. I forgot the last bit where he had intentionally queued up knowing his mouse was busted. That is a bit of a jackass move :X

I think we were looking at this topic the wrong way. Instead of focusing on the bad players, we should start focusing on how to play suboptimaly and have fun while doing it.

Content would not get cleared, but imagine all the fun we could have!