Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Except DPS. Whereas everything a VIT tank can do a STR tank can do equally the same, but he can have good DPS at the same time. Just an exception for savage content where you must have a minimum VIT threshold to sufficiently survive big hits before focusing on STR, thus making hybrid builds the most optimal option.

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"Hybrid" not straight STR. So the argument of STR > VIT is moot because you need both in the long run. Situational events. But dungeon running for experts, it matters not what you roll. It gets mowed down either way. No need to nit pick.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Who the fuck uses Eos ?

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I do in 4 man dungeons. It comes down to allowing me to DPS more vs Fey Wind on 4 targets.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yeah.. except EVERY single tank at high level pulls more then one group at a time. They pull en-masse.

If they pulled one encounter at a time, I could do that too. To bad it never happens like that way.

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I'm far from maxed out on gear (I'm a Paladin main) and I can manage to DPS even on big pulls as long as the tank is mitigating properly. If they aren't, then that's a problem that needs to be addressed with the tank.

Don't get me wrong, I use strength gear on my tank. I just don't think it's your place to tell tanks (especially newer tanks) what they should and shouldn't be using based on how slow trash mobs are dying in Expert dungeons. It's a matter of comfort level and building confidence. If you as a healer are running OOM on trash pack pulls, you may want to review some of your skills and how they can help you with mana management. If the mobs are truly dying so slowly that the pulls are drawn out, don't bother pestering your tank about their accessories because that's the least of your worries. You should be lighting a fire under your DPS instead for not killing things fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Are you pulling one encounter at a time? My usual tanks pull entire rooms at a time. 7.5-10 seconds of doing nothing = dead tank regardless of gear. Every second they are losing half their hp. I would rather just have a strength tank who kills some of the waves faster.

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Yes mutiple groups are being pulled. If you rouse your fairy it's not 7 to 10 seconds of nothing neither is your fairy by itself. Unless of course your tanks can't use cd's they'll be alive by the time you get back to them. Take the first pull to see how much you actually have to heal them and go from there. Bad tanks are bad tanks regardless of secondary stats. You should be able to dps on nearly every pull they do. If that's not the case they are pulling more than needs to be pulled. If your healer can't dps your just hurting the raid dps more often then not regardless of stat placement which is just a bad tank

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If you're just learning tanking for now and feel like you're squishy, you should take at least some VIT accessories. Then when you'll start to be used to the tanking mechanics and how to properly mitigate damage, you won't need that extra VIT anymore and should try to swap progressively to STR accessories. It's I think the best way to get used to it.

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got my right side will all VIT accessories atm, and I took advice from a tank in my FC

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Yeah I'll admit I havn't played current WoW at all. So apparently it is automatic. Much of my more modern tank experience comes from swtor(well did a lot in tera too but that's a radically different game). I don't want to make it sound like it's super hard or anything but dps are actually capable of pulling aggro from a tank. They discuss burst threat rotations how to properly use taunts to get the maximum threat boost, and even some strategies where the tank lets a dps pull with an opening burst and then quickly taunts before going into a max threat rotation. It's not hard or anything but considering they actually have discussions on threat management vs this game where the amount of discussion is based read your skill descriptions it's much more of a consideration there.

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Old Republic's threat generation was pretty easy to game, though. As I recall, the taunts in that game add a multiplier to threat generated, so you're actually encouraged to weave taunts into your tank rotation. Past a certain point, losing threat becomes impossible even if you just stood there auto-attacking.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

"Then went to pull another room after he was dying and said: "Sorry, I usually live through that.""

"He was a ilvl 180+ novice then..."

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Woah woah woah. Hold on. This explains a ton.

You're not enabling your tanks to live through full pulls and you're still telling them to lower their health pool for increased damage. I've figured it out. You're talking as if the standard etiquette is to only pull one group of trash at a time!

You see, pulling 4 mobs is a lot different from pulling 8 mobs. If you have 8 mobs and you kill one faster, you have only cut their strength down by 1/8th. Diminishing enemy damage becomes less important compared to being able to sustain high damage.

If you have 4 mobs and kill one faster, you've cut their damage down by 1/4. Which sounds like more. BUT AoEs are only hitting half their potential per tick and cast. Which is bad for most DPS and devastating for the likes of BLM. YOU were the one demanding slow runs all along! Not the VIT-enablers!

Nobody gets to 180 without knowing just two dungeons by then. And a tank at that ilvl, if not a little sooner can quite capably withstand every full-pull available in both dungeons. I think I was like i176 as DRK when I survived my first pull from wasp-totem pull in Neverreap. You want tanks to strength-up because you're only able to tackle areas if they're already doing it the non-threatening way.

You're just asking your party to find ways to speed up only after they're playing super conservatively to account for your shortcomings.

Anecdotally, I made a Neverreap run with my fresh 60 FC tank buddy the other night. I was on my i185 DRG alt. We got matched with a fresh 60 WHM.

We wiped right out the gate in the first room. Note, he's a 60 DRK who switched from a 50 PLD. He did full strength build on his DRK. STR accessories. He knows how to push cooldowns.

We wiped twice before the first boss. His dps didn't matter for shit bc the WHM could not keep him alive for love or Benediction. We had to start doing smaller pulls. I started advising him on how big to pull. He igored me at the "two bees, not four" and we wiped again...not bc of dps but bc healer could not keep him alive.

It was one of the most painful Neverreap runs to date.

Ran it last night w same tank and our regular healer. He even tanked all four bees without dying.

So I would say no, the all-STR build isn't going to work for every party. Just like tanking in general, when to use and not use STR takes flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

Woah woah woah. Hold on. This explains a ton.

You're not enabling your tanks to live through full pulls and you're still telling them to lower their health pool for increased damage. I've figured it out. You're talking as if the standard etiquette is to only pull one group of trash at a time!

You see, pulling 4 mobs is a lot different from pulling 8 mobs. If you have 8 mobs and you kill one faster, you have only cut their strength down by 1/8th. Diminishing enemy damage becomes less important compared to being able to sustain high damage.

If you have 4 mobs and kill one faster, you've cut their damage down by 1/4. Which sounds like more. BUT AoEs are only hitting half their potential per tick and cast. Which is bad for most DPS and devastating for the likes of BLM. YOU were the one demanding slow runs all along! Not the VIT-enablers!

Nobody gets to 180 without knowing just two dungeons by then. And a tank at that ilvl, if not a little sooner can quite capably withstand every full-pull available in both dungeons. I think I was like i176 as DRK when I survived my first pull from wasp-totem pull in Neverreap. You want tanks to strength-up because you're only able to tackle areas if they're already doing it the non-threatening way.

You're just asking your party to find ways to speed up after your own shortcomings have been taken into account.

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Yes, to increase overall sustain of the group. When you full pull with a new healer your healing them just fine by going b*lls to the walls. However, you run out of stamina quickly, you don't have the gear to sustain that pull for very long. Especially with bloated HP tank.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

What usually happens is the fight takes too long.

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If the fight's taking too long that is not the tank's fault. Put the blame where it belongs - with the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yes, to increase overall sustain of the group. When you full pull with a new healer your healing them just fine by going b*lls to the walls. However, you run out of stamina quickly, you don't have the gear to sustain that pull for very long. Especially with bloated HP tank.

However, with a DPS Tank (still using tank stance) they kill the monsters faster, each monster killed is that much more damage you don't have to worry about. The fight goes faster.

What usually happens is the fight takes too long.

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If you can't keep them alive in the first place what's it matter tho? There not gonna shave off a crap ton of a pull by themselves

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

If the fight's taking too long that is not the tank's fault. Put the blame where it belongs - with the DPS.

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They are intentionally making it harder on the healer of the party. Which is "bad".

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Tanks *besides paladin since i've never played one* are one of the highest AOE damage jobs in the game. So them doing 50% less damage is their fault.

:)

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o lawld, i hope no one takes you serious after this.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Tanks *besides paladin since i've never played one* are one of the highest AOE damage jobs in the game. So them doing 50% less damage is their fault.

:)

They are intentionally making it harder on the healer of the party. Which is "bad".

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d03d236ef8.gif

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Old Republic's threat generation was pretty easy to game, though. As I recall, the taunts in that game add a multiplier to threat generated, so you're actually encouraged to weave taunts into your tank rotation. Past a certain point, losing threat becomes impossible even if you just stood there auto-attacking.

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Like I said not super hard. High end content does have the typical things that require you to use taunts so you can't just spam them for extra threat without consideration for anything. In their version of savage when dps are just going absolutely all out the tanks have to at least give threat some consideration in their rotation whereas here there's not really anything to think about threat wise.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

o lawld, i hope no one takes you serious after this.

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When you apply damage bonuses to having that extra 200-250 strength and the fact that for example Warriors can use all their damage buffs and then overpower for ridiculous amounts of damage in AOE then you really should see it. Especially with Vengeance up the mobs literally melt.

Strength improves the tanks self-healing and sustain through damage and killing things faster.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d03d236ef8.gif

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Lost all hope for him after that I'm done....

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d03d236ef8.gif

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/thread

EVERYONE GO HOME, DISCUSSION IS DONE

Nektulos has to be trolling, surely? Surely? We've established he's a scholar who isnt able to find time to do DPS when a tank pulls multiple packs (despite lots of scholars in this thread, myself included, saying it's perfectly easy to at least find enough GCDs to throw out some Baned dots). He runs out of mana on huge trash packs as a -scholar-, a class which has basically infinite mana due to their mechanics, unless a tank does huge damage via strength. He thinks that the 15-20% extra damage you get from wearing strength accessories equates to 50% more damage. He thinks ALL tanks should go strength even when undergeared, and that it makes it -easier- on the healer. He's also missing Stoneskin as a crossclass but that's by the by (double shield before a huge pull is kinda handy for dpsing at the start).

It's a shame because the general advice of tanks wearing Strength gear WHEN THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE is perfectly valid, but the way OP has been phrasing the reasons is just causing everyone to lose their minds.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Going strength doesn't make you suddenly lose more mitigation, defenses. Vitality gear does not make you any tankier, it bloats your HP.

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I know that lol I keep saying it everytime someone is arguing that going with VIT makes you tankier. It's just that when you're not that experienced in tanking it feels safer to get some more HP before going STR. It gives a margin of error when a player is new to tanking and learning the job.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Nektulos has to be trolling, surely? Surely? We've established he's a scholar who isnt able to find time to do DPS when a tank pulls multiple packs (despite lots of scholars in this thread, myself included, saying it's perfectly easy to at least find enough GCDs to throw out some Baned dots). He runs out of mana on huge trash packs as a -scholar-, a class which has basically infinite mana due to their mechanics, unless a tank does huge damage via strength. He thinks that the 15-20% extra damage you get from wearing strength accessories equates to 50% more damage. He thinks ALL tanks should go strength even when undergeared, and that it makes it -easier- on the healer. He's also missing Stoneskin as a crossclass but that's by the by (double shield before a huge pull is kinda handy for dpsing at the start).

It's a shame because the general advice of tanks wearing Strength gear WHEN THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE is perfectly valid, but the way OP has been phrasing the reasons is just causing everyone to lose their minds.

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Strength Accessories + 20% from Maim + 50% from Berserk + Unchained is a very huge increase in damage. I would say even about 50% because damage modifiers multiply your damage. I was talking about that if you read my thread.

I have a much easier time healing dungeons when the tanks go full strength, because things honesty die faster.

Strength tanks have more self-healing and sustained health and usually know how to use their mitigation tools better.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I know that lol I keep saying it everytime someone is arguing that going with VIT makes you tankier. It's just that when you're not that experienced in tanking it feels safer to get some more HP before going STR. It gives a margin of error when a player is new to tanking and learning the job.

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Which is why it's not the end of the world tho. If it makes you more comfy or gives room for more mistakes if you need that its ok. Obviously if you don't need that you'll be doing more for the group but let's be honest the difference dps wise for the tank alone isn't going to make or break anything pre Alex savage other then caring a bad dps or 2...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Strength Accessories + 20% from Maim + 50% from Berserk + Unchained is a very huge increase in damage. I would say even about 50% because damage modifiers multiply.

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Newsflash: Tanks with Vitality Accessories use Maim, Berserk, Unchained too. They get those bonuses multiplied on top of their base damage, which is about 15-20% max lower than a full strength tank.

Noone is debating that strength tanks do more damage, they do. But the difference between a Full Strength and Full Vitality tank is about 20% max, no more. Wearing Vitality gear doesnt stop you from having access to DPS skills.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Newsflash: Tanks with Vitality Accessories use Maim, Berserk, Unchained too. They get those bonuses multiplied on top of their base damage, which is about 15-20% max lower than a full strength tank.

Noone is debating that strength tanks do more damage, they do. But the difference between a Full Strength and Full Vitality tank is about 20% max, no more. Wearing Vitality gear doesnt stop you from having access to DPS skills.

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News Flash, they are also losing a significant amount of damage by lacking that 200-250 strength. That strength adds up the potency of your attacks damage. All those "buffs" are multiplied by your strength and attack power.

That 20% is a lot when you add up the multipliers.

100% base x 4 = 400%.
120% base x 4 = 480%.

I also think its more then 20%, 25% I would say.

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

Fixed it for you

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http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Storm's_Path
Scales off attack power.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Clemency
Scales off attack power.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Souleater
Scales off attack power.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Bloodbath
Scales off attack power.

Strength also makes things die faster, each dead mob = less damage done to the tank. However, vitality not only lowers your damage but does NOT improve your self-healing or mitigation one bit. You will be dying just as fast, it gives you a few more seconds.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Soo in short, you're a filthy casual who doesn't want to do their job decently? So you blame the next tank you see with vit gear?Ya know, how bout just admitting you suck and wish to know how to git gud, then maybe we can take ya seriously. As for making it harder on healers? Must be the ones you roll with, seeing the few I go into content with can dps, heal, and make me a sammich, all at the same time when running as a tank.

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I see you don't PUG. If I had a pet tank myself I would probably not be making this thread. This thread is about tanks learning the game, maybe you should "git lerning 2 reed".

Just posting randomly when you come into a thread doesn't make you look smart, it makes you look silly.

What i'm doing is telling tanks to take off the training wheels they don't really need.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

GOOD tanks DO BETTER AT self-healing and SUSTAINING health and usually know how to use their mitigation tools better.

BAD tanks are usually lazy and put everything on the healer's shoulders.[/I]

Instead of making fun of me or my threads, can you actually listen to what I am saying? Why are tanks intentionally making it harder on their healers who try their best?

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Fixed it for you

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Strength Accessories + 20% from Maim + 50% from Berserk + Unchained is a very huge increase in damage. I would say even about 50% because damage modifiers multiply your damage. I was talking about that if you read my thread.

Yes, I do have issues healing through massive mobs, i'm low ilvl. Still wearing a few pieces of level 58 gear.

I have a much easier time healing dungeons when the tanks go full strength, because things honesty die faster.

Strength tanks have more self-healing and sustained health and usually know how to use their mitigation tools better.

Vitality tanks are usually lazy and put everything on the healer's shoulders.

Instead of making fun of me or my threads, can you actually listen to what I am saying? Why are tanks intentionally making it harder on their healers who try their best?

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Soo in short, you're a filthy casual who doesn't want to do their job decently? So you blame the next tank you see with vit gear?Ya know, how bout just admitting you suck and wish to know how to git gud, then maybe we can take ya seriously. As for making it harder on healers? Must be the ones you roll with, seeing the few I go into content with can dps, heal, and make me a sammich, all at the same time when running as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

http://i.imgur.com/CKPkwmk.png

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I'm saving this. lol

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I'm saving this.

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Don't, it's really bad.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yes, to increase overall sustain of the group. When you full pull with a new healer your healing them just fine by going b*lls to the walls. However, you run out of stamina quickly, you don't have the gear to sustain that pull for very long. Especially with bloated HP tank.

However, with a DPS Tank (still using tank stance) they kill the monsters faster, each monster killed is that much more damage you don't have to worry about. The fight goes faster.

What usually happens is the fight takes too long.

Yes, I am asking them to make up for "my shortcomings" because that is the style in which they like to do the zone. If every single tank in Duty Finder is going to do room pulls and that will be the norm, then please make it easier for your healers and take off the training wheels.

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But this begs the question. Why are you trying to tell others how to squeeze out speed-runs when you aren't even considering speed-run-sized pulls as an option?
This thread would have ended so much sooner if we realised you were promoting for early-gear playstyles from the start.

When a large portion of people are already handling these bigger pulls, why are these halved ones even worth complaining about?

Strength tanks do not always equal good tanks. Is does not automatically make them easier to heal. It does not automatically make things die faster. You have to have a GOOD tank for strength specing not be a pain in the ass. All your gonna be doing is spam healing them while hopefully they survive. You shouldn't be riding on the back of a tank carrying the dps YOU should be contributing as well just because your not good enough. If you can't dps with a GOOD full vit tank you honostly don't deserve a GOOD strength tank. If gear is your issue get better gear and start carrying your own weight. Once you can do above your job both tanks and healers should be dps in a perfect world so get better gear and start stancw dancing then you can complain when others don't. till then your just asking to be carried

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Riddle me this, my role playing OP;
Say I roleplay a tank who's allergic to slaying accessories, would your complaints not break the RPnerd code of ethics?

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You didn't answer my question, OP. It did receive 9 likes, get on it.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I'm saving this.

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Only if you're saving it to laugh at it some more. As well as the fact that they used it to try and validate their argument.

I too would like to know that answer for sheer lols.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

You didn't answer my question, OP. It did receive 9 likes, get on it.

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Make that 10 now. :3

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I see you don't PUG. If I had a pet tank myself I would probably not be making this thread. This thread is about tanks learning the game, maybe you should "git lerning 2 reed".

Just posting randomly when you come into a thread doesn't make you look smart, it makes you look silly.

What i'm doing is telling tanks to take off the training wheels they don't really need.

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implying i use titan egi? oh lawld, please. stahp, imma die of laughter from your own hilarious idiocy. Just because a profile shows up with one thing, doesn't mean one can't rock another.
Anyways, i'm not really posting as random as the one who is getting so butt hurt because 'whaaaaaa, people don't play how i want them to mommie, make those tanks that i think are inferior, do as i say'

See where I am going with this? Yer bitching over not having yer way, this is an MMO, get the hell used to people using different approaches to content. Be it wearing vit for a bit then gradually getting the hang and understanding of what they (the player) can do so they can swap piece by piece, or by going full str after knowing well enough what their abilities are, but to flat out make a post and whine at those whom use vit for reasons of their own that you can't seem to understand, accept for showing your own lack of ability and want someone else to cover it up, no.. just no, that's foolish, selfish, juvenile, and down right something only a casual will try and say. So how about coming to the understanding that not everyone is the same in the skill department, and that some need time to tackle content in different aspects? Time which you seem could be better spent on others, by telling them how you want them to play, but not yourself.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Make that 10 now. :3



implying i use titan egi? oh lawld, please. stahp, imma die of laughter from your own hilarious idiocy. Just because a profile shows up with one thing, doesn't mean one can't rock another.
Anyways, i'm not really posting as random as the one who is getting so butt hurt because 'whaaaaaa, people don't play how i want them to mommie, make those tanks that i think are inferior, do as i say'

See where I am going with this? Yer bitching over not having yer way, this is an MMO, get the hell used to people using different approaches to content. Be it wearing vit for a bit then gradually getting the hang and understanding of what they (the player) can do so they can swap piece by piece, or by going full str after knowing well enough what their abilities are, but to flat out make a post and whine at those whom use vit for reasons of their own that you can't seem to understand, accept for showing your own lack of ability and want someone else to cover it up, no.. just no, that's foolish, selfish, juvenile, and down right something only a casual will try and say. So how about coming to the understanding that not everyone is the same in the skill department, and that some need time to tackle content in different aspects? Time which you seem could be better spent on others, by telling them how you want them to play, but not yourself.

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I met a pet tank as in a friend. I didn't even read your class actually. ;)

I don't see you calling people names then defending a stat that creates laziness and does nothing but makes fights longer. All "hard" content in the game is a DPS Check, if you don't clear that check, you wipe.

Sure, I can DPS too. However I will never be up to-par DPS with a proper Tank.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sure, I can DPS too. However I will never be up to-par DPS with a proper Tank.

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On trash pulls you should be pretty close even if they're in STR gear.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

On trash pulls you should be pretty close even if they're in STR gear.

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If i'm not doing anything but DPSing maybe. Tank is probably dead if they do more then a few mobs. It actually isn't hard to DPS in regular instances below 60. However once you get to 60 its room pulls only. On bosses I can actually DPS some times fine.

However, its still nowhere near tank levels of damage. It shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

However, its still nowhere near tank levels of damage. It shouldn't be.

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Once your gear is caught up and with proper cooldown management/pet usage, you should be able to approach 80-90% of your tank's DPS if they're in full STR gear (and usually surpass them if not) on any pull where you get significant DPS time. It's all about creating opportunities to DPS, and once you get used to that, you can easily do comparable damage to a similarly-geared tank's damage.

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

That's why I run a hybrid build.

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Aye im also rolling with Hybrids most of the time, tho i still have full STR and full VIT gearsets for diffirent fights(faust solo-tank is full vit so is A2S for example).

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Strength Accessories + 20% from Maim + 50% from Berserk + Unchained is a very huge increase in damage. I would say even about 50% because damage modifiers multiply your damage. I was talking about that if you read my thread.

I have a much easier time healing dungeons when the tanks go full strength, because things honesty die faster.

Strength tanks have more self-healing and sustained health and usually know how to use their mitigation tools better.

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I don't consider unchained a damage booster.It's mererly nullifying the damage reduction from defiance and has an annoyingly long cooldown.Also if you gonna use that combo for burst damage it's much better to use those 5 stacks of wrath as abandon instead for a fell cleave which is a free 500 potency hit.Not to mention deliverance gives you more base damage than unchained will.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I don't consider unchained a damage booster.It's mererly nullifying the damage reduction from defiance and has an annoyingly long cooldown.Also if you gonna use that combo for burst damage it's much better to use those 5 stacks of wrath as abandon instead for a fell cleave which is a free 500 potency hit.Not to mention deliverance gives you more base damage than unchained will.

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120s is about as long as most defensive cool-downs. Its not that long.

It makes you 1/4th more damage.

Its a huge damage boost because "all" your damage is being cut by 25%.

Deliverance also cuts your threat and defense down significantly.

Does Deliverance give you threat? I haven't played Warrior past 50ish yet but I was a 50 warrior for quite a long time.