Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Am I blind or was there no mudra rotation section in the guide? I've been wondering if after the new skills my hatred for mudras would be gone and I'd enjoy ninja once again, if people could point me to the general direction of how mudra rotations work now so I'd be able to decide if I rather lvl up drg or nin next

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Mudra works the same as it has only change is after 54 we cast a lot less 3 step ninjutsu so if you can stand to use 1 or 2 steps with a 3 step every 60s or if you let Huton fall off level ninja.

Saw this in the census and thought I'd share it
http://i.imgur.com/Qi2M10c.jpg

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

With or without food/pot? Do you have a WAR in your party or do you have to keep up DE? What does your opener look like? For reference, I have the exact same gear except for the gloves (i190 gordian), and last raid I parsed 1270 on Faust with flint caviar and WAR in the party, didn't use a pot though.

Regarding being last in dps on Faust, is this total dps or incoming dps on Faust? Because if it's total dps, DRG and BRD numbers get inflated quite a bit (same with SMN and MNK) by aoe hitting adds. BLM and NIN should be pretty close with similar gear in my experience though with one or the other being slightly ahead depending on crit rng.

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Thanks for your answers !

I had a war in my party, and I was under food (pira pira) and x-pot. I have sometimes huge mudra lags.

How do you open up with Suiton ? Would it be better for me ? Could you please explain to me your opener ?

Thanks a lot for the answers !

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

http://i.imgur.com/Qi2M10c.jpg

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Woah, in 2014 there were 2 kinds of BLMs O___O!!
There is a suprisingly little amount of NINs huh? In proportion to the others, that is.

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Originally Posted by Yunnae

Thanks for your answers !

I had a war in my party, and I was under food (pira pira) and x-pot. I have sometimes huge mudra lags.

How do you open up with Suiton ? Would it be better for me ? Could you please explain to me your opener ?

Thanks a lot for the answers !

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Under these conditions, you could certainly parse a good bit higher. My opener, if I use a pot, looks like this:

Huton pre pull (15 seconds), SE (B4B+IR), GS (pot), DE (suiton), SE (TA+Kassatsu), SF (Shuriken), Mutilate (DwaD), SE (Mug), GS (Duality), AE (Jugulate).

From there onwards, just keep up Huton with AC if under 18 seconds and refresh SF and Mutilate as close to 1 sec as possible. Mudras/TA as usual.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Under these conditions, you could certainly parse a good bit higher. My opener, if I use a pot, looks like this:

Huton pre pull (15 seconds), SE (B4B+IR), GS (pot), DE (suiton), SE (TA+Kassatsu), SF (Shuriken), Mutilate (DwaD), SE (Mug), GS (Duality), AE (Jugulate).

From there onwards, just keep up Huton with AC if under 18 seconds and refresh SF and Mutilate as close to 1 sec as possible. Mudras/TA as usual.

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This is exactly what I do, it's a pain to be honest to not do more :( I don't understand why. So you refresh huton only when it's under 18 sec ?

Cause I do it when it's under 40-30 something like that

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Woah, in 2014 there were 2 kinds of BLMs O___O!!
There is a suprisingly little amount of NINs huh? In proportion to the others, that is.

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well if you do comparaison between effort/reward of the other jobs in comparaison of the ninja.... it's normal to see soo little ninja. the mudra lag did push a looot of player out at the start and the recent add of the jobs didn't help much... on the 5 skill we did receive from heavensward 2 are situational (smoke bomb and shadowalkers) personally i have never really feel the need to use them, 1 is kinda meh (dream into dream), it leave us with only 2 skill really interesting. AC that did make a mess into the cycle and duality that it's a outgcd skill...

when you do comparaison with the other jobs, sorry that not enough for appeal to player to play it. since with all the work asked for maintain a good dps, we are dealing about the same than monk, while dragoon is doing far better. people want big number will less effort and fun, ninja is extremely demanding and the fun factor is undermined by the mudra lag. maybe in japan is not a trouble.... but well here the mudra lag is something quite annoying.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Woah, in 2014 there were 2 kinds of BLMs O___O!!
There is a suprisingly little amount of NINs huh? In proportion to the others, that is.

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In my experience, rogue/stealth/scout type classes are always lower in population except at times when they're overpowered, so I'm not particularly surprised. I assume this data is also basically recording whichever jobs people leveled to 60 first, and well, NIN's additions weren't as flashy as several of the others. I'm surprised there are so many BRDs, though, what with Minuet and all.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

In my experience, rogue/stealth/scout type classes are always lower in population except at times when they're overpowered, so I'm not particularly surprised. I assume this data is also basically recording whichever jobs people leveled to 60 first, and well, NIN's additions weren't as flashy as several of the others. I'm surprised there are so many BRDs, though, what with Minuet and all.

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even with minuet them gameplay don't have this much changed, is not different than a black mage or summoner in the form, meaning they need to know when attack and when move. indeed it did changed the gameplay way to move, but in all of this, do they had to move when nothing was coming at them ? no, then *shrugs*

other point going against the ninja, because it's hardly a sneak class (i don't even remember when i have use sneak for the last time), the gameplay didn't evolve in the good sense, we did get a few skill, but do they have bring new mechanic? new gameplay experience? more fun? no at this 3 question.
worst the trouble the job have are still not adressed. because... let's be honest, they can't solve the mudra lag without change the whole netcode. the TA can still be missed if the monster move at the last second, we are the only jobs that loose one effect from positional, all other was take out from the dragoon and monk months ago. finally, and i know some are not thinking like me but..., ninja have too much stuff to control or check out. worst, we are the only jobs that have skill that can be failed. even with the mudra, if your mind wander and you don't stay focus from the start to the end, your cycle can be screw.

- a monk will train him muscular memory and will do most of him cycle in automatic, most of the dot and buff are tie to that combo. you can focus on the AoE of the monster.
- a dragoon cycle is still mostly the same, only when blood of the dragon is launched he must modify it a little. do it's really hard? quite not, actually it's quite simple, they try to make it look hard, but that not.

all of this for say that our cycle is not smooth, mostly because it was made like this for cover the fact we had no positional, but well, they did added positional, now we do have positional, buff & debuff on the monster to keep and buff on ourself to take care, while still making our mind work every 20 second for the ninjutsu. and the better is no buff/debuff duration is matched, meaning we are forced to loose them at some point.

don't get me wrong, i'm saying anyone that simply want to enjoy the game and have fun, will avoid ninja, because of all the stuff i did said before. more important, ninja without warrior can match the monk dps if perfectly played. while the dragoon will blows us in the term of dps.

people want fun jobs with big number for them ego. that why ninja are soo few now. the dev team is responsible for this. why? because they don't test them jobs outside japan before release them. all is tested japan, where lag are not an issue.

then this number are normal, not because we are not overpowered or because we are a sneaky jobs, but because we have the jobs that are more a chore than fun to play! then it will only appeal to a minority.

It's worth noting that the pie chart is apparently including every character that has that job at 31-60 (which I wasn't aware of for my first post), so older classes naturally have higher numbers than the newer ones. I'd imagine the population of NIN mains is noticeably higher than the number on the chart since they're still pretty popular for Savage.

Ninja can be good if your on a good gaming PC, running 3rd party software and have a static to cater to your needs. I don't have any these... So gimping the class further because trick attack has pretty much ruined it for me.

Does trick attack increase limit break damage? My gut says it wouldn't, but want to be sure.

it doesnt.
LB isnt affected by anything other than the raid weapon's ilvls.

Well no changes for us to deal with tp this patch maybe next time.

Kinda sucks that DRK got their TP problems addressed so quickly and NIN still hasn't. It's like they refuse to give NIN anything, even simple QoL, that could even remotely resemble a buff. It's been nothing but nerfs since the class was created. :/

no change for the ninja and a boost of damage net for the monk, do it was needed, i will leave the monk say it or not, mine is still 51.

i want to add something at what i have said before about the cycle, what i means it's not smooth, normally passed a certain time you don't need to think to the cycle of the other, mostly because you have done it soo many time that you do it by automatism. sadly it's not possible with the ninja, since every 20 second we force our brain out of the automatic mode for do the ninjutsu. but well...

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Kinda sucks that DRK got their TP problems addressed so quickly and NIN still hasn't. It's like they refuse to give NIN anything, even simple QoL, that could even remotely resemble a buff. It's been nothing but nerfs since the class was created. :/

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since the ninja is soo little played they don't feel the need to adress our concern or trouble. actually we are more a bother than anything. worst with this patch the top will become clear as: Dragoon>monk>ninja.
the only thing saving the jobs is TA.... but until when? until people don't feel it's needed anymore and will prefer bring the other.


because let's be honest one second, what bring the ninja to the group?
our AoE damage is weak, mono target dps we are below dragoon and soon monk, utility? seriously? Goad is only one person and the threat tool are junk.... the only redeeming feature is TA....

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

no change for the ninja and a boost of damage net for the monk, do it was needed, i will leave the monk say it or not, mine is still 51.

i want to add something at what i have said before about the cycle, what i means it's not smooth, normally passed a certain time you don't need to think to the cycle of the other, mostly because you have done it soo many time that you do it by automatism. sadly it's not possible with the ninja, since every 20 second we force our brain out of the automatic mode for do the ninjutsu. but well...



since the ninja is soo little played they don't feel the needed to adress our concern or trouble. actually we are more a bother than anything. worst with this patch the top will become clear as: Dragoon>monk>ninja.
the only thing saving the jobs is TA.... but until when? until people don't feel it's needed anymore and will prefer bring the other.

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If you still didn't get the cycles of dot/debuff/mudra usage into 2nd nature after all this time, you might finally consider switching jobs. This is not meant to be offensive, but you're complaining about this basically since the day you hit 60, and seriously, if you still don't "feel" the job, it might just not be for you. Especially since there's nothing to change about because it's a subjective feeling, not a balancing issue that affects the job balance in any shape or form.

Well for us in Europa we gonna get buffed haha.
Eu Server = Ninja Buff :D
I think even with Monk buffs Ninja ist ok as always, and for grp that are running Monk/Nin its even better.
Just wanna have a nice Mudra flow and dont have to worry to clip gcd even with Shurkien :/

Apparently they are aware of the TP issue plaguing the class. I'm wondering why they chose not to fix it right away.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

If you still didn't get the cycles of dot/debuff/mudra usage into 2nd nature after all this time, you might finally consider switching jobs. This is not meant to be offensive, but you're complaining about this basically since the day you hit 60, and seriously, if you still don't "feel" the job, it might just not be for you. Especially since there's nothing to change about because it's a subjective feeling, not a balancing issue that affects the job balance in any shape or form.

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i love people that don't read other, all i point is the fact that the cycle is not smooth nor fluid, do it's a trouble for me, not really, do i find it fun to play? clearly not. the jobs have far more at offer but well since the jobs seems toreceive little consideration from the dev i will not say it's all good. seriously the skill we did get from heavensward are a joke, they didn't really improve the situation nor did make the jobs more interesting to play. worst 2 are soo much situational that i have never feel the need to use it. a good tank will probably never loose the hate, only a bad tank will. but i digress, all i'm saying is the jobs need attention and to be looked at. between useless skill, cycle that not smooth (thanks to the mudra and it lag) it never get to the point where a good player can play in automatic...

a good player will passed a certain time to play act by automatism, but is not possible with the ninja, since the ninjustsu break this states forcing us to think our skill, it's cool, but if we don't take in account the mudra lag.... the weaponskill combo are not mixing well with it. that what i'm talking about, if you don't notice it, that means you are not to the point to reach an automatism play.

i did said it before the release of heavensward and even after the release of this expansion, they need to make smoother the mix between ninjutsu and weaponskill combo. when you play a monk or a dragoon, them personal tool don't feel like they oppose each other, same for the other dps jobs, they are part of it and mix well together. however in the case of the ninja that not the case, never they have try to make the weaponskill and the ninjutsu interact together not make the whole experience complet. the ninjutsu was added over the weaponskill system and without think if the lag will affect it did decide it was well.

on paper the ninjutsu is brillant, in perfect condition it's amazing, that the truth... however, when the lag come into play it make it the experience tiring and not fun. but worst, instead to make the two system work together they have make it more complexe to play it. AC was a good add, a step in the good direction, if it position was better... i did said it countless time and i'm not the only one i feel DE need to be moved behind SF, this simple change, without increase our dps drastically will make the whole experience more smoother.

finally something important, what i regret the most is not the smoother experience, but more the lack of evolution of our main tool the ninjutsu.

oh just for conclude, like you say is my personal feeling however, i'm not coming there saying change of jobs because what you feel and what i feel are not the same. try to respect my opinion a bit.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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Do you know why is like that, right? I personally believe this job would be much better if split from the rogue class and have his own skillset

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

it doesnt.
LB isnt affected by anything other than the raid weapon's ilvls.

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I'm pretty sure LB is affected by TA, because it's affected by debuffs on the boss.
It's not affected by buffs on the party to calculate damage, but Vulnerability Up comes after that calculation when it hits the boss.

I've actually tried testing this before and it was consistently higher.
I would have to do it more to be completely conclusive, but I'm pretty sure NIN has the only ability that can buff the damage LB.

Silent adding absolutely nothing to the convo as usual. The most common and looked for progression setup is still DRG/NIN. Regardless of his opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I'm pretty sure LB is affected by TA, because it's affected by debuffs on the boss.
It's not affected by buffs on the party to calculate damage, but Vulnerability Up comes after that calculation when it hits the boss.

I've actually tried testing this before and it was consistently higher.
I would have to do it more to be completely conclusive, but I'm pretty sure NIN has the only ability that can buff the damage LB.

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This has been tested into oblivion and TA does definitely not increase lb damage. As stated before, weapon ilvl of the group is really the only thing that affects it.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

This has been tested into oblivion and TA does definitely not increase lb damage. As stated before, weapon ilvl of the group is really the only thing that affects it.

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Really? I've seen others saying the same that their tests show an increase.
We know certain debuffs affect the LB. Ravana's Liberations makes him take more damage, for example.
I know for a fact Vulnerability DOWN reduces the LB's damage.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Really? I've seen others saying the same that their tests show an increase.
We know certain debuffs affect the LB. Ravana's Liberations makes him take more damage, for example.
I know for a fact Vulnerability DOWN reduces the LB's damage.

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Buffs/debuffs forced by the player/raid don't affect it. Just do further testing with a sample size as huge as possible and take the average. Lb damage fluctuates within a fixed range just as every other ability/skill in the game, so you'll need quite a large number of lb's to even that out.

It would be nice if they made trickattack 5% if you failed to hit from rear. In pvp it is hard to use unless you want to stand in hide for a few minutes.

Yeah still feeling like we're not competitive to others melee

And correct me if i'm wrong but, In 2.0, didn't the DRG looses their combo if they fail their positions? Then, in the same 2.0, they disable it , combo don't fail anymore, ang buffs too. Just DMG.

Why are ninjas still suffering of this position?

In A1S i place my trick attack just 2sec right before he turn to place his laser, but due to latency, he was already turned for the server, so no 10% for all the raid.

Hi ninjas. I really should read the OP, but I've got a lot of stuff on my plate. Just need a very, very, quick yes/no.

Other than the introduction of Armour Crush, are there any substantial differences in the way the Ninja plays? If yes, I'll have to read OP, lmao.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Hi ninjas. I really should read the OP, but I've got a lot of stuff on my plate. Just need a very, very, quick yes/no.

Other than the introduction of Armour Crush, are there any substantial differences in the way the Ninja plays? If yes, I'll have to read OP, lmao.

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Nothing substantial at all. We have two new oGCD abilities, but it's not hard to figure out how to use either one.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Hi ninjas. I really should read the OP, but I've got a lot of stuff on my plate. Just need a very, very, quick yes/no.

Other than the introduction of Armour Crush, are there any substantial differences in the way the Ninja plays? If yes, I'll have to read OP, lmao.

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Eh, I did a quick writeup of what I think is optimal Duality usage here. Other than that, it's just Armor Crush and a generic 300 potency oGCD. Lemme know if you need anything NIN related. I've been kinda lazy lately, but I still check forums/reddit/blog.

I got a bit of a late start in HW...i'm conflicted on Esoteric vs Alex NM gear slots. Sorry if the below has already been asked 70 times!

I have i200 weapon already and am 15 Esoteric short this week on chest/pants slot.

My problem is I haven't started collecting pieces for the Alex NM chest piece yet and the Esoteric chest is Skill Speed which I know is not optimal especially with long term TP issues we have. Should I just buy esoteric chest and get Alex NM legs so I can get the higher ilvl gear quicker or should I take the slower path (and probably more optimal) and get esoteric pants and start the slow process of Alex NM chest? Decisions, decisions... any help is appreciated greatly.

i did weapon > legs > belt > feet. i got the alex n chest and head peice for much needed acc needs until i get eso head peice..after that i might get chest unless void arc comes out and drops a new one D:!

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Decisions, decisions... any help is appreciated greatly.

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Well, the 190 pants are even more SS than the 200 chest is. If you're looking to up your ilvl without too much SS, I'd do pants, then chest (though the SS sucks, it's the best unless you can clear A4S), while using those weeks to get the smaller Alex pieces. Maybe hands and feet the first week?

So looking through the op I'm a little lost on how you would usually start a fight. Up till now I've just been doing the
huton, wait 15, 1»bfb+ir»2»mug+jug»de»suiton»1»ta+kassatsu»sf»raiton»mutilate»dream»1»2»dual»ae

But knowing that it's best to open with the dots this seems less than optimal. Can anyone help me fix my opener?

This is the opener i've been using and pretty much same discussed in this thread:
Suiton on pull -> SE [Kass] GS [BFB] DE [IR] SE [TA] GS [Duality] AE [Fuma/Raiton] SE [DWaD] SF [Mug] Mutilate.

This way you fit all your big hitting abilities into the TA window, if you don't do Kass before TA you will miss an ogcd (Mug) which probably wouldn't be the end of the world but it is definitely a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

So looking through the op I'm a little lost on how you would usually start a fight. Up till now I've just been doing the
huton, wait 15, 1»bfb+ir»2»mug+jug»de»suiton»1»ta+kassatsu»sf»raiton»mutilate»dream»1»2»dual»ae

But knowing that it's best to open with the dots this seems less than optimal. Can anyone help me fix my opener?

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Your order of weponskills is fine, don't change it. But why would you double weave jug and mug before TA? What I personally do is the following:

Huton pre pull - wait 20s

Suiton while tank is pulling, 1 (B4B), 2 (IR), Dancing Edge (Pot), 1 (TA+Kassatsu), Shadow Fang (Fuma Shuriken), Mutilation (DwaD), 1 (Mug), 2 (Duality), Aeolian Edge (Jugulate)

This way all ogcd's fit into the TA window. I opt for Fuma instead of Raiton because of mudra lag, if your latency is good, just do Raiton, though I don't know if you get the final Jugulate into TA that way. I also do Suiton pre pull so I don't have to do a 3 step mudra while under B4B and IR. This is a very lag friendly opener without any double weaving (except for TA+Kassatsu which is obviously needed to ensure the TA effect for SF) and the one I personally get the highest dps out of.

Is there any reason to do DoTs earlier and Duality AE last versus DoTs last or does it not really matter?

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Is there any reason to do DoTs earlier and Duality AE last versus DoTs last or does it not really matter?

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The first choice, more uptime for your dots means better sustained DPS for the entire fight. Not to mention it'll be near impossible for your DoTs to get the benefit of your potion, BfB, IR, and TA.

Has anyone ever tested the dps difference between the i190 gordian chest and the i200 eso chest poece?

I'm getting my 4th shaft next reset, been late to weekly alex farm. I'm definitely getting the eso pants next but I'm not sure if I should buy the chest piece right after. Ofc I'm going to buy it sooner or later anyway, but since it will be quite some time before I get my hands on a gobtwine (only started savage recently, currently on A2s, also static's more on the casual side with only a few hours of raiding a week), I'm debating if it's still worth it to get the chest over the i190 piece or if I'm better off spending my eso elsewhere for now. For reference, I already have weapon, head, belt, feet and bracelet (+pants next reset).

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Has anyone ever tested the dps difference between the i190 gordian chest and the i200 eso chest poece?

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Kind of difficult to test the exact difference when there are no NIN stat weights atm, though I've read that Dervy is currently working on it. For now we have to use what's posted for other jobs, such as DRG or MNK. Using those weights there is roughly a 3 DPS increase from the 190 to the 200 piece. Not to mention that secondaries took a nosedive in value with 3.0, with WD and Main Stat being more pronounced in importance.