I think its time BRD get some loving

Bzzt. There is no debate about the role of the bard because the playerbase set the role in the form of min maxing when 2.0 came out. Our ability to give near limitless mana along with the ability to circle around all mechanics without skipping a beat along with tp song. It was an ability that strengthened the raid team so greatly with stacked bards that SE nerfed the job to where raids only utilize 1 now. The issue is how well is the bard job doing in this game. It is the most played job so we are doing better then most other jobs. If we are given more dps then we will lose our support strength which I am not willing to give up because that is how balance is done at the high end and just affects the rest of us as we are here for the ride. Bards are way stronger then other jobs right now when you equate our utility stacked against the other dps jobs. For that benefit of being able to strengthen both casters and physical dps we suffer a slight dps loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I'm commuting at the moment, so I apologize I can't reply to every part of your long winded reply. It's scaling poorly because of our weapon damage and our secondary stats are so critical (pun intended) that our main stat is being left behind.
...
I'd provide my own, but I'm currently traveling to Chicago and I won't be home for the weekend. Then again, parsers are illegal, so I don't use them ;)

---

You really don't need to show any parser data to be honest but if you want to, feel free I guess. I do know the numbers and anyway you missed the whole point of my "winded reply".
All problem you listed are a very common issues that many jobs actually have to face with itemization, SMN included is suffering from itemization as a punishing bonus with their MP issues.
But meanwhile, as BRD, you are far from being excluded from contents or less appealing for a team.
Bleh, I give up.

"Needed" =/= "Balanced", necessarily. Just sayin.

Bards should be the lowest dps of the dps-classes, but not be a whole lot, IMO. Afterall, they have the highest utility, but not by a lot.
Anyway, in a perfect world this is what I'd do (but it wont happen):

-Swiftsong has its cast time changed to instant (stopping to cast it is just counter-intuitive to the spell's purpose of getting you places quicker, and discourages use between pulls)
-Foe Requiem, Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad have their cast times reduced to 2 seconds and the damage penalty on Paeon and Ballad are changed to -10%. (would encourage more singing, and BRD would still be lowest dps of dps-classes)
-cancelling a song can now be done anytime independent of the GCD (this would encourage more active MP management, something good Bards do anyway but yeah)
-the ridiculously long animation lock on Bloodletter is slightly reduced
-the Potency of Quick Nock is reduced to 100 (currently Quick Nock spam is more TP efficient than the intended Wide Volley-RoD-QN combo. This would put WV ahead of the other AEs in potency to address this)
-the additional effect on Rain of Death is changed to a piercing resist debuff (does not stack with Disembowel) for 20 sec. (not spammable or even maintainable, but would be something useful for RoD and further encourage use of the AE combo over QN spam)

I could of course be wrong, but I still think this would leave Bard with the lowest DPS of the dps-classes, but would close the gap a bit.
I think this would just cause a lot of Bards who dont sing enough to start singing more and managing their MP better.
As long as Bard is the lowest dps of the dps-classes, it will not be desireable to stack Bards (therefore no imbalance).

The current gap right now is fine. If we allowed bards to have their dps bumped to within 5-4% dps of other jobs then the rotation of bards needs to be increased or force a bard to have a debuff to damage when moving around to compensate. The reason we are meant to be lowest is because our ceiling dps cap is also the easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs. That is why you see bards at the top of the dps parses in the 24 man raids and most dungeons.

^My thoughts exactly.

I main a BRD and even I think that others classes take priority over us in terms of who really needs some immediate help, if any at all. BRDs (truly good ones, that is) are still ridiculously desirable for a majority of game content -- especially Coil. We are not broken nor are we struggling to function. Just the opposite. We are fine as is, at least as far as current content is concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galdous

The current gap right now is fine. If we allowed bards to have their dps bumped to within 5-4% dps of other jobs then the rotation of bards needs to be increased or force a bard to have a debuff to damage when moving around to compensate. The reason we are meant to be lowest is because our ceiling dps cap is also the easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs. That is why you see bards at the top of the dps parses in the 24 man raids and most dungeons.

---

You dont balance classes around ease of play. You balance them around dps and utility.

If we balanced around ease of play, WAR would be significantly stronger than PLD. (it isn't)

Some ppl like simpler classes, and some ppl get bored with simple classes and prefer more complex ones. It's a matter of preference and one isn't inherently better than the other.
A good game offers both gameplay options, but doesnt balance class power around it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fantasy9

Thought I might jump in before others. Prepare yourself for a lot of people lashing out at you for advocating for more BRD damage. I am a BRD main and I have pretty much accepted that everyone not BRDs wants BRDs to be useless except for songs.

---

Similarly, the only people who would generally support this are bard mains who feel bad they didn't main a serious DD class and need to stroke their e-peen with a damage increase.

Bard is half dps, half support. You cannot kill off the slight DPS negation from supporting seven other people and still expect to do the same amount of damage; that's crazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

Similarly, the only people who would generally support this are bard mains who feel bad they didn't main a serious DD class and need to stroke their e-peen with a damage increase.

Bard is half dps, half support. You cannot kill off the slight DPS negation from supporting seven other people and still expect to do the same amount of damage; that's crazy.

---

Bard has just 3 support skills.
None of them ever benefit 7 people at once.

Its not half and half. If anything its like 80/20, while other dps classes are 90/10.
Bards have more utility than other dps, but not a whole lot more. They should do less dps than other dps-classes, but not a whole lot less.

Ease or difficulty of play is besides the point. BRD doesn't need any kind of tweaks at the moment. There are some changes that could be made to BRD that would be convenient for quality of life or necessary for completion of future content. But BRD's output in terms of optimal dps or utility, for the role they're meant to serve, is not lacking right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

Bard has just 3 support skills.
None of them ever benefit 7 people at once.

Its not half and half. If anything its like 80/20, while other dps classes are 90/10.
Bards have more utility than other dps, but not a whole lot more. They should do less dps than other dps-classes, but not a whole lot less.

---

They don't do a whole lot less. I have seen the numbers and I've read through much of this thread; there isn't a single justifiable reason to buff bard other than "I want to do more damage."

People need to stop looking at damage numbers from Dragoon, Monk, and Ninja and think, "Damn, I should be doing those numbers, or very close to them!" because you shouldn't. That's not taking into account the myriad number of benefits that being a bard provides over being a base melee, which includes
-Being more able to support party members
-Able to move around attack at no cost to overall DPS output
-No positionals required whatsoever
-No confusing or difficult rotation to master

All of the other DPS classes do so much more damage because they require these things. Bard, however, does not. And not only does Bard not require positionals or a heavy-set rotation, it has the ability to support others en masse. The second you move away from a boss as a melee, you lose DPS. Similarly, mages get interrupted and can't move and attack (outside applying simple DoTs and scathe).

Bard is fluid and easy to manage and provides a wealth of abilities and support for other classes. The fact that nearly every bard main in this thread is complaining about their DPS output tells me that they either need to start playing better or start playing a different class. There is nothing wrong with Bard, pure and simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galdous

easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs.

---

lol a lot of our bis stuff you have to craft/buy and then pentameld on top of that it's fucking 110 stuff. there is a problem with bards. it's a joke that people call it support still and it's a joke that people call it the easiest class. every bard i've known that called it an easy class did terrible damage, was terrible at support and just a terrible bard overall. we started off as a pure damage class and then was forced into some joke of a support class that really only has 3 songs (a song for slightly increasing speed doesn't not count as support. especially since it comes off the moment you're targeted). rain of death still has that stupid accuracy buff which nobody every needs. they do need love but people that aren't monk's or ninja's hate them because bards are in higher demand than they are. so stupid. instead of being mad that your class isn't being as wanted as another how about wanting equal treatment for all classes and not have certain class get the shaft.

Tis a problem with gear and not bards. I am all for fixing spell speed into something worthwhile but the argument about how people will only want one bard no others is a silly retort. I do not know of many statics that want multiple of each job. Every job has a very high attendance in coils at this moment minus summoner. Bard does not need any buffs nor do we need any changes. Having a 3 second cast time on our song is the only time we have to worry about not having to have 100% dps upkeep right now in the game. 10 seconds out of 4-5 minutes sure as heck beats every other caster and melee in the game. People cannot compare bards to other jobs because we are the only mobile dps with no hard cast time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fantasy9

Thought I might jump in before others. Prepare yourself for a lot of people lashing out at you for advocating for more BRD damage. I am a BRD main and I have pretty much accepted that everyone not BRDs wants BRDs to be useless except for songs.

---

Time myst have changed. Most of us BRDs still get crap from people if we're last on the dps list. I guess the confuse damage over time with burst damage per second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denver_Max

If Machinist has any sort of support abilities similar to what Bards have, Bards will be thrown by the wayside. There is not enough use for bards in farmable content, since as soon as everyone knows a fight well enough not to make mistakes, there is no use for mana song, or tp song, and more dps is prized over the ability to regen things that can already be regened. Bards should be at able to do close to the amount of DPS that other dps classes can offer. 3 Support abilities do not warrant a significant DPS loss.

---

not true at all. bard/mage is still the preferred farming set up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izsha

#OfficialForumLogic.

---

I get out DPSd by bards so they're cool getting their WD nerfed again in 2.4

#OfficialForumLogic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galdous

The current gap right now is fine. If we allowed bards to have their dps bumped to within 5-4% dps of other jobs then the rotation of bards needs to be increased or force a bard to have a debuff to damage when moving around to compensate. The reason we are meant to be lowest is because our ceiling dps cap is also the easiest to achieve which is higher then most floor dps of other jobs. That is why you see bards at the top of the dps parses in the 24 man raids and most dungeons.

---

So just because other people can't play their class (get out DPS'd) by a bard, you feel the need to nerf it even more?
This is exactly what happened with poor Ninja when all the MNKs complained

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

Similarly, the only people who would generally support this are bard mains who feel bad they didn't main a serious DD class and need to stroke their e-peen with a damage increase.

Bard is half dps, half support. You cannot kill off the slight DPS negation from supporting seven other people and still expect to do the same amount of damage; that's crazy.

---

We support 4 other people with Paeon and casters with foes. Thats it.
Other classes have awesome support skills too. Multiple ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

You dont balance classes around ease of play. You balance them around dps and utility.

---

Really?

If all the DPS classes in the game had the same damage output and utility everyone and their mother would play Bard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denver_Max

If Machinist has any sort of support abilities similar to what Bards have, Bards will be thrown by the wayside.

---

By this logic PLD, WAR, WHM and SCH all need to be buffed or they'll also be thrown by the wayside. It's inevitable that people will flcok to the new jobs once the expansion is released. The only real way to prevent that is to make the new jobs suck/not fun to play with.

If Machinist is as mobile as Bard it's very likely that they'll have the same damage output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

Really?

If all the DPS classes in the game had the same damage output and utility everyone and their mother would play Bard.

---

I was clearly NOT saying all DPS classes should have the same damage output.

And no, they wouldnt all play bard. Some people prefer more complex jobs simply for their complexity. Others play a Job because they like how it looks.
Take the 2 tanks for example: PLD is much simpler to play and the 2 jobs have fairly equal tanking ability. But plenty of people play WAR, and not just because WAR can do slightly more dps while tanking (they do slightly less dps as OT btw)


Complexity is a gamelplay issue, not a power issue. Making balance decisions based on a Job being less complex is like making balance decisions based on a Job looking cooler. Its a personal preference issue not a balance issue.

Read through eight pages and have come to the conclusion only BRDs and WHMs advocate for BRD buff of some kind.... I know for sure I wouldn't mind a buff of some kind but I am only speaking from a Non-Coil Runner standpoint. In non-coil dungeons we do need a buff because the times where we need to sing are almost non-existent unless the healer or DPS is very bad at MP/TP management. Also, majority of content in this game is 4man dungeons. I have noticed that if you have a BRD in a four-man who is geared enough to make it into the dungeon do crap for damage. More times than none when I do a 4man as a healer or other dos job and not go as BRD, the DPS is really bad because there is a big DPS drop if you are not uber-geared. For example, my 89 DRG does way more overall damage than my 113 BRD. I am sorry but that is in balance if I ever saw one. AS I HAVE SAID AT BEGINNING: I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR COIL, ONLY 4MAN CONTENT.

Bards are fine. Best utility and best mobility. We do not have to be the best in damage as well. It annoys me that other bards feel selfish enough that they should be better at this game then other jobs for some odd reason. We have already seen what happens when bards had the power they did in 2.0. Bards are more then fine we are border line OP right now. If our dps falls behind so far in Heavensward then SE will do something about it. Until then there are several other jobs you can enjoy if the dps is not to your liking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galdous

Bards are fine. Best utility and best mobility. We do not have to be the best in damage as well. It annoys me that other bards feel selfish enough that they should be better at this game then other jobs for some odd reason. We have already seen what happens when bards had the power they did in 2.0. Bards are more then fine we are border line OP right now. If our dps falls behind so far in Heavensward then SE will do something about it. Until then there are several other jobs you can enjoy if the dps is not to your liking.

---

Quote one person who has said that we BRDs should be better than any other DPS jobs? Everyone in this thread advocating for BRD buff is only asking for DPS close to other DPS jobs because right now we are almost worse than SMNs who don't use Ifrit-Egi.

I only want two things for Bard;

• A built in form of MP recovery similar to Paladins Riot Blade combo. I would much rather have a weak combo that sustains my MP for Songs for longer than have that -20% damage on two of them. It would mean a good Bard can push DPS while still maintaining Songs, while a bad one would have to focus purely on the weak combo for MP, and as usual the terrible Bards wouldn't be doing Songs at all.
  
• Songs to work off a Mudra style system to give greater variety. Heck, they've already broken the static number of skills per Job with Stoneskin II and Ninja in general, just give Bard two Songs every quest or something... Lack of Song variety is my biggest issue with Bard.

Our FCoB BRD refusing to sing anything but Foe's lol. He also parses first in T12 and sometimes T13.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

I was clearly NOT saying all DPS classes should have the same damage output.

---

Yet that was the logical conclusion of your statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

And no, they wouldnt all play bard. Some people prefer more complex jobs simply for their complexity. Others play a Job because they like how it looks.
Take the 2 tanks for example: PLD is much simpler to play and the 2 jobs have fairly equal tanking ability. But plenty of people play WAR, and not just because WAR can do slightly more dps while tanking (they do slightly less dps as OT btw)


Complexity is a gamelplay issue, not a power issue. Making balance decisions based on a Job being less complex is like making balance decisions based on a Job looking cooler. Its a personal preference issue not a balance issue.

---

Yes, there would always be people playing every job, but you're kidding yourself if you think most of the playerbase wouldn't flock to Bard if it's DPS/Utility were made on par with the rest of the DPS.

I like how the people that are against whatever we are suggesting (which mind you isnt much) keep saying we want to be top dps, or that we have tons of support but when you look at other classes abilities they have almost the same amount.

Monk -- Mantra and Dragon Kick
Dragoon -- Piercing buff
Ninja -- Trick atk and goad
BLM -- Apoc Virus
Smn -- Raise Virus

So tell me exactly, how is our support worth more than the classes listed above? Its mana and tp regen and foe's which is only good for casters and ninja.

Bards arent asking to be on par with mnk/nin/drg. We are asking for our WD to start scaling properly, or to reduce/remove the debuff from singing songs. There is absolutely 0 reason to have the debuff on songs.

I havent seen one person give a single reason to have the debuffs on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doctor-

The game is at a point where at least in FCOB, having a BRD is pretty much a must, singing for TP has become quite the necessity, I know nothing will probably get changed but if I could suggest something. Decrease the damage penalty from Paeon and Mage's Ballad by at least 10%, 20% is very harsh at this stage in the game.

---

"This already gets used all the time, so I think you should make it even more powerful." Seriously? That makes no sense whatsoever. You want huge numbers? Give up that guaranteed raid slot and roll melee or BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoubleD

lolwut

---

I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that wants bards to be "further nerf'd" but seriously why would they increase damage (or rather decrease the damage penalty on certain abilities) for a class that already basically has a guaranteed slot in raids because of their support skills? It makes no sense whatsoever. Before you get started on what a noob I must be, I don't even have a dog in the DPS fight (tank main here). Bards have some hugely powerful abilities. If you wanna crank out huge numbers, play another DPS class and have fun competing for static slots.

Mindless zombies, stop saying bards want to be top DPS. Every bard posting here never said that. We're worried that this gap is going to keep on playing.

Look, we fell even further behind in 2.4. That is a fact. What was neccessary about that.

And once again, I dont care if bard is out DPSing any of your static. That means they gotta play better. Same skill, same gear every other class should and do kill dwawf bards.

I love how people base balances off of Coil when the majority of players don't do coil or if they do, it is after it gets put on DF and gets echo. Just because a minority does coil as it comes out does not mean you are the be all, end all of balance info. Every other piece of content sees BRDs too weak and definitely not required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fantasy9

I love how people base balances off of Coil when the majority of players don't do coil or if they do, it is after it gets put on DF and gets echo. Just because a minority does coil as it comes out does not mean you are the be all, end all of balance info. Every other piece of content sees BRDs too weak and definitely not required.

---

"People" aren't basing the balances off Coil here. The OP started off mentioning it. I dunno who you're talking to that thinks bards are weak; I certainly don't mind having a good one for any content no matter what class I'm playing.

If you are not basing it off coils then I can go on and tell you bards are for the most part top dps then. Every WOD raid and dungeon I am in bards are always top every time. Bards are easier to play and a superior dps for casual players who do not want to master the nuances what make the other jobs stronger dps. If bards are given a dps boost then mobility has to be nerfed hard or a more complicated rotation.

No matter what theories people come out with it does not work because we went through this in 2.0. Bards were above all other dps jobs when our dps was boosted. Your proof that bards do not need buffs are pretty blatant if you log in and see the 50 bards standing around you vs every other job. Bards are so overplayed for a reason. Because they perform at the higher dps echelon with less skill required and have high mobility for having 90% of the dps of the other jobs. Please SE do not make us more OP then we already are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

They don't do a whole lot less. I have seen the numbers and I've read through much of this thread; there isn't a single justifiable reason to buff bard other than "I want to do more damage."

People need to stop looking at damage numbers from Dragoon, Monk, and Ninja and think, "Damn, I should be doing those numbers, or very close to them!" because you shouldn't. That's not taking into account the myriad number of benefits that being a bard provides over being a base melee, which includes
-Being more able to support party members
-Able to move around attack at no cost to overall DPS output
-No positionals required whatsoever
-No confusing or difficult rotation to master

All of the other DPS classes do so much more damage because they require these things. Bard, however, does not. And not only does Bard not require positionals or a heavy-set rotation, it has the ability to support others en masse. The second you move away from a boss as a melee, you lose DPS. Similarly, mages get interrupted and can't move and attack (outside applying simple DoTs and scathe).

Bard is fluid and easy to manage and provides a wealth of abilities and support for other classes. The fact that nearly every bard main in this thread is complaining about their DPS output tells me that they either need to start playing better or start playing a different class. There is nothing wrong with Bard, pure and simple.

---

I reiterate because every BRD main in favor of this seems to like ignoring it because of MUH DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoubleD

We support 4 other people with Paeon and casters with foes. Thats it.
Other classes have awesome support skills too. Multiple ones.

---

And Mage's Ballad. And Swift.
And Battle Voice. 80% of your job abilities are pure support. Only one is a DPS action.

Other classes, however, are nowhere near this. Also, see above.

More damage on Bard would still leave us with shit damage and not help anyone. We already have damage boost skills for a reason, so we can still hold up in DPS checks. The real problem is that while not singing songs we're just wasted space. What we really need is more ways to support the team in the form of songs or even some other types of supportive skills that allow us to feel valued all the time, not just some of the time. Instead of asking for damage brainstorm some unique and interesting supportive mechanics or things that would help ourselves to fulfill that role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

---

That is why Parses have never and never will be a full true and accurate representation to what someone brings to the party. That the damage that has been boosted by the BRD shows on a parser for the BRD is irrelevant and shows on edimensional thinking inregards to what they bring to the party. No BRD or no Paeons means no increase in the overall parties damage. That is what support abilities do as opposed to self buffs.

So yes it is yours, your the reason why the overall party DPS increased. Because with out it there is no DPS increase

every bard topic gets stupid. people against bards are against everything bard related and don't even bother quoting the good ideas. just come in say the usual "lol no! bards are so op omg" and don't read anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fantasy9

I love how people base balances off of Coil when the majority of players don't do coil or if they do, it is after it gets put on DF and gets echo. Just because a minority does coil as it comes out does not mean you are the be all, end all of balance info. Every other piece of content sees BRDs too weak and definitely not required.

---

You should not need to be doing coil to see why job balance should be based off of the hardest content in the game. If a job is not excluded from the most challenging content (and really pretty much the only content party composition is given much consideration), it is going to be viable for everything else.

You say that bards are not required for any other piece of content and while I wouldn't disagree this is indicative of nothing, as that is an equally valid statement about every other job. You can clear just about everything with any combination of jobs in your dps, healer, and tank spots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhais

You say that bards are not required for any other piece of content and while I wouldn't disagree this is indicative of nothing, as that is an equally valid statement about every other job. You can clear just about everything with any combination of jobs in your dps, healer, and tank spots.

---

Quoted for emphasis and truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhais

You should not need to be doing coil to see why job balance should be based off of the hardest content in the game. If a job is not excluded from the most challenging content (and really pretty much the only content party composition is given much consideration), it is going to be viable for everything else.

You say that bards are not required for any other piece of content and while I wouldn't disagree this is indicative of nothing, as that is an equally valid statement about every other job. You can clear just about everything with any combination of jobs in your dps, healer, and tank spots.

---

We've cleared a lot of 4 peep stuff with tank, 1 DPS and 2x SCHs ^_^ We've even done Castrum and AK (normal) with 8 and 4 BLMs! ^_^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

And Mage's Ballad. And Swift.
And Battle Voice. 80% of your job abilities are pure support. Only one is a DPS action.

Other classes, however, are nowhere near this. Also, see above.

---

what about BLACK MAGES?

convert : utility
Apocatastasis : utility
manawall : utility
freeze: spell that never gets used...useless
flare : spell used only on aoe/burst