In-Game Parser.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

So. Up until now I've been against parsers. My argument has been completely wrong. COMPLETELY WRONG!

There is nothing wrong with a parser. It's a glorified calculator that retrieves data from the battle log that is already there. It simplifies it and puts it into a read out that people can understand.

The problem lies with the person who uses it, not the tool itself.

A parser is like a hammer.
Both are tools. - A hammer is used to build. A parser is used to read out numbers.
Both have constructive uses. - A hammer can help build a home. A parser can help improve where a player is weak in their rotation.
Both can cause harm. - A hammer can be used to bludgeon someone to death. A parser can be used to call out weak chains in parties in a malicious manner.

Both are tools, it depends on the wielder of these tools to determine their overall effect and outcome.

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If this is not sarcasm, then welcome to this side of the argument.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

But you have to use your example as a double edge sword. Having a parser like what pc players have will result in even more alienation, lets be honest. Like you said, right now we have it based on ilvl and achievement and even gil amounts. What do you think will actually happen once you start adding another set of numbers to judge people by? What needs to happen is that people that are calling for parser have to put their heads together and think of a way that gets them the parser and doesn't allow the player base to feel discriminated against/ picked on. Because believe it or not, if a majority of the casual players leave this game because of the few elites that are pushing for this, the game will fail. have to cater to the masses.

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I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

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Thank you. It is funny how people think keeping everyone in the dark and ignorant enhances and improves the quality of the community... /sigh

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Originally Posted by Zeful

This paragraph quite clearly shows why implementing a parser is not worth Yoshi's time. The rotation exists, but it's existence has no real impact on endgame fights due to mechanics; which makes the argument that a player must learn it blindly (and make no bones about it that's exactly what you are advocating, as your reasoning for learning it can be summed up as "for it's own sake") actively harmful to a player's performance because there's no context as to why. Even in your post you fail to point out why the concept of the rotation even exists within the context of the fight.

It's easy though. The rotation shows how a Job's abilities synergize, and how each one affects the other positively to use the whole potential the class provides. It's a concrete example of the value of each move.

And how much "betterment" is enough to have succeeded? No, "betterment" cannot be the end-goal of adding a parser, as that only has meaning in the transition. While perfection is unreasonable to expect, it is a fully formed idea that has concrete meaning within the context of the game and the raiding player base's expectation therein.

What about the other elements of social engineering? Adding a parser is all well and good, but you'll find that it'll have little effect if there's no reason to use it. So why not add reward mechanisms for actual excellence. Take the upgrade items like Oil of Time/Carboncoat out of the loot tables for all new content and only reward them to players that achieve performance milestones. There's now a connection between your performance and your progression.

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Like the poster you were quoting said, a rotation past your opener is effectively a priority system. Understanding this priority system at the very least, will have you at baseline competence, and will get you through most non-current-raid content. It's the literal starting point as a DPS (let's call it crawling). Intermediate skills would be refining your opener to be optimal, not clipping DoT's, and understanding off GCD's and how to weave them in. Advanced would be things like when to multi-DoT, when to eat mechanics for more damage output, and making fight-by-fight specific changes to your rotation to do more damage.

Not understanding your rotation at the very least, makes raids/trials more difficult experiences than they need to be. In a game where others depend on you in order to succeed, it's irresponsible, and unfair to come to content and waste their time. That's regardless of the difficulty. That is to say...Don't go in someone's pony farm party if you're going to make it take 2 minutes longer due to your inability to hold your own weight.

Mechanics don't invalidate your rotation, they punish you for not understanding it. If you have to stop DPS for 5 seconds, and your buff is about to run out, but you continue your combo anyway when you're done with the mechanic, you're losing a pretty big chunk of damage. Things like this lead to difficulties in a fight. Making a fight more stressful due to a personal decision to stay uninformed (essentially, is what you're saying) is again, pretty unfair. This is not only your game, or your experience, it's other people's time.

As for re-working rewards to be performance based... that's more of a vicious idea than an in-game, personal parser. It not only promotes, but rewards people for doing whatever they can (mechanics be damned) to get high numbers. This is different from the idea of striving to be better because of personal reasons, or because you want to have healthy competition, or to hold your own weight. Also, assuming everyone is performing at 100% efficiency, some Jobs are known to be outliers (basically looking at MNK before NIN release/DRG buff) and would always get the reward. Let's assume that every class did the same damage. With certain end-game fights having RNG mechanics that force you to stop DPS, you'd be at the mercy of the game sometimes. It's a bad idea.

I have faith that this dev team, if no other, has the ability to implement a personal parser, no matter how thinly veiled, in a positive way. Not only in a positive way, but in a way that shows a player they can improve, and are doing well. Tutorials in this game are the next logical step, and if not now, then I don't see when they'd ever do it.
There's large importance to DPS, and I don't see that changing in the future. I don't see them making any non-story content any easier, and the further the game progresses and evolves, the less they're worried about the 'new' or 'uninitiated' player.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

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But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output.

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The only situation where you could possibly have this occur with DPS roles in a Second or Final Coil situation is a Bard refusing to sing. On top of this, all recent (T10+) content basically expects all players to be DPSing so hard that the only thing keeping them below their 100% uptime training dummy DPS is the boss occasionally turning invincible or moving out of range. Failing a mechanic causes you to die, dying causes your DPS to go down, so players looking to "max their DPS" will do whatever it takes to stay alive.

Outside of these fights that require near-perfect DPS peformance? There are no community gating tools that keep players from participating. Crystal Tower, story Trials, Dungeons, et al don't have scads of party finders saying "clear or kick", and they won't gain scads of players kicking people over their DPS all of a sudden. Even then, there's few situations where coping with a mechanic should meaningfully slow your DPS. You'll see a 10-20% decrease at worst, and that's usually due to super outdated stuff dying or triggering mechanics so fast nobody's job makes sense any more.

In fact, the only fight I can think of where "DPS focusing on maxing their numbers" would cause someone to 'fail' at a role is Moggle Mog EX. The rest of the time, ignoring a mechanic to burn is asking to die, which makes your DPS worse.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

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A parser is not a sole consideration for proper play. But it is a meaningful metric for which we do not have available and that it is why it is being asked for.

As for your comment about parsers leading to improper play, most high end successful raid groups use them and well... I doubt we are arguing that they don't know how to play their jobs right?

People making judgement calls on uninformed half assumptions as we are forced to do today is at least equally damning to the community as a whole. Again I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye but I cannot in my right mind argue for an ignorant and uninformed player base.

There have been suggestions players can opt to share their data or not that are only applicable to preformed parties and I would be all for that to allow for both play styles. (this would not fix the divide)

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Yoshi P himself said this would never be in the game as it would seem like SE is justifying chastising someone based on numbers. I'm all for parsers in game, but when the man says it'll never happen, it's never going to happen. He didn't even leave it open ended for a future possibility.

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Nothing is final. He can just do something which he said they'll not do before.

Unlikely? Yes.
Never? No.

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

Nothing is final. He can just do something which he said they'll not do before.

Unlikely? Yes.
Never? No.

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And hopefully it'll stay VERY unlikely. We already have parsers we can use. For those on consoles, they have friends who use PCs that can parse them if they so choose.

MY concern is people wanting the devs to steer away from developing useful content that is for the game itself to develop something that we already have access to via other means. I'd rather the Devs keep making other new content for us and just let us use the tools we already have access to. It's already been proven time and again in this thread that EVERYONE already has access to parsing. People choose what platform they want to game on - if you choose to use a console and not a PC, then you choose to have your parsing done by the many PC friends you have in your FC that have PCs. Unless, of course, you are in that FC I keep seeing running around that only invites PS4 players. Talk about limiting yourselves there :)

I guess what im trying to get at is two things:#1 Was this game made with Parsing in mind, especially from a third party program? And #2, Can this game be enjoyed, completed without this program. See the way i see it its like saying "hey, developers should take a program that's essentially a cheat and add it to their game so we can play their game better." What?!

If all of a sudden, SE made it so you cant gather that so called "needed" data to play the game, how many of you asking for it are gonna quit, stop playing or cry that its too hard? I agree that its really not needed. If it was, it would be in the game for all players, not just for a bunch of pc users who are elitist. Im sorry, this game is not a job. its a game. If i want to maximize my output, i will practice using what i have in the game. But as it is now, its better left alone. It forces players to get used to playing with each other and learning with each other instead of looking at some data and saying "Hey, you are not hitting your numbers." You guys make it sound like its a job. Its supposed to be fun.

I can say with confidence that groups that are successfully clearing FCoB most likely have at least one player parsing in their group.

Like it or not, with the amount of DPS checks found in endgame (and it's even creeping into "casual" encounters - see: Odin), parsers are a necessity. They are a tool. Something that collects and displays data.

The people that are against information, especially information that's been readily available to one platform since the game has launched is just mind boggling even though it's a small minority going by this thread.

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Originally Posted by Faelandaea

And hopefully it'll stay VERY unlikely. We already have parsers we can use. For those on consoles, they have friends who use PCs that can parse them if they so choose.

MY concern is people wanting the devs to steer away from developing useful content that is for the game itself to develop something that we already have access to via other means. I'd rather the Devs keep making other new content for us and just let us use the tools we already have access to. It's already been proven time and again in this thread that EVERYONE already has access to parsing. People choose what platform they want to game on - if you choose to use a console and not a PC, then you choose to have your parsing done by the many PC friends you have in your FC that have PCs. Unless, of course, you are in that FC I keep seeing running around that only invites PS4 players. Talk about limiting yourselves there :)

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The devs don't have to spend any time on making an in-house parser. They're already making the addon API public in Heavensward, so as long as players have access to the combat log then you'll start seeing player made parsers being made and thrown up.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

the biggest issue with external parsers is they use the chat log, which isnt always accurate. sometimes that log will fail to display numbers which are important for real accuracy which is why people are begging for an official one. many argue that these external parsers are fairly accurate but they can only be as accurate as the data they receive. the simulated dats is for the things they cannot get from the log like DoT spells.

I assume this is part of the reason Yoshi-P and crew are hesitant to release the API and we still don't have addons(ofcourse the addon thing could really have something to do with the PS3 memory limitations) because they don't want the makers of these external parsers to be able to get that accurate data.

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I think the biggest issue i have is their reasoning behind not adding parsers.Elitist players are going to find other reasons to be elitist. it has happened well before parsers were a thing and will continue to happen. Basically we are denying a tool because of what 1 group of people may be with it. Regardless of the fact that those same group of people would do the same thing if the tool existed or not. Will literally have no baring on the actions they take.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Like it or not, with the amount of DPS checks found in endgame (and it's even creeping into "casual" encounters - see: Odin), parsers are a necessity.

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I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

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Have fun doing Odin with people who can't meet the check because they want to "play their way" or people not meeting T8's check without full Echo.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

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It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point? It IS a necessity when it comes down to being a serious end-game player, and even as someone who's even taken a passing interest in getting into it.

Being educated about how well you're doing something is never a bad thing, and that's the root of why I don't think many pro-parser people understand the opposing arguments. It's not going to ruin anyone's fun (any more than it already does).

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Have fun doing Odin with people who can't meet the check because they want to "play their way" or people not meeting T8's check without full Echo.

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I know pleanty of players who beat the DPS checks on things without parsers. want to know how? simply going in and learning what happens when.
your agrument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point?

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this is a game, the devs expect it to be played a certain way.
comparing this to driving a car is not a good argument. it is not legal to drive a car that has no spedometer in it for one thing. try again with something that might actually convince the devs of your argument because I assure you your comparison to a car most definitely will not.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

I know pleanty of players who beat the DPS checks on things without parsers. want to know how? simply going in and learning what happens when.
your agrument is invalid.

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Anecdotal evidences are worthless. Your argument is invalid.

Fun game, isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point?

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Except some people will never improve because they see big numbers on a chain combo and literally only use that one chain with their buffs having terrible uptime but they still think they do good because big number once every so often.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Anecdotal evidences are worthless. Your argument is invalid.

Fun game, isn't it ?

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still nothing to prove that parsers are something the devs should put in.
you can keep going back and forth with examples of bad players all you want except guess what. a lot of them simply don't care to improve and no parser will help that. your examples are no better therefore your argument remains invalid.

my point is I want to see an argument that will make them think about it more than the personal parser on the striking dummies. till you give them a valid reason that will make them think they will stick to their stance.

I should make it clear that I'm not against parsers in game. I would rather not have ones that everyone can see their whole party results but then again if you can change the stance of the devs good on you.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

still nothing to prove that parsers are something the devs should put in.
you can keep going back and forth with examples of bad players all you want except guess what. a lot of them simply don't care to improve and no parser will help that. your examples are no better therefore your argument remains invalid.

my point is I want to see an argument that will make them think about it more than the personal parser on the striking dummies. till you give them a valid reason that will make them think they will stick to their stance.

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There are plenty who do want to and want tools to help them. The certain special snowflakes who don't want to improve (which is their problem, not ours) shouldn't deny us these tools so that they can force their mediocrity upon us while they get carried from willingly not pulling their weight.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

this is a game, the devs expect it to be played a certain way.
comparing this to driving a car is not a good argument. it is not legal to drive a car that has no spedometer in it for one thing. try again with something that might actually convince the devs of your argument because I assure you your comparison to a car most definitely will not.

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The example holds weight simply because I'm not debating legality, I'm talking about being informed, or lack of information. It's pretty much wording at that point. I could literally just say, "You could do x activity without x meter and you could probably judge the information pretty well. However without x meter you might possibly mess up in x way." It's not exclusive to a speedometer, or parsing, but it means the same thing, regardless of legality. You can do well, but if you don't have a precise readout on what you're doing, you're blindly hoping that you're doing the right thing.

This is important in the end-game environment because there ARE strict checks, and the difference between pushing a phase could just be switching up your rotation, or using a poison pot, or replacing a member. Knowing the actual variable which changed to bring about success is entirely ambiguous without a parser, though. You could push a phase, but not know why. You could be doing what you consider to be your 'best' rotation, but not meet the enrage timer. Could have been another player doing more DPS that pushed your phase. Could have been your poison pot. Could have been a weird amount of crits. If you're not meeting enrage timers, maybe it wasn't you doing poorly. Maybe another member was. Accountability is important, if you intend on being a part of end-game fights. Empathy is too, because your enjoyment is important, but when you're with 7 other people, there's is no less important than yours. Don't waste time. Don't stay uninformed because, "It's worked for me in the past." There's no good reason to be uninformed.

All of this still means the same thing for the pro-parse argument- Having more information does NOT hurt you. It's the information in the wrong hands, that does.

None of this changes the argument against having a parser in-game. The only adverse, or negative thing that it would bring in implementation, is a more widely available tool that people already use. There's no argument against keeping parsers out of game, other than, "I don't want the possibility of criticism". They can't protect people from something as vague as that, by with-holding something like a parser.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There are plenty who do want to and want tools to help them. The certain special snowflakes who don't want to improve (which is their problem, not ours) shouldn't deny us these tools so that they can force their mediocrity upon us while they get carried from willingly not pulling their weight.

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while I agree with you, that argument is the one that was used to convince them for the striking dummy personal.
you will need better for the official parser argument. because it is not the players who are denying you it is the devs.
you will need to convince them that the good does infact outweigh the bad.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

All of this still means the same thing for the pro-parse argument- Having more information does NOT hurt you. It's the information in the wrong hands, that does.

None of this changes the argument against having a parser in-game. The only adverse, or negative thing that it would bring in implementation, is a more widely available tool that people already use. There's no argument against keeping parsers out of game, other than, "I don't want the possibility of criticism". They can't protect people from something as vague as that, by with-holding something like a parser.

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despite your argument which I agree with they will still argue that allowing them or making an official one makes it look like they are promoting the bad bahavior of impatient people who shouldnt have these parsers. you know the ones that will use the information to tell people they suck rather than try to give them tips to improve? yeah that type. those are the arguments against the parsers.

I would love to see tools like these in the hands of helpful friendly people. but the impatient jerks that only care about themselves I hate the idea of seeing these kind of tools in their hands

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

despite your argument which I agree with they will still argue that allowing them or making an official one makes it look like they are promoting the bad bahavior of impatient people who shouldnt have these parsers. you know the ones that will use the information to tell people they suck rather than try to give them tips to improve? yeah that type. those are the arguments against the parsers.

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That's an argument against players who are jerks. This is going to sound terribly American, but this is like saying "Guns kill people", or at least it's a similar argument. Parsers aren't hurting players, the only purpose they serve is as a tool for spitting out information. How that information is used is up to the user. The user's words, criticism, or poor use of that information is what people don't like. I think a lot of people refuse to understand that, and instead, are more content with arguing that the root of the problem is the parser. It's not.

Let me tell you somethin' about some of those crazy people you see on the news. If they intended on murdering someone, and didn't have a gun, they'd probably have done it witha knife. If they don't have a knife, they'll use a rock, if they can't use a rock, they'll use their hands. They're just crazy. People who are jerks are gonna be jerks. No parser? They'll just find more inventive ways to make fun of you, it's not a new concept. People who wanna start stuff will do it in any way they can.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

That's an argument against players who are jerks. This is going to sound terribly American, but this is like saying "Guns kill people", or at least it's a similar argument. Parsers aren't hurting players, the only purpose they serve is as a tool for spitting out information. How that information is used is up to the user. The user's words, criticism, or poor use of that information is what people don't like. I think a lot of people refuse to understand that, and instead, are more content with arguing that the root of the problem is the parser. It's not.

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oh I agree with you, I do. the logic behind not having an official one is flawed but like it or not it's their game and their rules so we have to convince them.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

oh I agree with you, I do. the logic behind not having an official one is flawed but like it or not it's their game and their rules so we have to convince them.

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How's a thread with around 10 thousand views, and over 200 replies, with majority of everyone here agreeing that parsers should be in game for convincing?

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Originally Posted by Slappah

How's a thread with around 10 thousand views, and over 200 replies, with majority of everyone here agreeing that parsers should be in game for convincing?

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that wont convince them that the good will outweigh the bad, that is what they need to be convinced of.

they already know that quite a lot of people want an official parser. they have gone as far as to say they know people are using them but not to mention that they are using them within the game or in the forums. my guess is their "don't mention the use of them" is in hopes that it will stifle some of the bad behavior

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

that wont convince them that the good will outweigh the bad, that is what they need to be convinced of. they already know that quite a lot of people want an official parser.

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They already know the good outweighs the bad. If they're worth their salt as developers, they already know how useful that information can be. They have a battle log, so that's (some) proof of that. They (inevitably) see when the world first clear videos blatantly showcase a HUGE parser on the screen.

Having a parser helped people realize that MNK was a high outlier of DPS for some time. It helped people realize that the gap between DRG damage floors and ceilings were insanely large, and that there were buffs that needed to bring them more inline with MNK and NIN. When the community knows more about the game, it helps them make more informed assessments about balance. This goes right back to the developers, and in turn makes the game even better when everyone's happy that their Job performs on viable, or comparable levels to others. You can't just assume that balance is okay. You can't assume that your party is doing fine with damage, and then realize at 13 minutes, 1 minute before enrage, that you could have all been using poison pots and won instead of losing. You can strive, and work at becoming better with a parser. You can only hope that you're doing better without one.

There's so much good that parsers bring to the game, and there's only one negative side effect, that is already happening, and happens on much worse levels. Hunts are toxic as all hell, literally will get you blacklisted, and brings out the WORST in people. Hey, that content is fine, though. PF requirements might as well be a pre-party screening for DPS potential. It systematically allows players to alienate others by perceived damage output (with iLvl requirements), or flat out Job discrimination. The argument they use against parsers in game hardly makes sense, when you consider things like this.

DPS checks are like tug of war.

8 People against 1 big man. If all 8 people are pulling, you can pull that big man into the mud. However that big man is strong and can pull all of you, however if everyone pulls their own weight you can resist the pull and manage to pull back twice as hard. That's what a DPS check is, it's a tug of war between DPS and the boss and if you can't do that as a group, then you're going to fail. A parser is nothing more than a tool to spot a weak chain. You cannot blame a parser for how it is used, simply because it is a in itself a glorified calculator. You can however blame the approach made towards the effort to help someone improve their DPS. It's the attitude that matters when you become the bearer of bad news.

Raid Leader Don: Hey. Great job tonight guys, we're gonna however have to try harder. We keep failing the DPS check. Why is that? :confused: Let's take a look at the data here and see what we can find.

The raid leader goes though the parsing information.

Raid Leader Don: Amy. Good job on Monk. You were top DPS! Pulling 430
Amy: :D
Raider Leader Don: Anthony, excellent job on Summoner. Pulling in at 398
Anthony: Hell yeah! :cool:
Raid Leader Don: Jackson. You were a bit low tonight, but you still did good as Bard tonight, that song really helped us though,336. Could do for improvement but still good job.
Jackson: Alright. I'll have to work on my rotation and dodging mechanics. I did die so that's my fault, but I can fix it.
Raid Leader Don: Maggie...honey. You were the lowest DPS tonight. What do you think you're doing wrong in your rotation? Your Dragoon did so well last raid, but right now your only clocking in at 297.
Maggie: I'm not sure. I think when Blood for Blood is up and I died, I lost DPS that much is for sure. But I think my rotational is off during some of the mechanics so I lost DPS as well. Sorry I'll work with Jackson next week and we can practice. That sound cool Jackson?
Jackson: Sure. Sounds good to me.
Raid Leader Don: Awesome! Good job tonight guys, let's shoot for improvement next week. Try to cap your Tomes and get a piece in if you can, that'll help too.

This is the kind of motivation a parser can bring if used correctly. There are a number of reasons "why" DPS numbers CAN be low and hold a group back, but that is where a parser is used. It is used to figure out what is going wrong, whether it be mechanics, rotation issues or gear not being up to par in terms of BiS. All it does is take what is already there in the Battle Log and cuts out all the fluff and gives the raw numbers. So if you want to really be technical, the game "has" a built in parser called your Battle Log. You can sift through it, pull out all the numbers and crunch them. Sure it will take you awhile, but it's the same thing as using a parser, except the Battle Log tells you everything that happens, and a parser just simplifies it for you to read. Nothing more nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Long post

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Parser isn't just for dps. It can also be used to analyze boss moves, tanks and healers too. I think I made a post listing various example somewhere in this forum. Let me check...

Here:

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Originally Posted by Gardes

You can check almost anything. Our OT was having trouble taking the adds in phase 3 of t9 and we weren't sure why. He just keeps failing at it and someone else looked around in the parser and turns out he's missing quite a bit. We just assumed that everyone would already know what their accuracy needed to be at but apparently he didn't. Oh hey, guess how we know our acc limits? Some early birds tested them for us! We're now farming t9 with the same method and having no problems with adds.

Another example, turn 9's phase 4 where the boss starts using a multi-hit move that can do a total damage of more than the tank's hp. As the tank I died to it and people start wondering if my mitigation was late or in the wrong order and whether I should switch them around because the attack alternates in damage strength against me. I was sure that I did it perfectly and I didn't get myself killed. Someone else looked around in the parser again and I was right because the damage I'm taking from claws was minimal from all of them and it couldn't have killed me. After an even closer look, it was found out that I got killed by someone's thunder debuff and I didn't need to change my play style.

Another example! Back in turn 8 before echo, we were reforming the group and got a new healer who has never done the turn. I personally recruited him because I used to do the 1st binding coil of bahamut as a static with him and thought he was good. We were having trouble keeping the tank alive (wasn't me at the time) and people started looking at this new whm and he was getting exasperated because he was trying to do his best and our sch started getting sarcastic with him. So again, someone else looked at the numbers and he started noticing that the sch's healing numbers are suspiciously low considering he is much better geared than whm (half when he has i110 book and the whm has i90 zenith). We didn't tell this to any of the healers because we weren't sure if this is normal. Shortly after the sch left due to irl schedules (for real) and we tried another sch and we suddenly don't have anymore problems and we looked at the numbers again. The new sch is also better geared and more experienced at turn 8 and his healing numbers are higher by a little bit than the whm so we now know it was the previous sch slacking and blaming the other healer. But I suppose that's water under the bridge but at least we found out why.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

The devs don't have to spend any time on making an in-house parser. They're already making the addon API public in Heavensward, so as long as players have access to the combat log then you'll start seeing player made parsers being made and thrown up.

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So . . . Wait . . . If that's been confirmed then what's the point of this thread? Debate or not the question was if we'll have an in game solution for parsing. It seems there's the answer right there.

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Originally Posted by Faelandaea

So . . . Wait . . . If that's been confirmed then what's the point of this thread? Debate or not the question was if we'll have an in game solution for parsing. It seems there's the answer right there.

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Addons have been promised before ARR launched. IIRC it was promised to be launched at 2.1 or something like that. Then it just keeps getting delayed and delayed until most people just forget and they stopped giving dates. Every single time they mention they're pretty much done and just tweaking and testing. Tweaking what, I wonder? I can't help but wonder that they're trying their hardest to neuter their add-on capability so that people cant make parsers out of it because yoship is that scared of parsers.

Tell me what is a parser going to do for you?
You going to tell a person what to do, how to do their job and if they tell you no and stop telling them how to play and you begin to down play them and decide to kick.

Because that will happen and of course they'll report and GM for it and what then you'll get GM jailed and warned not to do it again.
But of course you will and try to be nicer about it, though you'll end up bumping into someone who doesn't like parsers and knows where this is heading and GM's you and you get temp banned for a while.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

I know I wouldn't like to hear people breathing down my neck about my damage or how I play that gets on my nerves and really people should shut their mouth and play their own damn game.
You do not pay anyones bill to make that choice for them.

So like I said whats the parser going to do for you, you see your own damage but we all know you'll use it on others and of course your big mouth would get you in trouble in the end.

I know you'll say something like so we can lower dps to fit the right monster so we don't push it to special attack faster or stuff like that but I ran into a few people with parsers and boy did they try to blast people calling everyone noobs and threaten to kick people and even new players talking crap ran into a total of 30 people since ive been playing all elites.

its probably why he says no.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Tell me what is a parser going to do for you?
You going to tell a person what to do, how to do their job and if they tell you no and stop telling them how to play and you begin to down play them and decide to kick.

I know I wouldn't like to hear people breathing down my neck about my damage or how I play that gets on my nerves and really people should shut their mouth and play their own damn game.
You do not pay anyones bill to make that choice for them.

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So what would you do then? If the position is reversed? I come into your party as a class that you know very well and we're trying to beat a hard fight and you literally see me doing the stupidest thing I can do as that class (due to ignorance). We fail over and over and the reason is pretty much me not helping the team break through a phase fast enough. Through several attempts and watching how I play, you became convinced that I am THE reason the group is failing. What are you gonna do about it?

Going by what you (and other people) fear of what people can do with a parser, you are NOT allowed to point me out as the weakest link in the party and then kick me out of the party. You are NOT allowed to silently kick me out of the party either. Anything that smells like 'elitist' behavior is not allowed. Going by what you said you hate, you are NOT allowed to tell me how to play either. Not even in a politely advising manner. The way I play is the playstyle I learned by myself and enjoy the most.

Now, I would like to point out that silently disbanding the party or making up a false excuse to disband the party is also hypocritical to the spirit of the point you (and anti parser people in general) are trying to make. It also allows me (we're still talking about the example) to continue playing in ignorance and make more parties fail over and over. I will not stop because no one will stop me and make a real (insert class) out of me, because they are not allowed to.

By the way, we're still in the same trial. You still have to finish this trial with my incompetent self, you know? NOW CARRY ME!

Also, after we timed out, you have to make a new party finder for the same trial with the requirements and tell me why I'm not allowed in your party anymore. Same rules apply.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Tell me what is a parser going to do for you?
You going to tell a person what to do, how to do their job and if they tell you no and stop telling them how to play and you begin to down play them and decide to kick.

Because that will happen and of course they'll report and GM for it and what then you'll get GM jailed and warned not to do it again.
But of course you will and try to be nicer about it, though you'll end up bumping into someone who doesn't like parsers and knows where this is heading and GM's you and you get temp banned for a while.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

I know I wouldn't like to hear people breathing down my neck about my damage or how I play that gets on my nerves and really people should shut their mouth and play their own damn game.
You do not pay anyones bill to make that choice for them.

So like I said whats the parser going to do for you, you see your own damage but we all know you'll use it on others and of course your big mouth would get you in trouble in the end.

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Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you: exhibit A.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

How's a thread with around 10 thousand views, and over 200 replies, with majority of everyone here agreeing that parsers should be in game for convincing?

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From observation in this topic alone, it's most likely because the other side is tired of hearing the counter argument of "if you don't want parsers you must be trying to hide your sucking" or some variation of that degree. Personally, I'm against anything other than a personal check dummy because regardless of what the pro-use community might think that "the abuse won't get worse" from it. It will.

What people are asking for is equal access to parsers across all platforms, not just PC. Parsers are already here and always has been since the start of the game.

How about this they implement a parser in-game, but it only works to check your own characters not others; this would allow it to exist without SE thinking people would use it to harass other players.

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

How about this they implement a parser in-game, but it only works to check your own characters not others; this would allow it to exist without SE thinking people would use it to harass other players.

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I've suggested this very same thing in countless threads that are probably long and dead now. In fact, I know one of them has for sure been deleted. I'm probably not the first person to come up with that idea either. I have yet to hear a single credible reason as to why something like this (with the ability to turn it off if you so choose) should NOT be implemented. This very idea has never been argued against by the people against having a parser built in game. At least not that I've seen. They always skip over this.

The worst thing about an accredited parser is the trickle down effect. It's not just raiders who will use them. They end up being reasons to kick people who are leveling, new people who are learning their class or anyone who doesn't meet the random dps number someone assigns to an instance. I've seen this happen in other mmos, chat spammed after each lowbie fight, not to help anyone but to stroke epeens and shame other players. As much as we'd like to believe that those kinds of players are few, the truth is, annonimity breeds elitist attitudes. I would have no problem if only high end raiders who have their own team would have parsers (which they do already) but it doesn't just stay high end. You can't stop the trickle down effect no matter how much you want to.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

This very idea has never been argued against by the people against having a parser built in game. At least not that I've seen. They always skip over this.

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I May have some explanations of the "why" but what I'm about to say is going to sound very dramatic and elitist in a way... Over the last 10 years of different MMOs, I have personally accepted as a fact that some people just don't want to get better in the games they play or even try to work on self improvement for the good of their teams/friends/communities.
Their selfish attitudes when it come to gaming is so huge that most of them just consider the monthly fee enough to play just like they want to, even if it mean to make 3, 7 or 23 other players (who pays the exact same fees) carrying them in any contents.

It's a sad reality and it mostly apply to PVE contents where a lot of people don't take the competitive spirit seriously.
This is also why we have a DPS/Healing meter at end of a match when it come to PVP, because the competitive spirit is accepted there...

If you guys want to see the competitive spirit evolving in PVE communities and accepted as something normal, we have to find a way to "legalize" it to our whole community.
Just like it is totally normal and accepted to be competitive during PVP it should be acceptable to feel it the same way in PVE contents.
But good luck with that, it may take some years :p meanwhile we won't see any kind of official parser (SE, feel free to prove me wrong!).