So Second Coil has been destroyed

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Originally Posted by zar

This thread is nothing more than trolls trolling trolls.

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i think i've been caught

Old content. Whatever.

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Originally Posted by zar

This thread is nothing more than trolls trolling trolls.

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trollception
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/.../886/wntgd.jpg

I am sure lots of People are happy with easing up some of the mechanics. 10% Echo, a few ilevel 120 items and instant Death mechanics removed will surely make the 2nd Coil more accessible for Players without Statics.

What I do not understand on SE's side is why they do not leave their Players with a choice. You can click the Echo away if you want the original Challenge but T6-T8 are no longer what they were with all those Changes. Why can't they just keep both versions and upon registering, you choose between the original version and the eased up one?

This way, people struggling could increase their chances to down the Turns and those who would like to experience the normal version could still have it and everybody would be happy. I am done with T6-8 so I don't really care what happens to it but I find SE's general approach to it doubtful.

I am no hardcore Player for sure (still in P4 T9 and not stepped into the Final one) and I am always a bit behind but that's OK. But still, I prefer having a choice about what is supposed to be the toughest Challenge in the Game. I am glad I have beaten them before they removed almost everything where you had to pay attention to.

For the last Coil, please SE, give us a choice. You want to bang your head really hard against a wall? Do Savage mode. You want the normal and initial Version? Go and do it. You do not have a static and not enough time to learn each turn in several weeks? Choose the ligthened up Version (which is released at least 3 months after the normal one). This would be my ideal understanding of inviting ALL Kind of Players to a Challenge. What they are doing instead is neither fish nor fowl.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

"The damage from Acid Spray's been reduced."

Which could mean it now does anywhere from 10k to 1k. That's a long scale where it can be anywhere from "still fucks you up" to "dangerous enough to still care about" to "yeah it's functionally a non-thing now"

Please actually wait for the servers to come up before attempting to assess the actual severity of these nerfs. All we know is they have been reduced, not if they've actually become something you can completely ignore or not.

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I'm not sure what you're on about even before the patch you could survive one avid rain. I'm sure you can still die to multiple. The enrage I was taking about was the stacks of vuln up that are no longer there.

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

For the last Coil, please SE, give us a choice. You want to bang your head really hard against a wall? Do Savage mode. You want the normal and initial Version? Go and do it. You do not have a static and not enough time to learn each turn in several weeks? Choose the ligthened up Version (which is released at least 3 months after the normal one). This would be my ideal understanding of inviting ALL Kind of Players to a Challenge. What they are doing instead is neither fish nor fowl.

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That I would vouch for.

The vast majority of those things mentioned are just pure damage, which are naturally mitigated by gear and Echo. The exceptions are Ballistic, Brainjack, and Field.

Ballistic I can see causing issue, but it has always been able to be handled by 3 people, so it's not a large impediment. Brainjack is dead easy. Have someone run to the boss's butt when the cast bar shows up and stand there for less than 10 seconds. Allagan Field is another roadblock, but with the inflated stats (which means inflated Stoneskin and Adlo vs the same damage from many of the fight's hits) as well as less people put into moments where they actually have to adapt (having Field when you needed to push a tower, clear mines, do Brainjack etc) means that it is much less threatening.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Actually, there were multiple things stopping people, such as the fact that it required a pre-made party. If you didn't have a static, you were screwed, since most PF groups for SCOB were either farm parties or progression parties that required you to have made it to certain phases in the fight.

New players with no experience were left out in the cold to try to start up their own parties, most of which didn't get much attention because people with clears tended not to be interested in helping strangers get clears.

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This, "Late to the Party" factor, is a major problem. I finally managed to clear T5 midway through 2.3, but few groups were willing to teach a new tank T6 which they had been already farming for close to 3+ months. You pretty much need have the most recent endgame content unlocked on the first day or you will lag far behind.

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

For the last Coil, please SE, give us a choice. You want to bang your head really hard against a wall? Do Savage mode. You want the normal and initial Version? Go and do it. You do not have a static and not enough time to learn each turn in several weeks? Choose the ligthened up Version (which is released at least 3 months after the normal one). This would be my ideal understanding of inviting ALL Kind of Players to a Challenge. What they are doing instead is neither fish nor fowl.

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I agree on what SE has done but what you said is a good option. At-least casuals can finish the story while hardcore players still have option to run it at its hard mode. I will also go with this.

Rest in peace. They really should just nerf these fights into the ground and add them in as a story mode if players want the story so much.

Echo and the higher Item level should serve as enough of a buff.

I'm actually more happy with the nerf than I am unhappy. I managed to beat T5 with the help of some friends, I understand and grasp mechanics easily enough if they're actually explained or I can visually learn them via video or what have you. I have trouble with occasionally with quick reaction speeds (Like Leviathan EX spinning dives, especially if I miss the small window of water spout)... so I'd like to think if I found 7 other people who could comprehend mechanics I could have probably cleared SCoB pre-nerf. I won't get his chance now, but I imagine I would not have enjoyed it as much as some of you, as competent players are few and far between, and unless you dumb luck into a static of level headed players, these kind of end game raids become an impossibility even to those who aren't casual players, simply because of the lack of other good players at your disposal.

So I welcome this nerf, knowing that it will help players progress, and I imagine the super-bad will still not be able to progress because i'd like to believe the mechanics will still be important, just not so "absolute" in the fact that failing one at any given time is almost always a full wipe.

Also, this is I.lv 110 gear am I mistaken? Who the f**k cares if its easier for people to get that now? Soldiery is uncapped, all it takes to get I.lv 110 is doing Syrcus tower, the king of casual raids(For those derp, I mean getting Soldiery and Oils/etc). Heck Poetics is 120, obsoleting most old gear... you even have crafted 110 gear, and while expensive, blows SCoB gear clear out of the water when properly melded. Nothing about SCoB is relevant anymore and at best is just another step for players to more easily acquire I.lv 110 armor, which is already readily available in many other places, and considering poetics, I.lv110 gear will be slowly obsoleted, even by casuals, in the next couple months.

I get that some people enjoyed the challenge of T6~9, and maybe in some sadistic way want others to suffer like they did, but I don't agree with it or care to give that type of logic the time of day. This is the game you people have crafted, this is the MMO market that is popular. Casual everything when it becomes irrelevant, its not surprising nor unexpected. Final Coil will be nerfed when its no longer top content too. Perhaps the only thing I agree with is that in some way playing it the "old way" should be optional, if people wanted that challenge or to experience it the original way it was implemented... for whatever reasons.

But yah, outside of that, I welcome these adjustments, as I think it will help far more "hardcore" players who can't find a group who can count to potato get the clear, rather than the Potatocounters.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

You pretty much need have the most recent endgame content unlocked on the first day or you will lag far behind.

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Are you on a dead server or what ?

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

That would be a great way to annihilate a playerbase I guess. Hell, people would still be stuck in the first coil, not because it wasn't nerfed, but rather because no one does it anymore.

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Hardly. As others have stated, T5 is still a problem for many. This means that there are a lot of people interested in clearing it. And in theory, if you want the playerbase to progress, all you need to do is nerf the final turn of each Coil, NOT all the other turns. Clearing T6-T8 is meaningless, in terms of progression.

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

''To bad players as well'' insinuating that they are bad. I could reach the final coil if I wanted. If I wanted to spend 15 hours a week learning the fights up to t9, with a static that raids during the night three times a week. Yuk, got the wrong priorities over there.

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I am not insinuating that. I am outright stating that. Yours is a typical assumption of someone who needs a reality check, sorry. Our static has been raiding only two days a week, 3 hours at a time. That is 6 hours weekly, which is a pretty "casual" amount if you ask me. Yet we were able to clear all content when it was relevant, even accounting for many nights where our raiders put real life before raiding (and rightly so). Clearing content in FFXIV it's really not a matter of being hardcore. It's just a matter of being willing to put a bit of effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

But really now, people are challenging SE's philisophy that they have put forth since the beginning? All they are doing is giving a steady push to both players that are ahead and those that are behind. The positions are the same, and those who are complaining right now are compaining over nothing.

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What can I say. I would just like to think that players would WANT to challenge themselves, in order to become better and better. Being happy for easy stuff is not something that I can even remotely comprehend. That's all.

It's not even about the loot.
It's just about the "***k yeah guys, we did it."
That's not what you say or think when ST is over; you think "Finally this boring stuff is done."

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

This, "Late to the Party" factor, is a major problem. I finally managed to clear T5 midway through 2.3, but few groups were willing to teach a new tank T6 which they had been already farming for close to 3+ months. You pretty much need have the most recent endgame content unlocked on the first day or you will lag far behind.

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I'm suffering from it somewhat myself because I only began playing about two months ago. Most of my FC has been playing for around a year or so, and while they're happy to help out with things, it can be hard to get 8 people together for a long enough time to teach someone a fight, especially one with a lot of mechanics like T5. I have yet to touch T5 myself because either not enough people are on or they're off doing other things like Shiva EX-- which I'm not blaming anyone for, just saying that it happens.

Oh oh oh I know why all these people are really angry!

"We can't sell SCoB runs for as much now :(((((((((("

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Originally Posted by zar

This thread is nothing more than trolls trolling trolls.

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Ain't it grand?

Or maybe, SE just gets tired of seeing the community selling runs broadcast on twitch.tv almost making fun of the clear buyer every night, instead of playing together as a team and actually helping someone else on their server.

Oh, I don't know. I've just seen SE do similar things back in the FFXI days.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Oh oh oh I know why all these people are really angry!

"We can't sell SCoB runs for as much now :(((((((((("

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Well YOU try selling coil runs when people have to split 1.2m instead of 5m!

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Well YOU try selling coil runs when people have to split 1.2m instead of 5m!

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But I'm just a filthy casual. I pay you people for my clears! That makes it better for me!

Also doesn't that just prove my point?

"How dare people who aren't as good as me enjoy something, HOW DARE THEY!!!"

Cant please everyone, half the people want easier coil once echo comes out, other half says leave as is and those people shouldn't be able to do coil at all since they cant find good parties that communicate. I am the latter and think mechanics should be left alone. Should be able to clear with any normal communication with the buffs.

1. If u consider yourself hardcore: Great! More than likely this adjustment has made your farming capacity more streamlined for attaining more gear in a shorter amount of time. You are more than likely tired of the same fight anyway and will enjoy the laugh the adjustments will bring. You may also revel in the fact that casual players will have little to no bearings on anything worth while that u do.

2. If u consider yourself a casual player: Awesome, understandably not everyone can form statics and commit to set times for raids. I personally hope you enjoy the new adjustments and are able to gear accordingly so that if we may cross paths in the near future you are well equipped for the endevour.

3. If u are a player looking for a challenge or fun in general: To be honest, these 2 things are relative. Content is as fun and challenging as you make it out to be. Remember that no one here pays your sub and go out there and MPK ur team mates for increased fun and difficulty!!

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Originally Posted by RinKaen

Are you on a dead server or what ?

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I'm on a large and active server. At any given time, 95% of the SCOB parties that you'll find in PF are either farm parties or progression parties with messages to the effect of "Must know up to phase X or we will kick!" True learning parties for SCOB are few and far between; most require at least some level of progression in the fight, which can only be obtained by - surprise! - learning. It's much easier to find learning parties for the EX Primals than it is for SCOB.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

They can get a 2nd stack, so what? They will still be taking increased damage for pushing the tower a second time. Pushing the tower a second time before the nerfs would cause you to be near-death or be instantly killed if you were not a tank. As people geared up, people could still survive a second stack. The damage reduction may not be as significant as people claim it to be. They still will be taking amplified damage, and they will get another stack on Languishing. We just have to wait for the servers to come out before we can actually say anything. :x

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2nd stack of Languishing deal 80% of max HP btw

gears or HP has nothing to do with it as its fixed % dmg

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Oh oh oh I know why all these people are really angry!

"We can't sell SCoB runs for as much now :(((((((((("

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That's weird since I'm in a linkshell dedicated to helping teach new players old content and run them through it.... for free. We don't have any presence on the forums, only from a long time ago when it was simply Titan HM aid back at launch: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...your-Titankill!, but it's still going.

I'm annoyed because Second Coil was a good middle of the road option where I could run it and have some fun because it wasn't hugely difficult, but simultaneously it wasn't as easy to the point where I can basically switch off my brain and do it.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

And in theory, if you want the playerbase to progress, all you need to do is nerf the final turn of each Coil, NOT all the other turns. Clearing T6-T8 is meaningless, in terms of progression.

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Erm, no, that would be counterproductive. Nerfing the final turn of each coil would insinuate that the next tier is as difficult. Then the playerbase would get discourage and give up. Instead keeping a difficult curve at the end ensures that the players are as prepared for the next tier.

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Originally Posted by Ruri

Cant please everyone, half the people want easier coil once echo comes out, other half says leave as is and those people shouldn't be able to do coil at all since they cant find good parties that communicate. I am the latter and think mechanics should be left alone. Should be able to clear with any normal communication with the buffs.

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Not that I disagree that you can't please everyone, but the facts are that the people who clear endgame content are a very, very small part of the community, and while some casual/less hardcores who haven't cleared it might have wanted it the same, I'd eat a shoe if more than 20% of the playerbase was unhappy with these changes. (though I'll probably never eat a shoe)

Those hardcore types are actually a severe minority, which is why T2 still remains uncleared for many people. I do want a challenge to exist of course, which is why I'm not saying "THEY SOULD NERF FCOB TOO!", but when content becomes legitimate irrelevant, I see no reason not to nerf it. Though again, I think they should have a "Classic" mode or something to play it the old way for those who want to experience it, but we cant have everything.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I am not insinuating that. I am outright stating that. Yours is a typical assumption of someone who needs a reality check, sorry. Our static has been raiding only two days a week, 3 hours at a time.

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Ah well, I suppose that you are lucky. In times when statics come and go, and finding a pug for a learning opportunity is counterproductive. In that case, you would be the one in need of a check. Statics rarely go smooth.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

What can I say. I would just like to think that players would WANT to challenge themselves,...

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Again, you're assuming that players will not get to become better with, say, turn 9. Keeping the same difficulty with the same one shot mechanics would be obnoxious for new players. An obnoxious raiding curve must be challenging, sure, but certainly not enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

What I do not understand on SE's side is why they do not leave their Players with a choice. You can click the Echo away if you want the original Challenge but T6-T8 are no longer what they were with all those Changes. Why can't they just keep both versions and upon registering, you choose between the original version and the eased up one?

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I definitely wouldn't mind this. Call it Nth Coil of Bahamut (Classic). Maybe give players a title for clearing it, and retroactively give vets with clears titles and achievements for (Classic) mode when a nerfed version comes out. Something like Playername <<Original Recipe>>.

I can't experience the challenge of BCoB, should I quit now?

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

"How dare people who aren't as good as me enjoy something, HOW DARE THEY!!!"

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How can people just be fine with "not being as good as others"?
This is what I am failing to understand.

FFXIV is not rocket science. It's really basic stuff. There is no reason for any person with a normal amount of eye-hand coordination not to be able to clear content. I mean, you REALLY need to be seriously impaired to need Blighted Bouquet to be nerfed when the way to survive it was DOING NOTHING.

There's this thing called, latency as well.

Have you even been playing on the servers the last few days???

Eh...

dude i glad they nerfed this, its hard enough for my static to roll around to farm and people quitting after 1-2 attempts on T7, t6 and t8 meh i can care less i (and we) never had an issue this makes clearing runs faster carrying people for the sake of sol. All these internal complaints of the nerf you want to go hardcore, go savage. Me? i can finally farm t7 and get mah loot as well as my other buddies that long for so long.

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Originally Posted by Mitracia

Ah well, I suppose that you are lucky. In times when statics come and go, and finding a pug for a learning opportunity is counterproductive. In that case, you would be the one in need of a check. Statics rarely go smooth.

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Point is, it's not a matter of luck. As I said before, it's a matter of effort. From T6 to T10, 5 out of 8 members of my static have changed. This of course slowed us down even more, but as long as there is someone willing to recruit new players and test them out, clearing content is not that problematic.

You just need to keep trying.
Even after you fail, countless times.
Even when static people leave you - you find others, establish new relationships, and keep going.
Never surrender!

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

That's weird since I'm in a linkshell dedicated to helping teach new players old content and run them through it.... for free. We don't have any presence on the forums, only from a long time ago when it was simply Titan HM aid back at launch: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...your-Titankill!, but it's still going.

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Not to discredit the awesome work you guys are doing helping people, because seriously, thank you for doing that. But, you have proven nothing with this. People like you and your LS are quite few and far between, at least in my experience on the game, and even if theres at least one on every server, its an 8 man raid, and you can only carry so many people at a time. Some will be left out, and I imagine even the kindest folk will get bored carrying/helping wave after wave of new folks. I admit I do tend to run into nice enough players in duty finder and such, so i'm not saying the entire community is full of jerks... just that those who have cleared SCoB don't usually take in new people/teach them, as its far easier to stick with the 8 you have that can clear rather than trying to teach people who might not grasp mechanics as they do... and most don't even try unless its a friend or such.

Now, that out of the way, I'm actually in support of your side though, surprising right? I'm in a Linkshell who occasionally helps people with T5/T6 and such, they helped me in my T5 win, and though I wasn't carried, it took me a few attempts to figure it out, but once I did, I actually survived the entire fight beginning to end and avoided these mechanics, so its wasn't impossible, but without these people who helped me and knew the fight, I'd of probably never cleared it with a PUG since good players, rather helpful, or just smart, are hard to come by. Most people will not be as lucky as me, or those in your group... they wont have people who will patiently help them, or walk them through it, and a video can only get you so far. These are the people this update helps.

Edit: Also the 1000 character limit is so GD restricting that its annoying, its worse than a Tweet, because at least with a Tweet they're designed to be short and to the point... Forum posts generally are not. Whos bright idea was this I'll never know.

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Originally Posted by Kahoku

1. If u consider yourself hardcore: Great! More than likely this adjustment has made your farming capacity more streamlined for attaining more gear in a shorter amount of time. You are more than likely tired of the same fight anyway and will enjoy the laugh the adjustments will bring. You may also revel in the fact that casual players will have little to no bearings on anything worth while that u do.

2. If u consider yourself a casual player: Awesome, understandably not everyone can form statics and commit to set times for raids. I personally hope you enjoy the new adjustments and are able to gear accordingly so that if we may cross paths in the near future you are well equipped for the endevour.

3. Content is as fun and challenging as you make it out to be.

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You'd think it would be a win-win for everyone, but nope!
http://38.media.tumblr.com/cd329865c...bokpo1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

How can people just be fine with "not being as good as others"?
This is what I am failing to understand.

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I'm in a linkshell and FC filled with aussies and some people are on something called a Playstation 3 and poor connections.

Unfortunately, FF14 is extremely discriminatory with peoples performance and less than stellar machines. There are also people I know who are nice, and make great friends, but for whatever reason just cannot perform. They're a bit slow, or have anxiety, or panic a bit under pressure at things. They're still friends though, so we try to complete content together.

I'm not really sure what else to tell you, there's a lot of people out there, and sometimes I wonder if it is the majority: who just cannot complete this "easy" content like T5 and T9.

If you made friends before going into coil, and they turned out to be just completely unable to perform despite showing actual true effort- what would you do? Would you leave them?

ITT: People are mad 7 month old content is now easier for players who have difficulty clearing it...

Honestly it doesn't bother me the changes they made; it makes wipes less likely for newer/unskilled/time restricted players. You still have to know the mechanics of the fight to conquer it. Just look at Titan HM/EX - no amount of echo buff will help people clear it without assistance of skilled players or extensive training. And you can always get rid of the echo buff if you want T9 la naturel.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I come to accept the change. I will finally be able to troll my LS with Cursed Voice.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

Unfortunately, FF14 is extremely discriminatory with peoples performance and less than stellar machines.[/SIZE]

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Tell me about it. I have yet to clear Titan EX not because I don't know the mechanics of the fight, but because even WITH a VPN, I still get hit with the occasional bout of latency and boom, off the platform I go. Sometimes I can dodge Landslides just fine, other times I'll be out of the marker and get sent flying anyway. It's extremely frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

If you made friends before going into coil, and they turned out to be just completely unable to perform despite showing actual true effort- what would you do? Would you leave them?

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Yes. Because my first static failed to clear t5 or Tex. I started joining pfs and getting my own experience and clearing content while they waited for MUH ECHO IN T5