Carraway's Guide to the New Archer: 1.18 and Beyond

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Just an FYI while i was testing BFB i was also using bloodletter and at no point did it do "dot" damage, the only damage bloodletter does is still the end tick after 30 seconds.

Also i can personally see Bloodletter giving a higher benefit if staggered when using 2 archers and on a fight with only 1 enemy or on extremely high defense enemies where weaponskills are doing far less damage, however on the moogle fight i think if you are bringing 4-5 archers like we do and most LS's do than organizing a rotation that wont overall lower the parties damage output would take a decent amount of practice and in most cases will barely break even with having all archers just spam cooldowns.

Most moogles in phase 1 for us die too fast for Bloodletter to take effect the main benefit would be in phase 2 where the moogles generally take longer to die due to kiting and controlling the fight, coordinating a Bloodletter rotation during this time would just be a hindrance to most peoples tactics.

I agree though that if you see Bloodletter is currently up on the target and has been for a while you are better off holding off that Bloodletter for a while, but with the hectic nature of phase 2 that can be tricky even for the most experienced archers especially when you are focusing more on winning the fight and not winning the Bloodletter dot damage award.

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How much damage do your Bloodletters do? I see them generally do:

on Whiskerwall:
Bloodletter does 200-300 on average though I have done as much as 400 on rare occasions.
light shot I tend do 50-80 on whiskerwall (however I will say the animation and delay for bloodletter is longer than light shot for me at least)
170-210 on Heavy Shot. (which also has a slightly faster animation)

A difference of 200-380

on Pomburner with the low(est?) defense:

Bloodletter does 600 maybe if you are real lucky, more likely it does between 250 and 400.
Light shot does as much of 325 and averages between 240-270.
Heavy shot does as much as 448 and averages between 315-360

So a difference of 360.

So by reducing your DPS by 360 you only gain 570 damage, so really you only gain ~210 damage.


Except none of that is true. How would you not fire bloodletter off in 80 seconds (bloodletter's cooldown) just because you were trying to avoid overwriting a 20 second DoT. If you all fire at once, and the Moogle is only going to live 30 seconds great. During the 2nd Phase if you are kiting Bloodletter is great as it allows you to kite while continuing to do damage (whether they removed the DoT portion and Square Enix simply lied when they wrote:

Bloodletter

Delivers a ranged attack. Chance to inflict a bleed effect.
Combo Action: Gloom Arrow
Combo Bonus: Inflicts additional damage when bleed fades.
TP: 1500 / Recast Time: 80sec. / Duration: 30sec.

in the patch notes or not) with the end damage inflicted by the combo. So it is definitely worth it. I'm not advocating people stop using Bloodletter, simply that perhaps they should consider applying some critical thought to the encounter to determine whether mindlessly spamming a combo because it is its "turn" in yout rotation overwriting someone else's DoT instead of waiting between 20-1 seconds is really worth it.


Edit: Maybe you are confused what I am talking about. When Bloodletter lands it has a chance of leaving a DoT, this looks like the bloodletter icon, when that wears off it does extra damage. Bloodletter does not always apply the debuff (it definitely seems to be a lower chance than in 1.18). If you see this icon it means there is a DoT on the mob, and you should not fire another Bloodletter until it has worn off.

Dot generally means "damage over time" atleast from my experience which fits with spells like how poison, dia, bio etc worked pre patch.
There is no Dot effect on Bloodletter and never has been so yes i may have been confused as to what dot you were referring to, the debuff effect of Bloodletter lasts 30 seconds and for me does exactly 570 damage no matter if you use it in the combo or outside the combo meaning either the effect is bugged or just not showing the correct damage.

Also personally although i haven't done extensive testing using fraps to time how long it exactly takes to do a full 3 step combo i am almost positive you can do a 3 step combo in the same amount of time or maybe even less than it would take to do 3 lightshots especially considering they are on a 4 second cooldown.

The rest of your post i don't really know what you are trying to get at, i already said that Bloodletter is extremely effective on high defense targets and so i agree on high defense targets a Bloodletter rotation would be optimal, however only 1 of the 8 moogles in the moogle fight has high enough defense for this to be the case and since the GLA moogle is usually killed last for us it seems pointless to discuss a Bloodletter rotation when by that time you have won the fight.

If other LS's are trying to kill the GLA moogle earlier than last than sure trying a Bloodletter rotation might be beneficial although i personally don't understand why you would kill it earlier since its the least harmful of all the moogles and more of an annoyance than a problem.

I think we're essentially all on the same page, since we all want our groups to be doing the most damage possible. I'll edit the Bloodletter portion of the guide to advise using your best judgment in particular situations (not Bloodlettering when a mob is about to die, not overwriting Bloodletter that's about to proc, staggering rotations if you have only two or three archers).

(In the past, Bloodletter has never had an actual DoT effect, only a damage proc at the end of the debuff's duration)

Interesting. Then it seems Bloodletter either still needs to be fixed, or the description needs to be changes since it has always mentioned a DoT.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Interesting. Then it seems Bloodletter either still needs to be fixed, or the description needs to be changes since it has always mentioned a DoT.

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Yeah i don't know if that is just a mistranslation or just a misinterpretation of what Bloodletter does but i have never seen it actually do damage over time damage only ever the damage at the end of the effect.

Also as i said it does seem to be bugged currently either in the log or in what damage it actually does since the additional effect from using it in the combo seems to imply using it in the combo causes it to do more damage, yet i have never seen it do more than 570 which is also the same damage as Bloodletter does without using it in a combo.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Yeah i don't know if that is just a mistranslation or just a misinterpretation of what Bloodletter does but i have never seen it actually do damage over time damage only ever the damage at the end of the effect.

Also as i said it does seem to be bugged currently either in the log or in what damage it actually does since the additional effect from using it in the combo seems to imply using it in the combo causes it to do more damage, yet i have never seen it do more than 570 which is also the same damage as Bloodletter does without using it in a combo.

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Right. When I read the description for the new Bloodletter I thought it would normally always do DoT, but only when used in a combo it would proc the static end damage. Seems that is not the case, but there definitely is a discrepancy between what is actually happening and what the WS description says will happen.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Yeah i don't know if that is just a mistranslation or just a misinterpretation of what Bloodletter does but i have never seen it actually do damage over time damage only ever the damage at the end of the effect.

Also as i said it does seem to be bugged currently either in the log or in what damage it actually does since the additional effect from using it in the combo seems to imply using it in the combo causes it to do more damage, yet i have never seen it do more than 570 which is also the same damage as Bloodletter does without using it in a combo.

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DoT damage has never been in the logs ever. There is even a response from Yoshida on the matter saying that the log doesn't show it. That they know it is an issue, but for whatever reason they don't care to fix it.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of DoT spells in the game, and they also don't show in the log. Would you seriously say they do no damage as well?

The description says nothing about it raising the additional damage at the end of the DoT.

"The Combo Bonus: Inflicts additional damage when bleed fades."

It doesn't do the additional damage at all if you use Bloodletter solo, only the bleed effect applies and there is no 571 at the end.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Dot generally means "damage over time" atleast from my experience which fits with spells like how poison, dia, bio etc worked pre patch.
There is no Dot effect on Bloodletter and never has been so yes i may have been confused as to what dot you were referring to, the debuff effect of Bloodletter lasts 30 seconds and for me does exactly 570 damage no matter if you use it in the combo or outside the combo meaning either the effect is bugged or just not showing the correct damage.

Also personally although i haven't done extensive testing using fraps to time how long it exactly takes to do a full 3 step combo i am almost positive you can do a 3 step combo in the same amount of time or maybe even less than it would take to do 3 lightshots especially considering they are on a 4 second cooldown.

The rest of your post i don't really know what you are trying to get at, i already said that Bloodletter is extremely effective on high defense targets and so i agree on high defense targets a Bloodletter rotation would be optimal, however only 1 of the 8 moogles in the moogle fight has high enough defense for this to be the case and since the GLA moogle is usually killed last for us it seems pointless to discuss a Bloodletter rotation when by that time you have won the fight.

If other LS's are trying to kill the GLA moogle earlier than last than sure trying a Bloodletter rotation might be beneficial although i personally don't understand why you would kill it earlier since its the least harmful of all the moogles and more of an annoyance than a problem.

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Dia, Poison, Bio, Rasp, Burn, etc. etc. none of them showed in the log. Ever. I thought you all had been parsing for a while, how did you not know that DoT damage simply isn't logged???

Okay, so you say that you kill every moogle in less than 20 seconds. I would say you are probably in a very small minority. So in all the fight only takes you 8 minutes and 20 seconds. That's incredible, and you deserve everyone's applause.

For others who let's say cannot defeat all the moogles in the 2nd phase in 20 seconds each, a Bloodletter DoT/additional damage would add damage. Some really crappy groups might take 40 seconds or longer to kill a few of the moogles, so they definitely would benefit from the full use of bloodletter rather than mindless spam.

Have you ever just used Bloodletter and watched the HP bar of your target? No DoT.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

DoT damage has never been in the logs ever. There is even a response from Yoshida on the matter saying that the log doesn't show it. That they know it is an issue, but for whatever reason they don't care to fix it.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of DoT spells in the game, and they also don't show in the log. Would you seriously say they do no damage as well?

The description says nothing about it raising the additional damage at the end of the DoT.

"The Combo Bonus: Inflicts additional damage when bleed fades."

It doesn't do the additional damage at all if you use Bloodletter solo, only the bleed effect applies and there is no 571 at the end.



Dia, Poison, Bio, Rasp, Burn, etc. etc. none of them showed in the log. Ever.

Okay, so you kill every moogle in less than 20 seconds. I would say you are probably in a very small minority. So in all the fight only takes you 8 minutes and 20 seconds. That's incredible, and you deserve everyone's applause.

For others who let's say cannot defeat all the moogles in the 2nd phase in 20 seconds each, a Bloodletter DoT/additional damage would add damage. Some really crappy groups might take 40 seconds or longer to kill a few of the moogles, so they definitely would benefit from the full use of bloodletter rather than mindless spam.

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lol. You're arguing against in game trial and testing with a Weaponskill description? Also, I'm sure everyone speaking here is well aware that DoTs don't show up on the log. That's not the reason anyone is saying Bloodletter doesn't have a DoT effect. Hit a mob with Bloodletter and watch it's HP. See if you can see it ticking down like you did with Poison, Bio, Dia, or even any other bleed effect in game right now. That's how you test to see if there is a DoT. I'm confident the players posting here from Bluegarter are well aware in how to check if there is a DoT.

The angry, condescending demeanor of your posts isn't helping anything. Do the fight however way you'd like. Believe whatever you'd like.

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Originally Posted by carraway

Have you ever just used Bloodletter and watched the HP bar of your target? No DoT.

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Yeah I have.

Did you all never stack DoT's and watch the target's HP magically disappear even though no damage was shown in the log?

I'm in game right now watching it kill a Shrieker.

Maybe you don't know what the Bloodletter DoT looks like? When it hits as part of the combo it looks like the bloodletter icon, if it only inflicts the DoT (as in when you use it solo then it looks like Skull Sunder/Bloodletter used to).

Also it definitely does not do 570 additional damage at the end if not used in a combo.

Your Bloodletter hits the shrieker for 339 points of damage.
Your Bloodletter inflicts the shrieker with the effect of Bloodletter.
The shrieker's attack hits you for 243 points of damage.
Your attack hits the shrieker for 66 points of damage.
You are no longer invigorated.
The shrieker's attack hits you for 259 points of damage.
Your attack hits the shrieker for 67 points of damage.
The shrieker's stem deflates.
The target is out of range.
The shrieker readies Hypha Whip.
The shrieker's Hypha Whip hits you from the rear for 395 points of damage.
The target is too far away.
The target is out of range.
The shrieker's stem inflates!
The shrieker's stem inflates!
The shrieker no longer suffers the effect of Bloodletter.
The shrieker's attack hits you from the rear for 261 points of damage.
The shrieker's attack hits you from the rear for 262 points of damage.
Stickyd Hellacritz: Please Check Calendar & Rules Before Applying @ Zantetsuken.Jimdo.com
Stickyd Hellacritz: Looking for members. Active & Experienced Playaz w/ 15 50s + Sentinel
Stickyd Hellacritz: Zantetsuken "Endgame Linkshell" International
The shrieker's stem deflates.
The shrieker readies Hypha Whip.
The shrieker's Hypha Whip hits you from the rear for 408 points of damage.
The shrieker returns to its territory.
The target is too far away.

You may need to work on your testing skills. And Noctis you may want to try thinking for yourself.

Looking at a target's HP going down when many DoTs are on it is a totally different concept than just monitoring Bloodletter by itself.

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Originally Posted by carraway

Looking at a target's HP going down when many DoTs are on it is a totally different concept than just monitoring Bloodletter by itself.

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Which is why I said :

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Yeah I have.

Did you all never stack DoT's and watch the target's HP magically disappear even though no damage was shown in the log?

I'm in game right now watching it kill a Shrieker.

Maybe you don't know what the Bloodletter DoT looks like? When it hits as part of the combo it looks like the bloodletter icon, if it only inflicts the DoT (as in when you use it solo then it looks like Skull Sunder/Bloodletter used to).

Also it definitely does not do 570 additional damage at the end if not used in a combo.

Your Bloodletter hits the shrieker for 339 points of damage.
Your Bloodletter inflicts the shrieker with the effect of Bloodletter.
The shrieker's attack hits you for 243 points of damage.
Your attack hits the shrieker for 66 points of damage.
You are no longer invigorated.
The shrieker's attack hits you for 259 points of damage.
Your attack hits the shrieker for 67 points of damage.
The shrieker's stem deflates.
The target is out of range.
The shrieker readies Hypha Whip.
The shrieker's Hypha Whip hits you from the rear for 395 points of damage.
The target is too far away.
The target is out of range.
The shrieker's stem inflates!
The shrieker's stem inflates!
The shrieker no longer suffers the effect of Bloodletter.
The shrieker's attack hits you from the rear for 261 points of damage.
The shrieker's attack hits you from the rear for 262 points of damage.
Stickyd Hellacritz: Please Check Calendar & Rules Before Applying @ Zantetsuken.Jimdo.com
Stickyd Hellacritz: Looking for members. Active & Experienced Playaz w/ 15 50s + Sentinel
Stickyd Hellacritz: Zantetsuken "Endgame Linkshell" International
The shrieker's stem deflates.
The shrieker readies Hypha Whip.
The shrieker's Hypha Whip hits you from the rear for 408 points of damage.
The shrieker returns to its territory.
The target is too far away.

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Do you see anything else on it? You think I have a group of mages casting non-existent spells that were removed from the game or something?

Bloodletter does DoT damage, I'll do it again if you'd like. Do you want me to kill one with the DoT damage? Do you need a video? Or do you want me to come to your house and play your character for you to show you something anyone can test in 2 minutes.

I went to test it again just incase it got hotfixed in the last maintenance and indeed it did, it now does a small amount of damage which i must have missed earlier since it was very small (as in maybe 50-100 damage over 30 seconds), they also fixed the non combo version doing the damage at the end aswell.

So yeah you are right Murugan it now works correctly the way it says in the tooltip, it however didn't when carraway started amending this guide 3 days ago as i personally tested it and at no point before this patch has Bloodletter ever done dot damage even though the tooltip has always referred to it as doing dot damage.

Also for reference the dot lasts 30 seconds not 20 seconds.

So yeah i can admit i was wrong even if you cant but thanks for helping fix an error in the guide.

It however doesn't change anything in the original discussion and infact knowing that the dot does now work makes me even more positive that using it whenever its off cooldown is the most beneficial dps to the entire party, considering the initial damage+dot damage should almost equal the damage at the end effect in terms of damage meaning with more than 2 archers you would be wasting damage if archers held off for some kind of rotation atleast during a fight like the moogle fight.

I don't really get your extremely aggressive and condescending posts for example your first post in this discussion you instantly attacked carraway for no apparently reason, even though he is spending his own time and effort creating this guide to help people even though he doesn't have to.

If you feel like you could write a better guide without slight mistakes or oversights than i advise you go do so.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

I went to test it again just incase it got hotfixed in the last maintenance and indeed it did, it now does a small amount of damage which i must have missed earlier since it was very small (as in maybe 50-100 damage over 30 seconds), they also fixed the non combo version doing the damage at the end aswell.

So yeah you are right Murugan it now works correctly the way it says in the tooltip, it however didn't when carraway started amending this guide 3 days ago as i personally tested it and at no point before this patch has Bloodletter ever done dot damage even though the tooltip has always referred to it as doing dot damage.

Also for reference the dot lasts 30 seconds not 20 seconds.

So yeah i can admit i was wrong even if you cant but thanks for helping fix an error in the guide.

It however doesn't change anything in the original discussion and infact knowing that the dot does now work makes me even more positive that using it whenever its off cooldown is the most beneficial dps to the entire party, considering the initial damage+dot damage should almost equal the damage at the end effect in terms of damage meaning with more than 2 archers you would be wasting damage if archers held off for some kind of rotation atleast during a fight like the moogle fight.

I don't really get your extremely aggressive and condescending posts for example your first post in this discussion you instantly attacked carraway for no apparently reason, even though he is spending his own time and effort creating this guide to help people even though he doesn't have to.

If you feel like you could write a better guide without slight mistakes or oversights than i advise you go do so.

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How was I wrong?

And I'm sorry but Carraway wrote a guide. He didn't do charity work, this is a work of his opinion on how people should play archer in which he has copied information found in-game and patch notes.

You keep saying I am condescending, when the two of you do nothing but address every criticism of your guide with "we tested extensively" and it showed that we were right the way we are doing it is clearly better.

You rarely ever post numbers or rationale behind what you claim, and make supporting arguments like something "reduces DPS". How do you expect someone to have a constructive discussion when you leave no room for a counter argument.

Reduces DPS is saying that "oh I've already tested every possible conclusion, and the way I'm currently doing it is the indisputably superior way to do it".

Then I post for 4 more pages with the same recycled responses. Until finally Akuun posts and you finally relent. Only I thought I saw that Akuun quit in the general forums, so I guess that won't happen this time. The only other person who seems to be involved in the "discussion" here is Noctis and I doubt he is going to suddenly start criticizing anything you write.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

How was I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Murugan

simply staggering 20 seconds at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

or by staggering by 20 seconds at the start

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Originally Posted by Murugan

just because you were trying to avoid overwriting a 20 second DoT.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

so you say that you kill every moogle in less than 20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

For others who let's say cannot defeat all the moogles in the 2nd phase in 20 seconds each,

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Considering you tested Bloodletter so extensively you quite clearly know its a 30 second dot right?

Not all of us are perfect which is why this thread exists to discuss the class.

I'm not in the Ul'dahn GC. So, wouldn't Penence be the best belt to get? You've got a dated belt as an arc's best option for waist.

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Originally Posted by DyskoFox

I'm not in the Ul'dahn GC. So, wouldn't Penence be the best belt to get? You've got a dated belt as an arc's best option for waist.

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Tarred Velveteen Longsash or just Velveteen Longsash should be a new recipe but gives the same stats as the dated version (+1 dex +2 Accuracy) which is better than Penance since Str currently doesn't seem to give anything for archer.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Considering you tested Bloodletter so extensively you quite clearly know its a 30 second dot right?

Not all of us are perfect which is why this thread exists to discuss the class.

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I never claimed to have tested anything extensively. I posted facts in response to claims that the Bleed/proc effect of Bloodletter was unimportant.

• Bloodletter does up to 570 damage on the end of bleed with the combo.
• Bloodletter does DoT damage.

Based on those I drew my conclusions. If this is a place to discuss the class how about you genuinely discuss it and stop killing topics of discussion by saying "I know better than you because I said so and I'm such an unquestionable authority on the subject".

I never accused you of being wrong about the DoT lasting 30 seconds. Yes, I thought it was 20 seconds, and I was wrong. It changes nothing in my opinion, but it is quite a different thing from the three of you repeatedly accusing me of being wrong about DoT damage, not knowing how to tell if there is DoT damage w/o a log, and blindly going off of ability descriptions.

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Originally Posted by carraway

(In the past, Bloodletter has never had an actual DoT effect, only a damage proc at the end of the debuff's duration)

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Right. When I read the description for the new Bloodletter I thought it would normally always do DoT, but only when used in a combo it would proc the static end damage. Seems that is not the case, but there definitely is a discrepancy between what is actually happening and what the WS description says will happen.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol. You're arguing against in game trial and testing with a Weaponskill description? Also, I'm sure everyone speaking here is well aware that DoTs don't show up on the log. That's not the reason anyone is saying Bloodletter doesn't have a DoT effect. Hit a mob with Bloodletter and watch it's HP. See if you can see it ticking down like you did with Poison, Bio, Dia, or even any other bleed effect in game right now. That's how you test to see if there is a DoT. I'm confident the players posting here from Bluegarter are well aware in how to check if there is a DoT.

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You implying that I don't know what DoT means:

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Dot generally means "damage over time" atleast from my experience which fits with spells like how poison, dia, bio etc worked pre patch.
There is no Dot effect on Bloodletter and never has been so yes i may have been confused as to what dot you were referring to, the debuff effect of Bloodletter lasts 30 seconds and for me does exactly 570 damage no matter if you use it in the combo or outside the combo meaning either the effect is bugged or just not showing the correct damage.

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So again I don't see how I am the only one with a condescending tone.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I never claimed to have tested anything extensively. I posted facts in response to claims that the Bleed/proc effect of Bloodletter was unimportant.

• Bloodletter does up to 570 damage on the end of bleed with the combo.
• Bloodletter does DoT damage.

Based on those I drew my conclusions. If this is a place to discuss the class how about you genuinely discuss it and stop with the "I know better than you because I said so" nonsense.

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Ok than so going back to the discussion of whether it is better to use Bloodletter in a rotation to maximise the damage at the end of the bleed effect or if its better to use it whenever it comes off cooldown during the moogle fight.

I pretty have to go with using it whenever it comes off cooldown still.

Why? because the only moogle that the damage effect has a major effect on over the initial hit + dot effect damage is the PLD/GLA moogle, this is 1 moogle out of 8 that appear during the fight and generally most LS's tactics involve killing this moogle last and ignoring it for the majority of the fight.

Also due to the hectic nature of phase 2 and the possibility of the group doing it being comprised of 4-5 archers coordinating any kind of rotation to me atleast seems overly complicated and of very little benefit to overall party dps.

If you are going into an encounter that is comprised of mostly or all high defense enemies where the damage difference between the initial bloodletter hit and the damage at the end effect is significant than yes i 100% agree staggering/rotating bloodletters would overall give a higher group wide damage output.

If you notice that bloodletter has currently been on the target for 15-20 seconds and your bloodletter is about to come off cooldown than yes you should be using your own judgement and holding off bloodletter for those 10-15 seconds to maximise damage if at all possible.

If you want to overcomplicate an already hectic and complicated encounter to gain a very fractional dps increase or possibly even dps loss than go for it.

And again if you don't like the way carraway writes his guides than don't read them and go write one yourself, i would personally be extremely interested in your ideas of a perfect archer rotation, just remember to post lots of numbers and pictures so someone doesn't come tell you that you are talking crap.

Edit: Also a small little edit, considering the fact the bloodletter debuff also doesn't have a 100% proc chance unless you could somehow boost a stat to where bloodletter always procs you will be required to plan for when it resists, in a 15 minute fight this can quite easily happen 10+ times which complicates the staggering/rotation even more.

I don't know about other LS's but to me the most simplistic tactic is generally the best tactic to go with, overcomplicating things generally causes problems and causes things to takes much longer to complete.

Also you interrupted my Gundam marathon with this dumb crap so thanks for that! :(

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Ok than so going back to the discussion of whether it is better to use Bloodletter in a rotation to maximise the damage at the end of the bleed effect or if its better to use it whenever it comes off cooldown during the moogle fight.

I pretty have to go with using it whenever it comes off cooldown still.

Why? because the only moogle that the damage effect has a major effect on over the initial hit + dot effect damage is the PLD/GLA moogle, this is 1 moogle out of 8 that appear during the fight and generally most LS's tactics involve killing this moogle last and ignoring it for the majority of the fight.

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I'll make it simple because you are fixated on my "staggering" which was merely an attempt to appease your need to never interrupt your timers.

WARNING: I'm going to suggest you neglect your timers situationally (hide your children)

Even with 30 seconds of DoT, in all likelihood you would rarely have to wait long enough for it to develop into a serious problem in your overall damage. Again I won't user whiskerwall as that is too obvious, I'll use Pukna Pako the Tailturner as an example because he is where I have the best bloodletter testing on*.

You encounter a Bloodletter effect on Pukna and your Bloodletter just became available:
Instead of using Bloodletter combo, and depending on the length of time the bloodletter DoT has been on the mob you:

• A. Use Piercing Arrow>Gloom Arrow anyways, then continue on rotation as if you fired bloodletter, coming back to it later.
  Dealing ~365+310= 630-680 damage for piercing/gloom.
  Wasting 20 seconds of your Bloodletter's potential timer, or in other terms 25% of a single Bloodletter's initial damage.
  Bloodletter would have likely done ~350-450
  450*25%=112 damage of a Bloodletter lost
  
  
  B. Use Heavy Shot+Light Shot (+light shot if necessary)
  Dealing ~350+240= 560-590 damage (with an additional ~240 damage every 4 seconds afterwards).
  Wasting 5 seconds of Bloodletter's potential timer (+4 for every light shot after that). Or in other terms 6.25% (+5% for every light shot after that).
  Bloodletter would have likely done ~350-450
  450*6.25%=28 damage lost (-22 damage for every extra light shot)

Now we both know you can't shoot 5% or a quarter of a Bloodletter, so you might say "well maybe that means player A does one less bloodletter the entire fight" but in response I'd say "maybe they will have the exact same number of bloodletters" and probability would be in my favor.


*I'd have used Pukla Puki the Pomburner as it seems to have the lowest defense, but this rarely ever happens in our attempts because we blow him up first with generally no one using bloodletter since we kill him using Barrage (if timed right pre-buffed 50 seconds prior to AF), QK combo, and if necessary WV combo (as well as Howling Fist combo, Whirlwind Combo, Thundaga etc. but I know you only are interested in using archers so that probably won't matter to you) saving the Bloodletter combo for Pukna. We generally have the 1st phase moogles killed long enough to recoup our timers, gain 3k TP and prebuff in preparation for 2nd phase. So it is basically a fresh beginning.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

Also due to the hectic nature of phase 2 and the possibility of the group doing it being comprised of 4-5 archers coordinating any kind of rotation to me atleast seems overly complicated and of very little benefit to overall party dps.

If you are going into an encounter that is comprised of mostly or all high defense enemies where the damage difference between the initial bloodletter hit and the damage at the end effect is significant than yes i 100% agree staggering/rotating bloodletters would overall give a higher group wide damage output.

If you notice that bloodletter has currently been on the target for 15-20 seconds and your bloodletter is about to come off cooldown than yes you should be using your own judgement and holding off bloodletter for those 10-15 seconds to maximise damage if at all possible.

If you want to overcomplicate an already hectic and complicated encounter to gain a very fractional dps increase or possibly even dps loss than go for it.

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It's not complicated, and the fight isn't too hectic to look at a mob and determine its DoT's. It is a perfectly reasonable request to make at endgame that people not unnecessarily overwrite timebomb DoT's, anyone who has done endgame with similar abilities (Vanguard comes to mind) will have likely been doing this for years.

The DoT doesn't stick that often anyways. If it's sticking 100% for you please tell me your secret. This is not a full time burden that requires on the spot calculus, you simply have to have some limited awareness of the fight.

In other words you have to not actively ignore it in favor of your absolute devotion to the rotation.

As for the DoT sticking, it would be interesting to test whether PIE or some other stat affects it, and exactly what its rate is. However since no one has made a parser which tracks Bloodletter damage I would have to go line by line through the log to calculate proc percentage.

The problem with what you are saying Murugan and it was the same with your perfect DH rotation is that on paper it seems perfect atleast to you but when put into practice never works the way you think it should, for example what happens when you bring 4 archers and 1 of the archers Bloodletters comes off cooldown 5 seconds before the others and procs the dot? you not only lose the 20 seconds from 3 archers but you than lose another 35 seconds of blood letter damage for the 2 archers that don't apply the dot next, than what happens when that 2nd archer misses and you lose another 5-6 seconds waiting for the 3rd archer to apply it.

Can you not see how this starts to become overcomplicated and wasteful for a very minor amount of damage?

Again as has been said by me and carraway in previous posts if you are running with 1-2 archers which seems to be the way you do the fight than yes rotating bloodletters is obviously going to be much more beneficial than spamming cooldowns, pretty sure carraway even said he would be adding it to the main pages guide so people aren't confused.

When you are running with mostly archers though as we do and other LS's do than rotating bloodletters just begins to become overcomplicated and maximising groupwide dps would be more beneficial with a spam cooldowns type of rotation as has been stated.

Either way this discussion seems to be going round in circles and is getting extremely boring to read.

You have your way of doing dps and it seems to work for you we have ours and it works for us, if you don't want to read carraways guide because you feel you are better and have no need for our flawed way of doing things i suggest you stay away before it makes your brain explode.

maybe a little late, but thanks for updating the guide for 1.20

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Originally Posted by Penguin

The problem with what you are saying Murugan and it was the same with your perfect DH rotation is that on paper it seems perfect atleast to you but when put into practice never works the way you think it should, for example what happens when you bring 4 archers and 1 of the archers Bloodletters comes off cooldown 5 seconds before the others and procs the dot? you not only lose the 20 seconds from 3 archers but you than lose another 35 seconds of blood letter damage for the 2 archers that don't apply the dot next, than what happens when that 2nd archer misses and you lose another 5-6 seconds waiting for the 3rd archer to apply it.

Can you not see how this starts to become overcomplicated and wasteful for a very minor amount of damage?

Again as has been said by me and carraway in previous posts if you are running with 1-2 archers which seems to be the way you do the fight than yes rotating bloodletters is obviously going to be much more beneficial than spamming cooldowns, pretty sure carraway even said he would be adding it to the main pages guide so people aren't confused.

When you are running with mostly archers though as we do and other LS's do than rotating bloodletters just begins to become overcomplicated and maximising groupwide dps would be more beneficial with a spam cooldowns type of rotation as has been stated.

Either way this discussion seems to be going round in circles and is getting extremely boring to read.

You have your way of doing dps and it seems to work for you we have ours and it works for us, if you don't want to read carraways guide because you feel you are better and have no need for our flawed way of doing things i suggest you stay away before it makes your brain explode.

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Why is there all that lost time between the archers like it is some chain reaction that will result in you never using bloodletter again? This is bloodletter we are talking about not Shadowbind, you can't negate the DoT you can only overwrite it. At most it would be 15 seconds, because they would never fire bloodletter one at a time to see if each one inflicted bleed (assuming all their timers were perfectly aligned which I'm sure yours are).

People make a decision in the moment. It's not complicated, obviously if the difference is only 5 seconds that is only 16% of the DoT duration. So of 571 damage that is only 91 damage. However it is halfway through or longer, we are talking about a significant amount of damage. Including most likely (more likely than the loss of a bloodletter front end damage through the course of the entire fight) the loss of the entire 570 additional damage if you proc and push the DoT fade back too far.

Plus if we aren't talking about Whiskwerwall at the end, (which if we are again the high defense makes the additional damage something to prioritize) If you have a Bloodletter DoT on a mob with low health which is not going to last another 30 seconds, switch targets. Let Bloodletter do its thing, switching targets is hardly "complicated" and you can get the full effect of both your Bloodletters that way.

It's overkill, and this is a multi-mob fight where that hurts you.

lol @ this discussion apparently being us actually agreeing but getting stuck on wrong assumptions and wording.

Yes Bloodletter enfeeb is important and can be useful. Yes keeping up with cooldowns is important. Based on the situation one finds himself in, one is often more important than the other.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol @ this discussion apparently being us actually agreeing but getting stuck on wrong assumptions and wording.

Yes Bloodletter enfeeb is important and can be useful. Yes keeping up with cooldowns is important. Based on the situation one finds himself in, one is often more important than the other.

That is all.

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The term based on the situation is unfortunately incompatible with infallible rotation. So you have the last 2-3 pages. As far as I'm concerned it represents the underlying dichotomy in the majority of these endgame discussions.

It's kind of a small topic compared to the debate over battle regimen, but it's the same conflict.

You're misconstruing the idea behind my guide, Murugan. I'm not telling people what to do; I'm showing people how to look at prioritizing. A guide is a tool, not a dictum. That's why I include numerous disclaimers about works-in-progress, critical thinking, and adapting to various situations. I'm not sure where you're getting this "infallible rotation" idea from.

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Originally Posted by carraway

You're misconstruing the idea behind my guide, Murugan. I'm not telling people what to do; I'm showing people how to look at prioritizing. A guide is a tool, not a dictum. That's why I include numerous disclaimers about works-in-progress, critical thinking, and adapting to various situations. I'm not sure where you're getting this "infallible rotation" idea from.

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The numerous times you and Penguin have brought up maintaining the rotation as ultimately the best tactic.

I've updated the guide to account for a few things, including the Bloodletter discussion and Blood for Blood testing.

I think the best possible dps rotation would be for each archer to see how close to the end of the bleed effect they can reapply the dot so it never expires, that way not only do you lose the 570 damage from the dot expiring but annoy every archer in your group who wants to see that bloodletter super damage combo tick.

So hey, how about those stats? Any further testing yield interesting results? I need to allot my Archer points but I don't want to screw it up ;-;

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Originally Posted by Arcell

So hey, how about those stats? Any further testing yield interesting results? I need to allot my Archer points but I don't want to screw it up ;-;

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Pretty sure DEX and PIE are doing more for Archer than any other stat by a longshot as far as damage output goes - and damage output is all you need to care about on a class like archer. Only other thing would be MP for BRD, but that we already get from PIE.

I heard that 1 STR is the same as adding 1 ATK for ARCs, has this been confirmed? If so, would Rainmaker's Tunic be a viable body slot option? With 6 STR (counting as 6 attack) and 4 attack power, it would have 10 attack power.

I speculated that that might be the case, but I haven't confirmed it at all.

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Originally Posted by carraway

I speculated that that might be the case, but I haven't confirmed it at all.

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Theres a post somewhere of someone going no rings, str rings, then dex rings and noted the 21 STR was +20 damage per hit, and then +21 DEX was an additional 20 damage. Would mean DEX = 200% increase over STR.

That would make the formula 2 DEX = 3 ATK = 4 STR, making STR the worst DPS stat to probably focus on then but if you can't attain a DEX / ATK / PIE item in any slot, STR would still be viable to increase DPS just not as much.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Pretty sure DEX and PIE are doing more for Archer than any other stat by a longshot as far as damage output goes - and damage output is all you need to care about on a class like archer. Only other thing would be MP for BRD, but that we already get from PIE.

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So then would 23 dex/22 piety be a viable allotment? Just don't want to do it and then find out I've shot myself in the foot so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

So then would 23 dex/22 piety be a viable allotment? Just don't want to do it and then find out I've shot myself in the foot so to speak.

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That is exactly what I've done. Don't regret it one bit.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

That is exactly what I've done. Don't regret it one bit.

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Alright thanks, glad to hear it :3

23/22 here as well, str doesnt do anything for archers

Great guide, thank you very much!

I have a suggestion. I see every single archer eating different foods at the moment, maybe you could add something about recommended foods?

I personally have no idea if I'm doing it right either, but I've been eating Tomato Pie for the Dexterity Bonus (according to some 500 year old guide I found).

Once again, thank you :)

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Originally Posted by totallynotme

Great guide, thank you very much!

I have a suggestion. I see every single archer eating different foods at the moment, maybe you could add something about recommended foods?

I personally have no idea if I'm doing it right either, but I've been eating Tomato Pie for the Dexterity Bonus (according to some 500 year old guide I found).

Once again, thank you :)

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Carraway wont be back until after new year so sadly he wont be able to update the guide for a while.

On the topic of food we personally haven't even looked at food in any detail yet since its getting a major overhaul next patch hopefully so i personally have no idea what the most optimal food is right now, any suggestions would be nice since i still just use jerked beef even though it most likely does very little :p