Myth Message being used to excluded players

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Multiple people in my group had cleared already, yet still died when that happened. The point I'm making is that experience doesn't mean someone won't die in a fight for whatever reason.

Heck, in one Levi EX run I did, the very first person to fall off the boat? Was the person with the Levi weapon who had cleared it numerous times.

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Luna, I relate to this post here, especially after this weekend of failed healers and tanks that were all over or at least an ilvl average of 115.

Sasatasha HM. Had a SCH that had 115 ilvl that just could not stay alive during the kraken fight. We wiped 4 times before finally beating it.

T2 there was a decked out tank that took a melee group the mage way when we had one BLM on the team and the rest were NIN/MNK. Oh I forgot to add, we wiped... because the tank wanted to charge before the clicks were done.

T2 again ilvl 120 everything scholar decided to DPS at ADS in cleric stance with Selene on auto...

Qarn HM... I was pretty disgusted here with the tank I got. He sounded alot like Ellatrix with her elitism stating "I've cleared t1-9 don't tell me how to tank" Oh yeh? Then why the hell are you wearing healer accessories and your friggin HP damn near equal mine and I am the WHM?" We had to abandon, due to the numerous wipes at the cactuar & last boss...

A lvl 105 tank in Haukke NM rotation: stun, fast blade, RoH, RoH, stun, fast blade, RoH... I was so conflicted here and looked at his data to see if he was new or what... he had a lvl 50 WAR SCH & SMN as well as his PLD... then I thought he was trolling, nope. He said this is how he was taught to play and then he ran the basement mob all the way back to the beginning and RQ'd when I told him the healer is dying and he needs to use flash in mobs to hold hate. Oh btw he too blabbered something about completing coil as a scapegoat.

The list really goes on...

I just find it funny those that hide behind "Coil clears" think they are the best of the best but can't hold their own in a dungeon. I find it EQUALLY as funny that people that have coil clears keep saying "I" cleared coil. Oh yeh? Solo it and youtube it then you can say "you" cleared it. Cause as far as I am concerned with gameplay like I listed above, whether you sell runs or have all coils cleared, that means absolutely nothing other than you were on a team of competent players, sure you could be one of those competent players, but you yourself, did not and I repeat, DID NOT clear coil BY. YOUR. SELF.

End of story... Get off the high horse and touch the green grass of earth for a change.

Sometimes in that situation it really could be a matter of them being dungeon "competent" but not really knowing how to play their job. You can know the fight but not know how to tank properly or how to handle tank swapping. So it's not always black-and-white answer, especially with experienced players who are playing non-main jobs that they have the most experience with. Doesn't make it an excuse though, as they have plenty of avenues to become familiar with the job.

Personally I'm fine with message/bonus if they cleared it once on any job. You can run through duties and at-least have an idea how other jobs do their roles. Some just aren't good at picking it up right away.

I just wanted to make further counterargument to the idea that bonus messages are to be that filter for farming parties. Yes, generally you'd want experienced clears in one, but just yesterday, I set up a PF group for a T5 farm (I REALLY want those Allagan Daggers), and an FC member who'd asked me to help him get a group to clear (which I was planning to do after, but he saw and joined), as well as another party member's friend who needed a clear came along. I had trained my FC member up to Twisters (and in a "proud parent" kinda way, was delighted to find out he'd actively learned the rest on his own time), and - elitists and exclusionists please read this part - took a chance on the random new person who was invited. . .

One. Shot. Kill.

That Soldiery bonus - as the incentive it was designed to be - was icing on that oh-so-delicious T5 clear cake. :)

I'm so glad you were able to one-shot T5 with 20% echo and over 30 ilvl worth of gear from what it was designed at, a fight that has been repeatedly killed with 4 people, with only one mechanic to worry about at a time, and all the new guy has to do is basically not kill anyone with divebombs or twisters even if they get themselves killed.

Also based on reading your post I don't see any true "random" people in there.

Meanwhile, over in "elitist and exclusionary" land, I did 7 T7 and 11 T9 with only a single wipe caused by a derp moment in one afternoon the other day, and this included running with at least a few people I had to filter in via PF. Go figure getting experienced people makes sense for farming!

Like a moth to flame, I expected you, Ellatrix. And hey, good for you! I've lost count of how much I've run and cleared T7 in the last 3 weeks alone (I personally want the heal robe, my FC lead is farming who knows what through the DF). I've also been learning 9, one-shotting 6-8 with all kinda of weird party setups (melted T6 with a 2 tank, 1 heal by accident today, oh and I'M the new one to T8 BTW) with people - really good people - I met just yesterday. But hey, why get all specific? 20% Echo? 30 ilvls higher? Come on, don't split hairs. You're better than that. Fact is, pure and simple - a farm group (which BTW I didn't know anyone there other than my FC member, so let's toss that little nitpick out) with 2 bonus message players cleared T5, oh and I - brand new, the bonus message player this time - also cleared T8 with a group I only met when I joined a T9 learning party in progress.

But hey, your way works for you. It's not broke, so don't fix it. I on the other hand am going to keep learning what I need to, doing what I can, and pretty much proving that what either of us do isn't so impossible, new or not.



P.S. I'm going to be fecetious enough to ask, why did you of all people not only chime in first, but also quote my "elitist and exclusionist" quip? I mean, I KNOW why, but I am just being snarky by both pointing it out and asking why.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm so glad you were able to one-shot T5 with 20% echo and over 30 ilvl worth of gear from what it was designed at, a fight that has been repeatedly killed with 4 people, with only one mechanic to worry about at a time, and all the new guy has to do is basically not kill anyone with divebombs or twisters even if they get themselves killed.

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Wow. Way to rain in on someone's parade. You must be a joy to be around at parties.

Congrats to ThirdChild's FC friend on the T5 win!

And now that you yourself have stated that clearing T5 is not a big deal anymore, I guess this means you'd have no issues with seeing the bonus tomes message.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm so glad you were able to one-shot T5 with 20% echo and over 30 ilvl worth of gear from what it was designed at, a fight that has been repeatedly killed with 4 people, with only one mechanic to worry about at a time, and all the new guy has to do is basically not kill anyone with divebombs or twisters even if they get themselves killed.

Also based on reading your post I don't see any true "random" people in there.

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You know, sometimes I wonder about your train of thought, Ellatrix. You strike me as the type of person that strongly believes that you are the ultimate, that you know it all when it comes to anything, even when multiple people tell you that you are wrong. I'm sure if I stated that humans breathe air to survive, you'd argue that we breathe another substance...

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Meanwhile, over in "elitist and exclusionary" land, I did 7 T7 and 11 T9 with only a single wipe caused by a derp moment in one afternoon the other day, and this included running with at least a few people I had to filter in via PF. Go figure getting experienced people makes sense for farming!

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A single wipe, huh? If it was your mistake, I'm sure you would not admit it as you are perfect and don't make mistakes because you've cleared coils and know the strats before they were even released or designed. A wipe is a wipe, deal with it.

About the "Experienced" people remark you made: You've contradicted yourself many times over in this very thread, but let's toss some salt and lemon juice on the already open wound.

Do you believe that because a person has a clear that they are indeed experienced? From all of your recent and past posts, your answer is yes...

Problem with that is, you yourself said you sell runs, right? Again from your recent and past posts (gloats more like it) your answer again is Yes

Selling runs mean you accept those with 0-99% experience, that would technically be carried by your whole team. Whether they participate or lie dead the whole coil.

Soooooooo, by your logic: You sold run to x player who lie dead in T5, but because he/she paid you/your team, they are guaranteed a clear. You setup a farm PF and said player joins it months later and you forgot that your team "carried" him/her. Now you would allow that person on your farm PF rather than someone that held their own and has experience with the fight but did not get the clear, just because the bonus tome message did not display? If you answer No to that, you will contradict yourself again, but I expect you to as that is your nature. You are a walking contradiction...

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Meanwhile, over in "elitist and exclusionary" land, I did 7 T7 and 11 T9 with only a single wipe caused by a derp moment in one afternoon the other day, and this included running with at least a few people I had to filter in via PF. Go figure getting experienced people makes sense for farming!

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And I was just in a T7 farm that hit enrage at 1% because the BRD was dead 80% of the time, someone turned Voice around on half the party, and the OT kept tanking the adds within range of Melusine's Circle Blade and forcing the melee DPS to run away from that on top of the Circle Blade from the adds.

Oh, and there was no 100 soldiery message, meaning that all of these people had cleared it before. So much for experience.

Your party was obviously not "elitist or exclusionary".

It's so funny to see Ellatrix only respond with short and simple answers and always to a post where she could pick a fight or avoid the truth/facts about something to only prove further that she does not know what she is talking about 100% of the time.

True facts...

Personally, I'm happy to see my legacy live on with that "elitist/exclusionary" bit.

Oh yeah, just setup a PF for T5 and cleared it, one-shot, got my Allagan Daggers AND got 3 people their first clears. . . They kinda snuck in, but totally pulled it off flawlessly.

I'd say that's a good way to start the day :)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Personally, I'm happy to see my legacy live on with that "elitist/exclusionary" bit.

Oh yeah, just setup a PF for T5 and cleared it, one-shot, got my Allagan Daggers AND got 3 people their first clears. . . They kinda snuck in, but totally pulled it off flawlessly.

I'd say that's a good way to start the day :)

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*waits under a large umbrella with popcorn for the 20% echo buff and completing content meant for older ilvls to rain on the parade once more*

PS grats ThirdChild.

Killing it once means you have clear experience, but it does not mean you have mastery experience. I only said that having clear experience means you're very likely going to do better than someone who did not, but I never said clearing it once means you're going to flawlessly kill it over and over again. When I build parties to farm, you need significantly more than simple clear experience for that very reason.

Also, posting small anecdotes doesn't counter my argument since I'm talking in the general sense.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Killing it once means you have clear experience, but it does not mean you have mastery experience. I only said that having clear experience means you're very likely going to do better than someone who did not, but I never said clearing it once means you're going to flawlessly kill it over and over again. When I build parties to farm, you need significantly more than simple clear experience for that very reason.

Also, posting small anecdotes doesn't counter my argument since I'm talking in the general sense.

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Now you are rewording what you actually said in the beginning and past posts that you were quoted on and called out on several times over. I'm too lazy to go back and find them, but I have a pretty decent memory to recall the BS you posted about myth messages etc, so I will take a stab at it.

In the very beginning you mentioned that "If you think you are entitled to join a farm party without a clear, that's hilarious" or something to that effect.

Given that YOU said that, my post on the previous page is not an anecdote, but merely a scenario that I was totally 100% correct on in posting your idea of the "people" allowed on your Farm teams. The only requirement was that they needed a clear. That came from you, not me. Now you go on about mastery and when you build PF players need significantly more than a simple clear. Oooh Kayyy...

So how do YOU gauge this? There is not myth message, but yet you'd kick a player or abandon the farm, without even considering you have someone that could be on an alt that has many clears on their main OR actually are better or as good as those on your farm, but was just unfortunate enough to get the worse team match ups via DF.

EDIT: Ah found it. And I was spot on

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

The 100 soldiery bonus is simply the easiest way to see if someone has or has not cleared a fight before. Sure, some can get carried but it's still a really easy metric and a really easy one to use before the fight even starts.

If you think you're entitled to join a farm party without clearing it, that's hilarious. Go build your own 'farm' PF consisting of only people who claim to have had the boss to 1~5% and then tell me how well you do.

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EDIT FURTHER:

And yeh, no on your comment that "clear" Experience means they will do better than those that don't. I've already given you a counter argument for that based off your post on selling runs, but I will list it again for you:

1. The person was dead the whole coil and got awarded the clear with no participation

Go read up on "10,000 hours to mastery" and get told by experts how wrong you are.

Also not once in this thread have I said that merely having clear is enough to join my party finder.

Your party or otherwise, that's not the point. I don't need to read up on your referrence as what I state pretty much counters what you said. Let's give this one more go but this time I will use less words and bold the point I am making which makes your argument moot.

Having a CLEAR on anything, be it dungeon, coil, primal, DOES NOT equate that you have experience. It simply means you have a clear, nothing more...

If I lie dead in T9 and walk away from my controller and come back in 15-20 minutes without even viewing a glimpse of the fight, I come back to get my loot and exit the dungeon, am I experienced or do I simply have a clear?

The majority of people do not get carried through fights while dead. So no, your point is moot.

Or maybe you're an expert in getting carried while dead? If you just sit there dead the entire time and get clears, then I will defer to your wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Killing it once means you have clear experience, but it does not mean you have mastery experience. I only said that having clear experience means you're very likely going to do better than someone who did not, but I never said clearing it once means you're going to flawlessly kill it over and over again. When I build parties to farm, you need significantly more than simple clear experience for that very reason.

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By that same logic, then you yourself are no master of the things you've done. You cleared Final Coil roughly one month ago. Even assuming that you've done it at least once each week since then, that would only amount to at least 5 or 6 clears. That's not mastery, if anything it's proficiency. And it'd be a bit unrealistic to think that you've not only pulled it off each week, but done so proficiently each time. But hey, I'm willing to be wrong on that one.

So we've shifted from "full HA gear/weapons" to "mastery" of said instances, however the "mastery" seems based on the amount of raid gear you have. . . Well, I can say I've cleared T7 more times in a day than I have T5, and yet STILL don't have the one item I want for the class I main there. I've got plenty of other things, including gear for classes I generally don't use much. To say I would be allowed in a farm party due to having HA gear on a class I barely play would imply I've mastered playing that role in said instance. . . THAT would be a big flaw in your argument.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

The majority of people do not get carried through fights while dead. So no, your point is moot.

Or maybe you're an expert in getting carried while dead? If you just sit there dead the entire time and get clears, then I will defer to your wisdom.

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Typical Ellatrix... begin losing an argument and result to poor attempts at a slam. Ok. When you hit me with something a little harder than a cottonball, then I will acknowledge you and hit back, until then, back to the matter at hand.

If I paid you for a clear, which I never would pay anyone for one as I like to participate and feel accomplishment when I help clear coils, dungeons ex primals etc., you don't demand me to participate, I just expect my clear. So I am betting you get heavily irritated in allowing said person to kill your team with divebombs, twisters w/e so you'd rather they stay dead, so that you can get through it faster and collect your gil, right?

Don't try to take me for a fool. I know what anyone would do to be efficient and not spend their whole day training a random in T5, since he/she paid for a clear, not a lesson/training, and I'm sure there are other things you'd like to go on to than to sit in T5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 and let him/her Manderville next to the tank/healers during the twister phase.

Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

A party leader should not be using the notification of soldiery bonus equals a kick from a group in the requirements and I have explained why multiple times already.

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If the PF party maker puts requirement that a clear is necessary, then they have every right to remove someone who makes the 100 soldiery bonus pop up. Why? Because they put a requirement, the person did not meet that requirement. PF leaders party PF leaders rules and, from official posts, if you do not follow those rules you agreed to by joining then it is a reportable offence.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it.

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I get it now :) You can no longer sneak into farm parties due to the soldiery mesasage giving it away. So you are taking out your frustration on the forums.

Making your own PF party is a no go as you would have to put in some effort to learn the fight and not just get carried by an unaware farm party. XD

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

That's fine and all, but I hadn't mentioned coil at all, I can understand apprehension about it in coil groups. I'm talking about, more than "rarely" as stated by Grekumah, I have seen people flip out about it in -main scenario- roulette, where 1 bad person will not cause group wipes. That can be done with just 3 or 4 people, easily. But because that message comes up, they start ragging on anyone not in relic/coil weapons for being shitty because it's their first time. Yes. It does happen. Personally, I fish for the bonus in every dungeon/roulette I do. Others do not look at it as we do though.

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Never seen that on EU server DF.

Must be a US thing.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I get it now :) You can no longer sneak into farm parties due to the soldiery mesasage giving it away. So you are taking out your frustration on the forums.

Making your own PF party is a no go as you would have to put in some effort to learn the fight and not just get carried by an unaware farm party. XD

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Actually you don't get it at all... Try going back to page one;post one and see that the MAIN topic was never about PF, buty specifically about people that utilize the bonus tomes message as a gauge for player skill/experience. It's really never been about PF until Ellatrix came in here claiming that this is due to people sneaking on PF. I am in agreement PF = party creators rules, but to utilize this method in DF, that's where the line should be drawn...

And please, have a tad bit more class than trying to insult someone by accusing them of trying to work their way on to a farm PF, which again was never the topic of this discussion. Snugglebutt has only voiced her opinion...

So with the latest patch allowing people to buy and sell clear flags for T10 and beyond, are people still deluded enough to think that having a clear is any signifier of skill or experience in this game?

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Originally Posted by Krr

So with the latest patch allowing people to buy and sell clear flags for T10 and beyond, are people still deluded enough to think that having a clear is any signifier of skill or experience in this game?

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Couldn't have worded any better myself...

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Originally Posted by Krr

So with the latest patch allowing people to buy and sell clear flags for T10 and beyond, are people still deluded enough to think that having a clear is any signifier of skill or experience in this game?

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Someone who has not cleared still hasn't cleared it. Someone who has at least has a pretty good chance of knowing how to do their part of the fight and not kill the raid. The people who buy/get carried remains a minority.

That seems to be an important fact lost upon many. If you haven't cleared it, you still haven't cleared it.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Someone who has not cleared still hasn't cleared it. Someone who has at least has a pretty good chance of knowing how to do their part of the fight and not kill the raid. The people who buy/get carried remains a minority.

That seems to be an important fact lost upon many. If you haven't cleared it, you still haven't cleared it.

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A clear does not equate experience. THAT'S the point, Ellatrix, regardless if you think the carried are a minority...

And not having a clear means you don't have a clear, so you probably don't have sufficient experience to clear.

Having a clear means you probably have experience.

The outliers on both remain a minority case.

No they don't... I like how you can speak for other worlds as if you have access for the numbers of players that are actually carried through paid runs and doing so without ANY fight experience. Come with facts, not what ifs, buts and probabilities... The fact remains in black & white but let's bold it again so you can see it clearly...

A CLEAR DOES NOT EQUAL EXPERIENCE. PERIOD.

I joined an Ifrit Extreme farm the other day, I hadn't gotten the clear.

I'm an i112 WHM, had been farming second coil before it all got nerfed. I like to think i'm pretty good at reacting to what's happening.

Of course, SOL message appeared, i put my hands up. 3/4 of the team instantly left and made a new party.

Those of us who remained then went in again, and i cleared first time, no issues.

Clear does not equal skill. Just because people haven't cleared something yet, doesn't mean they are incapable.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Someone who has not cleared still hasn't cleared it.

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Circular logic is circular logic, therefore your logic is circular.

Anyone who doesn't think the majority of solo-pubbie clears for old content aren't run purchases or carries these days are out of their freakin' mind or on really backwater servers. A run on Excal costs a couple million, which you can get in a few hours of playing the spiritbond lottery or just being a competent melded 50 crafter with access to starred recipes. A majority of pug relics in 2.0 were paid titan HM runs. Etc, etc. It's literally the most time efficient way to remove that magical message - you think anyone in their right mind is actually spending 2 hours on their server's PF trying to get a 'learning group' to fill 7 slots? Hell naw.

Hell, the week before FCOB came out, before the lockout was even removed, do you know what the majority of Excal PF was? Rotating groups selling T9 runs, advertising that they'd 'get you prepared' or 'catch you up' for FCOB. And boy howdy, did it work, because ain't no one nowhere with half a brain ready to admit that they're 'learning' T9.

But I mean, whatever logic boosts your sales, right?

You can keep thinking that.

Meanwhile, I've farmed up every item from SCoB (in addition to every item from first coil 6 months ago at the start of 2.2) using the idea that clearing it means you're experienced and using that crazy idea to build parties with pugs that go on to kill the thing reliably.

Come back when you have some sort of significant experience at building successful parties if you wish to continue this debate. Until then, practical experience dictates that people with clears are typically going to be more experienced than those who do not have a clear.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You can keep thinking that.

Meanwhile, I've farmed up every item from SCoB (in addition to every item from first coil 6 months ago at the start of 2.2) using the idea that clearing it means you're experienced and using that crazy idea to build parties with pugs that go on to kill the thing reliably.

Come back when you have some sort of significant experience at building successful parties if you wish to continue this debate. Until then, practical experience dictates that people with clears are typically going to be more experienced than those who do not have a clear.

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How about considering applying your own logic to yourself that YOU are the minority of this topic of clear = experience? Sounds more reasonable, right? Because if clears really meant experience, then many people would be doing coils and EX Primals in DF with no issues or a single complaint and there'd be no need for PF.

Use your brain for once Ellatrix and stop acting like you are the know it all, when you really don't know anything past what you've done.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You can keep thinking that.

Meanwhile, I've farmed up every item from SCoB (in addition to every item from first coil 6 months ago at the start of 2.2) using the idea that clearing it means you're experienced and using that crazy idea to build parties with pugs that go on to kill the thing reliably.

Come back when you have some sort of significant experience at building successful parties if you wish to continue this debate. Until then, practical experience dictates that people with clears are typically going to be more experienced than those who do not have a clear.

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Hi, remember me? The exception to the rule. I've pugged and cleared things, I've PFed and cleared, and I found a reliable new static by joining an in-progress T9 learning party. Hell, I just started tanking SCoB (because I finally stopped neglecting my PLD and geared it) without ever having tried before - though I will partially agree with you (Ellatrix) that I can do so mainly due to having experience (and clears) as a DPS and healer there.

I agree, but the concept of buying/selling clears and the like does fly in the way of that idea. But you DID say typically, so there's that.

You do realize that the entire human race is built upon the concept that experience makes you better at something right? So no I'm not the minority.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You do realize that the entire human race is built upon the concept that experience makes you better at something right? So no I'm not the minority.

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You do realize that your statement reads: experience makes you better at something and not,

A clear makes you better at something....

You are stating something totally different than what you have been in these last 20 something pages...

It took you those same 20 pages to realize that clear =/= experience, but rather experience = experience. Good Job! :)

Except.. you're still wrong.

Someone without a clear has a zero chance of having clear experience.

Someone with a clear has a non-zero chance of having clear experience.

And that non-zero chance is going to be >51% unless you're going to tell me now that half the player base got carried or bought a win from <1% of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Except.. you're still wrong.

Someone without a clear has a zero chance of having clear experience.

Someone with a clear has a non-zero chance of having clear experience.

And that non-zero chance is going to be >51% unless you're going to tell me now that half the player base got carried or bought a win from <1% of the player base.

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TBH I don't know why I even bothered to respond to this, but whatever... Keep rewording what you've been arguing all you like Ellatrix. You've been proven wrong on many occasions. But I'll humor you and let you know how wrong you are.

Someone on an alt without a clear that has completed said coil/dungeon/trial on their main will have the same probability to complete the content as they did on their main. So you're wrong, once again...

Oh forgot to add, they won't get a chance because they'll get the boot before you even allow them to run with your party... Sorry forgot that little detail.

I just want to say that this is the first post I've put on this thread so far.