Cure I isn't useless, it's good when you are balancing threat gain, mp conservation, and healing output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
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09-07-2014, 02:57 AMMagis
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09-07-2014, 02:57 AMJynxQuote:
Originally Posted by Velox
The game is so "Basic" right now not because they want room to grow it's because basic is simlple to control and balance. Unique gameplay elements can play out unpredictably and turn into things that were not planned (FFXI Ninja for example was originally built as a damage dealer, but became a tank due to players learning to skillfully utilize shadows)
It's a shame I'd prefer more unique gameplay elements and reactionary abillities. The game is currently rotation oriented instead of thought oriented. -
09-07-2014, 02:58 AMMagisDon't see how new gameplay being created by the players themselves is a bad thing. Heck, most of the coil strats are different from how SE intended it (T6 with super slugs for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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09-07-2014, 03:28 AMJynxI'm not saying it is a bad thing, it's just something the dev team seems to be clearly avoiding at all costs. Even if it means boiling all classes down to the most basic template of Tank, DPS, HealQuote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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09-07-2014, 03:38 AMAegisYes. God forbid the playerbase experiment and learn to do things in a way devs don't expect. Thank god that hasn't happened yet in this version of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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09-07-2014, 03:42 AMjObEfiSH
OMG, do any of you even REMEMBER the gameplay and class/job abilities of FFXI in the very first year of it's release before expansions and the other jobs that were added?
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09-07-2014, 04:16 AMAegisSince that was JP only imma go ahead and say .... no?Quote:
Originally Posted by jObEfiSH
Also, XIV has been out 4 years now. By 4 years, XI was pretty swingin' -
09-07-2014, 04:16 AMMoqiIf you're talking about FFXIV, yeah, I know :/ That was my point, we don't need 6 spells that do the exact same thing, two are enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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09-07-2014, 04:35 AMLisotte
Oh boy do I miss my PUP from FFXI... I have found that no other class in any MMO is quite like it.
lolPUP main for life! -
09-07-2014, 05:31 AMSanne4 years ago when I played, the game looked different, how classes worked were different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
We now at 1st years anniversary of FFXIV: ARR
So I don't agree it is 4 years old. Too much has changed from 1.0 to 2.0.
You pretty much sum up how I think about FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilthas
I did loved FFXI, mostly of the very nice people I encountered, not so much by gameplay. Did love BLU and PUP, because they were actually the 2 jobs as you said, that you actually could play in different ways.
So Risvertasashi, I also hope for more jobs that are the dept of PUP and BLU.
But is it really worth to create an advanced system, when you know that 95% of the player base will Google for the best way and ignore the rest?
It is a sad thing, but I can understand a company decides to not go for such system. -
09-07-2014, 05:54 AMScootalooThe sad fact is this, due to the failure of 1.0(Where they were very creative and VERY ambitious in their MMO design)the developers for FFXIV are scared, no, TERRIFIED to try anything ambitious or creative for fear of having a 1.0 repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
As it stands, the devs are sitting in a "safe zone" as it were. No one can scream of complain because "everyone's equal". Hence the "Lack of depth" as you say in jobs and classes. As long as they allow this fear to hold them back, nothing will change and the MMO will continue to go in this direction. -
09-07-2014, 05:56 AMAegisMy character is 4 years old. Your argument is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanne
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09-07-2014, 06:13 AMabzoluut
I would very much like way more depth.
It would be nice if we get an in-depth response why they chose not to go this path. The only thing I have read is because of how this game needs to be new to MMO/FFXIV friendly. We got the same argument for 3.0. Notice how 3.0 will be available about 16 + months after launch. One would think most of the new players already joined. If they did not, it should be a great opportunity for them to introduce depth into the game so the new players can adapt right away.
I'd put my money on lack of time. They try to stick with the 3ish months patch promise. There is not much room for overhauling, but that hope though. -
09-07-2014, 06:43 AMVeloxYes but FFXIV is brand new. For all intents and purposes the original FFXIV is dead and buried. Virtually the game is only 1 year old. There is still much growth to be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
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09-07-2014, 06:50 AMZumiThey got rid of most everything from 1.0 and started over. They basically give you a boosted 2.0 character. The game is 1 year old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
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09-07-2014, 07:16 AMAlukahI thought 1.x failed because they took XI as a reference, for me it seems like they tried to make a "better" version of XI changing things they wouldn't be able to change in the original game without upsetting a large amount of players, but just like if XI was released today it would fail miserably, so did 1.x, so for ARR they drew ideas and concepts from (and I quote) "Ultima Online, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Rift, Star Wars: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2".Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
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09-07-2014, 07:23 AMAegisQuote:
Originally Posted by Velox
Same lore. Same regions. Same races. Same classes. Same jobs. Same monsters. Same NPCs. Same animations (albeit speeded up, and some lost). Same servers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
It's a stretch to call it a new game. SWG was changed far more for the NGE, but it was still SWG. -
09-07-2014, 07:26 AMrwyan1.0 failed because it had some great ideas and concepts but none were actually fleshed out or working fully. It was almost as if they reached a point where the game was working to some degree and decided to launch it versus iterating and polishing its ideas. If anything FF14 1.0 was more inspired from games like SWG and UO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
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09-07-2014, 07:42 AMAmberionAt the very first stages of the planning, then yes. But it quickly shifted to the concept of not FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
Then came the fact that Tanaka was forced to use a game engine that was not meant for that type of game. After that, the top decided it was good idea to release it before it was finished so it could compete with WoWs expansion.
And your proof of that is? And don't bring up bad games that had somewhat similar game play., since bad games are just bad games.Quote:
but just like if XI was released today it would fail miserably
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09-07-2014, 08:12 AMEstevoYou are correct to an extent. Yoshida has stated in multiple interviews that he's going to play it simple and safe for a year or two to come, just to set up the fanbase, the world, and give it a good amount of content, I'm sure also to give the team time to think of creative systems as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
So as much as I believe they should stop playing it safe, I believe they will when they feel the time is right. -
09-07-2014, 08:17 AMJynxIf by reference you mean they purposlfully made a game the exact oposite of XI you mean? Tanaka was quoted as saying he wanted to make something as different from XI as possible to avoid making a XI-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
If your going to toss out facts please check them first.
From a famitsu interview on the subject of how Tanaka felt on the subject of development direction.
Quote:
"The trigger for me thinking about leaving was getting removed from the Final Fantasy XIV project," Tanaka told Famitsu. "I helped mold Final Fantasy XI into one of the best MMO formats on the market, and I wanted to respect the wishes of the team as much as possible when they wanted to make something different with FFXIV, so I tried my best not to meddle too much with development. In the end they weren't able to realize what they were aiming for, which is a shame, but I wish them the best of luck with the reboot."
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09-07-2014, 08:26 AMAnapingofnessNot to mention that one of the biggest things that gated people was RNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamimarik
Here we have a couple of things that are RNG (namely Atma) and people are up in arms over how unfair it is.
In XI, pretty much everything endgame was RNG.
Yes, I'd like the game to have more "depth" but I wouldn't call this game bad. So far I like the story and the characters in it. Also if they do add more "depth" I'd prefer if they left the RNG to a minimum.
On an off note, Marik, I think the likelihood of XIV getting Dancer is pretty high. Dancer seems to fit XIV style fairly well. ^^
T_T Sadly, the job I wanted won't be added... v-v; -
09-07-2014, 08:53 AMTupsiConsidering XI is one of the most successful MMOs to come out and one of SE's most financially successful titles? No, it didn't fail for taking XI as a 'reference' (so much hate towards XI by XIv players lol.) 1.0 failed for these two reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
1. It was unfinished.
2. It was on an engine not designed to run MMORPGs.
FFXI was built from the ground up on a custom engine - something they decided to do for ARR while maintaining most of 1.x's content and systems. So those who say they get rid of most everything from 1.0 didn't play it past September 2010.
So if they truly did use XI as a reference, it wouldn't have failed because they would have known better. -
09-07-2014, 04:38 PMPandastirfryDude, seriously... 1.0 was ended, the lore from it concluded. The servers were shut down (heck even the forums were too) a new beta and client was released... Stop being obtuseQuote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
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09-07-2014, 05:06 PMTupsi^ This is the proper use of sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandastirfry
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09-07-2014, 05:27 PMAlukahI don't know if I'm reading between lines but looks like it's the team that wanted something different, not Tanaka. In his words he tried to stay away and respect the team but that's just his words, what actually happened and why he got removed from the FFXIV team is another thing. His choice of words leaves a lot to interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
I know you take all XI / 1.0 topics personal, as there's no day you don't spend with the rose tinted glasses on mentioning either, but I doubt that outdated game would do well if it was released today, it had its time back then before MMOs became mainstream, but today if that same game was released under today's standard it wouldn't do well, like it or not. Those many changes people criticize that "drove away the core playerbase" would be necessary to even attempt to compete with today's mmo market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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09-07-2014, 05:37 PMScootalooThe problem with that is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Estevo
The longer the game sits in its current state, the harder the recoil is going to be when they DO add depth and variation amongst the classes. As it stands, 80% of the playerbase hails from the WoW Playerbase/forums due to the game's current simplicity and "easy mode" content which most WoW Players are used to and enjoy.
Just look at the recoil the EX-modes, Atma, and coils have had. Most players to even attempt and beat most EX battles, coil turns, and farm the Atma hail from the 20% of the playerbase that don't derive from WoW. You may think me biased but I'm not. I USED TO BE ONE OF THEM. So I know WoW in and out. However once I picked up FFXI, I dropped WoW like a bad habit. Yes, I hold some resentment for the game(not going to get into why) but that has no impact on the above stated facts.
My point is this: The sooner they get creative again and add depth to the classes and games, the less severe the backlash is going to be. -
09-07-2014, 05:39 PMLemuriaSo is mine, but it's nothing like it was when I started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
My conjurer used to have every elemental spell, including 'ancient magic' like Quake. Thaumaturge had drains and siphons. Crafting leves gave you all the necessary materials in advance. It was a different world back then, and our characters were worlds apart from what they are now. To say it's the same character is like saying my Lalafell is the same as my FFXI tarutaru. Hint, they're not even if the names are the same.
I guess what bothers me is that they perhaps made too many drastic changes overall. The removal of the element system in its entirety is the single most bone-headed thing ever to come out of ARR. It's like hacking off your own limb just because you want a prosthetic which doesn't do the job half as well. Sure, we have 'elemental resistances' but those make approximately zero difference to the damage received or dealt.
By removing certain mechanics, they've also removed some of the flexibility they had for making jobs more unique and full of flavour. Black Mage could've easily become the master of the elements instead of going for the hat-trick, which would have opened up other possibilities for element-based skills on classes to make tactics a thing. Monsters with strengths and weaknesses would also add flavour to the combat instead of having everyone mash the same button combos on every single enemy regardless of type.
Say what you will about FFXI, the combat at least was varied and made you think more about your opponent instead of whether or not your feet were still in a red circle. -
09-07-2014, 05:45 PMTupsiYou can't ignore the facts - You basically stated that 1.0 failed because it copied a failed MMORPG (XI), can you show the proof that XI was a failed MMORPG? Instead of the personal attacks, show more data. I don't take it "personally", I just actually played both MMOs. 1.0 being unfinished and designed on an engine not suited for MMOs is the main reasons it failed, even Yoshida stated as such. "Too much work went into tiny details and overburdened the engine, for example there's a ton of shaders and polygons in this one flower pot alone."Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
It's easy for even the most newbie developer to test - Try to make a platformer without any platforming logic and see how well your platformer works - That's essentially what they did with 1.0 and using the Crystal Tool Engine, it had no logic for MMORPGs.
The irony of this statement is companies still copy WoW to this day, a 2004 MMORPG, only 2 years younger than FFXI. So it's less me "taking x seriously" and more like it seems you dislike something you even admittedly never even played back then.Quote:
but I doubt that outdated game would do well if it was released today
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09-07-2014, 10:16 PMFelisIs it so bad that we don't have the "juhu, I do 100 dmg more with this element skill" moment anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Even in 1.0 and 1.23 the difference between right element skill and wrong element skill was not very big.
And BLM played during 1.23 this way:
single enemy = lightning spells
group of enemies = fire spells
reducing enmity = freeze
managing your mp = good luck -
09-07-2014, 10:54 PMrwyan
I think if you stand back and just take a look at the concepts behind the subjob and combat systems of FFXI, you will "get it". If you never played a MMO older than WoW, then you will probably never "get it" unfortunately. I'm sure the devs could easily find a way to create that level of flavor in FF14 in a more contemporary way - they are exceptionally talented after all.
How do you describe a job in FFXI.....?
1. Weapon skills each with its own weapon abilities.
2. Active job abilities unlocked according to level
3. Passive job traits unlocked according to level
4. Magic skills with spells acquired through quests, drops, npc merchants and the player auction house
5. Level based stat bonuses
How do you describe a job/class in FFXIV?
1. A single weapon
2. Active abilities unlocked according to level (conceptually includes both spells and weapon abilities)
3. Passive traits unlocked according to level (job abilities do require a quest to complete)
So... not only are jobs in FFXI more inherently more complicated and interesting, but the sub job system added another level of interest. Would you take a subjob for the stat bonuses? What about the abilities or spells? Yes, there were combos designated as "required" by the community, but balance is always a thing with MMOs.
Things that made FFXI combat interesting (once again, ignore the pacing)....
1. Resistance play - not every mob or encounter would simply be nuked or cc'd with the same ability rotation. You would have to be smart about weapon abilities with elemental damage.
2. Crowd Control - encounters were designed to heavily encourage the use of crowd control. Here, while we have CC, its use is negligible. -
09-07-2014, 11:10 PMLemuriaThe point I was making is that elements were one way of adding a layer of complexity to combat, and a good one at that. For starters, Ifrit should be absorbing fire attacks not being blasted to bits with them, Ramuh should be laughing off lightning strikes and Titan should be swatting Stone casts like gnats. But nope. Not even elementals take reduced damage from their own element. That feels like the complete opposite of every other Final Fantasy game out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
Having a reason to choose one skill over another is what we're lacking right now. And if elements would bring some of that back, I would welcome the change. Trouble is, it can't happen now because they've built the entire Black Mage class over a measly 3 elements. Black mage? More like a muddy-grey mage. If they added in absorption, resistance and weakness it would render the class utterly worthless. -
09-07-2014, 11:58 PMHioki
We can't have it due to poor implementation and design by developers, fear that players are too dumb to understand or capable enough to utilize, and probably some story reason as a cop out.
-There will be no major job changes in 3.0. This has already been confirmed.
-They have low ambition of expanding on secondary stats.
-They view secondary progressions systems(FFXI: merit points, Rift: planar attunement) as just something that happens when the levels are too stagnate. We likely won't see this until after 3-4 level increases despite the fact we're rolling in xp that can't be used.
-Secondary abilities will never be game changing or provide meaningful choice options. -Main class abilities will fall under the same concept as there is no talent/skill mutually exclusive choices to define playstyles.
-They have little understanding of "clutch"/ "turn the tide" moments with reactive abilities/mechanics. They also don't know how to reward players properly for acting on reactive abilities.
-Development/implementation time is excruciatingly long. If we were to get it, it would take close to 6-7 months before we would see even the glimmer in their eye for it.
-THEY HAVE TERRIBLE CODE AND CANNOT FIX THIS AGGRO BS THAT HAS BEEN IN THE GAME SINCE RELEASE. HOW HARD IS IT FOR ENEMIES TO CANCEL THEIR IMMEDIATE ACTION, STOP CROSSING AN ENTIRE FIELD, AND GO TO A DAMNED TANK AND BEGIN THEIR ATTACKS AS SOON AS THE TARGET IS CHANGED? WHY IS THIS STILL AN ISSUE A YEAR LATER? -
09-08-2014, 12:00 AMFelisBLM still choose between their skills depending how many enemies are on one place, how much MP is still there, how good the tank can build enmity, how long the fight would last.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
1 choice less is not the same as no choices.
My opinion is that the solution to this would be putting all elemental spells back where they were originaly and give THM another job, like WHM (and give them their cone AoE back). They are priests after all and were the best healers while the CNJ were the ones who played with elements.Quote:
Trouble is, it can't happen now because they've built the entire Black Mage class over a measly 3 elements. Black mage? More like a muddy-grey mage.
Even in the discussions which classes get WHM or BLM before the infos about it got announced, I was in the "give THM the WHM job" group. -
09-08-2014, 01:13 AMRhasExcept that when it failed big time, they threw out the old game engine and recreated it to be more flexible with the new direction they were taking. I'm sorry, but when you create a brand new game engine, it is new. They are still learning all the "ins and outs" of it. The new game engine was built with a certain focus and direction and you can't use hindsight to say certain abilities should have been in there in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Souljacker
How about you try creating a new game engine then 1 year down the line everyone playing your game says you should have known better to add this and that when you were writing the code for it in the first place. Hindsight is *always* 100% but, not everyone has the same thought process. It probably wasn't put in *because* the people developing it can't think of every possible situation and outcome that can possibly ever come up. They quickly restructured the game the best they could and got it out back to us players as fast as they possibly could and all you can do is complain that they should have known better and added this or that or any other thing. -
09-08-2014, 01:33 AMTupsiIncorrect - The Crystal Tools engine was (and still is) used at SE, but Luminous is the one taking over at present time. They didn't "throw it out." They did what they did with FFXI, create an engine specifically for ARR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhas
I don't think you know much about this area if you think this lol.Quote:
but when you create a brand new game engine, it is new.
They know the "ins and outs" as it's a branched version of the Luminous Engine, something already been used within SE for a time now. ARR is "new", but most systems have been in XIV since 2010.Quote:
They are still learning all the "ins and outs" of it.
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09-08-2014, 01:47 AMMagisAlways found it weird that the CNJs couldn't take advantage of fire, thunder and ice yet they are the "elementalists" of the game's lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
I agree with your points. However the last part... is that why in T7 the Lamias run to the middle of the fight when they spawn, instead of going to the tank?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hioki
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09-08-2014, 02:04 AMTupsi1.0 Conjurer Spell list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter
Because then it would be like FFXI and there's an obvious hate for anything and everything XI related here if they did their behaviors differently. The thing is, the enemies do switch their targets, but the server is what handles when/what they attack more so than the client in ARR's case.Quote:
I agree with your points. However the last part... is that why in T7 the Lamias run to the middle of the fight when they spawn, instead of going to the tank?
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09-08-2014, 02:10 AMSandpark
XI lots of redundancy-ARR has lots of simplicity
XI most jobs use same interface but play differently mechanics wise-ARR most classes/jobs use same interface but play similarly mechanics wise
XI is unbalanced due to varied job mechanics-ARR is balanced due to similar job mechanics.
XI skill use mostly governed by tp/mp-ARR mostly governed by cooldown.
3 or 8 tier cures?Who cares. In one game combat is slower I have spurts of spam with more buttons/tiers & in the other combat so fast I spam all the time with less buttons/tiers. ARR feels more like playing GodOfWar than a Final Fantasy pace wise.
I'd like to see the cooldowns removed from all but each classes most powerful skills. The tp/mp cost raised to use skills & the damage raised. And some form of synergy system through whole fights. Skillchains, combos, regiment, Chrono Trigger's combos, anything. The goal should be less gauge watching, more player watching, support and beef each other up. -
09-08-2014, 05:47 AMLemuriaBlack Mage gets what exactly? Spam fire until MP depletes, swap to Ice, go back to Fire once you've regened MP. Toss in a Thunder DoT for good measure when it drops. That's not really a 'choice', it's a rotation. And once you get into a rotation, it's pretty much the only way to play the class. Other jobs work in an identical fashion with their own rotations, excepting healers who at least are a bit more proactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
I was absolutely furious when they removed half my nukes on Conjurer. This was, at the time, combined with a massive MP hike on spells meaning that I could literally cast only 4 cures before I was utterly drained. Still, I would have traded ALL of them to Thaumaturge if we'd still have something that still resembled a proper Black Mage.