melee dps buffs + bard nerf = cumulative effect too much?

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Originally Posted by Skyhound

I know this may not be a desirable answer, but I feel like these changes were largely because of pvp. Just because pvp isn't the focus of this game, doesn't mean SE can just ignore it. The way bards are, they would have been incredibly OP in the Wolves' Den. The buff to pug and drg were just for good measure because even with a nerf, the fact that brds can attack and move will make them incredibly useful in pvp.

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It seems that all classes are going to have a completely separate set of skills for PvP, so this is most certainly not the reason.

problem is the fact that BRD is supposed to be considered DPS/Support yet it is extremely lacking in the support category having only 3 songs which are limited in how effective they are. By taking away any dps from it is outrageous. Back in 11 a single BRD could effectively double each of the other DPS's Damage output with either Valor or march or even decrease damage the tank takes with Minne. So basically if you are going to nerf BRD's damage you need to give it something else so that it can make up for the loss of damage to its other party members. Yet, all I have really heard is that fact the BRD wont get Blood 4 Blood and Invigorate any more which doesn't really bother me on the soul fact that I hate LNC/DRG with a passion.

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Originally Posted by Draggen-san

Yet, all I have really heard is that fact the BRD wont get Blood 4 Blood and Invigorate any more which doesn't really bother me on the soul fact that I hate LNC/DRG with a passion.

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Was the recent translation talked about? I assumed it was.

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A Bard skill is moving to another advanced job.

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Source: http://www.xivnation.com/news/yoshi-p-spills-patch-2-1-realm-awoken-details/

My impression recently is that they're giving out Bard skills rather than taking one from the bard. Not exactly sure what that means though.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Was the recent translation talked about? I assumed it was.

Source: http://www.xivnation.com/news/yoshi-p-spills-patch-2-1-realm-awoken-details/

My impression recently is that they're giving out Bard skills rather than taking one from the bard. Not exactly sure what that means though.

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It's a major mistranslation you have there. Bard skills cannot be given to others. 3 songs, buff for songs, AoE arrows. I'm certain it means "Bard cross class skill is being removed and replaced with another" or "Bard cross class skills are being moved to another job"

"A Bard skill is moving to another advanced job."
I really dont understand this sentence lol. How should I understand it? That Bards skills are being moved to another classes? Like there will be a SMN with mage ballad or wut? -.- Sure thats a nonsense but its how this sentence seems to be like to me.

I think they use Bard and Archer interchangeably. I've seen them do it multiple times with jobs/classes.
It makes slightly more sense then. Still don't understand it though.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I think they use Bard and Archer interchangeably. I've seen them do it multiple times with jobs/classes.
It makes slightly more sense then. Still don't understand it though.

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Could you cite your sources on this? I've only seen and heard them being very explicit and precise in their class and job titles when talking about them and would be interested in seeing otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

A bunch of wrong words.

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We have to manage about as much stuff as a BLM, and I don't see anyone bitching about that faceroll job. And don't give me that "we have more utility" crap that Yoshi gave us. 2 of our 3 songs have such a ridiculously specialized role that we use them a few times a week at best. And we can't maintain them for any large period of time. What's the point in nerfing our already not-chart-topping DPS when our "Support" role is mediocre as fuck?

I'm not losing my raid spot over it, I'm smart and geared more than one class, but it's really stupid that they're nerfing a class that doesn't need it, and buffing another class that doesn't need it. The only good changes they're making is the fix to Jump animations.

No where in the live letter does its say that melee are getting a hard 10% damage buff, self-centered little whiners need to stop twisting people's words. Overall, the changes look like they might work, there doesn't seem to be any significant buffs or nerfs. With the changes to jumps, drg is expected to get a 10% damage increase but we won't know til we test it. Mnk is getting an increase to Bootshine and True Strike but we still don't know how much.

I still think other dps still need something that they can offer the party/raid like bard's songs. Ballad can be absolutely crucial but there are also many instances where you do not need it; so if bard do significantly less damage, there would no point in having them for those fights. However, bard is still by far the most retardedly brain-dead class to play so that's always a big plus.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

We have to manage about as much stuff as a BLM, and I don't see anyone bitching about that faceroll job. And don't give me that "we have more utility" crap that Yoshi gave us. 2 of our 3 songs have such a ridiculously specialized role that we use them a few times a week at best. And we can't maintain them for any large period of time. What's the point in nerfing our already not-chart-topping DPS when our "Support" role is mediocre as fuck?

I'm not losing my raid spot over it, I'm smart and geared more than one class, but it's really stupid that they're nerfing a class that doesn't need it, and buffing another class that doesn't need it. The only good changes they're making is the fix to Jump animations.

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That's cuz other people actually bother to play blm and to learn to play it effectively, rather than just rage about how others call your brain-dead main job brain-dead. And no, don't even pretend that you know how to play blm cuz you obviously don't.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'm not going to argue that we're a difficult class. Honestly, I'm not sure which classes I'd argue *are* difficult, but that's beside the point. I just don't want people getting the idea that somehow BRD is the single, solitary class that can DPS while moving, because we aren't. The fact is, the only time that a

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No but look at all the examples you yourself cited, blm has to do these skills or hope for this proc to dps while moving, healers must use certain skills to heal while moving from AoEs, Melees have to find a safe spot as you have said while dealing with positioning or completely disengage at risk of losing major buffs or their place in rotation. None of these jobs can play their best while moving. Bur what changes between a bard playing his or her best and having to dodge? Well theyre moving, they dont need to pre plan and dont need an extra bonus skill, they play the exact same while dodging as they do standing still.

Does this make bard broken? No, just less stressful and through that stress level it makes it a bit easier to know what to do as a bard. No one is claiming what melees and the other classes do to be the hardest thing in the world. What I am saying and have been said is that Bard deals with very little of those same things to begin with. No cast times, but stays out of range of most AoE, no poisitioning on the target to mess around with. Just gotta play normal and when needed to sing bards are often told to do so, then they sing , and nothing changes how they play even then except the damage they do.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

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You realize that I was pretty much explicitly arguing against your earlier assertion that all the other classes have to halt everything in order to dodge, right? Once you conceded that they don't, I no longer have any reason to continue this argument. I'll leave the relative difficulties of the various classes to another discussion.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You realize that I was pretty much explicitly arguing against your earlier assertion that all the other classes have to halt everything in order to dodge, right? Once you conceded that they don't, I no longer have any reason to continue this argument. I'll leave the relative difficulties of the various classes to another discussion.

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I guess the more correct wording would have been Bard can play optimum either way, the other jobs can not play their best while moving and must adapt new strategies, pre plan, or completely stop doing damage, where Bard can stay static and constant in what Bard does while moving or dodging an AoE. As far as the discussion about difficulty, Im sure we can save that for another day. All of what I said still stands though, People , not you of course, can call me stupid, a liar, whatever I dont really care, It doesnt change the facts about Bard as a whole.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Could you cite your sources on this? I've only seen and heard them being very explicit and precise in their class and job titles when talking about them and would be interested in seeing otherwise.

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That's just my impression. I may be wrong of course. The live letters are pretty lengthy and it's something I noted a while back so sourcing it is too difficult. I guess just take it with a grain of salt.
I can't imagine though that they mean they're giving songs away. And Reinheart shouldn't have too much of a mix up with job names.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Bard can move.

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Brd can dps and move, dps outcome still on lower half in endgame (after titan) / (aimed for coil) thats the fact when good ppl and in same gear play together.
On titan a bard should not jump around like an idiot, if position wrong, u can get other casters/healers locked in for "plumes", so they must find correct position. After heart phase, and will probly come more to show when EM Primal comes. In coil there is nothing to benefit from jumping aroun like and idiot either. And if u see a Brd strafe trough Place where healers stand during Liquied hell, just kick him. They can move, but they need to think about where they stand.
They have alot of CD's, and timing those right, all of them, to make most out of the dps we have, is not a faceroll, Couple of those conflags, u have realy low time to get down. have the right cd's ready for the correct conflags.

I dont mind a movment "nerf" to brd, but then they would need a dps boost.
There are so many aspects about Brd that is flushed away from all the crying about theire movment.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I guess the more correct wording would have been Bard can play optimum either way, the other jobs can not play their best while moving... snip

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But does that even matter since (at endgame) even optimum Bard that doesn't sing is behind other DD dealing with mechanics?

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Originally Posted by Bardo

But does that even matter since (at endgame) even optimum Bard that doesn't sing is behind other DD dealing with mechanics?

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The conversation was about the difficulty of bard it just got steered un a weird direction. I already stated more than once bard is weaker, but less stressful to play and was clearly intended to be less stressful and due to said stress levels slightly easier to use inside content. It wouldnt matter personally to me if Monk did less damage than bard but I didnt pick up Monk because it was strong. So im probably not the right person to get into a dps argument with. Im more about the sum of all parts than individual strength

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Originally Posted by Cynric

The conversation was about the difficulty of bard it just got steered un a weird direction. I already stated more than once bard is weaker, but less stressful to play and was clearly intended to be less stressful and due to said stress levels slightly easier to use inside content. It wouldnt matter personally to me if Monk did less damage than bard but I didnt pick up Monk because it was strong. So im probably not the right person to get into a dps argument with. Im more about the sum of all parts than individual strength

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Just lucky that the class you enjoy will be the epitome of individual strength in DPS checks in the coming patch. ;)

the whole point of this being is not bards as an individual, but as a group as a whole. for example you have 2 dps, 1 brd and 1 blm, and another group has 1 drg and 1 blm. which group is going to pound out way more dmg? notice the only difference is replacing one class with another? exactly the point in the changes and the main reason noone wants a drg in their group in the first place. they even said personally they are making the changes so drg will be more viable to be in the group and i hope with future content they create bosses that require melee dps with attack patterns just as much as any other class would be needed. now come on start giving me a bunch of likes people!!!

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Originally Posted by Aysha_Alese

the whole point of this being is not bards as an individual, but as a group as a whole. for example you have 2 dps, 1 brd and 1 blm, and another group has 1 drg and 1 blm. which group is going to pound out way more dmg? notice the only difference is replacing one class with another? exactly the point in the changes and the main reason noone wants a drg in their group in the first place. they even said personally they are making the changes so drg will be more viable to be in the group and i hope with future content they create bosses that require melee dps with attack patterns just as much as any other class would be needed. now come on start giving me a bunch of likes people!!!

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I don't know if I agree with that...BLM/DRG set up will easily out-damage BLM/BRD. Unless you're talking about speed runs but even then, it's arguable.

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Originally Posted by BrandoH

Just lucky that the class you enjoy will be the epitome of individual strength in DPS checks in the coming patch. ;)

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I still say Monk didnt need a buff.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I still say Monk didnt need a buff.

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I agree, not sure what top end monks do but our almost i90 monk does on average about 290ish dps on twintania which by far blows every other dps out of the water, even its counterpart drg which average about 280 I think is what a friend say they do on T5. So really I continue to fail to see SE logic about buffing the already strongest DPS classes and nerfing the weakest, unless they are trying to balance it out, but all and all, every top end game player still has no idea as to the reason behind SE logic and we may never know just what SE is thinking.

Its almost like they try Balance classes based on WP SR shouts and casual coil grp shouts.
Fix WP SR's, give Our silence to drg?
Well in a few days we can see if there are some Logic to this, i have my hopes, couse from what i can see they did a decent job on balancing tanks (war adjustments)

Bard nerf is in the wrong direction, Monk buff was partially in the right.

Bard needed a movement nerf, not a damage. Monk needed Greased Lightning to be longer (which it did). Melee needed more uptime on bosses which somehow translated to, "keep boss mechanics same, buff their damage".

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Monk needed Greased Lightning to be longer (which it did). Melee needed more uptime on bosses which somehow translated to, "keep boss mechanics same, buff their damage".

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So far from most of the top end monks I have talked to the boost is nice, but those with enough skill speed or knowledge think that the buff to monk may not be that worth it, since most say 10 sec is more than enough time to keep combo up, the only problem is TP.

Remember, Coil isn't the only place in the game not only that, majority of the populace isn't even far into Coil.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

I agree, not sure what top end monks do but our almost i90 monk does on average about 290ish dps on twintania which by far blows every other dps out of the water, even its counterpart drg which average about 280 I think is what a friend say they do on T5. So really I continue to fail to see SE logic about buffing the already strongest DPS classes and nerfing the weakest, unless they are trying to balance it out, but all and all, every top end game player still has no idea as to the reason behind SE logic and we may never know just what SE is thinking.

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The disparity between a well played MNK and DRG should be lot higher than 10 dps over a sustained fight like twintania. Seems like a skill disparity to me (MNK/DRG player here).
I'd also argue that if 290 dps is "by far blowing out" every other dps in your group, there is something wrong with your mages.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

The disparity between a well played MNK and DRG should be lot higher than 10 dps over a sustained fight like twintania. Seems like a skill disparity to me (MNK/DRG player here).
I'd also argue that if 290 dps is "by far blowing out" every other dps in your group, there is something wrong with your mages.

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Our mages are not as geared in terms of i90 compared to the monk so could set them apart, but our mages are smns which taking into account garuda egis which are about 75 dps with tier 170s puts them around where I am being under geared in terms of i90, but again undergeared mages almost out dpsing an almost i90 bard, brings the why are we nerfing the lowest i90 dps class again? Because bard has maybe better damage in i70 gear makes no valid point for an argument since end game vs casual end game is by far a different measure of actual class play capability/potential.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

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I didnt comment on bards, just MNK/DRG/BLM and SMN. For a bard to not reach 290 dps isnt unusual, since they have the lowest sustained dps. For a mage to be "far" below 290 is rather bad though but you already mentioned a gear disparity, which explains it.

In terms of bard nerfs i think their sustained dps will be left mostly untouched, i expect the nerf to focus on burst. Bards burst is definitely strong.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Was the recent translation talked about? I assumed it was.

Source: http://www.xivnation.com/news/yoshi-p-spills-patch-2-1-realm-awoken-details/

My impression recently is that they're giving out Bard skills rather than taking one from the bard. Not exactly sure what that means though.

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It's possible we may lose raging strikes (maybe BLM gets it so that they don't lose it from their subs)... I saw someone else suggest the may alter the debuff effect on rain of arrows and move it to another skill on another job... Maybe it'll have a different effect attached or just do dmg. I think it might be raging strikes that we lose tho... can't really see anything else they could take from us and then there you go, our burst is down.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Bard nerf is in the wrong direction, Monk buff was partially in the right.

Bard needed a movement nerf, not a damage. Monk needed Greased Lightning to be longer (which it did). Melee needed more uptime on bosses which somehow translated to, "keep boss mechanics same, buff their damage".

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We still dont know if its a buff to the effect of gl3 or a buff to the duration due to the wording used. There is no guarantee it will be the duration.

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Originally Posted by Volux

It's possible we may lose raging strikes (maybe BLM gets it so that they don't lose it from their subs)... I saw someone else suggest the may alter the debuff effect on rain of arrows and move it to another skill on another job... Maybe it'll have a different effect attached or just do dmg. I think it might be raging strikes that we lose tho... can't really see anything else they could take from us and then there you go, our burst is down.

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I don't see either of those happening. Raging Strikes has been with us since 1.0 launch. That'd be like moving Featherfoot to MRD or something. As for RoD, they'd have to change the second effect, as well as the effect on Wide Volley. They'd also have to change the range, the cost, or both. It basically wouldn't be RoD anymore; and besides, removing RoD would increase our AOE DPS. Remember, our other AOE skills are cheaper *and* do more damage.

I just want to chime in to the debate by saying as your WHM I will continue to not let you die :D and I love you all, all you DPS all the same! I still love my Tanks more but...I love all you DPS the same :D CURES FOR EVERYONE!

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Originally Posted by Cynric

We still dont know if its a buff to the effect of gl3 or a buff to the duration due to the wording used. There is no guarantee it will be the duration.

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I hope it's not the duration, they shouldn't make it too easy for us to maintain the buff, it's the only thing holding us back IF it happens to fall off.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I hope it's not the duration, they shouldn't make it too easy for us to maintain the buff, it's the only thing holding us back IF it happens to fall off.

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Lol agreed, I think the duration is fine as is. Im just worried that with more damage and the backstab buff that we will get hate too easily.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I always see Bard mains get so defensive for saying Bard is easy. Being an easy class isnt a bad thing. Bard cant top the damage the other dps classes do, but those classes generally do more work than bard to attain that damage. Bard has the benefits of both melee and ranged. Its a pretty stress free job.

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So silencing and passing rot while dodging laser as your healer is calling for ballad is "stress free"?
How is hitting two buttons per GCD while moving "less work" than just moving to cancel your cast and then casting again when you stop?

Bards get defensive when you call the class "easy" because that's an incredibly poor (and completely subjective) descriptor for how the class actually plays.
You should stick to "Bard can keep 100% uptime", which is a fact instead of a subjective opinion.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

So silencing and passing rot while dodging laser as your healer is calling for ballad is stress free?
How is hitting two buttons per GCD while moving less work than just moving to cancel your cast and then casting again when you stop?

Bards get defensive when you call the class "easy" because that's an incredibly poor descriptor for how the class actually plays.
You should stick to "Bard can keep 100% uptime", which is a fact instead of a subjective opinion.

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I like bard as it is a DPS class with a priority based system rather than a rotation. FA on CD, keeping DoTs and crit buff up, Bloodletter when it procs. Instead of 1-2-3-4.

Also enough with the moving, how often do you have to move on fights that aren't Titan?

I think what the "backstab buff" for monk is actually just a duration increase for twin snake so we can properly fit true strike into the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

I just want to chime in to the debate by saying as your WHM I will continue to not let you die :D and I love you all, all you DPS all the same! I still love my Tanks more but...I love all you DPS the same :D CURES FOR EVERYONE!

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This was so emotional.
We love you too <3

Also why in the hell the people that provide his opinion about bard is doing it without any knowledge? Some of them have a Bard lvl 50 but seems like his knowledge curve is a little disappointing