Will DRG and PLD still be next to useless in 2.0?

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

Block since it's inception in this game has never procced on a Weapon Skill. I would love to be proven wrong but I've never seen it happen.
You must be pointing your back at the boss then, since Block is easier to proc than parry.

Also this information is based on the fact that block rates get significantly lower the higher the monster's level is. It was made a little better a few patches ago but it's still fairly low (using Vintage Kite Shield+1).
(Block rate is trash on a PLD. You can force block so often that Block will trump Block rate at any instance when playing PLD.)

I'm not saying that PLD's can't keep hate as well as WARs. I'm saying that since WARs can deal more damage they contribute more to the overall goal while doing their job. Which in the end gives them the edge.
PLD can technically deal near as much damage to a Boss as warrior, and if you need two WHMs on WAR tanking, PLD can easily do it with 1, which is why they can have better damage potential.

Divine Veil doesn't help much when most mobs are spamming Weapon Skills. This goes back to the first point.
Divine veil will block whenever something is on your front. If your paladin is smart, they can easily position themselves. If anything you can use Divine Veil during cover as well.

Whether or not PLD doesn't have to gear up HP is debatable. What isn't is the fact that PLD's HP is too low.
That's the thing though, it's not too low. If your paladin can't tank with 3.8k-4k HP, there is something wrong with either the WHM or the PLD.

PLDs can indeed us Bloodbath but unfortunately they rarely do enough damage with their WS to get a good drain off. There are too few mobs where PLD gets good damage in (Spirits Within not included). Aside from Riot Blade and Spirits Within their WS are pretty weak. I'm sure you can drain on Riot Blade but can you drain on Spirits Within <- Honest question, I haven't tried it.
You almost always use bloodbath on Spirits within because Spirits within usually does more damage than God's Bane.

Now don't get me wrong. As I said before, I love PLD and want so bad to go back to using it over WAR but there aren't many situations where that's better. I'm hoping 2.0 changes that.

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You haven't been in enough situations where PLD can do just as well, if not better (Garuda/Ifrit Extreme/Hamlet), than WAR.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Yeah I guess that could be the case. I'd like to actually do first hand testing parsing DRG vs my BLM.

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Parsing almost every Garuda hard run I've done, I can tell you that a DRG does as much dmg as a BLM. There is however a few reasons why parse won't usually show this. First of all DRGs should be helping out with the plumes, while BLMs are practically worthless against the plumes. I mean, a MNK can easily out damage a BLM at garuda only because they can stay on her full time. So when you have monks to replace the BLMs, and then two dragoons to replace the two bards in that video, not only do the clones go down very fast but garuda can go down faster since DRG obviously does better damage than a bard, and MNKs can out damage black mages in most instances.

Pretty much, it currently stands that BLM is the easy way out of things right now. If you want even more efficiency, BLMs will not always be the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Madrox

Stupid people just don't understand, I feel bad for you.

I use melee DD for efficient and even better survivability at times. Does thinking outside the box hurt?

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Apparently, because most PUGs won't even do it.
I didn't say you're wrong, by the way; on the contrary I think you're probably right. But like you said, you need to thoroughly know wtf you're doing as a melee. Naturally people assume that you don't. PUGs are a gamble, mages are the safer bet compared to melee DD, so people tend to cram their parties full of BLM or cram the party altogether. Thinking outside of the box is great for LSs who can continue to work on their strategy, but for PUGs it's sadly more often just a good way to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

Apparently, because most PUGs won't even do it.
I didn't say you're wrong, by the way; on the contrary I think you're probably right. But like you said, you need to thoroughly know wtf you're doing as a melee. Naturally people assume that you don't. PUGs are a gamble, mages are the safer bet compared to melee DD, so people tend to cram their parties full of BLM or cram the party altogether. Thinking outside of the box is great for LSs who can continue to work on their strategy, but for PUGs it's sadly more often just a good way to wipe.

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I don't think anythings wrong with melee, It's just that I think personally MNK is always better than DRG. I'm not going to suggest that I know everything, but to be fair even If I'm not 100% correct, I think it's fair to say that MNK is better for more things than DRG.

DRG with ps3 is the best sustained dps period. There are countless parses out there to back this up.

Chardrizard said it the best: try experiencing an encounter before you pass judgement on it. It's like all the people watching the ifrit extreme video's thinking the encounter is easy and then QQ'ing on the forums when they actually do it.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

Apparently, because most PUGs won't even do it.
I didn't say you're wrong, by the way; on the contrary I think you're probably right. But like you said, you need to thoroughly know wtf you're doing as a melee. Naturally people assume that you don't. PUGs are a gamble, mages are the safer bet compared to melee DD, so people tend to cram their parties full of BLM or cram the party altogether. Thinking outside of the box is great for LSs who can continue to work on their strategy, but for PUGs it's sadly more often just a good way to wipe.

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Good point, usually do things within the ls and among friends with the occasional pickup to fill in a spot. don't believe it would be an issue if people would focus a bit more on other classes and jobs.

You know I have seen a whm once say "I'm not good at healing but I'll be a great white mage", and many refuse to try things that take more than standing in a safe spot spamming thunder. Some of these people tend to cause wipes due to being squishy and can be one shot in some cases causing unnecessary interruptions for the whm. Can be a bit frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

DRG with ps3 is the best sustained dps period. There are countless parses out there to back this up.

Chardrizard said it the best: try experiencing an encounter before you pass judgement on it. It's like all the people watching the ifrit extreme video's thinking the encounter is easy and then QQ'ing on the forums when they actually do it.

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A maxed stat DD with over 1000 attack power and incredibly fast tp gain the best? What is this blasphemy.

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Originally Posted by Dawiichan

You haven't been in enough situations where PLD can do just as well, if not better (Garuda/Ifrit Extreme/Hamlet), than WAR.

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You're right Block does proc more than parry but you're missing the point of that statement. WAR can almost completely nullify a 1500-2000 damage hit on command if they time their Foresight/Feather Foot usage right (or even with a random parry proc). This is just not possible with PLD. Over the long run it's entirely possible that the PLD takes less damage than the WAR but the WAR is evading the hits that count (the ones that can down you).

That is completely dependent on the group. Unfortunately your experience/luck with getting decent people together doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game.

Again you are ignoring the big point. Blocks don't proc on WS. Having the mob in front of you w/ Divine Veil means nothing to 100-Tonze/10-Tonze/<insert WS here>. Parries do proc on WS and can practically be done on command with Foresight. Honestly I don't even see your point here with the whole positioning comment and facing the mob... If the mob isn't in front of you as a PLD or WAR you're not doing your job so that doesn't apply.

You're right. If a PLD can't tank with 3.8k HP then they are doing something wrong. But how did that PLD get to 3.8k+ from the norm. See? The norm doesn't apply to you because you have a decent group. The norm is a full AF PLD with some decent accessories. That's about 3400-3500 after full party buff. Any simple ass WAR is standing around with 4k after that buff. It makes a big difference.

Ahh... I assumed it wouldn't work since it was magic damage. FFXI mentality. I'll definitely start using that now.

Definitely agree with you here. I did my first Hamlet run on WAR and switched to PLD right after. Far better experience... I haven't done Ifrit Extreme and I've only gotten Garuda down to 10% with PUGs. I need to find a group to down shit with. -_-;

Uhh what? I've played Dragoon in all of these activities and often.

Ifrit (Hard)
Ifrit (Extreme)
Moogle (Hard)
Garuda (Hard)
Miser's Mistress
Hamlet
Skirmish
Nael van Darnus
Strongholds

Seeing as that is roughly 90% of the games content I think Dragoons are doing just fine. They are on par with Monk and can even do better damage in certain situations (especially considering if the mob doesn't have a weakness to a element Monk doesn't have). The recent revamp of Dragoon make the job viable for almost all content. If your parties/linkshell doesn't use it then it's there fault because I play it all the time, and generally wherever I want with no problem.

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Originally Posted by Dawiichan

Parsing almost every Garuda hard run I've done, I can tell you that a DRG does as much dmg as a BLM. There is however a few reasons why parse won't usually show this. First of all DRGs should be helping out with the plumes, while BLMs are practically worthless against the plumes. I mean, a MNK can easily out damage a BLM at garuda only because they can stay on her full time. So when you have monks to replace the BLMs, and then two dragoons to replace the two bards in that video, not only do the clones go down very fast but garuda can go down faster since DRG obviously does better damage than a bard, and MNKs can out damage black mages in most instances.

Pretty much, it currently stands that BLM is the easy way out of things right now. If you want even more efficiency, BLMs will not always be the way to go.

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This, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

Apparently, because most PUGs won't even do it.
I didn't say you're wrong, by the way; on the contrary I think you're probably right. But like you said, you need to thoroughly know wtf you're doing as a melee. Naturally people assume that you don't. PUGs are a gamble, mages are the safer bet compared to melee DD, so people tend to cram their parties full of BLM or cram the party altogether. Thinking outside of the box is great for LSs who can continue to work on their strategy, but for PUGs it's sadly more often just a good way to wipe.

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This.


To me this represents a bigger problem inherent with the game though, not the players. Most melee I come in contact with dont know what they are doing and have problems dealing with AoE damage and Environmental damage. For this reason I think my biggest issue is the lack of ballance (in terms of survivability) of ranged vs melee. I think the damage outputs are fine, but they seriously need to beef up melee a bit to make them more viable to the average player, at least for 1.0. The only thing I have seen Melees not have a problem with is the Laser that Van Darnus fires. Once they know what to look for, melees have no trouble avoiding it. Where as someone I know that plays as monk will always get hit by traps in Ifrit. I cant decide what is the bigger reason for this: a seeming lack of lag, more than 1/2 a second to move, or more obvious visual clues, or possibly a combination of all 3? Whatever the case its working and is the most ballanced fight I have seen in terms of survival in ranged vs melee.

Im hoping that the new engine will ensure no lag in potential response time in 2.0 for moves that you MUST get out of the way for in 2.0. They also mentioned supplying something like a cast bar as a visual indicator too. Seems to me if they can integrate these 2 things well in 2.0, then this might make more people open and able to use melee for boss encounters. Having more than 1/2 a second to move probably wouldnt hurt either, but wouldnt be necessary if the other two were implemented well.

They have also mentioned recently that they want skill and gear to be about 50/50. If it works like I imagine that means that people would be just as able to make up for lack of gear with skill, as they were able to make up for lack of skill with gear. At least to some degree, this could help average/casual players become more viable in boss fights as well.

I think if SE addresses these issues it would help greatly to promote diversity of party set up and play styles with out the fear of constant wipes that lead to people wanting only certain party set ups.