FFXVI has now officially proven to have taken over Yoshi's time

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Second bit is hard to sell a lot of people on. My personal opinion is that balance doesnt mean anything until in the presence of an enrage timer. Most players simply wont touch content above and including ex trials. In content where your enrage timer is the instance timer, your dps is nearly irrelevant. Most of the discussion is from play on a higher level which frankly, most casual players dont care too too much about. Optimization of your job for a casual player is optional content.

But for higher level players, which dps balance is based around, it matters a hell of a lot more. So while I sit there and bemoan how SMN is a disaster, the issues arnt relevant to a majority of the playerbase. But for those who it does effect, it matters a damn lot.

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That's where alot of the tension stems from. That last part. Things that are fine for the majority of the playerbase arent for certain sects and they but heads here. So both sides are just as valid to say there's an issue. It is clear SE focus is on the majority amd alot of their decisions reflect that, good and bad. I just don't like the mentality that casual players are "ruining" what has always generally been a casual game. SE has made decisions that have only made the game more successful so even if I myself would like to see changes (I do) I can't sit n say they're wrong for going this route ya know?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

SE has made decisions that have only made the game more successful so even if I myself would like to see changes (I do) I can't sit n say they're wrong for going this route ya know?

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Half of FF14's success is from WoW's failure. The other half: the FF fanbase's propensity to accept anything SE puts out.

These dumbed down jobs did not make the game more successful. No new player comes to the game because of the SMN rework. It wasn't advertised, it wasn't marketed, and only a fraction of new players actually will play SMN at all.

This game has an attrition rate of 20-30% per patch. New players join because of SE's aggressive advertisement and marketing strategy, and word of mouth based off of how the story is good. These are the primary factors. If job design stuck to Stormblood's design while everything else stayed the same (ShB/EW story, same level of marketing etc.), I highly doubt there will be any difference in this game's financial success.

In other words, this game's success is not attributable to every single decision CBU3 made. By percentage growth in player count, HW was also a major success. SB was also a major success. This tells you that the growth in players is likely independent of many of the decisions they make for the game.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Half of FF14's success is from WoW's failure. The other half: the FF fanbase's propensity to accept anything SE puts out.

These dumbed down jobs did not make the game more successful. No new player comes to the game because of the SMN rework. It wasn't advertised, it wasn't marketed, and only a fraction of new players actually will play SMN at all.

This game has an attrition rate of 20-30% per patch. New players join because of SE's aggressive advertisement and marketing strategy, and word of mouth based off of how the story is good. These are the primary factors. If job design stuck to Stormblood's design while everything else stayed the same (ShB/EW story, same level of marketing etc.), I highly doubt there will be any difference in this game's financial success.

In other words, this game's success is not attributable to every single decision CBU3 made. By percentage growth in player count, HW was also a major success. SB was also a major success. This tells you that the growth in players is likely independent of many of the decisions they make for the game.

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Really...? So the game isn't successful for anything it has done. It's because ff fans are apparently idiots and WoW is bad...yet many FF games have flopped in the past and many xiv fans aren't FF fans. So that logic dies right there.

Can you prove to me that more accessible jobs didn't contribute? Is there some data you have to share for this? How do you know no new players joined due to a class rework? You don't. You don't THINK so. But you dont KNOW so. Let's be more accurate there. In fact much of what you're saying is backed by nothing but sheer opinion there. If you truly think more accessible classes don't/can't bring is new players you don't understand business in that regard.

To say the games growth has nothing or little to do with CBU3 is beyond off. The game has to be good enough for folks to stay/come back to play. Yes HW, SB, ShB and EW are indeed major successes. (ShB onwards being the bigger ones desipte the game "according to these forums" ruining the game). And that is attributed to (for the most part) CBU3 doing an overall good job expac after expac.

But I forget you operate on the logic that CBU3 has done nothing right...yet you still pay monthly for the game. By your own logic you're either here because of bad WoW or you're one of those so called sheeple SE fans.

Lastly that last part is funny. Number 1 sure I'll give you. Number 2 makes no sense. Since when was asking for evidence a bad faith move? If you make a claim n folks ask for it that's perfectly normal. If one person hasnt provided evidence n they werent asked to its not bad faith if they turn around and ask. Number 3 is just more "hate big corporate jargon. And number 4 is also weird. If the fact is that your view is the minority you can call that bad faith. Now if you went further n said folks who say that and then proclaim your view is less valid THEN I'd agree.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Half of FF14's success is from WoW's failure.

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Game was plenty popular before The Great WoW Exodus™, chief.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

The other half: the FF fanbase's propensity to accept anything SE puts out.

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Which is why version 1.0 was a huge success and the game was never completely remade from the ground up!
...Oh wait

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Lastly that last part is funny. Number 1 sure I'll give you. Number 2 makes no sense. Since when was asking for evidence a bad faith move? If you make a claim n folks ask for it that's perfectly normal. If one person hasnt provided evidence n they werent asked to its not bad faith if they turn around and ask. Number 3 is just more "hate big corporate jargon. And number 4 is also weird. If the fact is that your view is the minority you can call that bad faith. Now if you went further n said folks who say that and then proclaim your view is less valid THEN I'd agree.

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Why did you feel the need to attack the signature? Is it because you feel uncomfortable?

As for the rest of your post: NO ONE has any data on how job changes affected the game's popularity. In fact, this is data not even SE can collect, because the job changes happen simultaneously along with multiple other confounders (such as better storyline) so that a robust statistical causal analysis is basically impossible to conduct. This is why this argument is bad-faith: because no one can actually use data to prove anything here. Not even Square Enix. They have no control group or any causal instrument to tease out the effect.

So as any reasonable and sane person would do next, I inferred the most likely scenario based on what we can actually observe and made educated deductions. First, new players are most likely to try out a game based on advertisements and word of mouth. Second, SE has not talked about the job changes at all in their ads. Third, most people's discussion of FF14 outside of FF14 communities center on factors other than job design when they talk about why they like the game, including: the story, the positive community, the impression that Yoshi P cares more about the players than other devs... From this it's rather straightforward to conclude that job changes are very unlikely to have changed a potential player's decision on whether or not to try this game out and purchase it. Those job changes are announced only within the community, through live letters and patch notes. New players largely do not decide to start playing a game because of a 3-hour live letter discussing things they know nothing about.

Then of course more bad faith arguments followed but I don't have the time to explain why for every point. It's a variant of gish galloping after all. Instead of clearly communicating one single idea or argument, gish gallopers make many, all of which takes time to correct.

Oh, and cute "gotcha" attempts like "why are you paying for the sub" are basically variants of point number 1 in my signature. Asking why someone is still subbing when they have criticisms is practically identical from telling someone to unsub. The only difference is that one is passive aggressive. It's highly confusing why you would agree that that is a bad faith argument then write a passive aggressive variant of it.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Why did you feel the need to attack the signature? Is it because you feel uncomfortable?

As for the rest of your post: NO ONE has any data on how job changes affected the game's popularity. In fact, this is data not even SE can collect, because the job changes happen simultaneously along with multiple other confounders (such as better storyline) so that a robust statistical causal analysis is basically impossible to conduct. This is why this argument is bad-faith: because no one can actually use data to prove anything here. Not even Square Enix. They have no control group or any causal instrument to tease out the effect.

So as any reasonable and sane person would do next, I inferred the most likely scenario based on what we can actually observe and made educated deductions. First, new players are most likely to try out a game based on advertisements and word of mouth. Second, SE has not talked about the job changes at all in their ads. Third, most people's discussion of FF14 outside of FF14 communities center on factors other than job design when they talk about why they like the game, including: the story, the positive community, the impression that Yoshi P cares more about the players than other devs... From this it's rather straightforward to conclude that job changes are very unlikely to have changed a potential player's decision on whether or not to try this game out and purchase it. Those job changes are announced only within the community, through live letters and patch notes. New players largely do not decide to start playing a game because of a 3-hour live letter discussing things they know nothing about.

Then of course more bad faith arguments followed but I don't have the time to explain why for every point. It's a variant of gish galloping after all. Instead of clearly communicating one single idea or argument, gish gallopers make many, all of which takes time to correct.

Oh, and cute "gotcha" attempts like "why are you paying for the sub" are basically variants of point number 1 in my signature. Asking why someone is still subbing when they have criticisms is practically identical from telling someone to unsub. The only difference is that one is passive aggressive. It's highly confusing why you would agree that that is a bad faith argument then write a passive aggressive variant of it.

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Writing things you don't agree with off as bad faith...is literally bad faith. Like come on you have to realize this...

I addressed the signature because it has holes. Also attacking? Pretty charged language. Hell I even agreed with the first point and even stated I'd agree with the last if there was another part to it so to assume it makes me uncomfortable is...weird.

Lastly it's not a "gotcha". I genuinely do wonder why any one would pay for a game they don't think does anything right as you've claimed. It makes no sense and is irrational. I don't ask that for folks with simple criticism. I ask that to folks who seemingly dislike every or most aspects of the game. It's not passive aggressive by any means. Would you say the same if I swap the topic being a game to say...a restaurant? Is it crazy to ask someone why they still go eat there despite saying all the food is crap? It's literally no different with this...Using "bad faith" as a shield to stave off anyone who doesn't agree or speak how you want them to gets us nowhere. When will yall learn this?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Lastly it's not a "gotcha". I genuinely do wonder why any one would pay for a game they don't think does anything right as you've claimed. It makes no sense and is irrational. I don't ask that for folks with simple criticism. I ask that to folks who seemingly dislike every or most aspects of the game. It's not passive aggressive by any means. Would you say the same if I swap the topic being a game to say...a restaurant? Is it crazy to ask someone why they still go eat there despite saying all the food is crap? It's literally no different with this...Using "bad faith" as a shield to stave off anyone who doesn't agree or speak how you want them to gets us nowhere. When will yall learn this?

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Yes, it absolutely is a "gotcha". It has zero relevance to the topic and zero relevance to the discussion. You are asking what someone's personal interests and reason for playing the game are. That has nothing to do with the topic, and nothing to do with the discussion. It is derailment-lite: an attempt to shift the discussion away from game discussion to a discussion about individual players and their purchasing decisions. It makes it easier to dismiss arguments when you try to portray them as lacking monetary sense or making bad purchase decisions. In essence, you are very much engaging in passive aggressive hostility by shifting the blame from the game to the players. Your "curiosity" is not legitimate and you are encouraged to stick to game discussion. FYI: players can dislike a lot of the game but enjoy one small part of it, such as raiding. However, unlike certain people on the forums, most players do not feel the need to make a post praising the game for every criticism they make.

It also has not got past me that you have intentionally ignored the main chunk of my post (which took up nearly 70% of it in word count) in an attempt to "gotcha" me by focusing on points that you see as easier to argue against.

The game might be fine for new players due it fresh for them. However, as a veteran player the game is incredible mid as fudge. All new content felt fast dry(worse than before). The PVE gameplay feels accessible in wrong way like exemple all classes need to fills 2 mins meta burst, Meanwhile GNB ability "No Mercy" is still do not fit the gcd requirements. Making high ping ability accessible for high ping players is awesome! But, making nearly all classes gameplay dull with no celling of risk is boring like "Removing stance dancing on tanks". The story feels weak after hydelyn saga. Only thing, they made good is the gameplay of PVP and yet 2 player casual queue is not allow on CC(which is a bummer). I still believe the game can be awesome, but right now it feels far away. They seriously need to step it up they're game. It always one good step but 2 step behind. 7.0 needs to be something new not SHB 3.0

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Yes, it absolutely is a "gotcha". It has zero relevance to the topic and zero relevance to the discussion. You are asking what someone's personal interests and reason for playing the game are. That has nothing to do with the topic, and nothing to do with the discussion. It is derailment-lite: an attempt to shift the discussion away from game discussion to a discussion about individual players and their purchasing decisions. It makes it easier to dismiss arguments when you try to portray them as lacking monetary sense or making bad purchase decisions. In essence, you are very much engaging in passive aggressive hostility by shifting the blame from the game to the players. Your "curiosity" is not legitimate and you are encouraged to stick to game discussion. FYI: players can dislike a lot of the game but enjoy one small part of it, such as raiding. However, unlike certain people on the forums, most players do not feel the need to make a post praising the game for every criticism they make.

It also has not got past me that you have intentionally ignored the main chunk of my post (which took up nearly 70% of it in word count) in an attempt to "gotcha" me by focusing on points that you see as easier to argue against.

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There's little reason to address your "main point" as it goes nowhere due to a lack of data. Simple as that there.

It's not a derailing at all nor does it dismiss anything. If anything it a knowledges it. If we go by what you say and the game does nothing right (pure acknowledgement n seeing it from your view) the next question is why are you still paying? That's not being passive aggressive...what is it with you people n using buzzwords (incorrectly mind you) for every damn thing? Don't yall crap on the Twitter side of this community for doing this? Where is this blame shift? Hell where did blame itself even come from? That concept hasn't even been used or brought up til you made it up and added to this (odd cause I remember you telling someone else they were being irrational n making things up basically earlier). Next question...Where's the hostility? I asked a simple question acknowledging n going by your view and that's...hostile now? Isn't your camp the same folks talking about XIV fans being to soft and immature? Like legit I'm confused...

Your points arent solid like you think they are dude. Your hivemind will think they are as per usual as someone is either always right or always wrong here. But I can tell talking with you is only further devolving to the same old nonsensical bs so I say we just agree to disagree n call it.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

There's little reason to address your "main point" as it goes nowhere due to a lack of data. Simple as that there.

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No, actually it isn't as simple as that. I have explained what reasonable people do when data is not available easily. In the real world, scientists, engineers, and policymakers often have to make inferences and deductions when data is scarce. You do not seem to understand that educated claims and arguments CAN still be made even with minimal data. Asking for "data" is a cop-out to pretend that one can make absolutely no claims about the situation to dismiss any and all argument made under uncertainty. Pure mathematics is a discipline that uses precisely zero data. There is such a thing known as logical deductions.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

It's not a derailing at all nor does it dismiss anything. If anything it a knowledges it. If we go by what you say and the game does nothing right (pure acknowledgement n seeing it from your view) the next question is why are you still paying? That's not being passive aggressive...what is it with you people n using buzzwords (incorrectly mind you) for every damn thing? Don't yall crap on the Twitter side of this community for doing this? Where is this blame shift? Hell where did blame itself even come from? That concept hasn't even been used or brought up til you made it up and added to this (odd cause I remember you telling someone else they were being irrational n making things up basically earlier). Next question...Where's the hostility? I asked a simple question acknowledging n going by your view and that's...hostile now? Isn't your camp the same folks talking about XIV fans being to soft and immature? Like legit I'm confused...

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Please stop making bad-faith posts like these. I do not use Twitter. I did not say the game does nothing right. I do not belong to any "camp". You are constructing a strawman.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Your points arent solid like you think they are dude. Your hivemind will think they are as per usual as someone is either always right or always wrong here. But I can tell talking with you is only further devolving to the same old nonsensical bs so I say we just agree to disagree n call it.

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It's only devolving because you are polluting the discourse by using bad-faith argumentative tactics, such as:
- Derailment: by going into a non-sequitur of interrogating why I pay my sub
- Strawmanning: by claiming that I have written opinions that I have never written
- Insults: by calling my posts "nonsensical bs" or using words like "hivemind"
- Concern trolling: by pretending that you are "confused" or "curious" and seeking to attempt to understand my arguments when you, in the very next sentence, insult me.

I strongly advise you to discuss the game in good faith lest you break more forum rules going forward, and reflect on your own method of writing and argumentation and why it poisons the discourse on the forums and creates a negative environment for all, especially towards players who are merely criticizing the game.