Because why not: A Moderate Proposal - SCH

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Were stormblood lillies the single most prominent case that made players doubt the devellopers actually played the classes they designed?

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That was the watershed moment, yes. Back in Heavensward there was a ton of jank and tuning issues. Lilies were the first stark example where I think the most positive thing I saw was "maybe they aren't bad once you play with them". Everywhere online I looked back then was eviscerating Square on what a surprisingly terrible idea they were, wondering how the hell they made it out of the brainstorming step.

Oh man. Yeah, I remember feeling ahead of Stormblood that they were focusing too much on trying to make pretty UI elements for each job without really considering if they were necessary or complementary to each Job's feel.

WHM's Lillies are a great example, but so is SCH's Faerie Gauge, notorious for its sole use being "Fey Union," then and again now that they've removed Fey Blessing from it. Fey Union itself has always been stupid, IMO. Too many buttons to push to get what amounts to what Rouse already did anyways, and they very specifically had to nerf Embrace entering StB just so that Fey Union felt like it contributed something worthwhile. The Aetherflow's UI element is probably more useful because it's more central to how the job operates (I think it should also display Aetherflow's cooldown visually, and this would have made even more sense during StB when Aethergauge usage reduced Aetherflow's cooldown).

I think the best example of the Faerie Gauge being an engaging system was during ShB PVP, actually, when you would generate gauge via healing/damage spells at a rate of 10/20, and then you could convert 50 gauge into a Lustrate charge and a short 150% damage/healing buff. It was a simple, fun and impactful to the game plan of SCH, and it had the added benefit of high risk-high reward where if you played offensively you could be rewarded with more damage and free heals, where if you solely healed you would much more slowly accrue resources and wouldn't be able to maintain the buff for most of the time.

At least Lillies and Faerie Gauge could mostly be ignored. In the worst cases, they completely altered certain jobs to fit their system. MCH was pretty significantly changed so that the heat gauge could be a thing and you had almost control over it until max level (Flamethrower is a vestige of this). BRD was well received, at least. DRK was changed pretty hugely too, but that probably has more to do with the changing cross class to the role action system at the same time.

The job gauges were often a case of systems outside of job design or the battle system arbitrarily affecting job design, rather than for an actual issue that needed addressing.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

While we're tinkering.

Does anybody else think that expediant feels more like a level 50 capstone ability and not a level 90 capstone ability?

It's a little speed and a little damage reduction. Other classes get quite a bit more at 90. It looks like it lines up better with level 50 abilities.

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I would definitely trade Expedient for Sacred Soil. Soil doesn't even give a Regen until level 78 so it would strictly be an upgrade having the speed boost attached to our mitigation until level 78 without any need for the party to stand in a bubble. I wouldn't mind getting Sacred Soil at 90 instead as a capstone ability either. Let me speed up the dungeon runs for every expansion please.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I would definitely trade Expedient for Sacred Soil. Soil doesn't even give a Regen until level 78 so it would strictly be an upgrade having the speed boost attached to our mitigation until level 78 without any need for the party to stand in a bubble. I wouldn't mind getting Sacred Soil at 90 instead as a capstone ability either. Let me speed up the dungeon runs for every expansion please.

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Inb4 random SCH fat-fingered Expedience at Red Girl's forced march mechanic. That oughta be a funny sight though. ;)

<TLDR version>

SCH gets Sacred Soil early on with Lustrate being the level 50 milestone both for Aether use. We may need to shuffle other things to make this work since switching Expedient to be here would make the Aurum Vale dungeon have zero healing Aether usage ... unless we want Expedient to use an Aether ... then maybe give Sacred Soil to the fairy as a cooldown or Fairy Gauge spell? Maybe have it replace Whispering Dawn with its upgraded HoT to it later on? Or the other way around with the HoT first, then damage reduction later.

</TLDR>

I mean, WHM Assize also has the weakness of unwanted hits to that small mud add on a 60 dungeon too. Have to move to the edge of an arena to minimize that.

Roe pretty much made the arguments that level 90 abilities are typically lower priority or upgrade skills to most other classes anyhow. There are a few exceptions though like the mentioned Wyrmwind Thrust on my DRG where it does feel like a decent boost to what I do with the class. More particular on AoEs since we don't have a 4th or 5th combo extension step for it ... yet. They probably could do that too by combining it to the current "Fang and Claw" and "Wheeling Thrust" to change ... I had quick queues on the DRG yesterday night and it froze me away from using SGE for 9 minutes to let me test this again >.>

Anyways, level 50 currently tends to add something a little more to complete the rotations and we get locked out of it for the 49 dungeon Aurum Vale :P No Benediction or Lustrate for that dungeon ... But I had Holy with Swiftcast, Regen and Cure 2 on WHM still. On SCH, I think I last remembered actually having to occasionally alternate Physick due to the Adloquioum shield still not quite breaking yet. No Emergency Tactics yet at that level.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Expedient, if nothing else, is a 10% mit buff for 20s that sticks to allies, addressing one of the weaknesses of SCH: that people need to stand in Soil for the mitigation.

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This. People always forget the damage reduction component of Expedient. It's a 20 second Soil that doesn't require standing in. When the Sprint was 20 seconds - in combat 20 seconds Sprint - it was amazing. I used that in 6.0 for ZodEx (meteors) and HydEx (chakrams, probably her most difficult mechanic, as well as the stack/spread in the final phase) and they made things go WAY more smoothly. Like, they were often the difference between success and wipes. Expedient is one of the most powerful abilities we have in our arsenal. It's absolutely worth the level 90 spot. Especially compared to stuff like Aetherpact and Dissipation.

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Originally Posted by Post

I'm glad the OP responded with what they see the issues of SCH as being. I think it's fun to sometimes imagine specific toolkits or adjustments, but I prefer to focus on what we enjoy and what we don't enjoy with what's there when trying to give constructive dev feedback.

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I think it's instructive to do both. There are things I love about SCH. It has tools for most any situation. It really nails the fantasy of protecting your allies, not just patching up their boo-boos, both in the Job quests, the mechanics of mitigation and shielding, and even the VFX of the various abilities (Succor looks a lot more shielding than Eukrasian Prognosis, for example, with the latter sending a wave of energy out but Succor specifically forming bubbles around each party member; and, of course, there's Soil's ground effect bubble with the flittering barrier animation around the border).

It also does a good job of presenting a tactical field officer leading and augmenting troops in battle, coordinating with their adjunct subordinate, Eos. I always thought that, not the DPS, was SCH's hallmark and class fantasy. It's also why I hate Dissipation as a skill, since it rejects that core of SCH's gameplay and fantasy (working with your faerie partner) and why I dislike Energy Drain optimization, since that actively works against Sacred Soil, one of the Job's iconic moves that I love using.

And unpopular opinion: I actually liked the ShB changes to SCH, and the EW making the pet more responsive.

Those are the things I love about SCH, I think.

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As for the thread:

There are a lot of people here who want all the Healer Jobs dps focused with more dps rotations. I'm not one of those people. I've been advocating for a while for one to be left alone, and agree with the YouTuber Misshapen Chair's video of why healing in FFXIV is bad and his solution ("Probably White Mage."), and I actually like Healers as they are now.

But after repeated attempts to gain traction with the "leave one of the Healer Jobs alone" having failed, I considered an alternative. Changes to one of the already most complicated ones that MOSTLY leaves it alone, but maintains the general level of complexity and playstyle today by trading away a bit of SCH's existing clunk (complexity...sorta, more artificial complexity/difficulty) for a slightly more interesting rotation and smoother overall mechanics to kind of meet in the middle as a bridge we might collectively agree on. I long thought SCH would be the LAST choice to leave more or less alone since people liked its HW and SB incarnations, but these changes are largely a nod to those while striking a middle ground.

And based on how well they've been largely received, I'd say it's a bridge that could work to reach compromise into something everyone can accept and at least be somewhat happy with, as it were.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Were stormblood lillies the single most prominent case that made players doubt the devellopers actually played the classes they designed?

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Probably.

No matter what the perception, they were the absolute worst possible idea. WHM in ARR was fine and in HW was decent, just outshown by AST's utility and heals. WHM just needed a few buffs. Instead, SB was when they decided every Job was getting a Job Gauge ([VOICE=Oprah]"You get a Job Gauge! And YOU get a Job Gauge! AND YOU get a Job Gauge! EVERYONE gets a Job Gauge!!!"[/VOICE]), even if the Job didn'd need one and what they came up with was worse than not giving one at all. With Cleric Stance toggle going away, all WHM needed is what they've needed before and since - a party damage buff, a party mitigation buff (instead they removed Protect and Stoneskin), slightly better MP economy (oddly, they got that right with Thin Air, only to make that the ONE downgrade for WHM from ShB to EW...), and slightly buffed damage output.

To this day I'm convinced before SB they were told EVERY Job HAD to have a Job Gauge, and they literally had no idea what to give WHM, so Lilies were born out of that. It righted itself with the ShB and 6.1 EW implementation, but WHM didn't even need that in 4.0. There was no reason at all for it.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

<TLDR version>

SCH gets Sacred Soil early on with Lustrate being the level 50 milestone both for Aether use. We may need to shuffle other things to make this work since switching Expedient to be here would make the Aurum Vale dungeon have zero healing Aether usage ... unless we want Expedient to use an Aether ... then maybe give Sacred Soil to the fairy as a cooldown or Fairy Gauge spell? Maybe have it replace Whispering Dawn with its upgraded HoT to it later on? Or the other way around with the HoT first, then damage reduction later.

</TLDR>

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Lustrate is the primary method of healing on scholar. Why on earth would you lock that behind level 50 - 45’s bad enough as is. Soil being a non-hp mitigation works well as a capstone skill for scholar, being both visually striking* and complimenting the rest of the skill set. I get that you can’t realistically suggest locking broil behind it but come on now.

*before everyone and their dog got a bubble at least.

Excuse me on Lustrate. I could have sworn that Lustrate was a 50 ability in the past when I was levelling in Heavensward. If so, it must have been changed with me not noticing at level cap already. And also, I wasn't the first person to suggest switching Expedient with Sacred Soil. I was discussing what type of things could potentially occur if a switch was desired between the 2 spells. Aetherflow is a major cooldown SCHs use and making a switch like this would kind of remove an aether spell for levelling unless Expedient became the new spell with an Aether cost.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Excuse me on Lustrate. I could have sworn that Lustrate was a 50 ability in the past when I was levelling in Heavensward. If so, it must have been changed with me not noticing at level cap already. And also, I wasn't the first person to suggest switching Expedient with Sacred Soil. I was discussing what type of things could potentially occur if a switch was desired between the 2 spells. Aetherflow is a major cooldown SCHs use and making a switch like this would kind of remove an aether spell for levelling unless Expedient became the new spell with an Aether cost.

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It was. Sacred Soil used to be 45. Scholar got Lustrate and (Arcanist) Shadowflare at 50 before Square swapped them around.

It's not like SCH is unique in this regard though, look at something like MCH. Ricochet at 50 (130p OGCD), Heated Split Shot (???) at 60, Flamethrower at 70. Only Queen at 80 and Chainsaw at 90 are 'interesting' and even then, Chainsaw is basically Drill 3 in function, nice that it's got AOE to it though.

Rather than saying SCH has problems because Expedient is at 90 but feels like it should be at 50, surely it's more productive to change the 60/70/80 skills to feel better

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

It was. Sacred Soil used to be 45. Scholar got Lustrate and (Arcanist) Shadowflare at 50 before Square swapped them around.

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Probably so SCH has more tools to 'emergency heal' in the 'super difficult noob-slayer dungeon' Aurum Vale, since it syncs you to 49. You'd get more use out of Lustrate than Soil in there and Dzamael, and since you get both within 5 levels of each other it doesn't really change anything else