My take on the simplicity of healers and the healer problem

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Originally Posted by Tint

Didn't they did the same thing when they added AST back then? Just copy/pasted WHM and added the card system to it? >.>

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AST thankfully has branched out since and even back then it had Noct Sect. That said, yes it did and still does share the lv50 WHM kit. Literally just make ED 3min and it's a carbon copy of WHM with cards right now.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Didn't they did the same thing when they added AST back then? Just copy/pasted WHM and added the card system to it? >.>

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It's been about 8 years from that point in time, and HW was a bit spotty with it's class designs to say the least. The comparison should be against the other lv90 healers as they are now, not to lv60 AST as it was back then.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I could say the same thing about cards as an AST main. It's like the community wants everything as DPS centric as possible and then acts surprised when SE deletes stuff. At least let me keep Lord and Lady as RNG now that all cards are Balance and I'm pressing Divination on CD. Riveting.

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The community doesn't "act surprised".
There were a lot of suggestions back then to make cards work without giving you an easy and way too obvious best choice including things like splitting damage and utility cards. SE heavily focusses their game on dps, especially during the expansion AST was introduced but then they act surprised that don't go for the RP gameplay instead of what is, unfortunately obviously, a good choice. That a 20% aoe damage buff would be completely busted isn't rocket science. They also tried to fix Lilies for the entire SB expansion because they couldn't believe that somoene would not spam Cure 1/2 often enough to trigger rng cooldown reaction on a few skills.

But whenever something isn't taken positively by the community as it is, they try to enforce it a bit longer (as in for an entire expansion) like with Lilies and then they simply scrape it completely with a "See! You asked for it! Now look what you did! Now you'll just get a boring version because you didn't like our good, nuanced, RP gameplay version!" and some people in the community are all too happy to blame and point fingers just the same, completely ignoring that that there was always a lot of feedback about questionable design choices and that it SE's job to read and filter feedback and then try to make things work that the community likes at its core but still has flaws.

You can stop lowkey blaming the filthy savage raiders now, it's getting really old.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Everyone was so excited about SGE. When I saw abilities I thought...did they really just copy paste SCH into a new class and called it a day? They took the little smidge of innovation they could think to add to SCH and crammed it into SGE instead.

The healer role is doomed.

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And remember on the Live letter ability preview they literally said (paraphrasing)

"We don't know how to improve scholar anymore"

Yeah, because they took the job improvements and implemented them on SGE.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

AST thankfully has branched out since and even back then it had Noct Sect. That said, yes it did and still does share the lv50 WHM kit. Literally just make ED 3min and it's a carbon copy of WHM with cards right now.

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And somehow they manage to be unable to balance 2 almost identical skillsets without AST being WHM, but better every patch.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

And somehow they manage to be unable to balance 2 almost identical skillsets without AST being WHM, but better every patch.

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As long a they place so much emphasis on buff stacking and 2min burst meta, they never will.
Because the only way to make WHM (and SGE) competetive would be by giving it a proper burst but that would include adding buttons that deal damage instead of yet another generic oGCD heal nobody asked for. As long as they split healers between "11111" and "11111 but with a cool buff everyone loves you for", WHM and SGE will always fall behind in dps over the expansion and be the 2nd choice for groups that go for pushing dps unless really early into tier when people are happy to have some crafted gear. Give it 2-3 weeks and they're left in the dust. And putting Assize on 40s to align with 2min didn't fix it either. Consistent dps is just not competetive as long as we have this 2min burst meta but that's what all healers are. Having a Phlegma or an Assize doesn't change anything.

I think the problem is when you put more pressure on the healers healing wise it makes that job even more complicated. Healers need more than 1 button to attract players. You do more than 1 button spam, then that at the very least makes the job more attractable to new players.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Didn't they did the same thing when they added AST back then? Just copy/pasted WHM and added the card system to it? >.>

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Well, AST did have Nocturnal Sect, all the way until Endwalker release... They could sort of work as a replacement for either WHM or SCH, with the Card system added on. Diurnal Sect with the regens was always better, but it wasn't impossible to play AST as a shield healer.

I mean, as someone whose main healer is WHM, I usually have a "this is cookies for you, tank!" combo of slapping a quick Regen-> Divine Bens -> Aquaveil on them before tankbusters or at the beginning of a pull before going into the usual spam. I'm no shield healer, but it's nice being able to have a dash of mit/shield to lay down once in a while. I doubt we'll see Stoneskin make a comeback because we'll step on other healer mechanics.

Maybe WHM could get some kind of buff with having charged lilies- first one adds potency, then spell haste and finally MP regen in that order. Blood lily for Misery is a damage buff for Glare/Holy/Dia if active. Give people a choice between fast burst and improved "basic" casting by managing their lily garden?

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Originally Posted by ChoDerecho

I mean, as someone whose main healer is WHM, I usually have a "this is cookies for you, tank!" combo of slapping a quick Regen-> Divine Bens -> Aquaveil on them before tankbusters or at the beginning of a pull before going into the usual spam. I'm no shield healer, but it's nice being able to have a dash of mit/shield to lay down once in a while. I doubt we'll see Stoneskin make a comeback because we'll step on other healer mechanics.

Maybe WHM could get some kind of buff with having charged lilies- first one adds potency, then spell haste and finally MP regen in that order. Blood lily for Misery is a damage buff for Glare/Holy/Dia if active. Give people a choice between fast burst and improved "basic" casting by managing their lily garden?

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Now THIS I like. If you want to keep WHM "passive", adding passive Astrodyne effects to holding lilies (where the strongest buff comes from the earliest one, so you avoid the feelsbad Glaremage trap of never using lilies) while also rewarding spending them. Sounds like a fantastic way to create choice-based gameplay where you're actually encouraged to skillfully manage something instead of just randomly spamming healing spells whenever and getting a boring flower blast as a reward for occasionally pressing your not!Lustrate.