How does FF14 compare to WoW? (And other MMOs)

On the matter of Healers and Tanks from Ralph2449's Post, unfortunately, those two Roles are quite badly designed compared to the Dps Jobs, in both pve and pvp content.

On the matter of Healers, theyre in a technical sense, all the exact same as WHM is. They have way too many Healing abilities (14 for WHM, 11+3 from SCH because of Fairy, and 11 from AST) and not even a handful of attack skills (one basic attack spell, one aoe, one dot is the norm. WHM gets a discountprice foul and SCH has Monster Energy Drain which Squeenix really hates from the bottom of their heart. AST used to have lord of crowns dealing damage but isnt allowed anymore because people had memory issues memorizing every single card having a different effect, so now its just flat dps boosts.)

On the matter of Tanks, theyre using the Warrior Job as a reference of designing the rest of them. if you compare the skills on paper right next to each other, you will notice that theyre all basically the same with very few minor changes, like the immortality buttons like living dead, holmgang, panic bubble and Superbold having slight drawbacks, except for PLD because of special privileges, and gunbreaker having a additional dps rotation compared to the rest of the gang.

As for PvP, oh boy where do i even start. PvP in this game is designed arround TEAM focused fights, not man-on-man combat so you can pretty much guess you share on this already. to keep things short, Healers are the actual tanks in pvp, Tanks are just bullies knocking people off ledges or just being a mild annoyance and DPS is cannonfodder, Ranged dps is everyones favorite because attacking from a distance, while melee dps gets for the drawback of actually having to walk into the face of everyone else a massive dps burst that melts anyone in hand-to-hand combat, especially if limit break is used.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Raiding doesn't seem like a good "game" concept. You don't see single player games dedicated to something so niche.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes, raiding exists in single player games.
But I think you're reading their comment a little slant.

There are single player games with raiding, but there aren't really single player games all about raiding to the point where it is the games concept. Where it is dedicated to the idea of raiding to the exclusion of other things.

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That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is. Raiding is just a method of giving players stuff that scratch the itch. It scratches the itch of cooperative play, and it scratches the itch of completing difficult content. It's not in single player games because single player games are not cooperative at all.

Now is there a game that revolves around cooperative play? Yeah of course. Plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around difficult content? Yeah plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around cooperative play that tackles difficult content? Yes, a lot of it actually.

So a game that revolves around raiding as a concept (Monster Hunter) can work. It's just up to the devs if they would like to implement that or not.
Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

theyre using the Warrior Job as a reference of designing the rest of them. if you compare the skills on paper right next to each other, you will notice that theyre all basically the same with very few minor changes

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You could just as easily get Paladin and say they designed the rest of the tanks after it. Both Paladin and Warrior were release jobs. In fact they had to give abilities that Paladin had to Warriors - such as Provoke and Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is.

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Not necessarily.
The term is so vague that it can easily encompass single player games where you raid with AI allies.
As long as you're part of a group (human or otherwise) the term sticks.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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You're right... to a point.
In this context Ihowever, I think it's a fair statement.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about raiding being about socializing and cooperative play. But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.
If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

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Originally Posted by Raelsar

WoW has left a LOT of bad blood behind it because of how the game has evolved over the years, the majority of which have pushed it in one particular direction -- towards the hardcore, ultra-competitive and endlessly repetitive endgame.

But being the breakout hit of the MMORPG genre, it attracted all kinds of players; many of which were simply looking for another "RPG", likely viewing the whole MMO aspect as a novelty. Due to the aforementioned changes, a lot of the former audience has either drifted away or turned sour towards the game; it wouldn't be inaccurate to say many of them have a chip on their shoulder over it. Conversely, those who liked those changes over the years because the game increasingly became their sort of thing... they're practically sycophantic towards it. Getting the two parties to have a reasonable discussion is easier said than done.

The shortest version is that if you consider yourself a competitive and goal-oriented player who enjoys the endgame to the point you'd prefer the rest of it didn't exist? Go with WoW.
If you aren't competitive and want to focus on the more traditional RPG aspects like storytelling, exploration, visual customization... or pretty much anything else that isn't strictly endgame? Go with FFXIV.

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What's really ironic there is that when WoW first came out, it gained so much popularity because it was the alternative to the niche hardcore raiding games like EverQuest. Even though EQII came out at almost the same time and also was supposed to be an alternative to the group-centric EQ, WoW was even more accessible than EQII. Now they are both games that cater to the very audience they patterned themselves against.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is. Raiding is just a method of giving players stuff that scratch the itch. It scratches the itch of cooperative play, and it scratches the itch of completing difficult content. It's not in single player games because single player games are not cooperative at all.

Now is there a game that revolves around cooperative play? Yeah of course. Plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around difficult content? Yeah plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around cooperative play that tackles difficult content? Yes, a lot of it actually.

So a game that revolves around raiding as a concept (Monster Hunter) can work. It's just up to the devs if they would like to implement that or not.
Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege. But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

Honestly, how many questions are you going to ask before you use a search engine to build an impression yourself?

Is this an attention thing?

my personal take

- FF14 has better story, while wow also have good story, their story is a little messy for me because in wow i dont feel like iam actually "involved" in it, it feels like my character just "happened" to be there because... reasons.

- FF14 combat pace is much more manageable for me, the "fast paced" of FF14 come from skill weaving while in wow its because the 1.5 GCD. and this is shown because i actually can play as good healer in FF14 while in wow as healer i cant keep up with the pace, aside from tank they just die within 2-4 hit and it really caught me off guard everytime.

- the community obviously, both game has their ups and down but FF14 got more ups for me, in wow if you can find the guild for you, you will feel at home but outside? in general talk, party talk, dont expect warm welcome. meanwhile in FF14 you can still find good talk/chat even outside guild chat

- connected to my previous point, because of it FF14 also has better customary/tradition compare to wow, no one will vote kick you just because you fail once or twice, party will not disband just because one or two wipe, in FF14 some players even give you help like how to do it properly, or ask the party to take it slowly, etc, no one care with your 1% dps loss (at least not on top 1% raid content)

- iam not into pvp so i found the overall atmosphere/setting in FF14 is more "at home" for me, FF14 is all about grand adventures, band together to defeat evil, social interaction with emotes, playing instrument, etc. while its also similar in wow, majority of the interaction is a show off, trolling or pvp right away (in non pvp server i lost count how many times i got duel request from someone TEN level higher than me, like what do you expect me to do here?)

- this is probably starting BFA but i found enemy placement in wow is just full annoyance compare to FF14, in mmorpg i tend to avoid enemy mobs unless i have to kill them, and in most mmorpg the dev always put enemy where you can actively avoid them, but in wow enemy placement is so tight i tend to encounter them most of the time which annoy me so much

- one thing that i can vouch for wow compare to FF14 is the feel of "hits" in combat, in this category i actually found wow is much much better than FF14, when i cast fireball or swing my sword as warrior, the hit connected to enemy feel way better than FF14, the sound and the effect has more "oomph" to it.

wow is definitely a great game, but the combat pace, the setting, the tone of the game and the overall feeling is definitely not for me.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Not necessarily.
The term is so vague that it can easily encompass single player games where you raid with AI allies.
As long as you're part of a group (human or otherwise) the term sticks.

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I honestly don't consider content with AI allies as raiding. I see them more as single player content due to the fact that you're playing with bots, not other people. I also apply the same logic with PvP, "PvP" with bots isn't really PvP, it needs players, like how Raiding needs players. Unless the AI starts speaking in voice chat and becoming sentient, then I'll keep holding that view.

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But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.

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Why not both? It's fun and it's fun to do it with people. That's like implying that playing Team sports isn't fun. Team sports are fun because the game is fun and playing with other people are fun.

And it's not like raiders don't socialize either, we do. There's multiple discord servers related to raiding, people arguing about rotations, theorycrafting about melds, sharing fight-specific strats and tips. Like even just doing content is socializing, especially with a group of friends. People make fun of each other for getting damage down, Healers call out what they heal or who they will rez. People call out who's north blue or south blue, and people talk shit between pulls, and meme between pulls.

Hell, I've made a lot of my good friends from raiding in this game. We're not all robots that only cares about the order of how we press our buttons. There's a reason that it's called a raiding community.

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If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

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I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

What it definitely needs is repeatable raids and content that's outside of the 8-Man Savages and Ultimate. And frankly, it can benefit from that focus a whole lot. Maybe Savage dungeons? Maybe Savage raid mutations? I don't know, but it needs something.

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Originally Posted by Edax

But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege.

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But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

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This is a direct criticism to FFXIV content in general. They're pretty static, so after doing it once, most people just either farm for gear or do it once and it's over. I'll give you that the choreographed static mechanics doesn't work in single player, but it's because it doesn't work as repeatable content as well. I'm 100% in support of making raid content replayable other than static.

Regardles though, most games that does have raiding aren't like this. Some, like Destiny 2, rely on the non-static raid design and the good gunplay to make things repeatable. Some, like WoW, rely on pure raid design that's mostly unpredictable, and some like unconventional games like GTFO and Monster Hunter rely on good 'ole RNG to make it replayable.

I agree that FFXIV raiding needs work, but saying that no game can actually revolve around raiding and have it fun is just an uninformed opinion.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

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I am genuinely confused about this statement. Mmos by design heavily rely on content being repeatable. For example you have to keep doing the same content over and over again to get gear whether that's through currency or loot drops.