A question for the BLU peeps

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which still has nothing to do with your character level or doesn't require a specific order at which you learn the spells...as opposed to all other mages except Summoners.
Especially in games with a job system, where you can do the whole story without leveling your BLU anytime, which is - GASP!- exactly how FFXIV works.

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Semantically it doesn't have anything to do with your character level, you are still gated by your level from actually getting the spells. Which is - GASP! - no different from acquiring skills through exp grinding, let's not forget that a majority of skills aren't even unlocked in ff xiv through leveling, and are instead unlocked through JOB QUESTS. You know, solo instances with their own solo content and fights with objectives and such that are unique to them?

Ala rogue's stealth mission that couldn't possibly have fit into XIV and obviously required it's own separate content because, well, you've never snuck around as a thief before in order to learn your skills!

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Semantically it doesn't have anything to do with your character level, you are still gated by your level from actually getting the spells.

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So you're just going to ignore every proof like "Quina can learn any spell at level 1", "Khimari can Lancet any target without ever moving on the sphere grid", "Quistis can use any dropped item at her starting level", "A lvl0 Blue Mage could use any spell learn by someone else in FFV" ?

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Which is - GASP! - no different from acquiring skills through exp grinding

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Things that BLU precisely won't have to do. You will be able to learn Bad Breath from seeing a Morbol attacking someone else in your party. It means you could basically be joined by a lvl70 punching bag just to survive. The only thing that will be tied to any level is the probability of learning a move, and it's not even your level, but the level of your target. The few exceptions will be spells that requires you going into an instance, and even then it will likely be for learning and not for using.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

Also to answer the OP's question- I want a BLU playable in all content that every other job can access, full stop, no matter what sacrifices to be made to accomplish that.

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So you do not care about the concept of BLU where the core of the class is learning and using powerful monster skills, but rather you just want to play a re-skinned caster that has the name Blue Mage. Thats essentially what youre advocating for.

So many other jobs have been gutted from their core identities to fit into the game, it's baffling why Blue Mage had to be the line in the sand for the developers that THIS job has to be pure and loyal to the original concept of the job. Monk should be the high damage, high HP, low defense bruiser of the game, but it gets beaten out for damage by summoner, has the same defense as a ninja or samurai, and has less HP than a dragoon. Red mage has barely any melee abilities and was made into primarily a casting job. Bard was merged with ranger. Dark knight can't use its HP as a resource.... I could go on, but you get the idea.

Blue mage could have been made into a job that is unique from other blue mages in its method of play, but still a playable job for the game. It's disappointing that its being added more as content than as a job.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

So many other jobs have been gutted from their core identities to fit into the game, it's baffling why Blue Mage had to be the line in the sand for the developers that THIS job has to be pure and loyal to the original concept of the job.

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Because past Blue Mages could fit any role efficiently, which does not work with the holy trinity...and was overpowered...especially in the first game it appeared.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Blue mage could have been made into a job that is unique from other blue mages in its method of play, but still a playable job for the game. It's disappointing that its being added more as content than as a job.

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First off, jobs are content.

Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

Anyone want to take a stab at that? Someone?

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Two things:
First; Of the hundreds upon hundreds of monster skills available in FFXIV, why do you assume that the devs will be forced to pick only abilities that will break the game?

Second; The same enemy skill is always going to have different stats for the player and the monster, that's an inevitability. Heck, it'll have different stats depending on which monster is using it, or what level the player is/what gear they have equipped. Saying that blue magic not being a 1-to-1 with the enemy skills is detrimental to the job is silly. Even the Limited version of BLU will be balanced for it's own content, not completely matched to the monster versions of the spells.

Okay, third thing:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

The argument to just "Balance it for party play" means making it just a reskinned BLM/SMN/RDM.

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Is Ninja just a reskinned Monk? Is Samurai just a reskinned Ninja? I cannot believe how often I see this nonsense get posted.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

First off, jobs are content.

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That is partially correct. There's the process of leveling, and there are the job quests. But jobs are, first and foremost, a lens through which you experience the game. I can run O12 on my BLM or on my AST. I will experience the content differently every time by virtue of playing a different role, and that particular job within that role. But if there is no content to run on that job, that job is meaningless. BLU will have the acquisition of skills, and the Masked Carnival, yes. But it is unlike all other jobs in too many ways, and there's the concern many of us have about its longevity. Can we really expect them to keep feeding BLU additional content? All other jobs get content supplements by virtue of having the rest of the game unlocked. And in that sense, BLU really is more 'content' than a job.

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Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters?

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The same way RDM, SMN and BLM all play differently. They do play differently, you're aware of that, yes? Or that all melee dps play differently. They have core similarities, but they're not reskins of each other.

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Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

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Insta-death skills and debuffs didn't work at 100% in other games so I don't see why people, including the devs, expect them to work here. Yoshi-P thinking Level 5 Death should have 100% success rate on the Omegas in O12S is the exception to the rule.

D) Added as it is, with skills that it have being monitored and the most balanced ones being picked for a "matchmaking/current content mandatory" set that allows normal use of matchmaking and entrance into the most recent savage raid and extreme primals.

There is no reason why we can't have both. The full arsenal won't be available freely, that's obvious. The most current raid tier shouldn't allow the overpowered Blue Mage either. But there is no issue with picking the most balanced skills, make a fixed, uncustomizable set of skills that are automatically picked for Duty Finder or current savage/extreme party finder parties, and leave the rest of skills for the remaining content that wouldn't be broken by an overpowered Blue Mage (past raid tiers through party finder, soloing etc.).

That being said, it does require time and extended testing, so I see nothing bad in implementing it without those features. As I've been saying since the day of the live letter, this is an experiment in progress. It will evolve. The worst thing that can be done to it is making developers think that it's either one or the other, when the best option is both.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Insta-death...Yoshi-P thinking Level 5 Death should have 100% success rate on the Omegas in O12S is the exception to the rule.

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To be fair, there were instant-kills in Final Fantasy that did work universally. The most obvious is Zanmato of Yojimnbo in FFX which in its revised form could be forced to be a very frequent skill that will instantly kill anything at all in the game, including the most secret super-boss. Then there is the fact that Phoenix Down is instant-kill on any zombie/undead, even if it's a boss, in some games at least. Doom Train and Yu-Yaevon come to mind. Though bosses aren't actually undead usually and cannot be made zombies.

Yoshida also didn't say anything about it being 100% skill. But even if it's got 5% chance of working, it's still going to be broken.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

So you do not care about the concept of BLU where the core of the class is learning and using powerful monster skills, but rather you just want to play a re-skinned caster that has the name Blue Mage. Thats essentially what youre advocating for.

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And you are literally the only person saying it has to be a 'reskin' of other casters. Does it not occur to you that BLM, SMN and RDM all play differently?