Parsers make you stupid

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Originally Posted by Theodric

More and more people seem to be using them. I loathe them, to be honest - they bring the sort of toxicity into the game that I want to leave behind after encountering it in other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

For hard content youll be playing with people who probably all consent to thier use. The real problem is the toxicity they create in pf/df.

I could see an ingame parser for alex savage. A parser used in any other way is just harassment.

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Parsers do not cause toxicity. Players doing the same static content over and over again builds toxicity. There is a point where players don't really want to be doing the content, but are there anyway because of the weekly grind or social agreements. Plus damage dealing isn't something intuitive enough for an untrained human being to pick up like tanking or healing. The signs that someone is doing it right are hidden in a mountain of numbers. The parser is just performing the courtesy of adding those up for you. Depending on perspective, the problem is either people not looking at the numbers in the context of the situation at hand or the very existence of damage dealer as a role.

Parsers don't make better players, knowing your class inside and out does. Parser as a tool is good though but not if it causes people to start being dicks and ignoring mechanics just to get higher dps. Tunnel vision I think is top reason why raids wipe.

Parsers, like many artificial 'aids' to play in games change the nature of the game. IMHO, over use and over dependence on parser data makes people pay overly much attention to their damage numbers at the expense of everything else - and in particular working as a team and performing their role excellently.

Tanks should be more attentive to aggro management, damage mitigation, picking up adds, making sure the healer doesn't get left in the crap, that kind of thing; but NOT paying more attention to maximizing their damage output for their parse. Healers should be paying attention to tank health, watching aggro, checking statuses, keeping half an eye on the damage dealers we all know forget to evade AoE attacks and making sure they are safe themself; long before even thinking about looking at their damage numbers for their parse. Damage dealers should be paying attention to target priority, position, evading AoE attacks, watching the amount of aggro they build, keeping an eye on the healer so they don't get stuck on a limb, when possible maintaining their rotations, and of course managing their DPS checks carefully; long before they start focusing on their DPS numbers for a parse.

The point is that a dead tank is no use even if their parsed DPS output was record breaking. A healer that can out DPS BRD or MCH consistently is utterly pointless if tanks or damage dealers are dying during the fight. Damage dealers with record parsed DPS re only useful if they can maintain that high output without requiring everyone else in the party to compromise their roles to support the all out DPS play focused solely on maintaining peak DPS regardless of incoming AoE or damage.

I'd have thought that people would have woken up to the fact that when everyone plays their role to the max, the team as a whole functions better than it does when everyone is trying to out DPS each other; because DPS is king and some pillock with a parser might criticize their play because their DPS is somehow to low. As if the arbitrary standard, set by said pillock, is somehow an objective measure of a player's ability, rather than a measure of said pillocks' tunnel vision.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

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Then going by that logic, it's also considered harassment to others to queue up for an 8 man raid while not knowing your job or rotation.

If a fights mechanics are being executed fine, yet they're still pulling a whole 400 DPS, then there isn't much you can do to help them. Especially if you do not know their class, and anything you do tell them should have been stuff they learned on their own, if they put any tiny ounce of effort into it.

A1 is literally a practice dummy fight, there is absolutely no reason someone should be that low in DPS, AS A DPS JOB, unless they're screwing up so damn bad and have no idea what any of their abilities even do. It's their job to know the job they're playing as, not mine. If they're holding the group back with low DPS and we're hitting enrage timers because of it, it's their problem, not mine, especially if I'm doing more DPS than they are in my tanking stance the entire time.

It's their problem. If I know the job they're playing enough to point out what they're doing wrong and give them tips, I will, but 90% of the time the person turns out to be a snobby "Don't tell me how to play my job" idiot who gets attitude with you for trying to offer advice. But if they've created a problem for themselves by not reading a damn thing or paying attention to a single thing while leveling, that is their problem.

Though I'm sure many of the people against parsers in this thread are those exact kinds of people.

Some people say public parsers should be allowed because otherwise dps players have it much easier than tanks and healers whos performance can easily be judged. The way I see it, tanks and healers have it easier (at least outside savage) because when they get to certain skill level the only way to improve is to help another role (dps). Dps however has no "skill cap" to reach, and people demand more and more so that runs go faster.

Tank skills: (can't use cd or hold aggro)---------------(holds aggro and uses cd)

Healer skills: (heals too little, people die)-------------(heals enough without overhealing)

Dps skills: (too little dps, enrage)-----------------------(does enough dps)--------(more dps)----(more dps)----(more dps)--->

The problem with pugs is that if they are parsing they will demand higher than "enough dps", especially if the content has been out for a long time. I saw dps complaints regularly in Crystal Tower when I first started playing, even though the groups never wiped to enrage. This is why I don't think the game should ever allow public parsers. It would be used for measuring epeen, harassing others and demanding dps performance above the requirement. A personal parser however would be fine and it could even discourage people from downloading the group parsers, and therefore reduce the negative effects I described above.

Parsers are the most useful tool dps have. I support there use. Any person created group should be able to use them. Any DF group should only show yourself. People who form groups including PF should be able to see the groups dps. If some people are holding the group back, they should be removed. Why should my time be wasted because you are not capable of pulling your own weight. I don't play games to give charity clears to strangers, my play time is valuable. People who expect a carry are worse than elitist jerks. And some people don't know they are not that good, and may need to learn to get better. Many years ago I was a keyboard turning clicking newb. I got a bunch of crappie for it, but I didn't know any better. I decided to change how I played. And I'm grateful for the asshats who drove me to it. I've become a good player.

High dps can also hold back the party, and when they do remove them? If everyone did that no one would learn. DPS when you can, but not sacrificing survivability. Do not over stress your healer. Also don't ever have to touch a parser to do high dps that comes naturally as you learn your class and how to handle bosses and their mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

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Saying "you need to step your game up" is needed occasionally in expert dungeons because a sometimes people are unnaturally bad. I've had been in LS in the past where I refused to run dungeons with several people because they were so bad, NOT because they couldn't play, but because they were always watching netflix, surfing imgur/reddit, whatever while playing and either just hit a macro to do an attack rotation or spammed only a single ability. There's not so good dps/heals/tanking and there's obviousily I either bought this account or not playing attention bad.

Lower dps/heals/tanking I can deal with if they are undergeared, newish, or reasonably close. Unfortunitly I have been running into alot of PTs in daily experts were 1 or 2 players are obviousily not trying and they are horribly bad. They I call out and vote kick sometimes if they don't step up. At level 60 its not my job to explain to someone how to play their class reasonably.

I can be patient for reasonable reasons, but if your making a dungeon run take double or triple the normal time because your too busy watching TV, or never bothered trying to understand the basics of your dps rotation at 60, I got no time for that.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

This is not a problem with the parser, this is just a problem with someone who doesn't know how to read a parser.

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And? What's the point of saying this? Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with parsers. SE has one of their own. The problem is the community at large cannot be trusted to us them properly such that they do far far more harm then good.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

If a fights mechanics are being executed fine, yet they're still pulling a whole 400 DPS, then there isn't much you can do to help them.

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There's a reason why that person isn't doing better dps. Bad gear. Not paying attention. Doesn't know mechanics. It's not an uncaused quantum fluctuation. There's a reason for it. If you can't offer up a solution then you're even more useless then the person doing poor dps.