Nobody said HQ will be more difficult to make. Everything points towards HQ synths being exactly as difficult as NQ synths, so your argument is completely invalid. Also, being 20, 30, pick your high number, ranks above an item will make your HQ rate skyrocket under the current system just as it did in FFXI. It is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by MariyaShidou
[dev1016] Post 1.20 HQ Crafting
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08-27-2011, 01:06 AMFrein
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08-27-2011, 01:26 AMAeyisWe playing the same game here? I'm skilling on recipes 7 ranks above my own and i can get a +1 off those fairly easily..Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
For a +2 or even +3 youd need about +10 ranks or such anything else is just bonus.
Also the most valuable HQ items right now arent items you could possible be +10 ranks of, let alone +20 and people seem to HQ those often enough...
So if you dont actually have experience crafting HQ items, why are you posting your opinion so adamantly here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
And i do hope you dont consider a +1 ''HQ'' given that ive just posted an example on getting regular +1's on stuff +7 ranks on me >.> -
08-27-2011, 04:36 AMArcellNobody said HQ won't be more difficult to make. There's nothing that points toward either side however we are both speculating here. Until they issue an official statement, neither of us know anything about it. Thus your argument is completely invalid as well by your logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
Anyway, how do people feel about these changes with the new materia info? I mean considering the amount of gear that will leave the system each day in materia conversions and failed attachments, it almost seems necessary to simplify the gear making process. -
08-27-2011, 06:40 AMAmineri
(note: I posted this in the thread in general at first, but it's a little chunky for that venue, so I've reposted it over here to try and get some feedback)
I've been digging a bit into the example high level recipes that Yoshi-P posted (courtesy of the translation by the fearless Bayohne), and some of the results surprised me.
Key take-away here is that there are SIX (6) ingredients that must be made HQ in order for an HQ final result. Also note that THREE (3) of these are Cobalt Plates. Recall that there is no skimping any more. Every single ingredient to the recipe must be HQ!Quote:
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■Cobalt Sabatons (Armorer Recipe)
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(Equipment Level: 49) *High-Level Feet Gear (For Tanking)
Cobalt Sabatons
├ △Cobalt Plate ×3
├ ▲Cobalt Rings ×1
├ □Boar Leather ×1
└ ■Electrum Ingot ×1
Consumed Catalysts
Earth Crystal ×2
Ice Shard ×3
Here was the surprising part to me. On my first couple of read-throughs, I had thought that the general rule was: Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Finish Item. But here we see an ingredient (Cobalt Plate) made from another ingredient (Cobalt Ingot). Also, note that now a Plate takes TWO (2) Ingots. The old recipe for plates required a single ingot. This will make creating HQ Cobalt Plates a lot harder then the other three ingredients.Quote:
Recipes for Ingredients
△Cobalt Plate (Armorer Recipe)
└ ○Cobalt Ingot ×2
Here is the Cobalt Ingot recipe. A key piece of missing information is the number of ingots produced. The current recipe for ingots is 5 nuggets ~> 1 ingot, so making 1 ingot is a viable assumption. However 4 ore ~> 12 nuggets ~> 2.2 ingots, so 2 ingots is also a viable assumption.Quote:
○Cobalt Ingot (Armorer Recipe)
├ Specular Iron Ore ×2
└ Iron Ore ×2
No surprises in the rest. The other three ingredients are the usual Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Final Item.Quote:
▲Cobalt Rings (Armorer Recipe)
├ Specular Iron Ore ×2
└ Iron Ore ×2
□Boar Leather (Tanner Recipe)
├ Boar Hide ×1
└ Alumen ×1
■Electrum Ingot (Goldsmith Recipe)
└ Electrum Ore ×4
HQ Assumptions:
Now, we have to make a few assumptions. How hard will it be to HQ an Ingredient, given HQ materials? The harder assumption is that it will be as difficult as creating an +3 material / part result under the current system. An easier assumption would be creating a +2 or +3 result.
Using the Mooglebox HQ calculator, and assuming a very competent crafter (equal rank synth, a starting Quality of 300 from HQ mats, and 100 Quality gained during synthesis), a finish Quality of 400 yields about a 2% chance to +3 and a 6% chance to +2.
- Harder assumption : 2% chance ~> expected 50 synths to make HQ Ingredient
- Easier assumption : 8% chance ~> expected 12.5 synths to make HQ Ingredient
Hardest Assumptions:
However, the Cobalt Plates are another matter. Since we need 3 plates, the harder assumption requires 150 plate synths to generate this. However, this requires 300 HQ Cobalt Ingots (remember that it is TWO (2) Cobalt Ingots per Cobalt Plate).
In turn, to generate 300 HQ ingots, using the same harder assumptions as above, would require a staggering 15,000 Cobalt Ingot synths. This in turn would require 30,000 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 30,000 HQ Iron Ore. At 2 minutes per synth, these 15,000 Cobalt synths would represent over 20 days of synthing time. Clearly this would be HARD!! (or at least tedious).
Second Hardest Assumptions
Easing up on the requirements a bit, if the ingot synth generates TWO (2) ingots per synth, then only half the number of Cobalt Ingot synths would be required -- a mere 7,500, taking a mere 10 days of crafting to accomplish. This is probably a bit of overkill on the difficulty as well.
Third Hardest Assumptions
The next step of difficulty is if the ingot synth generates 1 ingot, but a (current system) result of +2 or +3 makes on HQ result.
In this case, to generate 3 plates requires an expected 37.5 plate synths. Doubling this (needing 2 ingots per synth) means a requirement of 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots.
To generate the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots, a total of 937.5 ingot synths are expected. This would require 1875 HQ Specular Iron Ore, and 1875 HQ Iron Ore, and an estimated 31 hours of synthing (at 2 minutes per synth) to process. This is now entering the realm of the possible, but 31 hour of grinding ingot synths to generate enough Cobalt Ingots is unlikely to be anyone's definition of "easy"
Easiest Assumptions
If the HQ rate is the most generous (same as +2 or +3 of current system), and the ingot synth generate TWO (2) ingots per synth, then the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots could be generated with only 469 Cobalt Ingot Synths. This would require 'only' 938 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 938 HQ Iron Ore, with a processing time of 15.5. hours.
Conclusion
This synth is not necessarily the definition of "easy". Even with the most generous assumptions (an 8% chance to HQ PLUS the new ingot recipes generating two ingots per synth), well over 16 hours of crafting time and over 2000 units of HQ materials (expected values, so subject to luck/chance) are required in order to make an HQ pair of Cobalt Sabatons.
Further, this does NOT include the time / cost for upgrading the sabatons using the recipe for dyeing them red. The dyeing recipe requires an additional Cobalt Plate. From above, each plate is taking about 5 hours of time.
On top of this, with the new materia system, the chance of this item being destroyed when attempting to socket with two or materia may be high.
This system is starting to look less easy.
Please give me some feedback and let me know if you think any of my assumptions are wildly off. At first glance I was not a fan of these recipe changes, but went through the exercise of seeing just what the numbers said, and the result surprised me. -
08-27-2011, 06:57 AMMadruk
Get +2 in 1.19. Wait for 1.20. Convert your +2 to HQ. Profit.
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08-27-2011, 06:57 AMAmineri
Based on my analysis above, the requirement that all ingredients be HQ is a key part of the new HQ system. It is the key that allows SE to scale the difficulty fairly smoothly as item rank/value increases.
The Cobalt Sabaton recipe clearly shows this. I'll use the numbers from the most generous HQ assumptions.
Three of the ingredients (Boar Leather, Electrum Ingot, Cobalt Rings) are fairly easy to make. Each item takes 12 or 13 synths to generate the requisite HQ item. This is about 30 minutes per HQ ingredient.
The other three ingredients (the three Cobalt Plates) are fiendishly difficult to make. Each Plate requires about 169 synths in order to create the requisite HQ item. This is about 5 hours per HQ ingredient.
By varying the number of 2 step synth chains relative to the number of 3 step synth chains, the overall difficulty of creating an HQ item can be carefully and gradually controlled. Essentially, each 3 step synth is roughly ten times the difficulty of a 2 step synth.
Example recipes, from easy to hard.
3 2step ~~~~~~~> Difficulty 3
4 2step ~~~~~~~> Difficulty 4
5 2step ~~~~~~~> Difficulty 5
6 2step ~~~~~~~> Difficulty 6
1 3step, 1 2step ~> Difficulty 11
1 3step, 3 2step ~> Difficulty 13
2 3step, 1 2step ~> Difficulty 21
3 3step, 2 2step ~> Difficulty 32
Now, what happens if the requirement that all ingredients be HQ is removed? The most popular suggestion is that the fraction of HQ ingredients = probability of success.
In the reference sabaton recipe, clearly people would simply not make the HQ Cobalt Plates. Creating the three simpler HQ Ingredients take 1.5 hours, and yields a 50% chance of success (3/6 ingredients HQ), compared to 16.5 hours to make all six HQ ingredients to achieve a 100% chance of success.
In fact, making only ONE HQ ingredient would require 0.5 hours, with a 16.7% chance of success. Listing out all of the possibilities gives:
1 : 0.5 hours / 0.167 = 3 HQs / hour
2 : 1.0 hours / 0.333 = 3 HQs / hour
3 : 1.5 hours / 0.500 = 3 HQs / hour
4 : 6.5 hours / 0.667 = 9.75 HQs / hour
5 : 11.5 hours / 0.833 = 13.8 HQs / hour
6 : 16.5 hours / 1.000 = 16.5 HQs / hour
In the end, removing the strict restriction on requiring all ingredients in a recipe to be HQ eliminates SE's ability to scale difficulty of making an HQ synthesis. -
08-27-2011, 07:19 AMSorel
Amineri, what if the Development Team simply extends the 100% guarantee HQ rule to ALL crafted items ... not just Finished Products?
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08-27-2011, 09:30 AMFrein"Fairly easily" as in 1-2 out of 30-50 synths? Because that's what I get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeyis
Irrelevant. Do you not read my posts? I said high rank items are fine and that the problem lies with lower rank items that can be monopolized by high rank crafters. If you can HQ 70% of your synths using NQ mats, you'll easily push those 1-2 out of 30-50 crafters out of the market, which is exactly what happened in FFXI. It's basic economics.Quote:
Also the most valuable HQ items right now arent items you could possible be +10 ranks of, let alone +20 and people seem to HQ those often enough...
Why shouldn't I consider +1 a HQ? It's not NQ, so what is it if it isn't HQ?Quote:
And i do hope you dont consider a +1 ''HQ'' given that ive just posted an example on getting regular +1's on stuff +7 ranks on me >.>
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08-27-2011, 09:52 AMtymora
All arguments are moot here. Gonna be 1000x worse trying to attach 5 materias than HQing something.
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08-27-2011, 05:11 PMAmineriYes, if using all HQ gathered / dropped materials results in a 100% success rate to generate an HQ ingredient, then the process become as simple as making an NQ item, assuming NQ ingredients. However, the following quote from Yoshi-P leads me to believe that it is not:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel
Bolding was added for emphasis. I dug into the actual translation, and the phrase that Bayohne translated as "ingredients" was 中間素材. The first kanji pair 中間, essentially means intermediate, middle or interim, while the second kanji pair 素材 means material. So, when Bayohne says ingredient, think "intermediate material".Quote:
Basically, in order to synthesize an HQ final item, HQ versions of every ingredient must be used. Players are guaranteed to synthesize HQ items if all the ingredients used are HQ. However, it will be very difficult to obtain HQ versions of all ingredients.
To me, this points out a distinction between "intermediate material" and "raw material" that is not currently in the game, and is not reflected very strongly in Bayohne's post. Following this line of thought, the creation of the HQ "intermediate materials" from "raw materials" will be challenging, and require a degree of luck. Once these HQ "intermediate materials" are created, however, the creation of the final item is 100%. All of the time, luck, and skill are front-loaded into creating the intermediate mats.
I could, of course, be completely wrong.