We want cleric stance

With CS you should have 2 healers in the PT maybe, but since we can be so much healer
Just remember 5 WHMs in CS spam Holy XD.
also have a WHM doing Holy in CS is as good than any BLM (exept you cannot get so much mana back)
Tank don't have equal DPS than a true DPS, even when war is bursting and make pretty high damage, when he don't burst he can't be as damaging than a other melee, he still weaker.
Even if CS got back, it's still unbalanced how the dps from healer can match a dps one.
when healer was with CS, we don't see tank compleaining about how a healer have a better dps than my war or pld.
Well i think if CS got back it still need to get a nerf anyway to be balanced ?

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Originally Posted by Slib

Yes you can, when being forced into Shield Oath would nerf your damage by 20% flat, and not have the extra auto attack damage. The OP is saying to force tanks into their defensive stance since they are tanks and not DPS. Just like how healers were forced to not use cleric stance to apply DPS since they want us to just heal.

Edit: Also, you having a GCD on it makes you able to take it off or change them right away. The penalty for cleric stance is a 5 second downtime of being able to take it off, which is very dangerous if you incorrectly use it. I could see something like 10 seconds instead of 5 on the recast tho.

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The problem is they aren't tanks in pvp, they only tank in pve. Shield oath and defiance exist because tanks primary role is to hold agro for the group. In pvp they can't hold agro, in fact they are the last to be killed in pvp. Its usually healers ---> dps then WAR/PLD.

So if they would force them into shield oath/defiance then they would have to change it so they can make players target them by force. Other wise the change would be detrimental to the archetype. Realistically speaking, WAR/PLD have the least defining role in pvp. You need healers for sustain, you need dps to kill stuff. But WAR/PLD only provide thrill of war, mythril tempest, cover and testudo. Due to their long cooldowns their impact is minimum and inconsistent.

In mmorpgs pvp is always the same, healers are the tanks. They are the first targets so they have to be very durable to withstand being trained by dps. So with cleric stance healers were performing three roles at once: tank, dps and healing. Something had to give.

Domira- Tanks should be the ones essential to locking down healers so dps can kill. But how SE has implemented degradation on CC and immunity, this format won't work at all.

To deal with healer tankability, SE should fix their CC/debuff degradation and have better healing debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Interesting how the OP doesn't consider healers to be the "tanks" in pvp.

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thats what i meant by being skilled if we use cleric stance or its deadly. Our tanking abilities (apart from the occasional attunement) are nothing except for our heals (on ourselves), and the extensive running. Basically, a healer is a tank with very low defence and no defensive cooldowns.
If a healer uses cleric stance while being focused by large numbers, it means death as he cannot heal himself.

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Originally Posted by AstralKaos

And that is exactly why the OP's black and white view and "remedy" to this non-problem shouldn't be taken seriously, or even considered.

They removed CS from WHM/SCH because it was broken and undeniably game breaking. Something that a PLD/WAR in Sword Oath is far from being.

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I'll just quote myself on that: "As i think all these ideas are terrible, if the decision is to keep the "cleric stance ban", then they would be fair. But just removing that ban would be easier, cheaper, and fair."

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Originally Posted by Domira

So with cleric stance healers were performing three roles at once: tank, dps and healing.

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And that is where you are mistaken. When in cleric stance, a healer loses all his healing power, and since his tanking power is directly linked to his healing, he loses it also. He becomes a dps and only a dps, a dps with "White Mage" or "Scholar" over his head that will make him target number one for the opposing team. Therefore he will be a vulnerable person, taking lots of damage. Thats why, while cleric stance was available, people rarely used it, and if they did they used it for a very short period. Also, about that holy spam problem, Bards do not give mana in pvp (they just don't feel like it, except for some special exceptions, or premade groups.) white mages have 2 different mana regenerating options, with very long cool downs. Holy is very expensive (over 500mp), a healer who abuses of it will have dealt damage, but will be utterly useless after that.

No I'm not mistaken, I meant what I said. And what I said makes sense. They were tank, healer and dps. It doesn't matter if cleric stance nerfed their healing power slightly. Why? Because it only really matters in pve. There are no classes/jobs who hit like raid bosses or dungeon mobs. So even in cleric stance they could heal through the tiny amounts of damage players do in comparison. Yes yes, if you add more players it became more difficult. But then you would see more healers stacked in one group to make up for it.

Not even the strongest dps class would be able to effectively kill a healer with cleric stance, they have no sustain to do so. And like Khonrath mentioned (which is ultra important btw) cc is nerfed because of duration, immunities further make it difficult and healing debuffs are weak. This makes locking down a healer very difficult and next to impossible.

The game isn't like guild wars 2, each class is not suppose to be self sustaining. With cleric stance healers became just that, while that type of design can fit in gw2. It does not fit well in ffxiv since no other class is built like that

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Originally Posted by Domira

Not even the strongest dps class would be able to effectively kill a healer with cleric stance

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It seems like you have never played healer in pvp before, would it be wolves den or front lines, or even in pve for that matter if you would even consider healing yourself with cleric stance up.when a DRG double crits you with a combined damage of 2.9k instantly (GCD and offGCD attacks), reminder that without the vitality buff from having a tank in your party and without any vitality whatsoever (accessories or attributes), you have 3670hp, 2.9k is a lot.

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Originally Posted by Domira

they have no sustain to do so.

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You don't want sustain damage in pvp, you want BIG bursts and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Stylelink

I

You don't want sustain damage in pvp, you want BIG bursts and thats it.

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I'm not talking about sustain damage, I'm talking about longevity. In other words the ability to keep yourself alive through health replenishing.

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Originally Posted by Domira

The problem is they aren't tanks in pvp, they only tank in pve...

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This is a good point. They also have insane damage reduction cooldowns which is why noone would focus them.

Also, focusing healers down is doing it wrong. You are better off CCing healers and burning the DPS down to relieve pressure off your own healers if they are getting ganked. DPS go down a lot easier.

Anyway, back to tanks, the tanks are too powerful with having cooldowns to make them survive better, while putting out insane damage and stuns. I say this for paladins. I have a paladin friend that I run with and his damage comes out on the top over 100k easily in a normal duration match (12 minutes or so). Having the ability to freely run in knowing you won't get picked off makes them very powerful and paladins mass amount of stuns make them extremely powerful. They also have the longest stun in the game. So yeah, I don't see why they shouldn't be forced into tank stance. Most of the paladins you probably see are ones that just spam rage of halone on a healer. I have encountered paladins attacking me like this more often than not sadly.