So, how is Pagos?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Once the NM train is back, gameplay will be gone and Pagos will be boring. Yes, people take the easier route, but they will never enjoy it. Why make Pagos not enjoyable for anyone, just so it is 'tolerable' for some? Wouldn't it make more sense to have varied content for different types of players rather than limiting what people can do? If something is only tolerable, why even play it? It's not like anyone really needs the relic. You say I am being selfish but much of the instances in game are not even geared towards someone like me. Do I oppose it? No. You are not asking to change it a little or even moderately for quality of life purposes. You want the zerg train, in order to get it over with. You are not looking to enjoy it. If you don't like Pagos that much, don't do it. If there aren't enough people like me, SE will take the hint.

I've done others relics, but that really shouldn't matter. You guys need to stop with the hostility. I said it earlier that is why you will not see people disagreeing all that much.

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I enjoyed Anemos. Sweeping generalizations built on lies are a poor way to argue anything.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly the other way of running old content, lower lvl content to help new players get through dungeon queues was a way better relic design than mindlessly killing the same mobs over and over again.

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Especially when higher levels can't even help the lowbies.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

my point is that content aimed for the greater playerbase shouldn't only satisfy the tiniest sliver of it.

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Hasn't this been all of SB's additional content? PvP arena, PvP Moba, Ultimate Trials, HoH with ridiculous level saving and time to complete.... and of course Eureka, the FF11 grind simulator

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Hasn't this been all of SB's additional content? PvP arena, PvP Moba, Ultimate Trials, HoH with ridiculous level saving and time to complete.... and of course Eureka, the FF11 grind simulator

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Debatable. Some of that (PVP, ultimate) is designed for a specific set of people and not the entire playerbase, the same way new recipes, new glamours, new beast tribes are introduced for niche groups - and it doesn't bother me when content is added for specific groups, as it does some people. That's why I'm not saying even Eureka needs to be removed. I'm saying it shouldn't be tied to the relic. As for HoH, most people I know actively enjoy it. I haven't had a single person in game tell me they like Pagos.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

It's a relic. It's shouldn't be just handed over.

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And the previous weapons weren't. You worked for them. But you had a variety of ways you could put in that work. It kept things fun and flexible and eased the tedium of the grind.

That's the thing these developers don't understand about implementing these EQ era concepts. You need ways to ease the tedium of the grind. We had plenty of time to joke around and socialize and be silly in our groups while waiting for the puller to get back when I played EQ. We bickered or debated in zone chat. We played /gems while medding. All those things eased the tedium of the grind. I hated Anemos with a passion, but at least the shout chat was fun.

This set up does nothing to ease the grind and develop a welcoming community. The social aggro and mob placement in the environment is too hazardous to be the hero and rescue someone with a raise. You can't dare pause for a second in groups because the chain falls off way too fast. And while there was a problem in Anemos with not waiting on NM pulls, it's multiplied by 1000 in Pagos.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

Debatable. Some of that (PVP, ultimate) is designed for a specific set of people and not the entire playerbase, the same way new recipes, new glamours, new beast tribes are introduced for niche groups - and it doesn't bother me when content is added for specific groups, as it does some people. That's why I'm not saying even Eureka needs to be removed. I'm saying it shouldn't be tied to the relic. As for HoH, most people I know actively enjoy it. I haven't had a single person in game tell me they like Pagos.

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I just find they are overdoing the catering to niche segments of the player-base while ignoring a solid foundation in the game.

I am done with Pagos til it is totally revamped. Except for the WEEKLY Challenge Log it exp and leveling is 10X slower then the Dunes ever were. Chain parties are virtually worthless considering the amount exp gained vs the amount needed for the next level. Doing Fates are ok except for the fact that they are few and far between. That is if you can get a party to do them. Everytime i have shouted for an NM party I get get shanghaied into a log or Chain party with little or no gain. Then these people don't understand when I get upset at them for leaving them. Movement within the zone is next to impossible solo. I cannot even complete the lvl 25 quest because of its placement and no party is willing to take the time to escort people to these place. I know people are going to consider these points as nitpicking and whining on my part. I don't care. They are enough to make Pagos a complete turn off for me, especially when IK can get equal gear elsewhere. SE if you are interested in making this a viable content fix it.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

Especially when higher levels can't even help the lowbies.

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It's probably the biggest design flaw of Eureka. In Anemos it was solved by accident with the train. New players coming in will have a hard time finding a bunch of other low level players to grind with, so they have to ride the train for EXP. In Pagos there's no train so at this point you almost have to go back to Anemos at least for a few levels. The gaps are only going to get wider as time goes on, so Pagos is just going to get worse and worse.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Anemos was way too fast.

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Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?

The last step of the previous relic was running hard mode primals. The one before that was a light grind. What was the most efficient method of grinding light? Determining if A1S was on bonus, getting a party together and then proceeding to run it as many times as possible within that two-hour window. A1S had Faust (striking dummy) and The Oppressor. Because of the disparity in ilvls, the only mechanics Oppressor had were a line AoE and puddles that remained on the field. Practicing a rotation over and over, boring content, no chance to take a break without slowing progress. Sound familiar? This step only took about 7 hours, though.

Before the light step was cluster acquisition with a daily and weekly quest for clusters, eliminating any need to grind for tomes unless you wanted the weapon immediately.

However, before the cluster step was the umbrite/crystal sand step. This required a maximum of 24,000 tomes for umbrite, with no alternative to get the umbrite. What was the efficient method for farming umbrite? Aetherochemical Research Facility until the sight of it made you sick. Each run took around 20 minutes. This step involved a lengthy grind, but it was released In June 2016 - over two years ago.

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Originally Posted by Conando

I feel you’ve yet to adequately explain why mashing out a rotation on trash for hours is enjoyable.

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The relic requires a grind, but it can't include any difficult (requiring skill, not time) content or it would lock out players. That severely limits options. Which part of 800 Alex runs or waiting on FATEs to spawn for beast tribes or doing FATEs (the majority of which are grinding mobs) over and over for crystals or farming the same dungeons for tomes, light or item drops was enjoyable? Any answer is going to include the ability to do other things while grinding and not the content itself.

Chaining/killing mobs in Pagos is braindead content. Chaining/killing mobs in Anemos (fuel for the train) was and is braindead content. Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

Same dance, different year:
you guys went overboard with this new relic

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Originally Posted by Orchidias

Agreed, I was looking forward to doing this but when I saw the last step, it was enough to tempt me into unsubbing. Just, no. Not enough content to actually give a care about, and this sort of struggle for something that will be outdated soon enough? I haven't even cleared Thordan EX because no one can get past tethered knights and I'd rather be doing that than this.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

instead to give us grind, can't they work on true content that are really interesting outside raid for the endgame?

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Originally Posted by Doctor-

You people white knighting it realize by the time you are done it is next patch cycle first relic to do this, and its not even something to do its cramming mindless grind that serves no purpose but over glorified glamour at this point

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Originally Posted by Demise

"We don't really care about the game anymore, as seen in previous patches, and we have no intentions to make new things for you to play with that are fun or exciting, so just shut up and grind."

And then everyone did, and told people who thought maybe the devs should put a liiiitle more effort into this to go do something else or quit instead. And then they sat in their queues wondering why they were so long and why there wasn't anyone left playing the game with them.

Grind is one thing. Making it soul crushingly boring and rehashing old content that's already expired is not the way to keep people interested and motivated. I also like having a goal to work towards, but at a certain point it's not just 'well this is boring but at least some parts of it are fun' and more 'why should I keep shoving broken glass under my finger nails when I could stare at a wall or watch paint dry instead.'

Basically, I was ready to put my guns on and get myself dat crit scholar book until I saw that last step. I am perfectly fine with grinding out fates and fighting drop rates and the RNG god. But the last step is just SE torturing us because they can.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

I don't know how anybody can defend these methods when SE could easily give us ways that are at least some what entertaining. Nobody is asking for things to be handed to them.

We just want them to stop catering to the lowest common denomjnator.

It's a RELIC WEAPON. It should be obtained by completing feats of strength. Slaying epic monsters. Completing an epic quest. Exploring me elands.

Not killing endless a mounts of low level trash

THIS IS WHY WE PLAY RPG GAMES

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

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That's not the only difference between the two though. The other differences have been discussed at length in this very thread.