AOE Toggle Needs to GO

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I still don't see the 'holes' in my logic. You didn't even reply to the fact that you don't have to worry about mp consumption unless it's a NM.
The only thing ya'll called me out on was saying I'd still choose the AoE over the single target.

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I guess I don't understand your reasoning on why you think the Area Effect toggle functionality should be removed.

From reading your posts:

• I understand why you think spells cast with an area effect should cost more MP than when they are single target.
• I understand why you think spells cast with an area effect should generate more Enmity than when they are single target.
• I do not understand why you think removal of the Area Effect toggle function would directly correct the previous two issues.

I guess I need you to walk me through how removing the Area Effect toggle is better than simply just increasing the MP costs and Enmity generated when casting spells in AoE mode.

I don't know, from what I've seen, it worked in XI. I don't see why it wouldn't work in XIV

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I don't know, from what I've seen, it worked in XI. I don't see why it wouldn't work in XIV

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Are you saying that having separate AoE spells worked in XI?

In XI we weren't limited by an action bar and AP.

Also, AoE was balanced in Hate/MP Cost in XI, which it isn't here. That's why AoE spells were used cautiously then.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I still don't see the 'holes' in my logic. You didn't even reply to the fact that you don't have to worry about mp consumption unless it's a NM.
The only thing ya'll called me out on was saying I'd still choose the AoE over the single target.

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I have. I've said that at least 4 times in this thread already so I'll say it again:

Adjusting the MP cost, hate generated and potency of a spell based on AoE or single-target can be done with AoE toggle. Removing it does not directly address these issues in any way. The purpose of this thread was strictly the removal of AoE toggle, not about adding proper MP cost/hate/potency mechanics to it.

Does it need to be bigger or something? I can totally do that if it needs to be for people to actually read it.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I have. I've said that at least 4 times in this thread already so I'll say it again:

Adjusting the MP cost, hate generated and potency of a spell based on AoE or single-target can be done with AoE toggle. Removing it does not directly address these issues in any way. The purpose of this thread was strictly the removal of AoE toggle, not about adding proper MP cost/hate/potency mechanics to it.

Does it need to be bigger or something? I can totally do that if it needs to be for people to actually read it.

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I think if you look at my last 20 posts, pretty much all of them mirror your post right here.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Then this is how cure would work? I don't see what you're getting at.

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What I'm saying is, what if SE does a complete rewrite of the spellbook and there is no exact single/AoE counterpart? Meaning, what if SE decides to get away from the simple Cure/Curaga? Then the toggle would no longer make sense.

Let me try to illustrate my point using a spellbook from a healing class in another MMO. Look at the below spell list and take into account MP cost, casting time, cooldown (if applicable) and description. Tell me if you see any two that are direct counterparts to each other:

Heal
9% of base mana
3 sec cast
Heals a single target for 3136 to 3644.

Flash Heal
28% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
Heals a single target for 6272 to 7288.

Greater Heal
27% of base mana
3 sec cast
A slow casting spell that heals a single target for 8362 to 9716.

Prayer of Healing
26% of base mana
2.5 sec cast
A powerful prayer heals the friendly target's party members within 30 yards for 3087 to 3261.

Circle of Healing
21% of base mana
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 30 yards of the target for 2309 to 2551. Prioritizes healing the most injured party members.

Binding Heal
28% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target and the caster for 4753 to 6109. Low threat.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

What I'm saying is, what if SE does a complete rewrite of the spellbook and there is no exact single/AoE counterpart? Meaning, what if SE decides to get away from the simple Cure/Curaga? Then the toggle would no longer make sense.

Let me try to illustrate my point using a spellbook from a healing class in another MMO. Look at the below spell list and take into account MP cost, casting time, cooldown (if applicable) and description. Tell me if you see any two that are direct counterparts to each other:

Heal
9% of base mana
3 sec cast
Heals a single target for 3136 to 3644.

Flash Heal
28% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
Heals a single target for 6272 to 7288.

Greater Heal
27% of base mana
3 sec cast
A slow casting spell that heals a single target for 8362 to 9716.

Prayer of Healing
26% of base mana
2.5 sec cast
A powerful prayer heals the friendly target's party members within 30 yards for 3087 to 3261.

Circle of Healing
21% of base mana
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 30 yards of the target for 2309 to 2551. Prioritizes healing the most injured party members.

Binding Heal
28% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target and the caster for 4753 to 6109. Low threat.

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I see, this looks like a potential solution for lack of AoE toggle, but still falls into the area of 5 spells that all essentially do the same thing. These all heal, but are balanced differently for specific situations (I'm assuming). Unless they're completely reworking the action bar and class system, I really don't feel like this kind of spell book works with XIV (at least not with the weapon classes. Maybe for White Mage?). Either way, it still complicates what is a more streamlined system (Toggle), and as far as I'm concerned is not a good case for removing toggle all together. We're still talking about balance here, not the pros/cons of the toggle itself.

Thank you for clarifying, though.

I've never had an accidental AoE cast. The only accidents I've had are with targeting, but no targeting issues lately.

Edit: I've played as a Priest on that MMO and Heal and Greater Heal, and Flash Heal and Binding Heal are counterparts to each other. Prayer of Healing and Circle of healing are counter parts to each other as well. Just because they don't do the exact same thing doesn't mean they aren't related. Cure/Cure II/Cure III all have different MP costs, healing done, and casting times, but obviously they are related. Different name =/= different spell-type.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Edit: I've played as a Priest on that MMO and Heal and Greater Heal, and Flash Heal and Binding Heal are counterparts to each other. Prayer of Healing and Circle of healing are counter parts to each other as well.

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Yup, you recognized the game. I knew it wouldn't take long. ;)

I think you've got it backwards, though? What I'm saying is, where is the AoE counterpart to Heal (Greater Heal is also single target)? Where is the single-target counterpart to CoH? There would be no clearcut way to split them down the middle if SE went with more complex choices like this.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

These all heal, but are balanced differently for specific situations (I'm assuming).

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Yes. With a setup like this, you need to make decisions based on your needs:

-Heal - Your go-to bread and butter spell. Moderate cast time and MP cost.
-Flash Heal - Your OMG-the-tank's-gonna-die panic spell. Quick to cast, but high MP cost, not meant to be spammed.
-Greater Heal - Use when your tank takes huge burst damage, but has enough health to survive the long cast timer.
-Prayer of Healing - AoE healing spell (and probably the closest counterpart to Greater Heal)
-Circle of Healing - Instant-cast AoE healing spell, doesn't heal for as much as PoH, but good in a pinch.
-Binding Heal - Usually used when you need to top yourself off and the tank can use a heal, or in a threat-sensitive situation (low-threat heal).

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Unless they're completely reworking the action bar and class system, I really don't feel like this kind of spell book works with XIV (at least not with the weapon classes. Maybe for White Mage?).

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I agree that this isn't a traditional FF setup. I really used it more for example to illustrate that whatever changes they're making may be something that completely negates the toggle being appropriate. Who knows what SE has in mind right now?

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Thank you for clarifying, though.

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You're welcome. Even though I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree in the end, I appreciate that you've kept the debate civil.

Flash of Heal; Binding Heal -- Heal; Prayer of Healing -- Renew;Circle of Healings counterpart in that aspect. Greater Heal; Divine Hymn