Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Veloran

She had enough power to fight WoL and the Scions in a pointless suicide trial. She had a giant crystal of aether, half of which wasn't even used for her plan. She resides in a literal sea of nigh-infinite aether. There is zero reason why she couldn't have contacted WoL or anyone else at any point throughout the story.

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A fight which burned through her soul. All of the other aether was intended to ensure humanity could get to Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

A lot of the Watcher's dialog implies or outright states that he was practically biased by design. Such as when he says that as a creation of Hydaelyn, he believed by default that the age of the Ancients would be forgotten.

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Which he follows by contradicting, I think it’s a bit complicated his motivations.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Or how his memories surrounding the Final Days and the Sundering were intentionally "cut away" so that modern people would be unable to look back on those events and reach any conclusions about them. Even when he talks about his final living memories, what he says about being sad she'd stand apart from her people and swearing to share her vigil backs up the idea from Anamnesis that suggests her summoners didn't know they were about to die.

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Let’s play this out as if we were a member of Venats faction.

You join Venat and learn of the situation that threatens the star and the problem of Dynamis. You learn that humanity will have to deal with mortality and suffering in order to survive. You don’t think this applies to you for some reason.

Time passes. You agree that Zodiark and the Convocation will not solve the issue and concur with Venat that you must summon forth a being of light that will forever imprison Him, only with wayyyyy less people. You know summoning required using the souls of Ancients to power it, but you don’t think that it’s odd you’re able to create a deity strong enough to imprison him that uses exponential less aether. You’re sure it’ll work itself out.

You undergo the ritual, Venat agreeing to be the heart much like Elidibus, and suddenly, oh no, your life force is slipping away! Who could’ve seen this coming!

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I wouldn't say that the Watcher supporting people reaching their own conclusions is evidence that he isn't biased or that his opinion shouldn't be questioned, because both he and Venat were intentionally keeping watch over humanity to see how they developed, what sort of people they evolved into, and what conclusions they reached. Like Flow Together says, she was "weighing your every choice". That's not to say his opinion is without merit or anything, but when the one memory left to him is one of pure love for Venat and devotion to her cause and all the rest were stripped away in order to ensure the truth would be hidden for all time, we have to at least take it with a grain of salt.

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You can certainly take his statements with a grain of salt, but I think the fact that the one memory left was his vow should show that it’s not really the circumstances of his creation that makes him biased, but the person he was based on. And I think we should consider that perspective as much as we do any of the other Ancients who were also biased.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Likewise, Emet's saving the WoL from the rift in SoS within the context of EW has now turned into perpetuating the time loop (having regained his memories upon death) than the initial belief it was a kindness to Elidibus. (Instead, by doing this he seemingly dooms Elidibus to 'turbo death'.)

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Not necessarily. From that moment as described in Tales from the Shadows, he describes himself "on brink of death" and from what I remember of discussions when the story first came out, other languages were more clear that it was a "last act before completely dissipating" sort of deal.

So it seems quite likely this is before he has his memories restored, and even if it comes afterwards, that doesn't mean he specifically knows that Elidibus's soul will be destroyed as a consequence – or perhaps he does, and (I speculate) it's a fate any heart of a primal is doomed to from the moment of their transformation. Perhaps we simply never went into that level of detail when we described future events to him.

Ultimately it is Elidibus's own choice to burn through his aether to open the portal to the past. There is nothing directly pressuring him to do so except his own sense of duty, and perhaps that slow dissolution is his only alternative at that point.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

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The issue you refuse to see is that nobody has ever claimed that the call to like and favor Venat is truly in your face about it. No, in actuality it's rather subtle. It's in the framing, the way she is consistently framed as an all-loving mother goddess and a hero. The way she can do nothing wrong, and every character not even limited to the Scions have nothing but praise for her. The few times you [I]CAN[I] criticize her it's either outright ignored and insignificant (the boat scene) or immediately countermanded by Y'shtola (she lied to me?! Oh, that doesn't matter! We owe her for all the good she's done! & There was no justice in what I've done. Yes, yes. But have you heard my profound and not at all pre-school level theory about how all this time she was preparing us to fight Dynamis of Despair and not about to shepherd us all to our deaths via the Meteion Moon Express?!). That's the issue, Square knows full well if they took a sledgehammer to the face approach to her genocide of the Ancients, it's resolution and her reasoning it would not have come off near as well. Nor would it be so easy and simplistic for forum goers to defend it, so they took the in the background, subtle approach to the dilemma.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

snip mk. II

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This point isn't as profound as you'd perhaps like to think it is, and has in fact been regurgitated quite a bit by the resident lore experts and other persons of interest. Personally, I'd say liking the Garlemald Empire for any reason is perfectly okay seeing as how they're fictional and all. Labeling and making assumptions as to one's real life proclivities is a serious issue in video gaming and beyond right now, and frankly it REALLY needs to go. There are many, many labels I could apply to many on these forums but seeing as how I'm not an obtuse ass obviously I refrain. It's called common courtesy and respect, and it isn't new. Even if you were correct, you really think the likes of Lauront or Theodric possess the ability to make the Garlemald Empire, faithfully recreated!!! in real life? How absurd, it highlights perfectly why this is a useless problem that accomplishes nothing.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

snip AGAIN

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Once again, I don't think it's particularly advisable to be even considering the idea someone is one such thing or other based on their likes on a game. For all you know the person on the other side of the screen is posting random bullshit to rile you up and actually likes flowers, bright castles, and faeries. People aren't so one-dimensional. Usually.

couldn't fit, so double post hehe~

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

snippy snip

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Aveyond pretty much hits the nail on the head here. Mods are watching this, unlike the lazy and non-existent mods elsewhere so those who might otherwise be upfront and in your face about their views on the story, they become passive-aggressive instead so as to minimize the risk of being hit by a forum infraction for "being rude and antagonistic" or some such. They want to retain their privilege to post so they have to find "clever" ways to devalue your opinion that goes beyond simple disagreement.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Are you talking about the slower Aether collection bit? That was probably due to the prepping of the first and the source for a light aspected calamity?

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I'm not sure what you mean, I wasn't referring to events surrounding the First.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

It was explained in ShB that neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn required massive aether consumption under normal conditions because of the abundance of aether in the Ancients sacrificed to summon them. Modern primals require obscene amounts of aether because they are comparatively Aether-starved.

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Meaning, she should clearly have more than enough aether for a phone call.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

A fight which burned through her soul. All of the other aether was intended to ensure humanity could get to Ultima Thule.

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Yes, a trial she didn't even need to undertake. But again, that other aether was hardly "intended to ensure" anything, given it just coalesced through coincidence. And once more, she exists in a nigh-infinite realm of pure aether. There is no reason for her to have wanted for energy to contact WoL.

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Who could’ve seen this coming!

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Based on what he says there and what the group says in the recording... Not them, apparently.

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but I think the fact that the one memory left was his vow should show that it’s not really the circumstances of his creation that makes him biased, but the person he was based on.

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To a degree. But the fact that he had other memories stripped from him does very much have to do with the circumstances of his creation.

You know they never retconned the fact that the crystals of light were her power being given to past warriors of light to stop the previous rejoinings. Also that when comparing the Crystal Eye of Matoya to our crystals of light in the current age they're stronger (they meaning the past crystals of light ala noted by Krile)... also giving them out to the other shards to... hmmm

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You know they never retconned the fact that the crystals of light were her power being given to past warriors of light to stop the previous rejoinings. Also that when comparing the Crystal Eye of Matoya to our crystals of light in the current age they're stronger (they meaning the past crystals of light ala noted by Krile)... also giving them out to the other shards to... hmmm

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Yeah that is a really odd oversight, but then that seems to be part of the old lore and they don't seem to care about any plot points that don't fit into the arc they went with

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Yeah that is a really odd oversight, but then that seems to be part of the old lore and they don't seem to care about any plot points that don't fit into the arc they went with

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Or they didn't retconn it because it's still established lore and fits in quite nicely with the fact that it's part of the cause of her burning through the aether and other souls that summoned her into being as was stated to happen by the devs themselves. Considering especially that as the ages left the crystals got weaker in power.

1% 1000 vrs 1% of 100 is a big difference (as just an example)

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yes, a trial she didn't even need to undertake. But again, that other aether was hardly "intended to ensure" anything, given it just coalesced through coincidence. And once more, she exists in a nigh-infinite realm of pure aether. There is no reason for her to have wanted for energy to contact WoL.

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A test to see if they could survive against a true deity is needed when sending a group on the one shot to save all of existence.

Yes, she used the Aether that naturally coalesced due to her being the will of the star. There’s no evidence it was just coincidence that she happened to be in the exact location she needed to be in order for that to form. And diverting the Aetherial sea to reach the surface is both difficult in execution and an unknown in terms of consequences. The sea is a combination of souls and aether that is needed to maintain the star, and I think it more than reasonable to presume that there is a cost.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Based on what he says there and what the group says in the recording... Not them, apparently.

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Really? Because I saw scenes where Venat and followers lamented the fact that Zodiark did not solve the problem despite all evidence to the contrary, and then agreed to be sacrificed to summon a deity like Zodiark, only with fewer souls. I then watched several scenes where a simulacrum of one of those followers repeatedly expresses joy at the success of Venats plan, sadness at her passing and a belief that his original would be happy to see what became of things. None of which points to them being surprised by what they were doing.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

To a degree. But the fact that he had other memories stripped from him does very much have to do with the circumstances of his creation.

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Right but I agree that the actual impact in his trustworthiness is not what you say.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You know they never retconned the fact that the crystals of light were her power being given to past warriors of light to stop the previous rejoinings. Also that when comparing the Crystal Eye of Matoya to our crystals of light in the current age they're stronger (they meaning the past crystals of light ala noted by Krile)... also giving them out to the other shards to... hmmm

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Why would they?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Why would they?

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Never said they should or would. I find it as a good example of how she was burning through her aether and the souls and fit in with the later narrative and what the devs said nicely ^_^