A serious discussion about abridging the story quest 1-50 (discouraging new players)

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I don't wish to talk to about that game too much, but watch me call people brainwashed about it.

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90 is definitely the same as 100, which is also the same as being handed best in slot raid gear per your earlier post.

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

90 is definitely the same as 100, which is also the same as being handed best in slot raid gear per your earlier post.

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Oh I see now, you completely misunderstood that part of my post. I was saying if people expected to just be able to skip the story, why not also expect to instantly get max level gear as well? I wasn't actually saying that the other MMO instantly gives you max gear. Go back and read it, I don't start talking about "that other MMO" until after that analogy. I know that max gear is gated behind mythic raiding in that game. People are fine with it, but somehow gating things behind a story that makes the entire WORLD make sense is oh so awful.

Going back and reading the post, I can see how you would assume I meant that actually, when I was speaking in general at that part of it. Freedom of choice isn't always the right call in MMOs. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. If they allowed people to get the best gear by just completely skipping raid bosses for example, the gear would mean nothing and raiding would be destroyed. Content would be burned through like nothing. This is another example of freedom of choice not being the right call. Actually, people still have a choice. They go through the story(even if they are mashing the ESC key.) Or they simply don't play. This game doesn't need to have the highest subs to be a good MMO. It doesn't need to cater to everyone. It just needs to put love into its product, and have a strong and loyal fanbase willing to play. Even FFXI, with much less subs, had this, and still survives to this day. Making a good game does not always mean catering to the masses.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Oh I see now, you completely misunderstood that part of my post. I was saying if people expected to just be able to skip the story, why not also expect to instantly get max level gear as well? I wasn't actually saying that the other MMO instantly gives you max gear. Go back and read it, I don't start talking about "that other MMO" until after that analogy. I know that max gear is gated behind mythic raiding in that game. People are fine with it, but somehow gating things behind a story that makes the entire WORLD make sense is oh so awful.
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If they allowed people to get the best gear by just completely skipping raid bosses for example, the gear would mean nothing and raiding would be destroyed.

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So you just can't post without being strawmanning, or you choose not to? I read your post, you chose to imply that people who want to skip the story also expect instant max level gear. There's no way to prove that, you're just throwing insults and allegations at people who may or may not like or have ever played "that other MMO".

Correct me if I'm wrong, cause this is a monster thread and I may have missed a post - I don't recall ever seeing anybody unironically suggesting that people ACTUALLY be given raid gear without raiding, ever, outside of a strawman post made to insult another user/game.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So I'm curious, do you also believe it's unfair that the very best gear is gated behind difficult boss fights? Since some people want the best gear without having to go through that struggle, why don't we just give it to them without forcing them to do anything difficult? After all, this is cutting off their choice, right? Do you also believes the levels to be useless? Perhaps we should all start at level 60 as well? Sounds like you want to turn this into a certain other MMO, which it is not.

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What I believe is people skipping the msq isn't going to impact my gameplay. They already do it. Look at the sheer number of 60's in the first few days. The majority of those players were mashing the esc key.
Keeping gear, dungeons, and raids gated behind the msq is fine, Having and overtly long msq filled with filler and fetch quests gating content isn't.

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

So you just can't post without being strawmanning, or you choose not to? I read your post, you chose to imply that people who want to skip the story also expect instant max level gear. There's no way to prove that, you're just throwing insults and allegations at people who may or may not like or have ever played "that other MMO".

Correct me if I'm wrong, cause this is a monster thread and I may have missed a post - I don't recall ever seeing anybody unironically suggesting that people ACTUALLY be given raid gear without raiding, ever, outside of a strawman post made to insult another user/game.

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No, you misunderstood the point of all of my posts

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

It's sad to see how brainwashed people have become from a certain other MMO. It has taught them to believe gating things behind raids or meaningless rep grinds or token grinds is ok, but apparently gating things behind a meaningful story that actually makes sense IN THE GAME WORLD is not ok. Gotta love it. If any MMO deviates from this formula, they are wrong and how dare they force people to do this content. And you all wonder why there have been no MMOs with any innovation since the juggernaut of MMOs came out 10 years ago? You guys are why. You clamor for it but you can't even take the slightest change to the formula without whining.

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This is what I said in a previous post. I acknowledge that people think gating content behind raids or rep/token grinds is fine, but gating things behind the MSQ isn't. That's what baffles me. The MSQ gives meaning to the world you are playing in, and yeah, it's time consuming, but it's relatively easy in difficulty to complete to say, a raid. Why is grinding dungeon after dungeon for tomes ok but doing the MSQ one time, each a different quest, not ok? It is because people have been brainwashed by the other MMO's formula into deciding what is ok to gate and not ok to gate. Because the other MMO still gate things behind rep/token grinds and raids, you guys have no problem with it in this game. Because that other MMO doesn't gate content behind their MSQ, you're not ok with it in this game. That is my point.

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

What I believe is people skipping the msq isn't going to impact my gameplay. They already do it. Look at the sheer number of 60's in the first few days. The majority of those players were mashing the esc key.
Keeping gear, dungeons, and raids gated behind the msq is fine, Having and overtly long msq filled with filler and fetch quests gating content isn't.

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I have already acknowledged that I too would be down for doing away with the filler and fetch quests that are embedded in the MSQ. I do not, however, support making the entire MSQ(including the relevant quests that actually explain things) optional.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I don't wish to talk to about that game too much, but it really is the reason that people are expecting this, so it's unavoidable to speak of it.

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Actually it isn't. This is pretty much the only current mmo that does this.

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

Actually it isn't. This is pretty much the only current mmo that does this.

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And why would any other MMOs deviate from it? People have shown that they wish to have the same formula from that other MMO shoved down their throats time and time again. Any MMO which deviates from the formula set by it will have a situation like this occur. The gating in this game's MSQ pales in comparison to how FFXI gated their MSQ in CoP. In that game the MSQ was very challenging, and without completing it you could not access the endgame area. It was FFXI's most successful expansion. Not to mention FFXIV has a very valid in game reason for gating you, and if they just let anyone bypass it, it would destroy the entire lore of the world.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

No, you misunderstood the point of all of my posts

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Falling back to the "You didn't understand/You didn't read", which is this forum's favorite conversation dismissal phrase?

I understood your post, you just said something completely ridiculous in it. The MSQ gives meaning to the world if you *let* it. I've skipped every single cutscene from 2.1 forward to the end of Heavensward. The MSQ gave me Experience points and gear, nothing else.

Grinding dungeons for gear is okay, because that's been the standard for games for approximately forever in RPGs.

Is it possible, *JUST POSSIBLE*, that having a different opinion than you DOESN'T mean people are brainwashed by "that other game"? Could it be that some people like dungeons, but not quests? What if a person never played "that other game", how would you account for them being brainwashed?

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

Falling back to the "You didn't understand/You didn't read", which is this forum's favorite conversation dismissal phrase?

I understood your post, you just said something completely ridiculous in it. The MSQ gives meaning to the world if you *let* it. I've skipped every single cutscene from 2.1 forward to the end of Heavensward. The MSQ gave me Experience points and gear, nothing else.

Grinding dungeons for gear is okay, because that's been the standard for games for approximately forever in RPGs.

Is it possible, *JUST POSSIBLE*, that having a different opinion than you DOESN'T mean people are brainwashed by "that other game"? Could it be that some people like dungeons, but not quests? What if a person never played "that other game", how would you account for them being brainwashed?

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There you go, you literally just admitted to being brainwashed. As for your last sentence, the influence of that other game stretches over the entire MMO genre itself. They made this model popular, and other MMO creators emulated it. So even if someone hadn't played that juggernaut MMO, they likely played a game based off the same model, or had a conception of what an MMO was supposed to be, all shaped from that game. If you wanna talk standards for just RPGs, gating things behind the story is also a staple of single player RPGs, or at least FF in general. If we're talking MMOs well... see above.

And yes, you did misunderstand. I wasn't saying the same people who want to skip the MSQ also want free best in slot gear. Far from it. They accept they won't get best in slot gear as ok but somehow now that they have to complete a story, that's a travesty.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

There you go, you literally just admitted to being brainwashed. As for your last sentence, the influence of that other game stretches over the entire MMO genre itself. They made this model popular, and other MMO creators emulated it. So even if someone hadn't played WoW, they likely played a game based off the same model, or had a conception of what an MMO was supposed to be, all shaped from that game.

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Get real, seriously. Brainwashed, because I answered your question? Brainwashed, because I gave you the answer other people are going to give you as well? Brainwashed, because I disgree with you on an internet forum about an online video game? Brainwashed, because I gave you an answer with decades of evidence backing it?

I don't think you actually can post without insulting someone or something.