Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

"But why should they go back and add rewards to old content" you might ask, to which I say okay, if it's irrelevant then why should healers have to do it to find this supposed engagement in the game?

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My addendum to this is "Why do healers need to be the ones to have to pursue this level of mechanics when other classes are otherwise engaged"? Because they have a responsability to heal and to the party? Doesn't everyone in the party have a responsability? Sure, healers are the "caretakers", but when our responsability is not a major focus at any given time, why is it that they just press a couple of buttons with barely any interaction with anything? It's throwing rocks, corroding the enemy, using a skill that happens to deal damage while healing people a bit or giving you a resource back every so often. Anything else? Anything with substance? Because Afflatus Misery ain't it, chief.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Imagine if WHM's PVP LB were an actual skill in PVE.

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I honestly like the personal LB's in pvp and have been advocating for a personal Trance style system from FFIX for a while.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Once in SHB I solo healed as a Blu for a party of blu in O11n. Didn't have strotram either so it was one hell of a challenge. It was the only time I had fun healing in the last 3 years. I quit healing in 5.1, did it in 6.0 as sage for the role quest and early savage and that was it.

Unless you are doing blu or pvp healers (again except sch) healing is miserable currently and has been miserable for the last 3 years

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BLU is ridiculously fun to heal as and shows that we really don't need 8 heals to do even some of the harder content. 2-4 is fine.

Never let em forget.
*bump*

PvP healers are a heck of a lot better than pve healers. Actual interaction between the kits , though they are still limited. And the personal ultimates are great as well. All of them also can potentially just gets so much battle high.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

It's kinda sad how much more fun Healers are in PvP than in PvE.

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Its really only fun because of the nature of the system of pvp where its design is about killing players rather than scripted AI.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its really only fun because of the nature of the system of pvp where its design is about killing players rather than scripted AI.

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PvP benefits from engagements being short so that you don't notice how monotonous the gameplay would be over the course of a normal boss fight, but I'd also argue that this is mostly down to how few actions you actually have in PvP.

What makes the PvP job design stand out however is that you have actual interactions between abilities in your kit, they're not all just fire & forget "deal X potency, has Y cooldown".

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

My addendum to this is "Why do healers need to be the ones to have to pursue this level of mechanics when other classes are otherwise engaged"? Because they have a responsability to heal and to the party? Doesn't everyone in the party have a responsability? Sure, healers are the "caretakers", but when our responsability is not a major focus at any given time, why is it that they just press a couple of buttons with barely any interaction with anything? It's throwing rocks, corroding the enemy, using a skill that happens to deal damage while healing people a bit or giving you a resource back every so often. Anything else? Anything with substance? Because Afflatus Misery ain't it, chief.

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Well, when P8S is on farm, yea, healing is fairly easy but during prof, I appreciate having a simple rotation. If I had to maintain a BLM style rotation, heal, do mechanics and emergency heals or Rez when people make mistakes my brain will probably go boom. As it was during prog, there were time when I had to fully suspend DPS to make sure we got through some tight checks.

I’ll agree when we have a perfectly tuned team on savage content that it can get mundane, but… most of the time, I’m fairly busy. One way I do spice things up is to allow dps or tanks to get greedy with some mechanics if I can heal through it.

Nothing like a healer flex when you can keep a BLM alive through the tankbusters ;)

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Well, when P8S is on farm, yea, healing is fairly easy but during prof, I appreciate having a simple rotation. If I had to maintain a BLM style rotation, heal, do mechanics and emergency heals or Rez when people make mistakes my brain will probably go boom. As it was during prog, there were time when I had to fully suspend DPS to make sure we got through some tight checks.

I’ll agree when we have a perfectly tuned team on savage content that it can get mundane, but… most of the time, I’m fairly busy. One way I do spice things up is to allow dps or tanks to get greedy with some mechanics if I can heal through it.

Nothing like a healer flex when you can keep a BLM alive through the tankbusters ;)

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I doubt anyone was saying to have a BLM-type rotation. You literally can't even have that much complex a rotation as a healer, considering how unstable your role is. The point of what was said was to have more buttons and more interaction with your kit, not necessarily to have specific comboed actions and having to go overboard on buff windows.

There's a reason Cleric Stance was removed, after all. Healing is still our main job, regardless of whether we contribute to damage or not. That was never once put under question.

However, there are still ways of making the job engaging without having to contradict that assumption. Why do I say "Afflatus Misery ain't it"? It's because Afflatus Misery implies you're constantly healing with that one resource. In Savage, you're actively using those skills to heal, I assume. But in content where you're not, the highest burst action you have is locked behind healing. So you need to use a healing action when there's no need for it. Its design is wonky.

Now, if you had a gauge that filled whenever you healed to give you that action without necessarily having to resort to skills that won't even match its final potency? Sure.
If Sage rewarded you with more than just Kardia for dealing damage? Sure.
And if we had more skills that broke the monotony of having a single button to press? Sure!

At no point did I say that healers should not heal. In fact, reading back further you'd see that I point out that much, several times.
But one thing is not being distracted by overly complicated rotations. Another thing entirely is having just the one button to press where you could have other buttons, even if situational ones, that did other things as well.

And this isn't for you directly, more like a comment on how I'm starting to view these interactions overall... but people need to stop taking "We need more of X" as "Delete all that exists and replace everything with X!". That's not it. Things need to be done with proper thought, otherwise we risk repeating the mistakes of the past. Again: there's a reason Cleric Stance went away. Some people found it fun, but practically it was a mess.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Well, when P8S is on farm, yea, healing is fairly easy but during prof, I appreciate having a simple rotation. If I had to maintain a BLM style rotation, heal, do mechanics and emergency heals or Rez when people make mistakes my brain will probably go boom. As it was during prog, there were time when I had to fully suspend DPS to make sure we got through some tight checks.

I’ll agree when we have a perfectly tuned team on savage content that it can get mundane, but… most of the time, I’m fairly busy. One way I do spice things up is to allow dps or tanks to get greedy with some mechanics if I can heal through it.

Nothing like a healer flex when you can keep a BLM alive through the tankbusters ;)

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If you are fairly competent it'll get mundane without a "perfectly tuned team on savage". I've PF'ed a lot and the main difference is that PF doesn't mitigate a lot. Which often just results in getting some value from my oGCDs for once instead having 50% overheal in regens, Star etc., rarely does it mean a GCD heal in addition to oGCDs.
Even during prog, you're not progging the entire fight. Only the last mechanic you're currently stuck at. The earlier mechanics and when aoes happen are already known and predictable.
If you're not at that point yet, honestly... good for you, enjoy feeling busy, engaged and challenged while you can. It probably won't last forever.

P5s was generally nice for incoming damage and is decently fast-paced with it. P6s was an absolute joke. You sometimes had over 1min gaps between damage and I hate that fight with a passion because it bored me to tears. P7s was largely not much to do either until Purgation and Harvests. P8s part 1 is mainly Hippo 1 that hurts and Fourfold. Part 2 is the only fight this tier where you really have something to heal.

Nobody says we should all get a BLM rotation.
But more than 1 dot, 1 filler and 1-2 flavour buttons is long overdue when you regularly have 30s+ gaps between damage happening.

Even something as simple as "crit with Glare procs Glarion(?), an instant, stronger nuke" would be nice to break the monotony, and who doesn't like shiny button procs. (yes, it is essentially a Fire III rip off lol)

Actually, just give WHM their own version of BLM's Thundercloud and Firestarter and that'll go a long way.

I liked having Miasma 2. I liked having Aero 3.

...ok, no one gave two Loporrits about Stella, but it's the thought that counts uwu

But healers can totally have more buttons to press without it diving into a glorified DPS mode. Heck, if you want, you can just make those buttons gimmicks, like procs as Allegor said.

I don't think these buttons that aren't meant to turn your gameplay into a full rotation would hamper your performance on prog. You don't have to think about them any more than you already do for Dia, Afflatus Misery, Assize...

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I liked having Miasma 2. I liked having Aero 3.

...ok, no one gave two Loporrits about Stella, but it's the thought that counts uwu

But healers can totally have more buttons to press without it diving into a glorified DPS mode. Heck, if you want, you can just make those buttons gimmicks, like procs as Allegor said.

I don't think these buttons that aren't meant to turn your gameplay into a full rotation would hamper your performance on prog. You don't have to think about them any more than you already do for Dia, Afflatus Misery, Assize...

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Healers totally can have more offensive buttons without diving into DPS mode... However after doing Bozja I feel like a majority of players would be a different story. XD

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I doubt anyone was saying to have a BLM-type rotation. You literally can't even have that much complex a rotation as a healer, considering how unstable your role is. The point of what was said was to have more buttons and more interaction with your kit, not necessarily to have specific comboed actions and having to go overboard on buff windows.

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I'm not saying Healers should have something like NIN's opener or anything, nor do I want a boring 1-2-3 combo or think that every healer even needs combo actions, but I don't fully agree with the idea that they cannot have combo actions. Regardless of whether or not you need to stop to heal, there's no reason to assume healing spells would interrupt those combo actions since nowadays there are more spells and weaponskills even on the DPS that explicitly don't interrupt combos than there are that still do. As for burst windows, fights are already designed to almost always create mechanic downtimes for burst windows. Sometimes fights force you to hold burst windows, but every spot where you use them, there's nothing really happening.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I don't think these buttons that aren't meant to turn your gameplay into a full rotation would hamper your performance on prog. You don't have to think about them any more than you already do for Dia, Afflatus Misery, Assize...

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I don't really think that should matter for prog because DPS doesn't really matter until you start hitting enrage anyway. They don't really make mid-fight DPS checks these days. By that time you actually reach enrage, you should have already started cleaning up your resource usage.

Again, I'm not saying healers need to have MCH Hypercharge windows, but my point is I don't think we need to be afraid of some healers having a modest DPS rotation. And I think SGE especially would make a lot of sense having a rotation that feels like a DPS lite where some of the challenge of the job is in trying to maintain that uptime while still being a healer, not unlike how GNB's rotation can sometimes make it challenging to reposition bosses. Having a more technical option for the role, especially when the other healers don't need to reach that level, is not a bad thing and allows those who want that challenge to have a job that caters to that.

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Imo, the XIV craze is nearly over. All the streamers who wanted to get buzz from XIV got their fill. WoW is back to being the most watched mmo, with Lost Ark always somehow being the 2nd......

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Who gives a toss about streamers? Twitch is not an accurate metric of anything. People are playing the game, not watching it.

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XIV is back to doing free logins, and perhaps overestimated their popularity with desolate servers.........

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https://media.tenor.com/KhtaBX-rWXIA...o-laughing.gif

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

People are playing the game, not watching it.

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More like taking a break till 6.4 or 7.0, at least compared to how it was during 6.0 :) Twitch and social media "metrics" are a measure of game popularity to some extent. Events like WoW world first race are quite a big advertisement for the game and are done via streaming. Sadly FF14 progression often is super secretive because addons :D

Stop having the boss just stand there just to cast mechanics. Make boss autos crit again. Make more mechanics in which individual DPS need pampering. Make a return of some tankbusters not having a castbar.

Make healers THINK on their FEET. There's a million ways to make healing more engaging besides cramming a bunch of extra buttons where they don't belong. It's already tedious slamming your keyboard on AST every 2 minutes because your raid buffs happen to line up with a heal check.

I mean, I know dungeons were never a main focus aside from story purposes, but when trash pulls are harder and have a higher chance of wiping than a boss fight, there's kind of a problem....though I feel most people don't care either way /sigh

Random damage to random target like lv59 Gubal dungeon first boss AAs would be nice, as well.

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Sadly FF14 progression often is super secretive because addons

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...........well maybe if they decided to do the run cleanly and not cheat, that would change.

Thats on them..wouldnt you say?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

...........well maybe if they decided to do the run cleanly and not cheat, that would change.

Thats on them..wouldnt you say?

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wrong topic?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

wrong topic?

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Seething about dirty, filthy, cheating raiders is never wrong. It's the perfect response in every topic :p

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Seething about dirty, filthy, cheating raiders is never wrong. It's the perfect response in every topic :p

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Mate, you're a nerd sitting in your bedroom, likely in jammies, in front of a PC.
This ain't NFL, NBA, FIFA or MMA. Not that it matters because people cheat in those too.
Gamers trying to earn legitimate sports clout is a joke that keeps flying over your head.

Do yourself a favour and go full casual mode.
There is in fact something like caring too much.
You actively turn something that supposed to give you light-hearted fuwa fuwa feelings into something angry, grim and depressing.

Some inflammatory posts in here. Goodness. Anyways, I'm all for spellcasters having fun combos. RDM's got them, sorta. They could be better, more fun, and other spellcasters could benefit from having them.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Seething about dirty, filthy, cheating raiders is never wrong. It's the perfect response in every topic :p

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I am surprised that it didn't come with an additional rant about how that's somehow World of Warcraft's fault because it is digital Satan.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Mate, you're a nerd sitting in your bedroom, likely in jammies, in front of a PC.
This ain't NFL, NBA, FIFA or MMA. Not that it matters because people cheat in those too.
Gamers trying to earn legitimate sports clout is a joke that keeps flying over your head.

Do yourself a favour and go full casual mode.
There is in fact something like caring too much.
You actively turn something that supposed to give you light-hearted fuwa fuwa feelings into something angry, grim and depressing.

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You either replied to the wrong person or the sarcasm in Rilifane's post went entirely over your head.

Not to mention that when Ultimate releases, it requires gear that is heavily restricted on a weekly savage and tome lockout. So not only is Yoshi P telling you just to play ultimate for that engaging experience, he is telling you to pick a class to stick to...In a game that has advertised itself as being able to play all jobs on one character.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Not to mention that when Ultimate releases, it requires gear that is heavily restricted on a weekly savage and tome lockout. So not only is Yoshi P telling you just to play ultimate for that engaging experience, he is telling you to pick a class to stick to...In a game that has advertised itself as being able to play all jobs on one character.

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Healers itself are as bland as it gets and in order to feel engaged you have to rely on outside factors like a party being bad or the most difficult content giving you a decent heal check. The game piles up more markers, more telegraphs, more smoke and mirror mechanics, more effects, more everything except actual choices, interactions and a skill ceiling just to keep it flashy and decently confusing so you can feel engaged - but it's not the class doing it, it's an outside factor.
And this is incredibly backwards to me.
A class should first and foremost be as engaging as reasonably possible in their own right - the content or a bad/ good party can add to it but when it's basically all up to a party being terrible, then something is wrong. And other games have proven that a healer can absolutely be engaging without even having something to constantly heal but if your primary function is more important, that's even better. You shouldn't get bored to tears when doing a solo duty. You shouldn't get bored to tears or have to switch to a dps when there isn't much to heal to feel engaged. Not to mention you can't do the latter in duties so sucks to be you once you've chosen the green icon and the party isn't a pure clownfiesta.
The skill ceiling got firmly pancaked against the skill floor, any engagement comes purely from outside factors; every single class in the role is bland, has no meaningful choices to make, has next to no interaction in the toolkit and is forbidden from ever showing any true skill.

Hey how hard is Sophia compared to Sephi?

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Hey how hard is Sophia compared to Sephi?

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To heal?
snore
Though tbh Sophia is just easy in general. Spectacular arena visuals, decent VA and a decent song but she's got no gameplay going for her thats for sure.

Sephi was one of the best extremes for being a healer back in the day. Lots of movement when we didn't have much of it. Mid-high but consistent incoming damage with opportunities in certain parts of the fight for more chip damage from bubbles to heal up.

Nowadays, well sophia is easier than it was since SE made it easier than sephi, and even compared to hw era sophia ex its still easier than then due to healer kits and SE doign unneeded changes. Which is saying something as it was already on the low end of the EX difficulty

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

To heal?
snore
Though tbh Sophia is just easy in general. Spectacular arena visuals, decent VA and a decent song but she's got no gameplay going for her thats for sure.

Sephi was one of the best extremes for being a healer back in the day. Lots of movement when we didn't have much of it. Mid-high but consistent incoming damage with opportunities in certain parts of the fight for more chip damage from bubbles to heal up.

Nowadays, well sophia is easier than it was since SE made it easier than sephi, and even compared to hw era sophia ex its still easier than then due to healer kits and SE doign unneeded changes. Which is saying something as it was already on the low end of the EX difficulty

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Nice then Ill jump on that train :3

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

It's kinda sad how much more fun Healers are in PvP than in PvE.

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Healers just need the same treatment that was done to Tanks to make them more fun. Split Abilities between DPS and Healing Support, WHM should be given Water as an AoE attack spell, Holy Reworked to a High Damage Burst Spell as well and For the love of god Give WHM Aero III back that should NEVER have been taken away, Quake/Flood/Tornado and some abilities and spells should be combined into strait upgrade (cure > Cure 2, Medica > Medica 2, Lillybell should be an upgraded and combined with Asylum for example.

SCH should get fixed proper as well it's far too heal heavy since they moved all the fairy abilities to the main bar, it should get Miasma back and for the sake of consistency get Bio III as well at lvl48 or something. Job needs a serious rework the changes dumped on it in Shadowbringers really messed it up, got memed hard with Endwalker too. Replace Ruin 2 altogether with something else it should be left to SMN now. At the moment SCH is far too heavy on support it literally has 3 DPS buttons and thats it. Every other healer has at least 5. Job needs fixing so it's at least as enjoyable to play as it was back in the old days.

AST cards should be AoE End of story, shouldn't have to individually target a player to use it, Strait Upgrade for Benefic to Benefic 2 and Helios to Aspected Helios.

One thing I'd like is if they would bring back Break for Healers and have it replace Repose as well as be an AoE, Sleep is useless past lvl50 mobs resist it but being able to mass slow mobs during pulls would be very useful at the higher levels.

As for "Pure" Healer and "Shield" healers it should be changed a bit so that AST and WHM are Burst Heal and Damage support while SCH and SGE shields should also reflect damage back at their attackers.

99% of the exciting battle content in this game is now Ultimates and even that is now just a grindfest.

"If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Warrior and Paladin count as healers, right? /s

When patch 2.3 dropped, there was a party that cleared Ramuh EX without a tank, using SMN's Titan-Egi as a pet (for anyone newer to the game, the pets used to have HP bars and could take aggro, and Titan-Egi was a tank pet on SMN). This was patched out literally the next day. They made it impossible for Titan-Egi to survive Ramuh's attacks to counteract this fringe example of a tankless run.

This video has only been out for an hour, so there's no way to know how SE will respond, but at this time, I don't strongly believe there will be any action taken within 24 hours, if any action is taken at all.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

"If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Warrior and Paladin count as healers, right? /s

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Welp, both are totally going to get nerfed in the healing department due to that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

This video has only been out for an hour, so there's no way to know how SE will respond, but at this time, I don't strongly believe there will be any action taken within 24 hours, if any action is taken at all.

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I could foresee them nerfing the healing potency on their actions quickly, since that's a quick number change and may not take much to adjust. Hell, they may not bother checking how it will effect things since they don't exactly want the tanks to focus on healing.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Welp, both are totally going to get nerfed in the healing department due to that.

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Funny enough, while I joked about them, it wasn't only their healing that made this possible. Their comp includes Summoner (Phoenix), Dancer (Curing Waltz), Red Mage (Vercure) and Monk (Mantra). Not to mention Clemency is a damage loss. The far bigger issue is TOP simply lacks enough outgoing party damage. They're not cheesing their way through phases with Bloodwhetting and Clemency but skipping whole mechanics (P1 tank busters/party cleaves, Monitors) due to the sheer amount of free extra they have with a fifth DPS. A third tank also means they can use invulns more. P2 only has two sets of double busters the whole phase while P3 and P4 have none. So they could completely ignore pretty much any tank damage for three whole phases either with invulns or freely being able to kitchen sink everything.

Don't get me wrong. The absurd healing tanks have no (except Dark Knight) is ridiculous. But that isn't the only thing at play here.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role (tank / dps) for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

Engagement shouldn't be either 0% or 100%. It shouldn't be either braindead easy in 95% of content or pull your hair out in the hardest thing the game offers.

The same basic damage rotation from level 4 to level 90 (A 30s dot and a filler spell) is not acceptable gameplay or game design.

Edit:

Yoshi-P's statement is about as tone deaf as the Lead Designer of WoW flat out saying they didn't want players playing a certain DPS spec. (Language warning)

Background: Instead of properly balancing a certain DPS spec, the WoW devs nuked it to the ground so people would play other things.

Sound familiar?

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As a tank I can't wait till the day I'm ready to step into ultimate and see what the challenge really is. First steps first setting on my static and doing ex. Gotta start small

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Funny enough, while I joked about them, it wasn't their healing that made this possible. Their comp includes Summoner (Phoenix), Dancer (Curing Waltz), Red Mage (Vercure) and Monk (Mantra). Not to mention Clemency is a damage loss. The far bigger issue is TOP simply lacks enough outgoing party damage. They're not cheesing their way through phases with Bloodwhetting and Clemency but skipping whole mechanics (P1 tank busters/party cleaves, Monitors) due to the sheer amount of free extra they have with a fifth DPS. A third tank also means they can use invulns more. P2 only has two sets of double busters the whole phase while P3 and P4 have none. So they could completely ignore pretty much any tank damage for three whole phases either with invulns or freely being able to kitchen sink everything.

Don't get me wrong. The absurd healing tanks have no (except Dark Knight) is ridiculous. But that isn't the only thing at play here.

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That explains it a bit. Still, I'm not going to be surprised if we see some nerfs to healing actions over this. SE tends to overcorrect on things...like how they disliked how WARs could cheese multiple mechanics in Asphodelos, so they made it near impossible to cheese anything in Abyssos.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Welp, both are totally going to get nerfed in the healing department due to that.

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The tank healing isn't even the issue here. The video simply shows that TOP, and ultimates in general, are not healing intensive fights but mitigation fights, if it doesn't oneshot you there is an incredibly long period of time to get the party's HP back up.

So when Yoshi told healers to go play ultimate if they want something to heal it sounded rather out of touch.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The tank healing isn't even the issue here. The video simply shows that TOP, and ultimates in general, are not healing intensive fights but mitigation fights, if it doesn't oneshot you there is an incredibly long period of time to get the party's HP back up.

So when Yoshi told healers to go play ultimate if they want something to heal it sounded rather out of touch.

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Perhaps the devs should be forced to play healers for a while, ESPECIALLY Yoshi-P. Nothing wakes one up quite like seeing the problems firsthand.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That explains it a bit. Still, I'm not going to be surprised if we see some nerfs to healing actions over this. SE tends to overcorrect on things...like how they disliked how WARs could cheese multiple mechanics in Asphodelos, so they made it near impossible to cheese anything in Abyssos.

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The most likely candidate for receiving a change, if any, would be making Magic Numbers ignore Cover. According to what Forte said over in the healer forums, the PLDs can cover the RDM and SMN to prevent them from dying and they can mass raise the party after. That's basically what they did to Titan-Egi from the example I gave of 2.3. But again, I don't foresee any changes occurring until either 6.4 launches or just never. Healers are largely treated as the 'middle child' of the game.