Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

And I know what many people here say. "If you wanted something more than healing on a healer, go play a DPS". But those are the people who need to take a hard look at FF14's design. I wouldn't mind a pure healer with virtually no DPS whatsoever... if healing was at all this required.

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And those people need to stop saying that.

Healers exist in this game and need to be able to accomplish the MSQ in a fun and engaging way.

Spamming 11111111111111 from level 4 to level 90 Is.Not.Fun.

So I'm curious about the opinions of the healers in this thread: how have you felt healing this current savage tier? Again this is from a DPS's perspective but it seems like there are way more instances that require healing with busters and most raid-wides applying a heavy bleed, multiple hits of damage occurring during high movement phases, and an emphasis on more spot healing at least during P8s p2 with needing to stay more focus on the players that have the Natural Alignment debuff. I would think that would make healing gameplay more engaging at least during prog and on the road to getting Bis gear but I don't play a healer so I don't know if that is true or not.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And those people need to stop saying that.

Healers exist in this game and need to be able to accomplish the MSQ in a fun and engaging way.

Spamming 11111111111111 from level 4 to level 90 Is.Not.Fun.

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Bind Dosis to three hotbar buttons and you can simulate the combo. Congratulations, you've now graduated to tank gameplay. And discovered that it feels...about the same. I just know people will get this combo and after they've spent 2 hours adjusting their muscle memory they'll again be complaining that healing is too boring.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

So I'm curious about the opinions of the healers in this thread: how have you felt healing this current savage tier? Again this is from a DPS's perspective but it seems like there are way more instances that require healing with busters and most raid-wides applying a heavy bleed, multiple hits of damage occurring during high movement phases, and an emphasis on more spot healing at least during P8s p2 with needing to stay more focus on the players that have the Natural Alignment debuff. I would think that would make healing gameplay more engaging at least during prog and on the road to getting Bis gear but I don't play a healer so I don't know if that is true or not.

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For a time it does but that’s the issue really only for a time. For comparison sake, I would need to use aspected benefic on the NA targets during them first 2 weeks of progging, however as usual gear kicks in. Now I only need to use aspected Helios for healing NA with maybe one or two ogcds on them depending if it’s either a dps or my co healer. Tanks I don’t even need to worry about once I use my aoe heal and then the second half of NA, you’re close enough to the targets that you don’t need to spot heal them anymore.

They need to do something once the gear kicks in cause remember they are designing the healer around the min ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

Bind Dosis to three hotbar buttons and you can simulate the combo. Congratulations, you've now graduated to tank gameplay. And discovered that it feels...about the same. I just know people will get this combo and after they've spent 2 hours adjusting their muscle memory they'll again be complaining that healing is too boring.

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"Healing is so boring that if you upgrade it to tank gameplay, it'd still be boring. Somehow I believe this is an incisive gotcha instead of a scathing commentary on how boring healing is."

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Originally Posted by Foraet

Bind Dosis to three hotbar buttons and you can simulate the combo. Congratulations, you've now graduated to tank gameplay. And discovered that it feels...about the same. I just know people will get this combo and after they've spent 2 hours adjusting their muscle memory they'll again be complaining that healing is too boring.

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You're applying a combo-based system to a job that doesn't rely on combos and isn't instant. Maybe you should reconsider your argument, as there are flaws in it that I feel you don't consider in regards to Tanks and their own gameplay. Considering that Tanks have more emphasis on boss positioning and staying alive with their CD Cycling, it's more engaging than simply pressing 1 button to do everything in terms of damage. Tanks also have branching combos in comparison to keep themselves fresh. Sure, hitting the same buttons over and over can be tiring like muscle memory, but it's not as boring as just press 111111111111 all the frickin' time.

Giving Healers additional buttons to press during healing downtime would keep engagement. That's literally all we're asking for: Don't make Healer healing downtime braindead.

I think y'all just played the game to the point that it's no longer fun for you.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

I think y'all just played the game to the point that it's no longer fun for you.

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I definitely played the game enough to see it be reworked to something that's no longer fun.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I definitely played the game enough to see it be reworked to something that's no longer fun.

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This is totally the sentiment of someone who lives on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

I think y'all just played the game to the point that it's no longer fun for you.

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"There's no possible way 1111111111111111111 is unfun aside from doing it for too long"

Where am I. Is this still Earth? This is Sylphie's healer role, we're all just staring at it in disbelief.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I definitely played the game enough to see it be reworked to something that's no longer fun.

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But there's also that old saying about too much of a good thing... or doing things in moderation. In general, I think some people invest / commit a little too much to this and don't give themselves breaks or become super conservative when it comes to change.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

"There's no possible way 1111111111111111111 is unfun aside from doing it for too long"

Where am I. Is this still Earth? This is Sylphie's healer role, we're all just staring at it in disbelief.

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That's because forum posters are so out of touch with the rest of the playerbase. You've played the game to the point that healing is no longer a challenge. I doubt this is the experience of the average player.

This is why using the simplified 11111111111 argument is so great. They can't admit it's unfun. They can't. The myriad issues with the healing role don't even need to make the discussion floor. All you need to do is say that spamming one spell over and over and over and over and over again for the overwhelming majority of any encounter is among the most tedious video game experiences you've ever had, and you're going to get a wall of "you're just terminally online". "You just play too much". "You should play something else". "Go play a DPS". "Slightly nudging the engagement of healer downtime upward would leave it in a state you'd still complain about".

THIS, right here, is why the 11111111111 argument is my favorite. Because it's a step away from the most boring video game experience you could possibly conceive, and -every single one- of the current healer design white knights claims GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE is "too much of a good thing".

It's amazing. You'd think they'd curl up and burst into flames if they ever typed "why yes, casting one spell a gazillion times in a single encounter seems spammy and boring".

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

But there's also that old saying about too much of a good thing... or doing things in moderation. In general, I think some people invest / commit a little too much to this and don't give themselves breaks or become super conservative when it comes to change.

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This I am aware of given how there's been talk of PLD changes for 6.3 going on still. Same applies for basically any job: What I'd like Foraet to answer is this - Do you enjoy 1111111111111111 the entire time you're playing XIV? Is that the thing you like the most about the job? Because I'd certainly love to hear your side and spark more discussion about it.

We can be ultra-conservative about it, but it's always a good idea to talk about the issues themselves as we have to ask the question for both the casual and high-end playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This is why using the simplified 11111111111 argument is so great. They can't admit it's unfun. They can't. The myriad issues with the healing role don't even need to make the discussion floor. All you need to do is say that spamming one spell over and over and over and over and over again for the overwhelming majority of any encounter is among the most tedious video game experiences you've ever had, and you're going to get a wall of "you're just terminally online". "You just play too much". "You should play something else". "Go play a DPS". "Slightly nudging the engagement of healer downtime upward would leave it in a state you'd still complain about".

THIS, right here, is why the 11111111111 argument is my favorite. Because it's a step away from the most boring video game experience you could possibly conceive, and -every single one- of the current healer design white knights claims GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE GLARE is "too much of a good thing".

It's amazing. You'd think they'd curl up and burst into flames if they ever typed "why yes, casting one spell a gazillion times in a single encounter seems spammy and boring".

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Because the average player isn't thinking about the damage they are putting out. They are trying to keep on top of their own ability with the role along with the struggles of other players who are making constant mistakes and keeping them alive. This is completely the complaint of someone in a well-oiled savage static who has put hundreds of hours too much into a specific role. You paint yourself into a box; you won't play any other roles, you won't go in under-geared, and you won't take OP skills off your bars or do anything to make the game more interesting for yourself. This game gives you so much freedom and you refuse to take it.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

That's because forum posters are so out of touch with the rest of the playerbase. You've played the game to the point that healing is no longer a challenge. I doubt this is the experience of the average player.

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Lmfao this is my favorite one. "Forum posters are OUT OF TOUCH AND DONT REPRESENT THE REST OF THE PLAYERBASE!"

Everyone I talk to about healers in game hates the current healers.
The sprouts in my FC have told me that they think healers aren't fun and that they're very boring to play.
The healers in my static hate the current healers and one is only begrudgingly playing healer because I begged to swap off it for this tier, and they've been telling me how much they want to quit lately and have been asking if I'll consider going back to healer for the next tier.
Healer threads are consistently posted about here and other avenues of discussion about the game where people consistently discuss about how boring they are, how unfun 1 button spam is and how healers need to change.
Healers are the least played role at level 90 according to the Lucky Bancho census, and their populations have dropped in EVERY DC more than any other role - in an expansion where the healer role gained a new job, it still isn't making the "rest of the playerbase" flock to healers.
The lack of healers has gotten so bad that even Japanese players asked Yoshida about it in his recently Q&A with the community and he had to ask DPS and Tank players to "please try out healing."
The healer role is an instant queue almost always no matter what time you're playing across the game, across all content.

But yes, it's definitely the "out of touch" forum posters, and only us who don't like healers in this game. The rest of the playerbase clearly loves the current healer direction. The healer role is in such a state where Yoshida is repeatedly asked questions about it by not just NA/EU forum posters, but influencers at expansion launches and even Japanese players who generally have different views about how to play the game than western players do (Japanese players in general use strats that are safer to ensure a clear at the cost of DPS uptime where as NA/EU strats often are more dangerous to ensure DPS uptime) are complaining about how the state of healing and how nobody is joining parties on healer.

So if the rest of the playerbase loves healers so much, why aren't they showing up en masse to play them?

Maybe it could be that even the average bear can see that 1111 is anti-fun design and they don't want to play it when they could go play something that is designed to be fun?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Lmfao this is my favorite one. "Forum posters are OUT OF TOUCH AND DONT REPRESENT THE REST OF THE PLAYERBASE!"

Everyone I talk to about healers in game hates the current healers.

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Anecdote. I can counter with everyone I know who doesn't play healers won't play them because they have anxiety. The forum doesn't represent the player base and never has.

I see the same 10 people in all these posts. You people live in a bubble.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

Anecdote. I can counter with everyone I know who doesn't play healers won't play them because they have anxiety. The forum doesn't represent the player base and never has.

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Nice job not addressing anything else that was written. No matter how much you repeat your little mantra of "forum doesnt represent the playerbase", it won't change the objective facts that I wrote. :)

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Nice job not addressing anything else that was written. No matter how much you repeat your little mantra of "forum doesnt represent the playerbase", it won't change the objective facts that I wrote. :)

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What facts? It's just, like, your opinion man.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

What facts? It's just, like, your opinion man.

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It's my opinion that parties are sitting for hours waiting for healers to show up so much that people asked Yoshida about it? It's my opinion that Lucky Bancho's numbers show that healer populations have taken a dive? I accept your concession little guy.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

It's my opinion that parties are sitting for hours waiting for healers to show up so much that people asked Yoshida about it? It's my opinion that Lucky Bancho's numbers show that healer populations have taken a dive? I accept your concession little guy.

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It's your opinion that people aren't playing healer because they are bored of it. I countered with my opinion. Nobody has provided any studies or anything like that. There are no numbers, just conjecture.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

It's your opinion that people aren't playing healer because they are bored of it. I countered with my opinion. Nobody has provided any studies or anything like that. There are no numbers, just conjecture.

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https://i.imgur.com/IsZVZJX.png

Do you regularly come into threads where you have no clue what you're talking about and get mad at people who do, or is it only to defend your best bro and glorious leader Yoshida's grand vision?

Anyway, it's been fun but ultimately pointless. I'm going back to play the game. I hope you people get whatever it is you want.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

https://i.imgur.com/IsZVZJX.png

Do you regularly come into threads where you have no clue what you're talking about and get mad at people who do, or is it only to defend your best bro and glorious leader Yoshida's grand vision?

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Those stats don't explain the reason behind the imbalances. You'd need to poll the base in a study on their reasons why they don't play and it needs to be at least 5% of the base to be considered a valid sample.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

Because the average player isn't thinking about the damage they are putting out. They are trying to keep on top of their own ability with the role along with the struggles of other players who are making constant mistakes and keeping them alive. This is completely the complaint of someone in a well-oiled savage static who has put hundreds of hours too much into a specific role. You paint yourself into a box; you won't play any other roles, you won't go in under-geared, and you won't take OP skills off your bars or do anything to make the game more interesting for yourself. This game gives you so much freedom and you refuse to take it.

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I see the goalposts have been moved again. So you can't be in a static, huh? Well, I PF a lot, I play every role, I go in at minimum ilvl with basic melds and no overmelds, I've recovered P5S runs where 5 people die to devour, and guess what? Healer still boring.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

That's because forum posters are so out of touch with the rest of the playerbase. You've played the game to the point that healing is no longer a challenge. I doubt this is the experience of the average player.

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Healing in ShB and EW is significantly different than past expansions due to the heal ability bloat. You never have to touch your GCD heals, which would be harder to use. Even down to how fights are designed, every instance of damage is predictable, so mitigation is favored more than healing. Healers don't even get the full responsibility of mitigation. Given this, I have to say that the healing challenge is much simpler than before.

Also, the average player is hardly going to be effected by what I'm asking for. Using your heals correctly is the skill floor for healers. I'm not asking for that to change. I want the skill ceiling to rise higher via more damage buttons. Could be Aero III + Fluid Aura, Miasma + Shadowflare, whatever. The average player is going to be busier healing their party than paying attention to their rotation, right? More damage buttons won't change that.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

You paint yourself into a box; you won't play any other roles, you won't go in under-geared, and you won't take OP skills off your bars or do anything to make the game more interesting for yourself. This game gives you so much freedom and you refuse to take it.

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This is the suggestion? Not wearing the gear you earn in Savage and not using the abilities we're given by the game will make it fun? While we're still mashing Glare for 70% of the fight? Don't you see the problem with that? No other role has to limit themselves to feel challenged or engaged, because otherwise they'd be trolling their team (tanks removing mitigation or DPS removing attacks). It's only healers...

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Originally Posted by Foraet

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This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've ever heard on this forum, and I've seen some doozies, let me tell you. I just... oh my word there's just so much to unpack in this one post.

I've cleared several of the fights in the current raid setting of Pandaemonium with PF. I've cleared 1-7 with statics of varying skill level. The experience *does not magically become more fun* either way. In fact, healing the current tier is probably the least fun I've ever had as a healer in this game, and it's not because the fights are hard (they're not particularly hard at all, haven't cleared 8 yet because I'm super behind). In ALL of them, I'm solving the problem of damage with an OGCD use here or there and then spamming dosis over and over, at least when things are going well. Things not going well? Okay, a couple of GCDs I shouldn't have had to use but whatever I'll put trying to guarantee the clear over my own damage numbers, but then it's right back to dosis spam. I've played since ARR, but this is the first time I've done a savage raid tier from the first fight through current patch level, so no, I haven't spent "hundreds of hours too much into a specific role" and in fact back in Eden I split my time between DPS and healer. Healing just *isn't all that engaging or fun*.

Now, on to the rest of your awful post.

"You won't play any other roles"

Maybe because the game doesn't really support this unless you've been raiding every week and getting drops for alt jobs? Not to mention people in statics don't always have the option of switching their roles around.

"You won't go in under-geared"

Excuse me? One of the entire purposes of doing savage is for the gear, and the entire design philosophy of this game's combat is doing as much damage as you can, regardless of which role you're in. You wouldn't ask a DPS player to remove their gear, or else you risk not meeting enrage timers. You wouldn't ask a tank to go in undergeared because it actively makes life more difficult for the rest of the party. Why would you ask healers to go in undergeared? The fact that you'd even think to suggest such a thing should speak volumes in itself of the state of healers.

"You won't take OP skills off your bars"

Again, excuse me??? What... what kind of insane take is this? Yeah, just don't use half your job's features, guys, it'll make the game so much more engaging! :^)

Bro I think you're the one who's actually out of touch.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

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This tier has been the most unfun for me in terms of healing. I've healed a bit in Eden's second and third tiers, I healed all of Pandaemonium's first tier and up to 7 in the current tier. This tier has been so mind bogglingly frustrating and boring at the same time. It's just not fun, I don't like the fights, they're not hard by any means, they're just not fun. Healing them is just flat out boring.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

But there's also that old saying about too much of a good thing... or doing things in moderation. In general, I think some people invest / commit a little too much to this and don't give themselves breaks or become super conservative when it comes to change.

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here is the thing. I have taken a year a break from this. some may take shorter breaks When i did not find it fun. And i came back as you can see. the reason why i left are still here. No matter how many times they say if you want to provide feed back come to the forums. I have done that several times. Every time they offer question to be asked during live letters i post in there.


The fact that over the years and expansions they just making thing less interesting. I feel like that they do not know the player base like they think they do . For instance take take this title of this post. If you want challenging content do ultimate. Alright cool if those want something challenging to heal then ultimate however https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9r53b6q_c. someone solo healed it. Yes its just people can do it and most likely it took practice to do, but however Yoshi himself was said that statement with a straight face. If this was the case it should not be possible

With the current design even in ultimate its not "challenging" for healers. Now from my understanding this teir was bit better for healers (correct me if im wrong)

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Originally Posted by Foraet

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From what you say in general you might want to sit back and really ask questions before jumping in. just to sum it the current design isn't engaging enough. You saying the it could be healer anxiety could be but however i argue that to combat that is for them to practice on it , the more you understand it. Take this for instance when they had to test the role out they actually swapped the veteran healer test with a new one. And this will lead your other point about player average skill. New players or people new to the role will be in that bracket but however back to my statement practice

Ill give that the forum does not represent the player base but however what yoshi always say come to the fourms for feedback

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

But that doesn’t matter to the playerbase. Many people say that FFXIV isn’t supposed to be your main game. You play the story, try the raids, then put it down for another game when it’s finished. The less content we have with each patch, the more time they have to play better games. It’s why FFXIV is still one of the most critically-acclaimed games of our time. It respects your time instead of bogging you down with stuff to do. I personally look forward to World of Warcraft: Dragonflight next week. No MMO other than FFXIV lets me focus on another MMO while on the subscriber rolls.

Just take it from the latest ads for the game:
https://files.catbox.moe/p61qvu.jpeg

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Was....the best MMO, THEN.....

......but even then, XIV was never a respected MMO like their last one. XIV is viewed as a theme park by hardcore mmo players. It is something you can jump into, but nothing to stay for.

Like a chick with a nice body and zero personality.

WoW was always the King. 2 years of increased sales will never make up that type of ground. We are talking nearly 2 decades...older than some here maybe.

Saying that, don't plan on playing Dragonflight, because I could never really get into WoW.

Imo, the XIV craze is nearly over. All the streamers who wanted to get buzz from XIV got their fill. WoW is back to being the most watched mmo, with Lost Ark always somehow being the 2nd......

XIV is back to doing free logins, and perhaps overestimated their popularity with desolate servers.........

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Originally Posted by Foraet

It's your opinion that people aren't playing healer because they are bored of it. I countered with my opinion. Nobody has provided any studies or anything like that. There are no numbers, just conjecture.

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Citation needed

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

But that doesn’t matter to the playerbase. Many people say that FFXIV isn’t supposed to be your main game. You play the story, try the raids, then put it down for another game when it’s finished. The less content we have with each patch, the more time they have to play better games. It’s why FFXIV is still one of the most critically-acclaimed games of our time. It respects your time instead of bogging you down with stuff to do. I personally look forward to World of Warcraft: Dragonflight next week. No MMO other than FFXIV lets me focus on another MMO while on the subscriber rolls.

Just take it from the latest ads for the game:
https://files.catbox.moe/p61qvu.jpeg

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That's... an actual ad put out by SQEX?

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Originally Posted by Foraet

you won't play any other roles

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Joke's on you, I swapped to maining a DPS at the end of Stormblood. And wouldn't you know it. It's so weird! Me swapping to DPS somehow, amazingly, improbably, didn't make healers any less boring.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

That's... an actual ad put out by SQEX?

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Can't be. Doesn't use the official logo for the game, they wouldn't use the werewolf ears on Miqo'te, and... I don't think vanilla in-game female chests are that large but I'm not looking either way, so... uh...

looks sus

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Can't be. Doesn't use the official logo for the game, they wouldn't use the werewolf ears on Miqo'te, and... I don't think vanilla in-game female chests are that large but I'm not looking either way, so... uh...

looks sus

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I'll sacrifice myself and look for the both of us buddy. Once I've done some serious research that may or may not take some time...I'll report back to confirm.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Can't be. Doesn't use the official logo for the game, they wouldn't use the werewolf ears on Miqo'te, and... I don't think vanilla in-game female chests are that large but I'm not looking either way, so... uh...

looks sus

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It’s 100% a modded top

Source: I know

It's kinda sad how much more fun Healers are in PvP than in PvE.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

It's kinda sad how much more fun Healers are in PvP than in PvE.

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Imagine if WHM's PVP LB were an actual skill in PVE.

eh id say sch still sucks in pvp. that aside the pvp healers are FAR superior to the pve versions

there's also a fantastic and fun healer in the regular game. its called blue mage. No ogcds here folks, you got a handful of gcd tools, limited mp and an excellent downtime kit. Oh wait it cant go into df...


Once in SHB I solo healed as a Blu for a party of blu in O11n. Didn't have strotram either so it was one hell of a challenge. It was the only time I had fun healing in the last 3 years. I quit healing in 5.1, did it in 6.0 as sage for the role quest and early savage and that was it.

Unless you are doing blu or pvp healers (again except sch) healing is miserable currently and has been miserable for the last 3 years

Just cleared TEA for the first time, and as a healer I can say, there's one mech in there that actually deals with healers using their heals that's fun and somewhat engaging (J Waves). Every other mech has nothing to do with healers being healers and more of just overall fight mechanics. The fight itself is pretty fun, but as a healer I spent a lot of it *spamming dosis*. Woo, I get to have fun doing mechanics but not playing my job. And for my reward I don't even get to pick a sage weapon because SE doesn't want to go back and add jobs to the Ultimate rewards for some mind boggling reason.

"But why should they go back and add rewards to old content" you might ask, to which I say okay, if it's irrelevant then why should healers have to do it to find this supposed engagement in the game?