The problem with "Instant OFF GCD" abilities makes combat feel less rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think when your skill say Cast: Instant, you generally thing its an instant ability ... or maybe I am wrong :S

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Instant cast does not mean there is not an animation or effect or even that the effect with be applied instantly it simply means there is no cast time. Being able to apply 6 dots in an instant would just be broken, it would take all the skill out of chaining off-gcd and on-gcd abilities together to make a good attack chain.

A good example is thunder to aero, cast thunder the nano-second its down casting you can cast aero bam, two dots on the target at the same exact time, thats how you chain effectively. I dont know of any dots that are off gcd lol so aero was all I had there.

And then there is that issue where instant abilities are never really instant. Spirits within, instant right? wrong. You have to wait almost 3 seconds for the ability to do damage and silence your target. thats not instant. Even shield bash isn't really instant even tho it is a lot faster than spirits within.

You can't be truly reactionary in this game, because no skill is really instant. And they do this by design. in 1.0, skills were actually instant. You may have had animation lock, but if you use say Chaos thrust, the damage was registered to the server the moment you used the skill before it appeared on your screen. you can tell because if a long animation WS were to do enough damage to kill a monster, your party would not be able to attack the monster further, and they would have sheathed their weapons the moment the kill-skill got used.

It is even worse with healing spells. Lustrate is the worst of the single target, and succor is the worst of the aoe.

I wrote this on another topic, and thought I'd write it here too, because it definitely affects GCD usage and such:

Square said they didn't want to stress servers and only make a checkup on your location every 0.3 seconds. It will end up not working in the long term.

Make a boss ability where the delay between the visual for the spell effect and the time we have to move is 1.5 seconds. Now, consider the AoE appeared 0.3 seconds later than it really got cast, consider the 0.3 seconds server checkup on our location. You have 0.6 seconds less to move. So a 1.5 seconds time reaction is going down to a 0.9 seconds reaction time.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

The way I see things is as follows (correct me I am wrong):

GCD:
Trigger Action -> Action Performs -> Global Cool down -> Trigger Next Action -> Action Performs -> Global Cool down

Off GCD:
Trigger Action -> Action Performs -> Trigger Next Action -> Action Performs

And with off GCD, you can alternate, without waiting in certain circumstances. like

GCD Action -> Perform -> Off-GCD Action -> Perform -> GCD Action

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Off GCD:
Trigger Action -> Action Performs ->0.5-1sec animation cooldown-> Trigger Next Action -> Action Performs->

And with off GCD, you can alternate, without waiting in certain circumstances. like

GCD Action -> Perform -> 0.5-1sec animation cooldown-> Off-GCD Action -> Perform ->0.5-1sec animation cooldown-> GCD Action

here you go.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

Anyways, just my own input. Not entirely certain where people are coming from with complaining about this because I honestly don't see what is wrong in the first place.

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Animations block the use of certain skills. If I want to use Atherflow + Lustrate (two instant cast abilities) to heal the tank I have to wait for the animation of Atherflow to finish before I can use Lustrate. Since just about everything has an animation this is effectively a GCD for all abilities even for non-GCD ones.

I was going to say something in the early going of this, but with the dev response I am for sure going to say it now. The fact that you can not be performing 2 different actions simultaneously is how the game was designed, and is 100% more realistic. Why is this, well simply i cant swing my axe in two different directions for 2 different skills at the same time, instantly goes off yes, but still the action ends I cant start the next swing.

Now is this a problem? No. Why not? it is simple, EVERY mechanic in the game which is needed to be interrupted/silenced was designed and balanced around this animation lock. If you start a skill at the second the cast starts, your instant off GCD will be fired off BEFORE the cast ends, sometime it will be VERY close, but you always have time to do it.

Some people mentioned that this is a huge issue for healing, and what I can say is if your in a situation that if the instant off-GCD heal does not go off in he middle of your previous heal's animation than one of a few things is wrong, 1 you used the wrong cure 1st as you were not paying attention, 2 your tank is severely undergeared to tank this fight, 3 your tank failed to use a cooldown for mob X's hugh move (scripted use of mountain buster in titan come to mind here), or 4 your non-tanks didnt get out of something they should have avoided. In just about everyone of these situations your either dealing with content that is to hard for the current group, content that requires more skill for the current gear of your group, or someone messed up on hard content that is made to be completed with near perfection or wipe (real progression endgame)

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Originally Posted by KogaDrake

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I'm fairly sure you don't play healing classes.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

Where in the world are you people getting that these abilities are supposed to be instant!? Stop thinking about wow...put it out of your minds please this is not an instant gratification combat system it takes work and strategy just like playing a real final fantasy game this is not a button mash fest, time your attacks, I have never experienced an issue with this so long as I planned ahead and acted accordingly This is the first game I have ever had to actually try and read incoming attacks to know what I needed to activate for those weapon skills that so not have an aoe affect that hurt.

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It's funny because the current system IS a button mash fest. There's no way to tell when/if your off-GCD ability will fire or not so you have to spam the key to try to use it.

Even reliably using Swiftcast (next spell is 'instant') is a joke in combat because 90% of the time the key will not fire properly if you try to use it just after a spell. Once it does fire, there's a delay before you get the "buff" so if you try to cast immediately, odds are the spell will hardcast anyway. The amount of time you take recognizing that the game is shit and then adjusting your tactics usually makes you waste more time than if you'd've just hardcasted whatever spell you wanted in the first place. And that's just talking about one single off-gcd ability, I'm not even talking about chaining them. The game doesn't work like it should.

And don't even get me started on how much I have to mash Raging Strikes.

Shit awful game mechanics aren't the kind of "challenge" anyone should be defending.

It's hard to believe that people are actually defending this. Even as a staunch supporter of SE and a huge fan of FF, it should be patently obvious to anyone with any sense of logic that the system is not functioning as it should be.

Instant abilities on the whole are designed to be reactive. Prime examples are skills like Benediction, Swiftcast and any interrupt. If they don't take effect immediately they are almost pointless, especially when you factor in short enemy cast times and RNG spike damage for example

I don't think every instant should be off the GCD, but even when they aren't, stopping a cast time spell and then firing off an instant is simply far too unresponsive to be useful most of the time. If a skill like an interrupt is designed to actually trigger after a 1 sec animation, then it should have a 1 sec cast time.

As stated previously, as things are, a lot of the difficulty is simply fighting the interface rather than actual meaningful game difficulty.

People need to learn the difference between "GCD' abilities and dealing with an animation lock. It's really not that difficult to deal with it and adjust, and once you do, you'll find that it's just as fun as anything, and the fights are designed with it in mind.

So stop QQing.

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

It's hard to believe that people are actually defending this. Even as a staunch supporter of SE and a huge fan of FF, it should be patently obvious to anyone with any sense of logic that the system is not functioning as it should be.

Instant abilities on the whole are designed to be reactive. Prime examples are skills like Benediction, Swiftcast and any interrupt. If they don't take effect immediately they are almost pointless, especially when you factor in short enemy cast times and RNG spike damage for example

I don't think every instant should be off the GCD, but even when they aren't, stopping a cast time spell and then firing off an instant is simply far too unresponsive to be useful most of the time. If a skill like an interrupt is designed to actually trigger after a 1 sec animation, then it should have a 1 sec cast time.

As stated previously, as things are, a lot of the difficulty is simply fighting the interface rather than actual meaningful game difficulty.

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Please share with me a specific scenario where it's impossible to interrupt an ability with either an off GCD stun or Silence due to the animation lock. I'd love to hear it. And whatever you come up with (if anything) I can assure you I can give you advice on how to make it work.

Also share an example of RNG spike damage that's impossible to anticipate and results in a death purely because your benediction didn't go off the exact nano-second you pressed it and not because a tank didn't use a cool down or the ball was simply dropped healing wise somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Animations block the use of certain skills. If I want to use Atherflow + Lustrate (two instant cast abilities) to heal the tank I have to wait for the animation of Atherflow to finish before I can use Lustrate. Since just about everything has an animation this is effectively a GCD for all abilities even for non-GCD ones.

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I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. Every skill performed takes effect after an animation of the skill being performed. That is, the enemy doesn't receive damage from an axe blow until after the axe visually is seen to hit the enemy. I just am not sure I understand why people equate having to wait for the blow to land in the first place before being able to trigger another, with a post-effect cooldown.

This isn't technically a global cooldown, because a cooldown takes place after the action has already taken effect, and the effect isn't taking place until the animation finishes. The reason you cannot stack as quickly is simply because you cannot trigger one action, until the previous action takes effect. You aren't waiting for the animation, you are waiting for the effect itself, which is dependent on the action being performed, which is in this case tied to the visual representation, or animation.

I think this makes the most sense personally. Sure I would love if I could re-actively hit buttons and have them take instant effect, but then I wouldn't see any visual representation of the actions, it would simply be instant effect, or it would be a delayed animation which would stack strange since you could strike a killing blow, but then not see the blow until after the enemy dies. Which detracts from the immersion of the fights. Either you get real time animation, at the cost of waiting for the animation before the effect, or you get no animation, or you get a lagged animation which would be detrimental to the quality of the overall visuals.

Not trying to be argumentative here, I simply don't see a problem. I am looking at this from both the immersion perspective, and the implementation perspective, and I would prefer having consistent visuals with consistent effect time, over instant attacks with inconsistent or non-existent visual effects.

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Originally Posted by KogaDrake

Not true, on ADS the second i hit blunt arrow the cast bar for high voltage stops, not stops when the animation is done. just because there is a delay to when you see the number (client side) and when you hit the skill, does not mean there is a delay on the server side. If it worked the way you say it does then there would be many more issues with stuns in game then there are.

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Hmm. That is very interesting, I would have to see it in action to understand what you are trying to say, but I have not myself seen anything like you describe as Archer, Conjurer, or Arcanist (I haven't spent enough time on the other classes to feel I can speak to them). At a guess, there may be secondary issues relating to a) the general issues people have with drawing priority and b) server client lag, muddying the waters here. Because this has truly been absolutely consistent for me barring the occasional lag spike rubber-banding. I spent awhile playing with Virus and with Fluid Aura when I first acquired them to understand how to make use of them, and I have never seen this inconsistency you are speaking of.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I'm fairly sure you don't play healing classes.

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I dont, I play tank and DPS, but i am very close with my healers and we have discussed how this effects healing many of times, and i summarized our conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Please share with me a specific scenario where it's impossible to interrupt an ability with either an off GCD stun or Silence due to the animation lock. I'd love to hear it. And whatever you come up with (if anything) I can assure you I can give you advice on how to make it work.

Also share an example of RNG spike damage that's impossible to anticipate and results in a death purely because your benediction didn't go off the exact nano-second you pressed it and not because a tank didn't use a cool down or the ball was simply dropped healing wise somewhere.

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^^ this exactly. EVERY fight is scripted, the order of abilities used is FIXES, and thus the healer AND tank know when big moves are coming and need to adjust accordingly. Need to stun, well the cast is long enough for the animation lock as it is factored in when deciding on cast times, and once again, scripted so you know when it is coming, so even if it was too short with animation lock you skip 1 or max 2 gcd to stun/silence (and any fight like this has no enrage timer, so there is no rush).

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. Every skill performed takes effect after an animation of the skill being performed. That is, the enemy doesn't receive damage from an axe blow until after the axe visually is seen to hit the enemy. I just am not sure I understand why people equate having to wait for the blow to land in the first place before being able to trigger another, with a post-effect cooldown.

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Not true, on ADS the second i hit blunt arrow the cast bar for high voltage stops, not stops when the animation is done. just because there is a delay to when you see the number (client side) and when you hit the skill, does not mean there is a delay on the server side. If it worked the way you say it does then there would be many more issues with stuns in game then there are.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Please share with me a specific scenario where it's impossible to interrupt an ability with either an off GCD stun or Silence due to the animation lock. I'd love to hear it. And whatever you come up with (if anything) I can assure you I can give you advice on how to make it work.

Also share an example of RNG spike damage that's impossible to anticipate and results in a death purely because your benediction didn't go off the exact nano-second you pressed it and not because a tank didn't use a cool down or the ball was simply dropped healing wise somewhere.

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You're missing the point completely. Instants such as those mentioned are by design reactive emergency abilities. Making it so that success is dependent on predicting scripted encounters through repetition is simply boring and uninspired when compared to being genuinely based on fast reactions during a dangerous moment

If this is intended, It's a very dull design.

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

You're missing the point completely. Instants such as those mentioned are by design reactive emergency abilities. Making it so that success is dependent on predicting scripted encounters through repetition is simply boring and uninspired when compared to being genuinely based on fast reactions during a dangerous moment

If this is intended, It's a very dull design.

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scripted nature makes it easier to not mess up, but the point is that you have enough time (scripted or not scripted fight) to use a skill at the start of these casts and wait for the animation to end and then use your offGCD skill to stun/interrupt. They are still reactive/emergency skills, but you cant spam them making it more realistic.

If they made a change so instant offGCD skills fire off the second they are hit (i.e., no animation lock) then they would need to rebalanced every encounter that requires these skills to be used which means less reaction time and harder hitting boss moves since you can now double heal. This would be ok with the hardcore raiders who are more skilled, better isp, better computer and likely faster twitch reactions, but would hurt most of the game population, so don't expect to see it done (plus the sheer amount of rebalancing of content to ensure its not too easy now would itself be too much work at this stage)

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

You're missing the point completely. Instants such as those mentioned are by design reactive emergency abilities. Making it so that success is dependent on predicting scripted encounters through repetition is simply boring and uninspired when compared to being genuinely based on fast reactions during a dangerous moment

If this is intended, It's a very dull design.

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Or maybe you're missing the point, since a SE rep has even posted in this very thread telling you that your perception of how these abilities should work is INCORRECT and does not fall in line with their design.

The problem is you're just too hard headed to accept that and want it to work exactly how you want it to, instead of simply adjusting to it and bettering yourself to handle these situations that are giving you trouble.

The problem lies with you, not with the design of the game.

Edit: Also, still waiting for those specific examples mentioned in the above post. Stop dodging and actually back up your claims.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

What on earth are you talking about? Lets just accept every bad developer design decision for any game ever made because clearly the players just couldn't "adjust" to the developers vision. The clunky combat system is the worst part of the game and is the only thing keeping it from reaching greatness. Stop being a fanboy and realize that Yoshi and his crew did some really awesome things to turn the game around but they still missed the mark on some important things. Combat is not "minor stuff" and is probably one of the most important things to get right in an MMO. Most of the people complaining are MMO veterans and are familiar with every MMO combat system under the sun. There isn't some grand complexity that people are not understanding.

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Hear, hear!

Good post MomoOG.

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Originally Posted by Benjamen

I don't see anything wrong with it :s As warrior it lets me use a GCD attack and before being able to use the next part of the combo I can use 1 of the various buffs then rinse/repeat and yes it flows nicely, not sure if you notice but yes you cannot use the instant ones in an instant but during them you can break the animation forcing the next move (if that makes sense). Idk im not arguing but thats how its been for marauder/warrior, also Ive been trying gladiator

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http://i.imgur.com/m9gF4w4.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Do it all the time on my 34 PLD. It's called weaving, you should give it a shot.

Fast Blade > weave in Rampart (or Bulwark if you prefer, makes no difference) > Savage blade > Weave in Fight or Flight > Rage of Halone > Weave in Blood bath.

I have them all up in a single combo and didn't miss a beat.

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You're right, you didn't miss a beat. You only missed half of the potential duration of their stacked effects.

I'm not arguing that they can't be stacked. I am simply pointing out that this "breaking of animations" when using off-GCD abilities is non-existent. When you have two or more 15 second effects that you'd like to stack, and the GCD for abilities is 2.5 seconds, you would expect to be able to stack the desired effects and perform 5-6 attacks within their stacked duration. If these "instant" abilities broke animations as Benjamen claimed, then this would certainly be how things played out. However as things currently are, you pretty much sacrifice an attack from being included in that 15 second duration for each effect that you try to stack, due to all of the variable animations and ability delays. So stacking effects is actually detrimental to a player's effectiveness, forcing players to ignore their abilities instead of using them. Being forced to ignore your abilities instead of being encouraged to use them is what we call boring gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

I haven't been having much trouble on DRG. Most of the time my off GCD abilities are triggerable about halfway thru GCD

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No trouble? Look at your own words!

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

If you want to button mash, then that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you.

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It's like you haven't even played this game. Button mashing is rampant. We DON'T want to button mash. We are SICK of having to button mash in order to get a supposedly instant ability to trigger. That's the whole point of this thread. Have you even read it?

IDK, maybe it's because I play SF, KOF, etc and am used to learning timing for animation frames? I don't really see this as a problem. I play BRD and am fully aware that some attacks have a longer animation than others, and I use that when determining my skill rotation. Combat in no way feels slow to me, I can time my instants pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

http://i.imgur.com/m9gF4w4.jpg

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Do it all the time on my 34 PLD. It's called weaving, you should give it a shot.

Fast Blade > weave in Rampart (or Bulwark if you prefer, makes no difference) > Savage blade > Weave in Fight or Flight > Rage of Halone > Weave in Blood bath.

I have them all up in a single combo and didn't miss a beat.

It's not difficult. It doesn't even have to be in that order!

And if tanking multiple mobs, you can even tab between them and hit them with the different abilities to build threat more equally while weaving. Maybe even throw in a flash every now and then.

Yeah, no, sometimes the ability activing when you need it is the difference.

Spamming ifrit, sometimes a healer dies. I have no way to know if the living healer has swiftcast, and sometimes they don't. My immediate reaction is to hit sentinel. In a no-heals or minimal-heals situation, damage reduction cooldowns are more potent the sooner you hit it.

It does not break immersion if graphics stutter just a little bit because I hit Rampart halfway through my Rage of Halone animation.

It does not greatly change gameplay, nor unbalance fights, if this were to function this way. I don't mind doubletapping a stacked cd, like "Fight or Flight, Fast Blade", but i wish the double tap was immediate.

I would love to be able to just hit it once and go, but I understand if that's not their design idea.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Or maybe you're missing the point, since a SE rep has even posted in this very thread telling you that your perception of how these abilities should work is INCORRECT and does not fall in line with their design.

The problem is you're just too hard headed to accept that and want it to work exactly how you want it to, instead of simply adjusting to it and bettering yourself to handle these situations that are giving you trouble.

The problem lies with you, not with the design of the game.

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Sorry but that's just nonsense. It's completely counterintuitive. Say a boss ability has a 2 second cast, you're saying is that it's actually supposed to be a .75 second cast time.

If visual cues like cast timers and aoe indicators are not actually accurate, then why even include them? You can't be seriously suggesting that encounter mechanics are actually designed to be tuned towards integrating substandard reponsiveness,and that this is an acceptable approach?

Have you been keeping up with the Titan thread?

This game could have some of the best combat systems in the genre. It really could. At the moment it's held back by server unresponsiveness and developers being firm on their position.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Please share with me a specific scenario where it's impossible to interrupt an ability with either an off GCD stun or Silence due to the animation lock. I'd love to hear it. And whatever you come up with (if anything) I can assure you I can give you advice on how to make it work.

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Oh, oh! Let me guess what that advice is. "You need to initiate the stun immediately when the mob uses their ability, so your animation will finish in time to actually stun it. In order to make sure you can react early enough, just auto attack behind the mob until it's time to stun." ISN'T THAT FUN!

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

If you think about it, this system makes the most sense of all of them. Why should you be able to bash something with your shield while you're in the middle of swinging your sword down as hard as you can on it's head?

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Really? I am frickin' holding them in two different hands. That's why.

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

Sorry but that's just nonsense. It's completely counterintuitive. Say a boss ability has a 2 second cast, you're saying is that it's actually supposed to be a .75 second cast time.

If visual cues like cast timers and aoe indicators are not actually accurate, then why even include them? You can't be seriously suggesting that encounter mechanics are actually designed to be tuned towards integrating substandard reponsiveness,and that this is an acceptable approach?

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I'm saying nothing of the sort. If a boss has a 2 second cast, then it's a 2 second cast, you have 2 seconds to interrupt it. And if you know it needs to be interrupted, and that locking yourself into an animation is going to possibly make you unable to get your ability off in time, then you wait for the ability, interrupt, then resume your rotation. You see? It's all part of that forming a strategy thing that the SE rep talked about earlier in this thread.

If you think about it, this system makes the most sense of all of them. Why should you be able to bash something with your shield while you're in the middle of swinging your sword down as hard as you can on it's head? It's a matter of doing what's necessary for your situation. If something needs to be interrupted or you die, then that becomes the priority, not your rotation. And if for some reason you can't stop your rotation (for example: Building threat) Then someone else handles that particular one. ADS for example, if you have two Paladin's then the offtank Paladin can interrupt and make sure not to lock themselves in an animation. Then when the offtank becomes the main tank, the other taunts since they no longer have to immediately worry about building threat.

System is fine, it's not bad design, it's just not WoW.

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

Oh, oh! Let me guess what that advice is. "You need to initiate the stun immediately when the mob uses their ability, so your animation will finish in time to actually stun it. In order to make sure you can react early enough, just auto attack behind the mob until it's time to stun." ISN'T THAT FUN!

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If that's how you choose to ensure you get the job done, then by all means go for it. But anyone capable of paying attention knows generally when the ability is coming up and can throw in some DPS while waiting for it. Read above for my advice.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Have you been keeping up with the Titan thread?

This game could have some of the best combat systems in the genre. It really could. At the moment it's held back by server unresponsiveness and developers being firm on their position.

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Yep, and I've done titan plenty, consistently even. I personally wouldn't have an issue with them reducing the .3 second location check to .1 or lower. I think it'd improve things, but that's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Also, still waiting for those specific examples mentioned in the above post. Stop dodging and actually back up your claims.

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I'd have hoped you would have been able to see the wider context of the problem, but I guess not. Here's an example

There are many movement intensive fights. I'm not at endgame yet but an example that springs to mind is the second boss in DD. In this fight a healer often has to interrupt their own casts to move out of the AOE's. The key here should be my reactions, not wondering:

1. Is the game going to actually correctly calculate that I'm out of the AOE ?
2. Will the spell I tried to cancel by moving actually cancel in time to start the next cast ?
3. Will the swiftcast i do afterwards actually trigger in time ?

I shouldn't have to wonder these things, they should just work, like they do in every other MMO I've played. That's what makes combat fun, not wondering whether borked mechanics are going to kill the tank.

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

I'd have hoped you would have been able to see the wider context of the problem, but I guess not. Here's an example

There are many movement intensive fights. I'm not at endgame yet but an example that springs to mind is the second boss in DD. In this fight a healer often has to interrupt their own casts to move out of the AOE's. The key here should be my reactions, not wondering:

1. Is the game going to actually correctly calculate that I'm out of the AOE ?
2. Will the spell I tried to cancel by moving actually cancel in time to start the next cast ?
3. Will the swiftcast i do afterwards actually trigger in time ?

I shouldn't have to wonder these things, they should just work, like they do in every other MMO I've played. That's what makes combat fun, not wondering whether borked mechanics are going to kill the tank.

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Point 1: has nothing to do with this discussion. I'd like them to reduce the .3 second location check to .1, that'd be great.

Point 2: If you move before the cast is up, it's going to cancel, there's no 'if' about it. The game even allows you to 'queue' the ability if you start pressing within a certain time. Play with it to figure it out.

Point 3: If you know you're going to need swift cast when you get out of the AoE, why not pop it while you're moving? That way you guarantee it's up when you need it. No need to worry.

Continuation, due to 1000 char limit:

I'd just like to add that I love this game. I've been a huge fan of SE for a long time. I've been accused of being a 'White Knight' myself. The issues around this and similar topics is the ONLY major problem that I have with this this game at the moment. What I am acutely aware of though are these facts.

1. I really want this game to succeed
2. People have plenty of choice in the MMO market these days.
3. People who blindly defy that problems exist in the face of numerous pieces of evidence, examples and logic are only doing ONE thing : Jeopardising the future success of the game that they are seeking to defend.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Next

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If you can't see how these issues are intrinsically linked to the same root design problem then I'm sorry, you don't know enough about game mechanics to be having this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

Really? I am frickin' holding them in two different hands. That's why.

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Lol seriously? Ok Mr, why don't you buy a shield and sword and go shield bash a target dummy in RL while simultaneously swinging your sword into it's skull with all your might.

Please record it.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Lol seriously? Ok Mr, why don't you buy a shield and sword and go shield bash a target dummy in RL while simultaneously swinging your sword into it's skull with all your might.

Please record it.

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http://splicd.com/dkhpqAGdZPc/430/495

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

http://splicd.com/dkhpqAGdZPc/473/495

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That is most definitely not shield bashing something while simultaneously striking it with all your might.

Nice try though.

I have died using Hallowed Ground many times and it was mission-critical...say...Phase 3 Titan. I'm just saying.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

If you think about it, this system makes the most sense of all of them. Why should you be able to bash something with your shield while you're in the middle of swinging your sword down as hard as you can on it's head?

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Really? I am frickin' holding them in two different hands. That's why.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Lol seriously? Ok Mr, why don't you buy a shield and sword and go shield bash a target dummy in RL while simultaneously swinging your sword into it's skull with all your might.

Please record it.

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http://splicd.com/dkhpqAGdZPc/430/495

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

That is most definitely not shield bashing something while simultaneously striking it with all your might.

Nice try though.

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You must have missed the part where he explained how piercing or slicing is always superior to striking or swinging.

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

. In order to make sure you can react early enough, just auto attack behind the mob until it's time to stun." ISN'T THAT FUN!

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Stunning on Ifrit, I've found that I can safely get one one threat-combo rotation after each stun, and then it's back to camping the stun button.

Honestly, like Raymeo said, that's pretty absurdly boring. Watching, waiting for a cast bar is just ridiculous.

As to Kanzer, name a situation where you fight a big stone beast in real life, while occasionally being closed in rocks and dodging landslides, and I'll care about the reality of swinging sword and shield at the same time.

Also gladiatorial arts of old frequently had them doing that.

Seriously, my buddy has two fireballs floating around him while he spits fireballs out, and I don't have the strength to swing my shield mid sword-swing?

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Originally Posted by Gray_Spy

I have died using Hallowed Ground many times and it was mission-critical...say...Phase 3 Titan. I'm just saying.

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You know 'exactly' when mountain buster is going to happen. Being too slow to get hallowed ground up is not design flaw. You simply didn't think ahead and pop it when you needed to.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

That is most definitely not shield bashing something while simultaneously striking it with all your might.

Nice try though.

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Dude, C'mon... seriously. Are you now saying that our game mechanics should be based on actual reality ?

Off you go and youtube yourself fireballing a vicious monster in your back yard then, and then summon a giant chicken before jumping over the garden fence on your way to weaving an armoured tunic in 20 seconds.

EDIT: Signing off now due to need to sleep and reaching daily post limit. Kanzer, you're arguments are reaching further into the depth of absurdity and desperation with every post. Seems you are immune to actual logic. All you're doing is helping to jeopardise the future of the game. No offense, but please wake up.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

You know 'exactly' when mountain buster is going to happen. Being too slow to get hallowed ground up is not design flaw. You simply didn't think ahead and pop it when you needed to.

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Oh ok, because I.A.M.A.R.O.B.O.T. ? I should know exactly when my healer might mess up, get trapped, or need me to pop a cooldown? Great.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Stunning on Ifrit, I've found that I can safely get one one threat-combo rotation after each stun, and then it's back to camping the stun button.

Honestly, like Raymeo said, that's pretty absurdly boring. Watching, waiting for a cast bar is just ridiculous.

As to Kanzer, name a situation where you fight a big stone beast in real life, while occasionally being closed in rocks and dodging landslides, and I'll care about the reality of swinging sword and shield at the same time.

Also gladiatorial arts of old frequently had them doing that.

Seriously, my buddy has two fireballs floating around him while he spits fireballs out, and I don't have the strength to swing my shield mid sword-swing?

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There are many ways to handle ifrit. Having a Paladin do it is simply the most convenient because there's really no point in having an offtank in the fight. We've done it with only one tank with DPS taking turns interrupting. I found that to be pretty fun.

And it's not about having the 'strength' to do it, it's about momentum and footing. There's no gladiatorial art there someone is bashing someone with a shield while also slicing them up with their sword. One might happen directly after the other, but that's still not simultaneous <-- Key Word. I'd be impressed with anyone who could rear back and smack something with a shield with enough force before recovering from swinging their blade, because they'd be defying the laws of physics. And that is quite impressive.

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Originally Posted by Gray_Spy

Oh ok, because I.A.M.A.R.O.B.O.T. ? I should know exactly when my healer might mess up, get trapped, or need me to pop a cooldown? Great.

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Communicate better? I don't know man...if I were Paladin and knew mountain buster was right around the corner, and I was only sitting at 2k HP, I'd pop my cooldown and then tell my group "Hey, that's not available for next one, top me off quicker next time."

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

Dude, C'mon... seriously. Are you now saying that our game mechanics should be based on actual reality ?

Off you go and youtube yourself fireballing a vicious monster in your back yard then, and then summon a giant chicken before jumping over the garden fence on your way to weaving an armoured tunic in 20 seconds.

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No I'm saying it should be based on the reality SE has defined for the game. After all, it is their game.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

You know 'exactly' when mountain buster is going to happen. Being too slow to get hallowed ground up is not design flaw. You simply didn't think ahead and pop it when you needed to.

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Translation: "You simply didn't predict that crit ahead of time." After all, hallowed ground going onto cooldown and leaving us dead before it goes into effect is not exclusive to Mountain Blaster. In fact, Mountain Blaster is so predictable that it's probably the most rare place to see this happen. But it does happen elsewhere all the time.

But yep. You're right. That's on us. We're bad that way. All of us who play paladin and aren't you have a lot to learn.

The only reason the ability isn't popping immediately is because you are still under the effects of the cast you just finished. The tactical nature of the game requires a little more anticipation when casting things like Benediction. You had 2.5s of GCD to realize your tank was going to die. You should have either A. interrupted whatever you were casting to use Benediction or B. Find a tank that can survive more than 2.5 on his own.

People keep mistaking this battle design for action when it should be categorized as tactical.

It's like saying "I didn't know I was gonna run out of MP by spamming Medica II".