FFXIV population decline continues

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think most people were expecting that, to be fair.
I don't think it will be okay. I know it will be okay. People return eventually when something good happens.

As for the game itself... still see hundreds of parties for High-End content and lots and lots of people progging chaotic. It feels like it's booming if you join parties for that. On Dynamis I've met lots of sprouts in mentor roulette, and found full Ocean Fishing parties. I'm not seeing practical evidence of this "decline" reflected in the game.

But also, worst case scenario, if the population became a quarter of what it has been, it would just be like Heavensward and Stormblood which were fine.

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Bloody hell I have never seen such levels of coping, ngl I almost thought you were trolling
http://www.theneedlepointer.com/stor...6/PHPCU-06.jpg

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Originally Posted by TemporalFruitsAndVeggies

The problem is that we use the terms casual and hardcore for two different scales: difficulty of content and total time invested. So you are likely a casual player (showing up only for raid nights) who does hardcore content (progression raids). Many players are the inverse of that: hardcore players (multiple hours a day) who do casual content (roulettes, crafting, etc.).

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I mean sure but playtime is completely irrelevant to any conversation about anything, unless you just want to brag about how quick you reclear every week or something. The difficulty of content you engage with is the only definition of casual/hardcore worth talking about.

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Originally Posted by AlanJust

Bloody hell I have never seen such levels of coping, ngl I almost thought you were trolling

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I am talking from 10 years experience playing the game. That is how I know.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think most people were expecting that, to be fair.
I don't think it will be okay. I know it will be okay. People return eventually when something good happens.

As for the game itself... still see hundreds of parties for High-End content and lots and lots of people progging chaotic. It feels like it's booming if you join parties for that. On Dynamis I've met lots of sprouts in mentor roulette, and found full Ocean Fishing parties. I'm not seeing practical evidence of this "decline" reflected in the game.

But also, worst case scenario, if the population became a quarter of what it has been, it would just be like Heavensward and Stormblood which were fine.

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If the population of FFXIV fall that low, there is a high chance that Square Enix is going to put it in "maintenance mode" for ever, without any more content added.
"like Heavensward and Stormblood" could obvisouly be enough for players, but won't be close to enough for SE to continue to invest in it. There is even a chance that it would be the moment they decide to invest in a new one.

And if that happen FFXIV won't die, but will "end" in a sense.

Square Enix isn't known to be very patient with online game in decline, that's why they killed nearly all of their gatcha game even when they were just easy cash.

Well I guess I will contribute to this with my -1, finally overcame my fear of losing the damn house - feels so liberating.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

"like Heavensward and Stormblood" could obvisouly be enough for players, but won't be close to enough for SE to continue to invest in it.

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They wouldn't need to if the remaining population sustained it financially (the game supporting itself). The mog station also exists, which was added as a way to get extra funds to support the game.

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Square Enix isn't known to be very patient with online game in decline, that's why they killed nearly all of their gatcha game even when they were just easy cash.

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Like how they weren't patient with 1.0 and waited 2 years for it to be remade?

I think that they only kill games with no fans. Which those games obviously don't have. FFXIV was different, even in 1.0, and that's why they bothered. They even said that was the only reason they bothered.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They wouldn't need to if the remaining population sustained it financially (the game supporting itself). The mog station also exists, which was added as a way to get extra funds to support the game.
Like how they weren't patient with 1.0 and waited 2 years for it to be remade?

I think that they only kill games with no fans. Which those games obviously don't have. FFXIV was different, even in 1.0, and that's why they bothered. They even said that was the only reason they bothered.

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Support itself is maintenance mode, not "I will release an expansion every two years and five patches between each" mode.

And 1.0 -> 2.0 was two things : a do or die moment for Square Enix where they made the right choice about their last released game that transformed a disaster that could have killed them in a marvelous success and, more important, was more than 10 years ago.
Square Enix isn't the same company than back then and their strategies aren't the same neither, and a 10+ years game with a declining population will never have the same amount of risk taken for.

And there was a Final Fantasy game nearly as old as FFXIV in the mobile game they killed, that had a very large fanbase before... declining slowly but surely.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

Support itself is maintenance mode, not "I will release an expansion every two years and five patches between each" mode.

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Not necessarily. It depends how much revenue it actually generates. As I said, we were fine in Heavensward and Stormblood.

But all that isn't a realistic scenario at the moment. It's also a Final Fantasy game so people will play it purely because of that and none of the other reasons people are coming up with like "content" or "metas".

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Not necessarily. It depends how much revenue it actually generates. As I said, we were fine in Heavensward and Stormblood.

But all that isn't a realistic scenario at the moment. It's also a Final Fantasy game so people will play it purely because of that and none of the other reasons people are coming up with like "content" or "metas".

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Sorry but that not how it works. The game now as a maintenance cost (due to many things) far higher than it was during Heavenswoard and Stormblood.
And another "stupid but true" reflexe about this kind of situation in most company, is that a something that for a time brought in 10 and was seen as a success, then grown enought to bring in 100 will be seen as a dying failure if it end up bringing in only 30 even if it's still 3 times better than it was and will be abandonned. I have seen this in so many companies projects, in gaming and elsewhere that I instinctly know that it's exactly what would happen.

Just look at all the studios that fired people in gaming industry because or even closed some of those studios because they "lost the economic growth they gained during Covid period" while the current economic growth is still better than it was before Covid - even when anyone with a brain can understand that Covid time was a golden age for gaming.

And I agree with you last point, that litteraly what I was saying, FFXIV becoming a static MMO in maintenance, like FFXI.

A bad main scenario, the difficult content (ultimate/savage) becomes "simple", the easy content becomes slightly less braindead, a graphics update which allows you to see the pixels on weapons/armors, a very square formula for a decade, classes that all look the same without any identity but fortunately they are going to rectify that in 8.0 (oh no actually, they made the new class braindead 1 month after its release), mechanics that are too based on dance and not enough on execution, stuff that has no taste when you get it (except possibly the ultimates but with FRU which has become a savage+ idk), crappy dungeons, once you made the 1st you made them all, the GCD which remains at 2.5s base just because they have a netcode from the 90s, the casuals which literally have nothing to do (you sub 1 month by extension you can do all the casual content), 4.5 months between pactches, 0 long term content for casuals/midcores

No yeah, I REALLY WONDER why they're losing subs

Even with all the other MMO "refugees" gone or rage quitting ... the core base of this game will continue, just less profit for SE.

/Shrug

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

Even with all the other MMO "refugees" gone or rage quitting ... the core base of this game will continue, just less profit for SE.

/Shrug

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Typically, that isn't what happens. Once people are used to making a certain amount of money, they don't want to make less. What generally happens is that the devs will start looking for ways to squeeze the smaller playerbase for the same amount of money that they were making before via more aggressive monetization.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Typically, that isn't what happens. Once people are used to making a certain amount of money, they don't want to make less. What generally happens is that the devs will start looking for ways to squeeze the smaller playerbase for the same amount of money that they were making before via more aggressive monetization.

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What you don't understand is, FF14 is already a failed project in 2010. ARR is just an additional bonus to SE. These core base players (like me) all came over from 1.0.

Japanese work differently and they are unlikely to change their game overnight like Blizzard. (or over a quarterly patch).

It is what it is, either we like it, or we quit and save our money.

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

What you don't understand is, FF14 is already a failed project in 2010. ARR is just an additional bonus to SE. These core base players (like me) all came over from 1.0.

Japanese work differently and they are unlikely to change their game overnight like Blizzard. (or over a quarterly patch).

It is what it is, either we like it, or we quit and save our money.

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As one legacy player to another trying to pretend we are anything more than a rounding error these days or more important than any other player is just…….why?

Hell I’m less useful than a normal player because I pay less of a sub than everyone else because of my legacy discount

Legacy stopped meaning anything 10 years ago. 14 isn’t a “failed project that never gave up”, that sentiment is dead

It took WoW having a 50% active player loss within a month of an expansion drop to course correct. Until people start realizing 'huh, maybe I don't need this housing plot to be happy', nothing will change.

And, y'know. Given the general population's track record, I think it's safe to err on the side of nothing changing.

https://i.imgur.com/dRsIeEi.png

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Until people start realizing 'huh, maybe I don't need this housing plot to be happy', nothing will change.

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Sometimes sacrifices has to be done for the greater good.
But not everyone's ready to sacrifice to make a change.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

As one legacy player to another trying to pretend we are anything more than a rounding error these days or more important than any other player is just…….why?

Hell I’m less useful than a normal player because I pay less of a sub than everyone else because of my legacy discount

Legacy stopped meaning anything 10 years ago. 14 isn’t a “failed project that never gave up”, that sentiment is dead

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we love this game for a reason, declining population, bad expansion is not going to stop us from playing or loving this game. Until another FF MMO comes out.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

It took WoW having a 50% active player loss within a month of an expansion drop to course correct. Until people start realizing 'huh, maybe I don't need this housing plot to be happy', nothing will change.

And, y'know. Given the general population's track record, I think it's safe to err on the side of nothing changing.

https://i.imgur.com/dRsIeEi.png

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Is WoW not still steadily losing players though...

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Is WoW not still steadily losing players though...

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According to what they share to their shareholders, they seem to have somewhat stabilized... though they never fully recovered from the WoD or SL implosions.

https://i.imgur.com/9SkO04G.png

It's just a drought numbers will pick up when there's reason for them too. Until then I'm still gonna be playin.

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Originally Posted by innis31

It's just a drought numbers will pick up when there's reason for them too. Until then I'm still gonna be playin.

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a "drought" lmao

its the beginning of the expansion......

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Originally Posted by Clockworks

a "drought" lmao

its the beginning of the expansion......

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And isn't that sad

As a "hardcore" player:

- Cleared the tier in August. It's now January. Savage loot and tomestones still have the same weekly lockout as when the tier released.

- The only two new pieces of content since then are FRU and Chaotic, both of which are unappealing to me for different reasons. I have a static for Chaotic but we couldn't even play because of the server outages this weekend. Yay.

- Job balance is somehow atrocious while job design is more homogenized than ever before.

- There's literally no reason to gear alt jobs or even finish getting my main BiS, which is off by 2 pieces, because there's nowhere else to use it.

- There's no reason to do Extremes other than to grind for mounts that won't be purchasable for... what, another year?

- Dawntrail is the only expansion to make me wish I had skipped the cutscenes after finishing it because I was so angry at all the time I'd wasted waiting for it to get better. I hate the story and have no desire to engage with it or discuss lore and theories with my friends like I did throughout Endwalker.

The only reason I'm still subbed is because I'm babysitting my dead FC and its large house, but I'm caring less and less about that as time goes on because paying $13 a month for a virtual house in a game I barely play is pretty stupid. Not too hard for me to imagine why casual and midcore players are having an even worse time.

im a HC raider (M4s day 2) and my static started FRU yesterday (december vacation) we're nearly on phase 3 with 6 hours raid time

even with me being a hc raider who do all pve content, i've unsubbed for 4 months since DT release, I really dont understand why casuals keep their sub, each casual should sub only 1 month per expansion, but guess what they dont, and to me they really deserve to be treated like that, why bother doing content for casuals when they keep giving money ?

If yoshi P was your friend on top of "take a break if you are burned out" they would add "your sub is paused when you are not signed into the game"

maybe then they would be motivated to patch the game more than every 3rd of the year xD

in end long patch cycles and same formula we got 5 years ago is what's cooling interest in the game maybe the game should be free to play if they want to be slow about adding contents to the mmo.

just to do some math a person pays 15 usd sub for 10 years that guy paid 1.8 grand why nickel and dime them over outfits? if you got a group that paid more or around that much that are saying do better why are you not listening when they are not pleased with your writers? ?

and that's the thing if DT's story was good no one would be noticing this type of stuffs to begin with your mmo boasts an award winning story Yoshi P stop being fine with mixed reception to the story.

in end we'll see, been thinking to be done with this game after EW anyways hope it does better since XIV has been a long tme favorite since... 2016 but square has been on a tear of poor choices NFTs, broken up remakes, over priced slop games, likely out of touch Fossil CEOs, single player mmos list goes on...

And yet again people bashing the story, yea it isnt great but PLS STOP doing like ffxiv is the big story mmo with the best story which has now a bad story, no it isnt, we had TWO good expansion HW and ShB everything else was trash,

ARR - Trash
HW - Good
SB - Trash
ShB - Great
EW - Trash
DT - Trash

we have more trash story expansions then we have good ones, so why is there now a issue that DT is bad? its nothing new.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

And yet again people bashing the story, yea it isnt great but PLS STOP doing like ffxiv is the big story mmo with the best story which has now a bad story, no it isnt, we had TWO good expansion HW and ShB everything else was trash,

ARR - Trash
HW - Good
SB - Trash
ShB - Great
EW - Trash
DT - Trash

we have more trash story expansions then we have good ones, so why is there now a issue that DT is bad? its nothing new.

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Uhm... no? I disagree?
ARR - Alright (especially with some of side quests having some truly bleak storylines too!)
ARR Patches - Good (but dragged down by alot of pointless quests inbetween)
HW - Amazing
HW Patches - Decent
SB - Good (bogged down by a boring antagonist but overall good story)
SB Patches - Alright
ShB - Amazing
ShB Patches - Decent
Endwalker - Great
Endwalker Patches - Alright
Dawntrail - *vomit*

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

im a HC raider (M4s day 2) and my static started FRU yesterday (december vacation) we're nearly on phase 3 with 6 hours raid time

even with me being a hc raider who do all pve content, i've unsubbed for 4 months since DT release, I really dont understand why casuals keep their sub, each casual should sub only 1 month per expansion, but guess what they dont, and to me they really deserve to be treated like that, why bother doing content for casuals when they keep giving money ?

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without those people you wouldn't have a game be a HC raider on haha remember that more then 90% of the player base is casual and you also have roleplayers midcore players that have been left in the dust since endwalker

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Originally Posted by Clockworks

Nothing surprising, this company has shown times and times again they are absolutely out of touch with the entire playerbase, and the playerbase keeps defending their terrible decisions.

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Can you clarify this? If the playerbase agrees with / defends the company's decisions, wouldn't that mean they are in touch with the playerbase?

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Originally Posted by JackRazor

Can you clarify this? If the playerbase agrees with / defends the company's decisions, wouldn't that mean they are in touch with the playerbase?

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That's a good point :D :D

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Originally Posted by JackRazor

Can you clarify this? If the playerbase agrees with / defends the company's decisions, wouldn't that mean they are in touch with the playerbase?

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This wrests entirely on the defense being made in earnest. Or whether it is just standard passive aggressiveness and dismissiveness. Plus, you may have a lot of players that don't actually engage with that content, yet defend that specific piece of content, so I do think that both can happen in this instance, to be honest.

and frankly in gaming and even in the feedback cycle, this happens far more often than it should.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

And yet again people bashing the story, yea it isnt great but PLS STOP doing like ffxiv is the big story mmo with the best story which has now a bad story, no it isnt, we had TWO good expansion HW and ShB everything else was trash,

ARR - Trash
HW - Good
SB - Trash
ShB - Great
EW - Trash
DT - Trash

we have more trash story expansions then we have good ones, so why is there now a issue that DT is bad? its nothing new.

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This is extremely tone-deaf, ARR is still considered decent if a bit slow-paced, SB had more high points than low points, EW fulfilled many peoples' desires for a decent conclusion to the Zodi-arc.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

without those people you wouldn't have a game be a HC raider on haha remember that more then 90% of the player base is casual and you also have roleplayers midcore players that have been left in the dust since endwalker

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https://i.imgur.com/EkL7tQ3.png

90% of the playerbase is casual but 20% cleared M4S and savage isn't midcore content. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This wrests entirely on the defense being made in earnest.

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That's one way to shut down a dissenting opinion, I guess. Oh, but what if... now hear me out, what if the argument against this expansion is often histrionic, hyperbolic, and extremely selective in its facts?

You'll find that blade cuts both ways. Maybe come up with a better, less lazy way to counter an argument.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

https://i.imgur.com/EkL7tQ3.png

90% of the playerbase is casual but 20% cleared M4S and savage isn't midcore content. :rolleyes:

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You're both wrong.
Everyone knows it's the 1%.
/s

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

im a HC raider (M4s day 2) and my static started FRU yesterday (december vacation) we're nearly on phase 3 with 6 hours raid time

even with me being a hc raider who do all pve content, i've unsubbed for 4 months since DT release, I really dont understand why casuals keep their sub, each casual should sub only 1 month per expansion, but guess what they dont, and to me they really deserve to be treated like that, why bother doing content for casuals when they keep giving money ?

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A lot of casuals have different reasons for remaining subbed, as honestly it covers such a gigantic area of the game, from people that enjoy story, to people that enjoy the social element, to people doing content from several expansions ago because the game offered nothing, or just people remaining subbed for connections on this game and housing.

Honestly, no given group of players should be treated in the manner which you're suggesting, it's a good way to turn this game to garbage as it isn't just casuals that benefit from the developers adding casual content in the game. Arguably hardcore players benefit just as much, and if you wanted to treat it on a completely reactional basis, e.g., "Oh don't develop any casual content until x number of casuals are gone" then you would be looking at a game with far far longer patch cycles than what we currently have. If all casual players, even by a generous estimate of 70% were to only sub for 1 month across an entire expansion cycle then this game would actually struggle to push content out without being a lot more aggressive on the Mogstation and potentially delving into more objective P2W elements.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

That's one way to shut down a dissenting opinion, I guess. Oh, but what if... now hear me out, what if the argument against this expansion is often histrionic, hyperbolic, and extremely selective in its facts?

You'll find that blade cuts both ways. Maybe come up with a better, less lazy way to counter an argument.

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It's not meant as a means as countering any argument, it's just a simple observation that not all defenses on this game are done with sincerity, just how in the exact same vein not all criticisms are done with rationality in mind, and can often be hyperbolic. - Am I really going to have to be that specific with you in future when I am addressing a very specific point on whether you can still be out of touch with the game whilst people are defending it...?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

im a HC raider ...

i've unsubbed for 4 months since DT release ... each casual should sub only 1 month per expansion ... hey really deserve to be treated like that, why bother doing content for casuals when they keep giving money ?

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This reads "well im raider and i sub when i raid, i have content, casuals clearly like the game because they keeping subbing so why give them content so just more raider plz" to answer your original question, casuals stayed subbed for many reasons, their houses, friends, roleplaying, fishing, whatever tomfoolery goes on at venues, MSQ, crafting/gathering, blue mage, triple triad, gold saucer etc. Any combo of any of those, even just one of those is a valid reason for someone to stay subbed if they find joy through it.

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Originally Posted by Clockworks

a "drought" lmao

its the beginning of the expansion......

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There is one though. Objectively, which I know you're aware of considering we've discussed it on other threads. Weird reason to come at this person.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

so why is there now a issue that DT is bad? its nothing new.

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Probably because people are critiquing more than just the MSQ?
People can say that a particular expansion was good for its story and bad for its battle/player content provided in each expansion, for example.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

90% of the playerbase is casual but 20% cleared M4S and savage isn't midcore content. :rolleyes:

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When you get that percent as a percentage of people who cleared the normal version, which I think is a good baseline, it's more like 30%. It's also around that much even as a percentage of people who cleared Dawntrail MSQ. The rates in JP climb to around 50%. And Lucky Bancho's stats seem to agree with that too.

And that's just people who got through M4S - it's quite common to just clear 1, 2 or 3 floors.