Tanks holding fights hostage in Roulettes

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

OK, i have never tried to leave a party so i do not know whether it works or not if you are dead. But ALT+F4 always works.




Cheers

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And then getting locked out of the game because your char is stuck in an instance.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

OK, i have never tried to leave a party so i do not know whether it works or not if you are dead. But ALT+F4 always works.




Cheers

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Ok even I have too comment on how ridiculous that is.
ALT+F4? Really?

When the whole group is saying to reset and a tank ignores that then that is ignorant behaviour at best and being a jerk at worst no matter the circumstances or if it’s against ToS or not.

Other players aren‘t NPC‘s.

Re: alt f4 to leave

Actually some good points here: allow people who are down to leave the instance and/or vote kick. It is bad design to force them to just sit and wait.

If asked to reset and the tank refuses, it is reasonable to allow the other 3 party members to kick them.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

OK, i have never tried to leave a party so i do not know whether it works or not if you are dead. But ALT+F4 always works.




Cheers

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What an inane, absurd suggestion which is actually against ToS if you want to go there.

You're better just giving people the option for Vote Reset, so it resets that specific boss. Then you leave it entirely with a vote. If people want to let the tank solo, then they may do so. If they don't, then I guess the tank will just have to deal with not feeling like they're the main character LOL.

It's crazy to me that so many people seem so against basic etiquette and communication in an MMO

As a very solo MMORPG player for most of my life I've spent on this genre.. I can't understand the influx of people who treat MMORPGs like single player games with a bunch of obstructions (read: other players) standing in the way of their gameplay.

This should not be happening in a trinity MMO and just goes to show how unneeded healers and how busted tanks are. The whole class department (whatever that is) did an awful job this expansion (and longer, if I'm being honest).

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

What an inane, absurd suggestion which is actually against ToS if you want to go there.

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I got this tipp here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...65#post6570165


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I got this tipp here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...65#post6570165


Cheers

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I hope you also do know that the ALT+F4 it's an old way of trolling on MMO.

Thanks, I'm going to solo the boss even harder.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentOxen

Thanks, I'm going to solo the boss even harder.

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The fact that you're listed as a WHM makes this even funnier. I'd pay to watch a healer solo a boss ngl lmfao.

My recommendation would be that next time a tank does that, report it and include a link to this thread and the other one dealing with this issue. While the vast majority of tanks will reset, the are jerks who have no respect and can’t understand that this is a group activity.

We had egoistical tanks last night who decided to finish Valigarmanda after the stack marker on the very first pull with 4 new people in the group. The only reason they were still alive was because of their role. The WAR didn’t even use Shake it off to try to help the party members who were stacked but in insufficient numbers (the other tank didn’t even stack for most of the attacks). A simple reset and explaining what to do to the new people would have been a no brainer to anyone civilized. SE needs to reimplement enrage timers in normal mode as a safeguard against jerks if they are going to make tanks unkillable gods able to solo 8m current synched content (of have the boss cast doom after a minute or two if 75% of the party is dead). To me this behaviour falls under nuisance behaviour.

True. I had several similar experiences.

i though this behavior has been well known for a long time even before dawntrail? party wiped except tank and solo the boss for good minutes before tank die.

if boss has like 10%ish hp... yeah maybe the tank can do it, even more if it paladin since he can self heal, above 50%? i just go and grab a drink lol

I just close my game and call it a day when tanks do this and restart after a bit. I am not here to watch you flex. And to blame folks to not die when the healers die and everyone is taken down with them and then forced to watch tank for 10-15 minutes solo is crazy.

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Originally Posted by TojiSuzuhara

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...550&height=348


i genuinely almost never post here but its been a more common occurrence i've noticed this expansion specifically where tanks, knowing they can just out sustain a boss, will refuse to reset a fight and instead force players to sit there and wait for them to whittle a boss down. I decided to take my WHM into trial roulette for my daily and got Valigarmanda normal. There seemed to a be a couple of newer players and they were having issue with the add phase/stack marker mechanic and we ended up dying due to not having enough bodies to survive the stacks (except the tanks) so i was trying to explain to them the easiest way to handle it. Instead, the tanks only on the 2nd or 3rd pull decided to just keep going and make us sit and watch and the encounter ended up taking almost 30 minutes. I thought the healer strike thing was silly at first tbh, but i've noticed this happening more and more often and i'm at the point now i will just not be taking healers in duties anymore, ya'll can suffer.

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Lol yeah I've seen this but at least in normal difficulty, sometimes it does pay off, meaning sometimes they do end up killing the boss even if it is at slug pace. I guess it feels rewardign for the tank like if they were goku and all the hopes of the planet rely on them. It's an ego rush. Haven't tried it but tbh I kinda want to.

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Originally Posted by TojiSuzuhara

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...550&height=348


i genuinely almost never post here but its been a more common occurrence i've noticed this expansion specifically where tanks, knowing they can just out sustain a boss, will refuse to reset a fight and instead force players to sit there and wait for them to whittle a boss down. I decided to take my WHM into trial roulette for my daily and got Valigarmanda normal. There seemed to a be a couple of newer players and they were having issue with the add phase/stack marker mechanic and we ended up dying due to not having enough bodies to survive the stacks (except the tanks) so i was trying to explain to them the easiest way to handle it. Instead, the tanks only on the 2nd or 3rd pull decided to just keep going and make us sit and watch and the encounter ended up taking almost 30 minutes. I thought the healer strike thing was silly at first tbh, but i've noticed this happening more and more often and i'm at the point now i will just not be taking healers in duties anymore, ya'll can suffer.

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What do you think this is, WoW? One DPS is doing too little DPS so you kill yourselves? No, a tank can sometimes finish the fight. There is no point to giving up!

I don't really get it either. If I think I can clinch a victory in the next few minutes with the boss fairly low, I'll continue. I'll also keep going for a second or two if we're near a new mech to show the new folks. The I wall it. I don't get this idea of wasting not just 20 or 30 minutes of other people's time, but 20 or 30 minutes of my own time as well. If the party is struggling, I ask if there'a anything I can help clarify. But sometimes they want to keep going blind and I'm behind that 100% since I appreciate getting to go blind when I'm new.

[QUOTE=Shinku_Tachi;6569035

But yeah, there should be a rage timer or a "super tank buster" added to these fights, to keep this from happening.[/QUOTE]

No. Those suck.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I think the issue is more "what happens in the grey areas"? What if it's at 18-20%? That's above 15%, but far away from 60%. Where does the proverbial line get drawn?

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It's better to not really try to nail it down to a specific percentage. If the boss is at say 25% and I do my burst and it does like 1%...yeah I'm walling that. So if a tank or tanks continue for a few seconds or through a burst, you can get a handle quickly on how fast the boss is going to go down and gauge whether you can polish things off or reset so the team can try together again.

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Originally Posted by SteakDriven

What do you think this is, WoW? One DPS is doing too little DPS so you kill yourselves? No, a tank can sometimes finish the fight. There is no point to giving up!

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Where in the post did he say the rest of the group purposefully walled over one bad dps?

Not surprised that this can happen, given the game's aversion to any kind of failure state lately.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Yup.... Tanking.... Not DPSing and Killing a boss... But taking it's hit and survive them.
Not the same thing.

So it's not your role to take down the boss.


Really, i really hope it didn't take you long to process all this.... it would be a shame otherwise.

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What exactly is your problem? Please point where I was rude towards you, or do you just act this way with anyone that disagrees with you because unfortunately you have no argument against why should a player just give up ilbecause people are dead.

It is not the fault or the players that SE designs fights and classes in such a way where they can achieve certain things that should not be possible.

Fights should have enrage mechanics 100% but a player not giving up is not holding a group hostage.

Edit: Before you say something like the community should be willing to take the time to help others learn and improve. That is not the role of the community, community members can agree to do so, but not everyone has to agree to such standards. At face value all that happened was a pair of tanks just played out the fight. We going to really tell players it is not okay to try because x amount of people are dead or it would be quicker to reset it? Asking people to give just give up just does not sit well with others and some wish to see something to the end. Is this really wrong?

I'm usually healer so don't run into this issue very often, but if it does I'm mostly annoyed when the tank then don't do anything to help a DPS that is still alive even when the tank themselves is under no threat of dying. Then them soloing just really takes forever when they could use a targetable mit skill on a DPS about to be hit by a raidwide.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Edit: Before you say something like the community should be willing to take the time to help others learn and improve. That is not the role of the community, community members can agree to do so, but not everyone has to agree to such standards. At face value all that happened was a pair of tanks just played out the fight. We going to really tell players it is not okay to try because x amount of people are dead or it would be quicker to reset it? Asking people to give just give up just does not sit well with others and some wish to see something to the end. Is this really wrong?

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Do you realize what you are saying?

I really don't want to be part of a community who's standards are "it's not my job to care about my fellow players" yikes

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

What exactly is your problem? Please point where I was rude towards you, or do you just act this way with anyone that disagrees with you because unfortunately you have no argument against why should a player just give up ilbecause people are dead.

It is not the fault or the players that SE designs fights and classes in such a way where they can achieve certain things that should not be possible.

Fights should have enrage mechanics 100% but a player not giving up is not holding a group hostage.

Edit: Before you say something like the community should be willing to take the time to help others learn and improve. That is not the role of the community, community members can agree to do so, but not everyone has to agree to such standards. At face value all that happened was a pair of tanks just played out the fight. We going to really tell players it is not okay to try because x amount of people are dead or it would be quicker to reset it? Asking people to give just give up just does not sit well with others and some wish to see something to the end. Is this really wrong?

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I want to see a vote wipe option being implemented just to piss the crybaby egofueled tanks off.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I want to see a vote wipe option being implemented just to piss the crybaby egofueled tanks off.

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Same. I really want to see the feedback from tanks when tanks can longer do this. I mean it's not griefing, it's no big deal, so why not just bar tanks from doing it? And players can play however they want, so it should be put to a vote.

The real truth is, half of tanks will complain because they specifically play the role to troll, as these threads have only made obvious. And I'd love to see it.

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Originally Posted by gllt

I really don't want to be part of a community who's standards are "it's not my job to care about my fellow players" yikes

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Agreed, which is why it's so disappointing to see people unwilling to put in the effort to play at level 100, and then cry when someone has enough of it, and just does it for them. This is a team game, put in the effort.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I want to see a vote wipe option being implemented just to piss the crybaby egofueled tanks off.

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Work away, don't be upset when people start getting kicked because they can't do basic mechanics they should have learned over 50 levels ago. More people need kicked from instances. It's no longer acceptable.

If it's not your first time and you are constantly dying to the easiest of mechanics that have been drilled into you then why should the rest of the party have to put up with it? It's getting beyond a joke now watching players die to the most basic of attacks then rush to the forums to complain that the content is too hard.

All roles need more self sustain so they are no longer at the mercy of people that can't do the most basic of tasks. Healers should be there to supplement the healing and damage, not to be the sole source of it.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Work away, don't be upset when people start getting kicked because they can't do basic mechanics they should have learned over 50 levels ago. More people need kicked from instances. It's no longer acceptable.

If it's not your first time and you are constantly dying to the easiest of mechanics that have been drilled into you then why should the rest of the party have to put up with it? It's getting beyond a joke now watching players die to the most basic of attacks then rush to the forums to complain that the content is too hard.

All roles need more self sustain so they are no longer at the mercy of people that can't do the most basic of tasks. Healers should be there to supplement the healing and damage, not to be the sole source of it.

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Oh be quiet. You know very well not nearly every instance of death is due to unwillingness to learn. You know very well when expansions are new. Stop painting it like millions of players die due to simple unwillingness to learn mechanics-- that's just not true. And if someone struggles with mechanics their first few instances of any given encounter that's totally normal. You deciding on your easy mode job to paint everyone with a broad brush is the problem. Ruining every job with raise or healing because you can't control yourself is never gonna happen.

SE needs to implement a solution asap. Some of you have shown gross levels of disregard and indignance with your posts that proves you are counter to the long term health of the game.

And I can't emphasize enough, they are literally never going to redo all jobs over a tiny % of harassment tanks. Please just fix it with a vote or enrage and be done with it, SE.

The entire premise of this complaint is that if they were a better healer they wouldn't be in that situation to begin with hth. No current normal trial or duty requires two healers, that's been their whole point right? So why is it suddenly the tanks fault the healers can't actually do their job?

The amount of hate and vitriol against tanks will never not be funny to me.

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Originally Posted by Karious

The amount of hate and vitriol against tanks will never not be funny to me.

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"how dare u be alive, stop playing the game"

I mean, really the only way around this is enrages in normal content. They're not going to take away tank sustain anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Agreed, which is why it's so disappointing to see people unwilling to put in the effort to play at level 100, and then cry when someone has enough of it, and just does it for them. This is a team game, put in the effort.

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Here I'll help you understand my viewpoint better.

If you're dealing with someone unwilling to learn or play the game properly, I have no objections to you objecting to that. Do whatever you think is the best course of action at that point.

But we might define what that is slightly differently and have different opinions about what a player should be expected to do.

I think players should be good enough not to die in most normal content in 14, especially by later levels, but it should never be anything more than most until they've seen it a bit.

If the already easy content is so easy that you can clear it strictly based on prior game knowledge, no matter what kind of player you are, or what situation you're in, on first try every time you queue in, then that's embarrassing game design. The newest content in an expansion should filter everyone on their first playthroughs a bit even on normal, especially considering what the skill level of an average player is, whether we like it what that level of skill is or not.

My argument is that for the good faith average skill level players, it's your job to babysit them to a reasonable extent no matter what role you play, but especially tank and healer, in order to bring that skill level up. They are also expected to do things like hit training dummies, queue in while not sleep deprived, etc that's what I mean by good faith.

I do NOT expect them to go look at a dungeon guide. They are entitled to a first time experience without watching a mechanics guide. Maybe if you help them and it still doesn't work out, then sure. Community resources are great. They make up for Square's failures to help teach the players the game to get them to the skill level you're expecting them to have. I just think your attitude is failing them too!

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Edit: Before you say something like the community should be willing to take the time to help others learn and improve. That is not the role of the community, community members can agree to do so, but not everyone has to agree to such standards. At face value all that happened was a pair of tanks just played out the fight. We going to really tell players it is not okay to try because x amount of people are dead or it would be quicker to reset it? Asking people to give just give up just does not sit well with others and some wish to see something to the end. Is this really wrong?

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It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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The only thing the group "needs" is to clear. The tanks are doing just that.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It is because the needs of the entire team need to be considered and not just the desires of one or two people. If someone is new, they most likely need the practice to learn how to not die on the mechanics. Tanks that do this are denying them that ability. If there are a lot of wipes and the tank doesn't want to help instruct or be there supporting them figuring it out (which they're not required to do) then they can take a penalty and let the party get in a tank who will be what the party needs. If a tank wants to see something through to the end when they are alone, that is one thing. But in a team situation then the team as a whole needs to be considered.

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Isn't technically the objective when you queue for something is to clear the fight? Unless you are joining a learning party or something. The tanks completed the objective.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I want to see a vote wipe option being implemented just to piss the crybaby egofueled tanks off.

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I mean that is one solution, personally I rather see progressively stricter enrage mechanics as the expansion goes on.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

They're not going to take away tank sustain anytime soon.

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Yeah because they're too busy nerfing dps sustain lmao.
https://i.imgur.com/ThBCZ4a.png

Clearing the fight as a cooperative team and clearing it at the expense of your team are not the same thing. Sure, you got the clear, and I don't have to like you, but I want you to know I will expressly dislike you and think you're a poor player if you look down on our teammates if they were trying their best in good faith.

Clearing is only one objective. The other objective is having fun. Within reason, like all things, it's good etiquette to consider if you're impacting the experience of your teammates.

Much like they should be trying to learn and clear the content instead of wiping, you should be considerate of their gameplay experience when they're trying to do so. Within. Reason.

So yeah, leave it up to Square what's actually against the rules, but I'm glad I play every role and I've never thought once when tanking to have such a poor attitude and outlook regarding my teammates. I can't imagine Tanking and not consulting my party and conceding to consensus even if it IS bad idea because I care about my party more than a clear. If we have to do the entire dungeon again, who cares? It's a video game. I have a life outside it and a house to clean with limited time for gaming too so I understand wanting to make the most of what you've got. But if you think your 15 minutes matters more than theirs, yeesh.

If you want consistency, go in with a premade party or something. You get instant queue times and you know everyone you're playing with. Make a group in PF to run roulettes with all day, take job applications for your party, verify that skill level so you don't have to babysit or something. Run with your FC members. Go play with NPCs and enjoy some intended solo gameplay. Queue in by yourself both sync and unsynced and have a little fun. Tank solo content when you don't have dead people in the ground IS very fun!