People Enjoy hard Games

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

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I agree... everyone ignores the word " Optional "... We're not suggesting or at least most of us are not advocating to make mastering harder difficult content or Job nuances as " Mandatory ". Yet when Optional difficulty to master or do, usually in the form of lifting the Skill-Ceiling is even mentioned? they don't even think about the implications that it wouldn't affect their casual content or gameplay... nor will they define it as leaving the Skill-Floor alone... heck I'll even be surprised if they know what we mean by Skill-Floor at this point... they will just view it as " The most hardcore extreme players want to screw over casual players " when it can't be further from the truth.

And it is indeed hypocrisy. So much of the optional casual play already exists and yet they want more which affects eventually the joy of players seeking complexity, but they will rarely or never advocate for optional complexity. For me? Mainly I desire Job complexity or stop simplifying our job designs

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I agree... everyone ignores the word " Optional "... We're not suggesting or at least most of us are not advocating to make mastering harder difficult content or Job nuances as " Mandatory ". Yet when Optional difficulty to master or do, usually in the form of lifting the Skill-Ceiling is even mentioned? they don't even think about the implications that it wouldn't affect their casual content or gameplay... nor will they define it as leaving the Skill-Floor alone... heck I'll even be surprised if they know what we mean by Skill-Floor at this point... they will just view it as " The most hardcore extreme players want to screw over casual players " when it can't be further from the truth.

And it is indeed hypocrisy. So much of the optional casual play already exists and yet they want more which affects eventually the joy of players seeking complexity, but they will rarely or never advocate for optional complexity. For me? Mainly I desire Job complexity or stop simplifying our job designs

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Yes, citizen, couldn't agree more with this. I don't understand how people get the idea that introducing more optional difficult content is somehow going to screw over casual players in the game.




Spirits be with you.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

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Equating those who feel shafted by increased job simplifications and lack of midcore content in the interest of focusing only on what attracts the most casual of players or buoys XIV's Twitch presence to the "hardcore" players of "hardcore full loot PvP" games is... quite the stretch.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

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Yes, but how is adding difficulty options harming casual players? That issue got solved like decades ago yet SE is dumbing down everything and therefore everyone gets affected.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

Yeah, couldn't agree more with this. I don't understand how people get the idea that introducing more optional difficult content is somehow going to screw over casual players in the game.

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Because some people think they're entitled to have all content tailored specifically for them. They cannot comprehend the idea of optional content, and will force themselves to do content they hate, and then complain about it.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Because some people think they're entitled to have all content tailored specifically for them. They cannot comprehend the idea of optional content, and will force themselves to do content they hate, and then complain about it.

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Also players who are afraid the difficulty will spill over into casual content. Honestly its been more the other way around as SE tries to get more players interested.

There's a non-zero amount of us who want hard content, but only if it's not timegated with a weekly lockout and/or currency cap.

It's not worth dealing with people over timegate, no matter how much you devote to thirsting with exclusive mounts and glamours.

This is why I stopped playing FFXIV for months at a time, even though I started last year.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

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IMO I disagree with that assessment. I'd say the majority of most player bases is the players in the middle range. And it's those players in the middle range that end up being the ones that have to suffer from the noisy, obnoxious, whiny, entitled, easy mode players that are being labeled casual when the actual casual players are the ones in the middle range that enjoy challenging and engaging content that isn't tuned to push skill proficiencies or limits but doesn't just hand everything to you like it's candy on Halloween.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And most people wanting complexity to their jobs don't want it to be "optional", they want it to be required for clearing content above the MSQ level, which is only optional if we stretch the word to its limits. Indeed, when people propose adding that complexity but having a negligible DPS difference so that it IS optional, the people wanting the "optional" complexity insist that not be allowed. Meaning it's not "optional" at all. If you were really just asking for something optional (e.g. SCH to have 4 DoTs but optimal use of them produced the same DPS that current Boilspam does - making it truly optional), people wouldn't mind. It's when you ask for a change and then want to preclude the existing status quo from being able to clear content, often by saying "Well, if you don't want to grow, you shouldn't be clearing it"; which makes it not "optional" anymore.

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You haven't yet explained how any additional optional complexity to jobs would somehow cause people who can already clear non-MSQ content right now to suddenly become unable to. Did you know that extremes can be cleared by healers who do no damage? Did you know that savage can be cleared by healers who do half their potential damage output?

Even in the extremely unlikely scenario of optional complexity reducing the output of the current playstyle to half of what it is now, people would still comfortably clear every piece of content except ultimates. I'm not sure where the gatekeeping is.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

IMO I disagree with that assessment. I'd say the majority of most player bases is the players in the middle range. And it's those players in the middle range that end up being the ones that have to suffer from the noisy, obnoxious, whiny, entitled, easy mode players that are being labeled casual when the actual casual players are the ones in the middle range that enjoy challenging and engaging content that isn't tuned to push skill proficiencies or limits but doesn't just hand everything to you like it's candy on Halloween.

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I'm in this category. I don't have the time or energy to push the super difficult content like Ultimate, but I DO want some content that at least makes me think. Which FF14 is severely lacking in.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The problem is, it's generally NOT optional in most proposals, it's mandatory.

Again, this is literally the crux of the entire disagreement. Getting this wrong means an impossibility to come to a solution since you fundamentally don't understand what the disagreement is even about.

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<< "Right now we have mechanics 1-8 in our kits and barely even need to passably do 1-3 (or, roughly half the kit overall) to do clear virtually all content, since the fundamentals are worth so much more than each little element of difficulty added thereafter and all content is really quite lenient right now. However, even when using that entire kit, the gameplay still feels kinda... shallow/barebone, so I'd love to have a few more mechanics to work with. It's fine if content continues only to require as much as it does now, even after those additions. We can just raise the output ceilings that little bit, without nerfing what exists now."

>> "You would FORCE that additional complexity on everyone?!?!"

???

Someone disagreeing with you about what is optional is not a failure to understand that disagreement.

Just as players are not forced to go BLM right now, nor forced to optimize any job, neither would they be forced to make use of additional skill ceiling. None of that is mandatory.

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

they both outperformed FFXVI which is a story game with incredibly easy gameplay.

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Thanks, I needed another excuse to complain about that game.

So I saw a comment on reddit, a guy who actually tried to explore the maps without being prompted to do so. He kept finding odd rooms that look like an event might happen there. Of course they were all empty on first visit. He soon learned that those slightly larger rooms only exist to host battles against hunt marks, ones he hadn't progressed enough to unlock yet. So he just stopped going anywhere until the game explicitly told him to, as it is designed. CBU3 hate exploration, unpredictability, player agency.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I feel like there has to be a distinction made between "challenging" and "hard". But it's been a long week and I'm not sure I'm up to the eloquence required to get the point across right now. I'll try to remember to come back to it later.

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As threatened, I want to come back to this idea a bit. Lots of opinions incoming. I'm mostly going to be sticking to current endgame for this ramble, because by all things holy I'm tired of thinking about the Crystal Tower.

Most people aren't looking for something super-difficult, just something more engaging. And a lot of level cap content doesn't deliver on it after the first week or two. Part of it, I believe, is that item level increases without real synching defangs a lot of encounters. Compare Endsinger at launch to her state today; you can power straight through most of the first phase, without even seeing repeat mechanics beyond maybe the second set of planet collisions. You won't see the part where she resets the collisions to replay twice in a row, or the diving attack where she's also dropping AoEs on people. (The final phase is also over in half the time, but that part was basically a victory lap in the first place; now you just miss part of her monologue.) Now that most of us massively out-gear the fight, it's lost the threat and become almost a formality. Similar fates befell Shinryu and Hades. (Thordan on Normal mode was never a challenge in the first place, sadly.) Compare to, say, Hydaelyn, who syncs the party, and thus can still put the hurt on if you don't follow the mechanics, and it's night and day.

Now, part of the challenge is, naturally, going to be lost in repetition, as we simply learn the dance steps and remember how to do things. But power creep is undeniably a factor, too. The same also applies to other endgame content. Compare Aglaia or the first four floors of Pandaemonium at launch to now.

I also honestly feel that a lot of our jobs are simply far too powerful now. Tanks, in particular, being able to solo current dungeon bosses is absolutely absurd. The idea that healers can be left out of current content is also disheartening, to say the least. I'm not gonna go deep into healer game play, because I don't play them enough myself to feel qualified to do so, but I can see why most of them are less than happy right now. Tanks have lost all sense of challenge, which in turns means healers have less to do as well. Tanks could stand to be toned down some, to give the rest of us more to do.

That segues into another point. Are jobs hard to play? Well, no. Some are a little harder to get down than others (I struggle a bit with remembering Ninja's mudra combinations, for example), but none of them are especially difficult to figure out. But were they harder in the past?

For the most part, no. Not really.

I'm sure someone's already preparing an angry and probably insulting reply, but read on first.

Jobs have never been hard to play, at least not for the right reasons. Tanks used to struggle with aggro, because the game was designed around damage races and aggro stance reduced damage, so nobody wanted to use it. That's not really hard, that's just a weird design choice. Party buffs and AoE heals had smaller ranges, but that just meant people had to group up closer to the caster; it's not a challenge for the caster so much as a fail state for the other players. Machinists in Stormblood had a clunky and excessively ping-dependent Heat gauge; yes, you could learn to play around it and get decent results, but that's still more bad design than genuine difficulty. Summoners had to press a lot more buttons, but that's complexity, not difficulty. (Mind you, I'd agree that summoner went a bit too far in the other direction now, but it still wasn't that bad before.)

If anything, I'd argue that a lot of jobs just feel cluttered and overly busy, without actually being meaningfully more challenging to play well. More buttons doesn't equal depth when you're hitting them all in mostly the same order all the time anyway. Once muscle memory takes over, you barely think about it anymore anyway. (There's also my issues with attack and spell animations being obnoxiously overdone, to the point where it's sometimes hard to even see the target under everything happening, but that's a whole other thing.)

This kind of comes to my thoughts on the overall issue. I feel like the challenge should come from what the game is doing. Enemies need to hit harder and faster, and players need less ways to invalidate it all. I also feel that we should be worried more about watching the play field, rather than keeping up with a fifteen-button rotation and positional combos and other controller gymnastics. The basic building blocks are in the game, they're just not used as effectively as they could be. In short, I want it to be more challenging, but for the right reasons.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I'm in this category. I don't have the time or energy to push the super difficult content like Ultimate, but I DO want some content that at least makes me think. Which FF14 is severely lacking in.

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Same. If you don't have the time to put into its more hardcore content but also don't want everything to be a cakewalk, that's where the game struggles to provide. As someone who has become a more casual player, it does not mean I want or like easy/unchallenging content. Quite the opposite, it's off-putting to me if it's too easy.

It's one of those reasons I was annoyed by 16 not offering a harder difficulty from the outset, as well. I don't feel it respected my time particularly well by demanding I play through it once and the base difficulty was not fun to me.

Likewise in XIV, I'd like more optional segregation of the MSQ difficulty levels, as well as more midcore content in general. I second this poster in this being something where I believe WoW currently does a better job on delivering. I have some issues with that game but it does get some things right.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

This kind of comes to my thoughts on the overall issue. I feel like the challenge should come from what the game is doing. Enemies need to hit harder and faster, and players need less ways to invalidate it all.

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I think that's a good summary of what a lot of games get wrong, XIV included.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

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I went and looked into it a bit, I found that if a SCH doesn't put up Biolysis even once in P9S, the damage loss can be almost entirely covered by a NIN direct critting a single Hyosho Ranryu.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I went and looked into it a bit, I found that if a SCH doesn't put up Biolysis even once in P9S, the damage loss can be almost entirely covered by a NIN direct critting a single Hyosho Ranryu.

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Healers have 2 damage buttons and one can be invalidated by a single DPS critting a single time in the burst window (if hyosho Ranryu crit does it at least enkindle will also do it)

Absolutely A++++ design

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Because some people think they're entitled to have all content tailored specifically for them. They cannot comprehend the idea of optional content, and will force themselves to do content they hate, and then complain about it.

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You speak the truth for real. In other cases they'll force themselves to do content they hate and then say it was good content that was time well spent because of the sunk cost fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[B]Just as players not forced to go BLM right now, nor forced to optimize any job, neither would they be forced to make use of additional skill ceiling. None of that is mandatory.

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Healers have 2 damage buttons and one can be invalidated by a single DPS critting a single time in the burst window (if hyosho Ranryu crit does it at least enkindle will also do it)

Absolutely A++++ design

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These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

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Pretty sure that the point is: Healers spend 90% of their actions DPSing. Those DPS actions largely come down to two buttons. But the healer DPSing is so unimportant that they can be covered by a DPS getting lucky. So, what is the point of playing a healer if there is almost nothing to heal and your DPS doesn't matter?

Generally people fall into three camps in this issue:
1) They are fine with the status quo.
2) They want more DPS actions / more contribution to DPS. If you are going to spend the majority of your time doing dps anyway, might as well make it fun.
3) They want there to be more to heal in encounters. So you spend less time doing damage and more time healing / being a support / etc.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

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You should be able to optimise to do more damage if you understand your class. A (clunky) example of this sort of optimisation is AST, if you never draw a card in the entire fight you are likely only losing about 15% of your total damage, MNK and BLM’s lines are also examples of this sort of optimisation (though again there isn’t remotely enough of it)

Crit variance is not a form of optimisation and nor should it be big enough to invalidate that level of damage variance of another class (even a healer), remember this is savage on this point if your skill floor is 80% of your skill ceiling in this theoretical design then you should be doing 95% to clear savage, not relying on crit variance of another class

My personal resentment of that fact is also coloured by how boring healer damage in general is, I have 2 damage buttons and one is completely invalidated by the damage done by one burst window crit of one DPS job, just kinda makes your contribution feel worthless

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You should be able to optimise to do more damage if you understand your class. A (clunky) example of this sort of optimisation is AST, if you never draw a card in the entire fight you are likely only losing about 15% of your total damage, MNK and BLM’s lines are also examples of this sort of optimisation (though again there isn’t remotely enough of it)

Crit variance is not a form of optimisation and nor should it be big enough to invalidate that level of damage variance of another class (even a healer), remember this is savage on this point if your skill floor is 80% of your skill ceiling in this theoretical design then you should be doing 95% to clear savage, not relying on crit variance of another class

My personal resentment of that fact is also coloured by how boring healer damage in general is, I have 2 damage buttons and one is completely invalidated by the damage done by one burst window crit of one DPS job, just kinda makes your contribution feel worthless

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I feel like part of this design issue is caused by player attitudes that frequently surface outside of static compositions. If the party wipes due to tanks repeatedly dying or healers not keeping up with the damage output you'll frequently get people flaming the tanks or healers over it. If the party wipes due to enrage caused by low DPS or a failed DPS check you rarely see people flaming the dps and instead see the whole "Oh well. I guess WE weren't good enough"

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

I feel like part of this design issue is caused by player attitudes that frequently surface outside of static compositions. If the party wipes due to tanks repeatedly dying or healers not keeping up with the damage output you'll frequently get people flaming the tanks or healers over it. If the party wipes due to enrage caused by low DPS or a failed DPS check you rarely see people flaming the dps and instead see the whole "Oh well. I guess WE weren't good enough"

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DPS shirking responsibility for raid problems is nothing new to MMO’s so I don’t really think it should factor into design decisions

I'm satisfied with the amount of hard content XIV has. Savages (and EX to some extent) are pretty hard to the average player. There's Ultimates, but also Criterion dungeons, although the latter suffers from having a good structure but with awful payoffs. Honorable mention to Deep Dungeon harder levels and solo challenges.

If I could add something to the cache of hard content to run, would be - something - to do at the even patches that is not Ultimate. Maybe they can move Criterion there in Dawntrail, but I like the idea that it can be (if properly managed) a complement for the raid patch. An actual 'perfect even patch' for me would have something more out of the box when it comes to harder content, like Delubrum Reginae Savage, and since they hinted that a Field Mission is a possibility for DT, there's hope.

What I'm not satisfied with, though, is job design and the 2 minute meta and how it's basically the source of all the recent 'dumbing down'.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

If anything, I'd argue that a lot of jobs just feel cluttered and overly busy, without actually being meaningfully more challenging to play well. More buttons doesn't equal depth when you're hitting them all in mostly the same order all the time anyway. Once muscle memory takes over, you barely think about it anymore anyway...

...I feel like the challenge should come from what the game is doing. Enemies need to hit harder and faster, and players need less ways to invalidate it all. I also feel that we should be worried more about watching the play field, rather than keeping up with a fifteen-button rotation and positional combos and other controller gymnastics. The basic building blocks are in the game, they're just not used as effectively as they could be. In short, I want it to be more challenging, but for the right reasons.

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A good group of Casual Players mention endless times that they do not wish the game to be anymore challenging. Meaning... the difficulty that the game could provide must be " Optional ", ruling out increasing difficulty of any content below Extreme or even Savage Difficulty as it would otherwise creep towards it being " Mandatory " . Players have proven to prefer tricking the queue up towards Crystal Tower, and doing Extreme/Savage content on Echo or Unsynced rather then when it's current, I believe partially cause Square has conditioned and pampered players to never improve

Suggesting there for difficulty to be provided through the game features? is admirable I don't disagree, but Square shows no sign of moving towards anything else but sticking to what the game currently is all bout... Dishing more DPS or dealing with taking DPS. That's it. Hell Square even has proven to even nerf content deemed to difficult. Examples of content nerfs? think Orbonne, Red Chocobo and Iconoclasm to name but a few.

We'll have to go to optional difficulty by choice which comes in the form of modes. But even here? Savage raiders even like myself avoid Ultimate's as it's not meant for everyone. More of this is always welcomed for Hardcore raiders though, of which is being denied. Arthars even asked Yoshi P personally about this, it's just a polite no. Players who want more difficult content? can count themselves lucky to even get Criterion. Casual players are already having issues getting more content out of Square, let alone more difficult content being served up...

This means the last thing left we have... that we can apply and affects how we experience nearly all PvE combat content? is our " Jobs " in the form of rotation depth and complexity. More buttons for the sake of more? is equally as meaningless as less for the sake of less... unless its given substance of which gradually is being taken from us. Bit by Bit, Rework by Rework, Job by job, Patch by Patch, Expansion by... Expansion. And there's Zero proof that any simplification was necessary or held back any content being the difficulty that it is or can provide beyond. Kaiten removal or SMN rework did not held us back from us not getting DSR and TOP to name one extreme example. Giving up more? is also an empty promise that we might get something more difficult...

This is also why you have players like me who value Job complexity that's " Optional " as this will never negatively affect Casual or Hardcore players.

Yet Summoner was a low played job before its rework. Now it's one of the most played Jobs.

The people have spoken.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Baldurs Gate and Elden ring

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Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate make a fraction of the revenue that FFXIV does. FFXIV is easy on purpose so that people can get to endgame as quickly as possible and enjoy social activities like clubbing and ERP. And FFXIV pays off without any of the work that other companies have to put in. So what's the loss here? You're subscribed anyway, so clearly Square Enix did something right.

Not to mention that Square Enix is nowhere near the size or scale of Larian or FromSoftware. Like, come on. It's like expecting caviar from McDonald's. It ain't gonna happen pal.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

DPS shirking responsibility for raid problems is nothing new to MMO’s so I don’t really think it should factor into design decisions

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It shouldn't. But think for a minute on what influenced other design decisions in this game and you start to see why this probably was a factor in this title.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate make a fraction of the revenue that FFXIV does. FFXIV is easy on purpose so that people can get to endgame as quickly as possible and enjoy social activities like clubbing and ERP. And FFXIV pays off without any of the work that other companies have to put in. So what's the loss here? You're subscribed anyway, so clearly Square Enix did something right.

Not to mention that Square Enix is nowhere near the size or scale of Larian or FromSoftware. Like, come on. It's like expecting caviar from McDonald's. It ain't gonna happen pal.

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Wow so 14 dwarfs them in revenue, this revenue somehow can’t be used to make the game better but also square is small indie company

This is like three layers of defending square all in one comment

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner was a low played job before its rework. Now it's one of the most played Jobs.

The people have spoken.

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People flocking to a job because it's easy does not mean the job is good. The easiest job will always have the most players.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner was a low played job before its rework. Now it's one of the most played Jobs.

The people have spoken.

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it... it wasn't unpopular. it did not even come close to other jobs like BRD, MNK, SCH or AST in ShB. please don't just make random shit up

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

People flocking to a job because it's easy does not mean the job is good. The easiest job will always have the most players.

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19 pages of people asking for optional complexity (example BLM a job so easy on the surface but that can be optimised to hell and back) and job depth and people still come on and say “but SMN popular” as if they just had an ascended epiphany we are all just too stupid to understand

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner was a low played job before its rework. Now it's one of the most played Jobs.

The people have spoken.

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The only thing being spoken by the people in that case is that there's a lot of reasons to pick SMN. What people don't seem to realise is that not everyone who plays SMN enjoys it. Just like how not everyone who did Eureka enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

19 pages of people asking for optional complexity (example BLM a job so easy on the surface but that can be optimised to hell and back) and job depth and people still come on and say “but SMN popular” as if they just had an ascended epiphany we are all just too stupid to understand

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They make it sound like the total subscriber count magically skyrocketed to Ultima Thule with SMN rework... when in reality? RDM and BLM are just the worse alternative choice vs SMN being idiot proof for Savage raiding, making it also the caster choice with least fluctuating damage performance as a bonus. The rework made SMN the dumbest DPS Job... By that logic? we should turn every Job into the dumbest possible version to improve FFXIV, regardless if that would ever result in more difficult complex optional content. I join Raiding Discords where SMN is picked not cause they like it? because its the most faceroll Job... that's not why players should play it, but that is a large reason...

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

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I don't know of anyone saying there shouldn't be optional difficulty levels for content or optional grinds.

The opposition is to those who think that the game's difficulty needs to be increased at all levels as opposed to giving them a new harder option. Not everyone is saying "give me a Very Hard mode for solo duties". Some have said "solo duties shouldn't be as easy as they already are on Normal, and there's no reason for Easy or Very Easy to be added".

As I also said, what we want as players for difficulty doesn't really matter. SE is going to do what's best for their bottom line. They're the ones who made the choice to add Easy and Very Easy to Normal for solo duties, but did not add a Very Hard. We can only speculate why they haven't. My guess is because they know very few players are going to pick a Very Hard mode when the reward will be the same reward that the player will get if they do it on Easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner was a low played job before its rework. Now it's one of the most played Jobs.

The people have spoken.

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People play it because you push 4 buttons to do 12k dps

The job is terrible but people play it because of how easy it is

It’s not an indication by any means that the job is good

Difficulty in FFXIV :
"let's make 15mn OHKO/TPK so it takes X wipes to learn each and repeat them all until the end"
I'm just a casual so my opinion isn't worth much on the matter, and I'm sure people enjoy that, but it just feels cheap to me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Equating those who feel shafted by increased job simplifications and lack of midcore content in the interest of focusing only on what attracts the most casual of players or buoys XIV's Twitch presence to the "hardcore" players of "hardcore full loot PvP" games is... quite the stretch.

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I never said that. Neither do I think not having more midcore content would be bad. Heck, I'm a pretty midcore player myself. I would welcome more things to do. I'm just sick of all the hate towards casual players. They're not the problem. The dev team not wanting to bother with balancing things and thus making all jobs play the same is.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I never said that.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

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Nobody is lobbying for SE to make the game hostile to casual players yet you brought that up.

People enjoy a lot of things.

lmao a turn based RPG is “too hard” just because the meta hasn’t cheesed all of the gameplay yet

lmfao about meta sheep bleating about a game being easy when you don’t even play it yourself…. You have other people tell you how to play it.