At this point will FFXIV collapse if all mods and third party tools disappear?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

For raiders it's rather simple, they'll just go back to WoW, they're probably raiding in both games already anyway.

For the people sitting in Limsa all day on the other hand there are always other options because what you seem to miss is that these people aren't playing XIV for it's amazing (lmao) gameplay or strong (lmao²) mmo elements.
They would just go to a different game that is essentially an online chat room with decent graphics and visual customization, because that's essentially all they're engaging with anyway.

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I like how you take the the very next sentence after the party quoted me that I said and said the same thing like you were trying to make a point lol And for the second part for the people chilling in limsa what game would that be, elder scrolls, wow, guild wars 2 really dont think any would be able to grab them for anything extended. They might get some influx but not retain them.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

I like how you take the the very next sentence after the party quoted me that I said and said the same thing like you were trying to make a point lol And for the second part for the people chilling in limsa what game would that be, elder scrolls, wow, guild wars 2 really dont think any would be able to grab them for anything extended. They might get some influx but not retain them.

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You understand that the reason they chill in Limsa is because they share mods with each other, right ? Also they hang out and look at each other's glams amongst other stuff, but mods are a big part of why they are even there

Else they'd literally be sitting in their houses afk doing absolutely nothing, stop acting as if FFXIV is superior in every way and as if no one is going to dare leave because all the other mmo's are terrible, wake up, also mods are a big part of this game, deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

And for the second part for the people chilling in limsa what game would that be, elder scrolls, wow, guild wars 2 really dont think any would be able to grab them for anything extended. They might get some influx but not retain them.

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Maybe none of those? Let me spell it out again, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT MMO PLAYERS. They are here for a pretty dress-up game with chat functions. They are here to play Second Life with graphics that aren't from 2003.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Maybe none of those? Let me spell it out again, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT MMO PLAYERS. They are here for a pretty dress-up game with chat functions. They are here to play Second Life with graphics that aren't from 2003.

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People like this literally dont understand that for a lot of people, this game is a social hangout simulator with good looks, not a content game (lol content in ffxiv)

All you need to do is search the FFXIV hashtag on twitter and on other websites to see that what is the big "image" of this game isn its modding/gpose community is that image, I will even go as far to say barely anyone cares about new content clears when a new tier releases.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Maybe none of those? Let me spell it out again, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT MMO PLAYERS. They are here for a pretty dress-up game with chat functions. They are here to play Second Life with graphics that aren't from 2003.

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Why does it have to be one or the other? I know many who enjoy both. I know savage raiders who also RP and collect glams. Whats wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Why does it have to be one or the other? I know many who enjoy both. I know savage raiders who also RP and collect glams. Whats wrong with that?

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Because those aren't the people we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Maybe none of those? Let me spell it out again, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT MMO PLAYERS. They are here for a pretty dress-up game with chat functions. They are here to play Second Life with graphics that aren't from 2003.

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The MMO aspect of a MMORPG is far less designed than the RPG aspect, these players are online and participating in the game world, just not in ways you seem to want them to. What’s the issue with this again?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because those aren't the people we're talking about.

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Fair, but then okay what about the people who ARE only here for second life/IMVU type stuff? Why does that bother anyone? They are contributing cash flow to the game and other than their character model physically existing in the world I don't see how thats a problem.

If people want MMO's where the focus is on mind breaking encounters with spreadsheets and stats item weights and other sweaty buzzwords, there are plent of other games that deliver that experience better.

Stop having fun playing dress up there is serious business dungeon grinding to be doing you ingrates!!!!! >:(

Stop having fun playing dress up there is serious business dungeon grinding to be doing you ingrates!!!!! >:[

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The MMO aspect of a MMORPG is far less designed than the RPG aspect, these players are online and participating in the game world, just not in ways you seem to want them to. What’s the issue with this again?

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Where did I say that I don't want them to? Read my reply again and what I'm replying to, it's not rocket science.

I sometimes seriously question people's reading comprehension. Where did I make a judgement on the second life/IMVU players? Unless we now assume that putting something in caps for emphasis is a judgement.
I simply stated the fact that they're here to play dress-up and chat, so if you take the dress-up part out of it by banning mods they will go somewhere else, because they are not here for the MMORPG part, they probably couldn't care less about the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The MMO aspect of a MMORPG is far less designed than the RPG aspect, these players are online and participating in the game world, just not in ways you seem to want them to. What’s the issue with this again?

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Fair, but then okay what about the people who ARE only here for second life/IMVU type stuff? Why does that bother anyone? They are contributing cash flow to the game and other than their character model physically existing in the world I don't see how thats a problem.

If people want MMO's where the focus is on mind breaking encounters with spreadsheets and stats item weights and other sweaty buzzwords, there are plent of other games that deliver that experience better.

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That's literally not what the talk is about. :D

ACT is the life's blood of raiding in this game. For many, chasing numbers and competing for clear times are the only reasons to continue doing any of it once they've got their gear for the tier. I know raiders don't account for that much of the community anymore, but hoboy is there gonna be trouble if that's ever taken away.

If you want a judgement from me however, here is one. I find it depressing that being a limsa chatter is probably the most satisfying way to play the game at this point, because they are always happy with what they get, just like RPers they make their own content.

Meanwhile I'm sitting here, watching XIV's gameplay become increasingly dogwater for 2 expansions now and questioning why on earth I ever invested this much time into a game that thinks we're all too stupid and we need the devs to reduce the game down to "our level".

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

People like this literally dont understand that for a lot of people, this game is a social hangout simulator with good looks, not a content game (lol content in ffxiv)

All you need to do is search the FFXIV hashtag on twitter and on other websites to see that what is the big "image" of this game isn its modding/gpose community is that image, I will even go as far to say barely anyone cares about new content clears when a new tier releases.

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These people need to get out side and get laid, such desperate and social deprived saddos

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Originally Posted by raelgun

These people need to get out side and get laid, such desperate and social deprived saddos

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I mean that's like, your opinion, I'm sure they dont care about what you think dont you worry

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If you want a judgement from me however, here is one. I find it depressing that being a limsa chatter is probably the most satisfying way to play the game at this point, because they are always happy with what they get, just like RPers they make their own content.

Meanwhile I'm sitting here, watching XIV's gameplay become increasingly dogwater for 2 expansions now and questioning why on earth I ever invested this much time into a game that thinks we're all too stupid and we need the devs to reduce the game down to "our level".

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This tbh, content in FFXIV is literally the most boring thing ever, thank god for my friends,venues,glams,housing and meeting new people in cities, else I wouldnt be playing.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If you want a judgement from me however, here is one. I find it depressing that being a limsa chatter is probably the most satisfying way to play the game at this point, because they are always happy with what they get, just like RPers they make their own content.

Meanwhile I'm sitting here, watching XIV's gameplay become increasingly dogwater for 2 expansions now and questioning why on earth I ever invested this much time into a game that thinks we're all too stupid and we need the devs to reduce the game down to "our level".

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I appreciate your sincerity. I haven't been around long enough to doubt that the gameplay has been "dumbed down" but isn't savage still a thing and ultimates? If there is an argument by raiders/elite players or whatever they are called, that they would like MORE difficult content in the game for them, I think that is completely valid. I want this game to be large and healthy, even if a good chunk of that is folks doing content that I have zero interest in.

But those "depressed that others find joy chatting in Limssa and playing dressup" I just dont get that attitude. Do we think Yoshi P is going to stop developing hard content because they throw RPers a bone like dance floors, while most of the "RP stuff" is on the mog station? I just don't understand the need for animosity between the two communities. We should clamor for content that we can ALL enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I appreciate your sincerity. I haven't been around long enough to doubt that the gameplay has been "dumbed down" but isn't savage still a thing and ultimates? If there is an argument by raiders/elite players or whatever they are called, that they would like MORE difficult content in the game for them, I think that is completely valid. I want this game to be large and healthy, even if a good chunk of that is folks doing content that I have zero interest in.

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This isn't even about hard content for me, although the fact that everything below extreme is bafflingly easy plays a part in it. Gameplay is the simple act of playing your class/job, the content is actually irrelevant in this case because if I have fun playing my job then I'll have fun in even the most braindead of dungeons.
But no matter how difficult they make the savage "mechanics song and dance", I am still bored out of my mind spamming 1-2-3 once the initial process of learning mechanics is done and it's an optimistic estimate that it will even last throughout progress. Just because you make me run zigzag across the arena every 30 seconds it doesn't suddenly become engaging or satisfying.


They are still making difficult fights but those will never be able to last for 8 months between raid tiers, so even if I still enjoyed doing those fights it would never be able to stave off the boredom.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

But those "depressed that others find joy chatting in Limssa and playing dressup" I just dont get that attitude. Do we think Yoshi P is going to stop developing hard content because they throw RPers a bone like dance floors, while most of the "RP stuff" is on the mog station? I just don't understand the need for animosity between the two communities. We should clamor for content that we can ALL enjoy.

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Read it again, I find it depressing that sitting in limsa and chatting is probably more satisfying than actually playing the game's content. This isn't a criticism of the limsa chatters, it is a criticism of how bland doing anything else in the game has become.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

This isn't even about hard content for me. Gameplay is the simple act of playing your class/job, the content is actually irrelevant in this case because if I have fun playing my job then I'll have fun in even the most braindead of dungeons.
But no matter how difficult they make the savage "mechanics song and dance", I am still bored out of my mind spamming 1-2-3. Just because you make me run zigzag across the arena every 30 seconds it doesn't suddenly become engaging or satisfying.


Read it again, I find it depressing that sitting in limsa and chatting is probably more satisfying than actually playing the game's content. This isn't a criticism of the limsa chatters, it is a criticism of how bland doing anything else in the game has become.

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And even, both things - in theory - could co-exist peacefully.

They could amplify the job design, making them truly engaging with accessible skill floors and high skill ceilings, while still giving glamours, fluff items and features, because people interested on those can get them regardless if they play their BLM completely messed up or not - big portion of the game's rewards are gated behind casual content... In the 'hard to play' spectrum, what we get every even patch? Dyable armor sets, a savage weapon, an EX weapon, a savage mount and an EX mount. Everything else is accessible to the 'limsa chatters', and the investment to get them is not related to playing well a job, but grinding something. Heck, even farming latest dungeon sets for glam can be done peacefully with the Trusts, they even tell you how to do fight mechs.

They want to have more of the 'limsa chatters' attempting Savage raids, but if that's not the content they want to do, they won't do it regardless of how braindead the jobs become.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I appreciate your sincerity. I haven't been around long enough to doubt that the gameplay has been "dumbed down" but isn't savage still a thing and ultimates? If there is an argument by raiders/elite players or whatever they are called, that they would like MORE difficult content in the game for them, I think that is completely valid. I want this game to be large and healthy, even if a good chunk of that is folks doing content that I have zero interest in.

But those "depressed that others find joy chatting in Limssa and playing dressup" I just dont get that attitude. Do we think Yoshi P is going to stop developing hard content because they throw RPers a bone like dance floors, while most of the "RP stuff" is on the mog station? I just don't understand the need for animosity between the two communities. We should clamor for content that we can ALL enjoy.

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No no no, their point is that the BASIC gameplay experience of the game is so watered down compared to what we were used to, that's it's become kind of a mess even when you're willing to engage in the top tier combat suite. And even once you ARE there, the difficulty does not come inherent to the gameplay, but rather the DESIGN of the encounter. Some people just don't have the time or schedule for 1K pulls in TOP.

For a surface level example, after a certain skill threshold, due to the common denominator approach to job design, everything has become stale, because the core components of every job are now builder-spender-dump into 2 mins. If EVERY job, regardless of role does this, it breaks the diversity of the jobs at a core level.

So if your counter is to "Go do Savage and Ultimate" it doesn't actually address the problem, at all. Compare the difficulty of something like A12S or O4S to P8S. The relationship between JOB engagement and ENCOUNTER engagement is lopsided HEAVILY in the encounter's favor. But for those people who cannot memorize 8 individual permutations (limit cuts this tier, i guess Idfk) or deal with the honestly INSANE design of things like DSR P6 where you feel like the game is actively punishing you for not inserting the exact non-euclidian shape into it's corresponding slot, they are screwed. There's ironically a basement tier skill ceiling for many jobs, and an absolutely sky-high ceiling for encounter complexity. I'm not sure if I'm making exact sense here, but gameplay is not just the encounters. How you engage with content through action is meaningful in and of it self.

There's no MIDCORE content, in jobs or in encounters. Either you, your encounter, and your job are meaningless fluff with minimal skill expression, or you better be willing to enjoy your suffering if you were stupid enough to not play the game when we had incremental difficulty in both jobs and design.

I would rather do one task infinitely with a wide variety of interesting and unique tools, than an infinite amount of tasks with a spoon.

RPers are lucky, because at least they can make their own content. Raiders are beholden to whatever SE designs for them. It's also just easier for developers to make stuff for RPers than to design engaging combat from the player TO the enemy, rather than the enemy to the player.

Well, on that note it depends very much on what you mean by 'roleplayers'. A lot of the roleplayers who genuinely invested in the game's lore ended up being driven away between the sheer amount of people obsessed with ERP and the strange policing of anyone inclined to play anything even remotely antagonistic. Roleplay is about much more than attending 'venues' and it's telling that there's been all sorts of major server wide campaigns in WoW over the years but very little of the equivalent here in FFXIV.

FFXIV: the most popular it has ever been

Doomsayers for some reason: wIlL tHiS gAmE cOlLaPsE??

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Originally Posted by Metool42

FFXIV: the most popular it has ever been

Doomsayers for some reason: wIlL tHiS gAmE cOlLaPsE??

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Well to be fair success has caused things to collapse in the past.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Well, on that note it depends very much on what you mean by 'roleplayers'. A lot of the roleplayers who genuinely invested in the game's lore ended up being driven away between the sheer amount of people obsessed with ERP and the strange policing of anyone inclined to play anything even remotely antagonistic. Roleplay is about much more than attending 'venues' and it's telling that there's been all sorts of major server wide campaigns in WoW over the years but very little of the equivalent here in FFXIV.

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In XIV, at least to my experience, there's a lot of campaign based RP and stuff beyond the 'venue attending' but that's more in the FC (or standalone organized groups, more uncommonly) territory. It's only a bit time consuming to actually find the group that suits your roleplaying needs, but they're there.

Ironically, the best way to find those groups is actually going to venues and discovering people there. I tend to find more 'engaged RPers' casually enjoying those areas, and was precisely how I found all of my previous RPing FCs, all with their own unique campaigns that kept us busy for months.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

In XIV, at least to my experience, there's a lot of campaign based RP and stuff beyond the 'venue attending' but that's more in the FC (or standalone organized groups, more uncommonly) territory. It's only a bit time consuming to actually find the group that suits your roleplaying needs, but they're there.

Ironically, the best way to find those groups is actually going to venues and discovering people there. I tend to find more 'engaged RPers' casually enjoying those areas, and was precisely how I found all of my previous RPing FCs, all with their own unique campaigns that kept us busy for months.

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Nice to know it’s not too too hard to find. I’ve heard a lot of complaints about more casual RP like above is the dominant choice and wasn’t sure exactly how hard it would be to find more high fantasy oriented players

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Well to be fair success has caused things to collapse in the past.

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It's true and you can't be the most successful, most popular forever I mean just look at retail World of Warcraft

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Nice to know it’s not too too hard to find. I’ve heard a lot of complaints about more casual RP like above is the dominant choice and wasn’t sure exactly how hard it would be to find more high fantasy oriented players

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I don't know if, with cross realm transit, it matters anymore with server differences, but I'm on Mateus and there's a well diversified array of groups here.

I think another solid way is finding the FFXIV roleplaying Discord servers, because they have lists of open FCs and groups - they usually advertise with their own websites and you'll find what exactly they're about and the style of RPing - saying that because you'll find some filters about what they want/want not in their stories/characters.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

It's true and you can't be the most successful, most popular forever I mean just look at retail World of Warcraft

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The only thing that can defeat a game that gets that big is itself. FFXIV is def in that category. I think we’re all in agreement that a hard ban on 3rd party mods wouldn’t kill the game immediately but what percentage of the playerbase uses mods and how much of a dealbreaker it is for players is kinda the discussion point at this point in the the conversation.

I think they are in tune with just how many people do mod the game, and probably have run some sort of analytics to see potential losses were they to take that path.

But with recent events like Nintendo having to explain to its shareholders why it gave its employees a raise, I do t think SE is keen to take any avenues which risks revenue loss.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The only thing that can defeat a game that gets that big is itself. FFXIV is def in that category. I think we’re all in agreement that a hard ban on 3rd party mods wouldn’t kill the game immediately but what percentage of the playerbase uses mods and how much of a dealbreaker it is for players is kinda the discussion point at this point in the the conversation.

I think they are in tune with just how many people do mod the game, and probably have run some sort of analytics to see potential losses were they to take that path.

But with recent events like Nintendo having to explain to its shareholders why it gave its employees a raise, I do t think SE is keen to take any avenues which risks revenue loss.

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That's why I doubt they'll ever be like a anticheat that is all encompassing the game all the time. Now what I do assume as this game is like wow and that when you join a dungeon PVP or raid you're playing this content on a separate server then your actual world server (wow I know does this cuz at times you can see the world server crash but people in the raid would be fine). So I can see them adding an anticheat scan for when people enter these activity looking for third party addons when you join these servers. That's the only way I see them do it.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

That's why I doubt they'll ever be like a anticheat that is all encompassing the game all the time. Now what I do assume as this game is like wow and that when you join a dungeon PVP or raid you're playing this content on a separate server then your actual world server (wow I know does this cuz at times you can see the world server crash but people in the raid would be fine). So I can see them adding an anticheat scan for when people enter these activity looking for third party addons when you join these servers. That's the only way I see them do it.

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I’m pretty sure instanced content is already separate from the world servers since I’ve been dcd after the world servers while in an instance (ie servers going down for patch) as well as multiple times over the past couple tiers where the world servers are fine but the instance servers are laggy asf

Idk tho I’m not IT so I could be wrong

Edit; this also sounds like a very anti Raider solution, SE wouldn’t pick and choose they would go all in or nothing so idk if this would be an actual solution from them

This isn't a situation unique to XIV though, most MMOs if not all have third party tools that large portions of the players have become accustomed to. Some even design their content with third party tools being necessary, so this isn't just XIV having poor design or being some kind of strange lower quality outlier, if anything it's just part of the industry standard at this point and it would be exceptional for an MMO to not have any third party tools associated with it or the need for them in any capacity.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

That's why I doubt they'll ever be like a anticheat that is all encompassing the game all the time. Now what I do assume as this game is like wow and that when you join a dungeon PVP or raid you're playing this content on a separate server then your actual world server (wow I know does this cuz at times you can see the world server crash but people in the raid would be fine). So I can see them adding an anticheat scan for when people enter these activity looking for third party addons when you join these servers. That's the only way I see them do it.

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This game has instancing servers for duties and such. It's actually something that everyone not aware of beforehand became fully aware of during Stormblood with the infamous "Raubahn and Pippen EX" Where the instancing server queues were so overloaded people couldn't get into duties.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I’m pretty sure instanced content is already separate from the world servers since I’ve been dcd after the world servers while in an instance (ie servers going down for patch) as well as multiple times over the past couple tiers where the world servers are fine but the instance servers are laggy asf

Idk tho I’m not IT so I could be wrong

Edit; this also sounds like a very anti Raider solution, SE wouldn’t pick and choose they would go all in or nothing so idk if this would be an actual solution from them

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You are correct Instances are handled by separate servers and not the world servers.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Nice to know it’s not too too hard to find. I’ve heard a lot of complaints about more casual RP like above is the dominant choice and wasn’t sure exactly how hard it would be to find more high fantasy oriented players

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Most venues with actual roleplaying have moved off of PF and into Discords or other websites. It's hard to compete when your medieval tavern PF is sandwiched between 800 listings for the same pretend nightclub. I run one myself every Wednesday. We get a decent amount of regulars and have a great time each week but the crowd is nothing compared to the horde of bees knees zombies and ERPers at the "clubs."

I think there's definitely still an audience for real RP at more lore accurate venues, I see people hungry for exactly that come through every week, but unfortunately it is quite difficult for that sort of venue to get its name out these days. Also I think a lot of people interested in that kind of RP have looked at the sea of "EXODIA NIGHTCLUB OPEN /W DJ SP0T1FY COME JERK OFF TO OUR COURTS!!!!1" and just given up.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

It's not just mods. It's also the community created resources. Who will keep playing the game if all FF14 Discords disappeared suddenly? Almost no one is playing the game because of the game. They are playing it because of what the community has created. Just think of content like Baldesion Arsenal. Almost no one would ever do it if the Discord dies. Or Savage. No one would do it if there are no guides. We owe far more gratitude to the community than to the developers.

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You are mostly wrong - the community exists because people are playing the game, not the other way around.
But be that as it may - how is FFXIV different from any other MMO in this regard? Players use community-made information for all of them - and for plenty of single-player games as well.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

This isn't a situation unique to XIV though, most MMOs if not all have third party tools that large portions of the players have become accustomed to. Some even design their content with third party tools being necessary, so this isn't just XIV having poor design or being some kind of strange lower quality outlier, if anything it's just part of the industry standard at this point and it would be exceptional for an MMO to not have any third party tools associated with it or the need for them in any capacity.

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No not unique rare though, but usually companies that don't want 3rdparty have an anticheat to detect them, I know upcoming MMO Ashes of creation said they don't want third party add-ons but believe they also said they'll have anticheat from day one to ban users

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

No not unique rare though, but usually companies that don't want 3rdparty have an anticheat to detect them, I know upcoming MMO Ashes of creation said they don't want third party add-ons but believe they also said they'll have anticheat from day one to ban users

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Anti-cheat software often doesn't do anything more than cause issues on PCs or gunk up net traffic. They often don't disable third party mods, PSO2 has an anti-cheat on it and mods are still very much in use for it. SE also uses Denovo for it's anti-cheat software for the games they have released that do have it, and it seems particularly bad for PCs burning out SSDs because of it's excessively high read and write rate to the drive.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Anti-cheat software often doesn't do anything more than cause issues on PCs or gunk up net traffic. They often don't disable third party mods, PSO2 has an anti-cheat on it and mods are still very much in use for it. SE also uses Denovo for it's anti-cheat software for the games they have released that do have it, and it seems particularly bad for PCs burning out SSDs because of it's excessively high read and write rate to the drive.

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Lol Denovo was unconfirmed on that, and I don't put any stock in unconfirmed claims majority of time is people that don't take care of their stuff. It's like people were saying ff16 is burning up consoles but when they actually looked at it it was people that's consoles were not taken care of and didn't have room to breathe. Now I will agree any anticheat just creates a war, most are broken within the first 24 hours of release and then they got to update to stop what bypass them and then the modder is going to try to work around to find a new way to bypass and it's a never-ending cycle.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Anti-cheat software often doesn't do anything more than cause issues on PCs or gunk up net traffic. They often don't disable third party mods, PSO2 has an anti-cheat on it and mods are still very much in use for it. SE also uses Denovo for it's anti-cheat software for the games they have released that do have it, and it seems particularly bad for PCs burning out SSDs because of it's excessively high read and write rate to the drive.

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This is modder/cheater fearmongering. The only anticheat that had widespread issue that cant be chalked down to user error is vanguard. You are just scared they take your tittymods away. BTW Denuvo has been proven to have no system impact and all cases of denuvo performance impacts have been confirmed to be due to inhouse DRMS being used ontop. Also Denuvo, while they do work on an anti cheat iirc, is a DRM, not a anti cheat.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

To who do we owe our gratitude really? The community creators or the actual devs?

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Setting aside the needless black-and-white thinking you're proposing, here's an experiment you should try: uninstall FF14, and then tell me how much value you get out of the add-ons you've listed here.