The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

I miss ye olde MMO days where you had to read the quests to figure out what to do and markers were nonexistent.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

The game is about having fun and not about making it harder for players not to enjoy it. You already have options like Minium ILVL and for solo duties have option to play it very easy to very hard. You also have savage, EX, and ultimate duties. I don't see what your complaint is about normal content be too easy.

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Some players enjoy challenge and the problem with relegating it all to savage ex and ultimate is that 1) You don't get to actually fully utilize your job until max level and 2) it means the new player experience of doing 100+ hours of MSQ is an absolute slog for such players.

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You also have savage, EX, and ultimate duties.

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...that these so called competent players cant clear without a load of 3rd party programs. Yet they prate about others lack of skill levels.

Pot, kettle, over.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Some players enjoy challenge and the problem with relegating it all to savage ex and ultimate is that 1) You don't get to actually fully utilize your job until max level and 2) it means the new player experience of doing 100+ hours of MSQ is an absolute slog for such players.

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It's almost as if we have 4 sets of extremes and savage content outside of the most current expansion that can be done while going through the story. Maybe the real problem is the extreme focus (from new players) on only the highest level difficult content.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

...that these so called competent players cant clear without a load of 3rd party programs. Yet they prate about others lack of skill levels.

Pot, kettle, over.

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You do realize that the mod that people were freaking out over was one that lets you zoom out the camera more right? You know there aren't mods that can solve mechanics for you right? I reckon more people use mods to see their character naked then anything else.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

You do realize that the mod that people were freaking out over was one that lets you zoom out the camera more right? You know there aren't mods that can solve mechanics for you right? I reckon more people use mods to see their character naked then anything else.

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Dont need mods at all. Dont need any of them. Game can be cleared w/out them, has been done and tested that way, as per YoshiP. Non issue. Mods arent needed.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Some players enjoy challenge and the problem with relegating it all to savage ex and ultimate is that 1) You don't get to actually fully utilize your job until max level and 2) it means the new player experience of doing 100+ hours of MSQ is an absolute slog for such players.

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You do know that the MSQ solo instances have a very hard setting?

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I reckon more people use mods to see their character naked then anything else.

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Can do that with Emperor's New gear just as easily. No mods needed. Also, those specific mods are a can of worms you do NOT want to open.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's almost as if we have 4 sets of extremes and savage content outside of the most current expansion that can be done while going through the story. Maybe the real problem is the extreme focus (from new players) on only the highest level difficult content.

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I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that literally every feature in the game is locked behind doing the MSQ. As compared to most other MMOs that let you do max level content the moment you hit max level. And lets not forget that low level job kits are generally a train wreck.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

You do realize that the mod that people were freaking out over was one that lets you zoom out the camera more right? You know there aren't mods that can solve mechanics for you right? I reckon more people use mods to see their character naked then anything else.

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Pretty sure they were also using one that displayed where AOEs would hit. And thats just ones we saw.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Pretty sure they were also using one that displayed where AOEs would hit. And thats just ones we saw.

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Not the same team.
What does it have to do with the difficulty of casual content by the way?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Not the same team.
What does it have to do with the difficulty of casual content by the way?

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Absolutely nothing. But if one team was using it likely others were too. And if harder content is what people want, why do they find shortcuts to make it easier?


Note, I'm not saying no to harder casual content. I've long stated that alliance raids should be locked to the highest ilvl of the patch they released in.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Not the same team.
What does it have to do with the difficulty of casual content by the way?

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Simple: we have here a thread commenting on "competence" of players, by people who clamoured for "hard challenging content"..and were then shown to not be able to clear it without a load of TOS forbidden 3rd party programs. Maybe they ought to be looking at their own skill..or lack thereof..if they cant clear that content without addons.

People in glass houses......

Ill be blunt

If they cant or wont clear savage or ex or ultimate without addons, if they cant or wont clear said content on a vanilla UI, then they have no business criticising anyone's skill..especially when others arent using forbidden addons to play the game for them.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Not the same team.
What does it have to do with the difficulty of casual content by the way?

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Strawman arguments is all they know how to do, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Strawman arguments is all they know how to do, sadly.

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You were the one who brought up how the mods being used couldn't solve mechanics, which is wrong.


I honestly wonder how the "best" WF teams would do if they had to play on consoles lol.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Absolutely nothing. But if one team was using it likely others were too. And if harder content is what people want, why do they find shortcuts to make it easier?


Note, I'm not saying no to harder casual content. I've long stated that alliance raids should be locked to the highest ilvl of the patch they released in.

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Oh, so yet another disingenuous crap by the usual suspects. I swear this controversy really made everyone stupider.

They cheated to win the World Race, not because the content was too hard for them. I'm pretty sure you didn't need me to tell you that, you just chose the road of bad faith yet again.

Nevermind that multiple teams cleared on stream without the use of any cheats, gotta demonize the entire raid community with that garbage for easy points.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Oh, so yet another disingenuous crap by the usual suspects. I swear this controversy really made everyone stupider.

They cheated to win the World Race, not because the content was too hard for them.

Nevermind that multiple teams cleared on stream without the use of any cheats, gotta demonize the entire raid community with that garbage for easy points.

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I'm literally part of the raid community.... I've been raiding since Binding Coil lmao.


Cheats can be hidden on stream. Easily. I'm not claiming every hardcore raider cheats. I know they all don't. But we also know that things a minority does will affect us all. See waymarks and no longer being able to place them. That was how my group cleared T9 back in the day, by me being able to manually place waymarks for Divebombs.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

You know there aren't mods that can solve mechanics for you right?.

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Yes. Yes there are. There are mods that show you the safe spots on the floor. A little research and it’s not hard at all to find evidence of this.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Why do people assume that people will quit the game after 1 try?
People have all the time in the world to complete it

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They'd try more than once, obviously.

Because a significant proportion of the casual playerbase are there to enjoy another FF story, and while they might have a dabble in high end content, they are not there to be high end raiders.

These are two completely different playerbases with different expectations.

Story content being tuned towards casual players, thus being generally easy with the occasional challenging battle is about right.

The game then has no shortage of hard content for more skilled players. Extemes from ARR to EW, Savage from HW to EW, Ultimates, Palace of the Dead, Heaven on High, Eureka, Unreal and Criterion,a heck some of the normal raids are pretty tough.

We have content for both playerbases and I think thats fine. Although, more content - be it casual, midcore or hardcore, will never go amiss.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

The game then has no shortage of hard content for more skilled players.

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Four bosses every eight months counts as "no shortage"? For people who are only interested in ultimates, one boss per year on average counts as "no shortage"? You're drastically overestimating the amount of content available in this game.

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Originally Posted by Rhael

Four bosses every eight months counts as "no shortage"? For people who are only interested in ultimates, one boss per year on average counts as "no shortage"? You're drastically overestimating the amount of content available in this game.

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I mean, you don't just do the Ultimate, do you? Think it also needs the Savage tier completed.

Normal content should be easy! but would be nice to have a middel ground to harder content (there is a huge gap between them).
Many have a life outside the game and can not spend 8hrs on a game everyday!

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Yeah, how about not. I already hate having to do low tier content with randoms. The average player isn't going to get better. They will remain at their current level, and it will rapidly become everyone else's problem. The game has gradually upped the difficulty of even basic stuff over the years, and thus far there is zero sign of your average player in any way stepping it up.

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are you for real? cant think for even 1 sec o something so easy?
if the MSQ at no point make people be better they will not, if it will people will have to.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

are you for real? cant think for even 1 sec o something so easy?
if the MSQ at no point make people be better they will not, if it will people will have to.

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No they are just going to spend their money elsewhere. They pay to have fun not to "work hard".

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Normal content should be easy! but would be nice to have a middel ground to harder content (there is a huge gap between them).
Many have a life outside the game and can not spend 8hrs on a game everyday!

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The middle ground exists. People just like to say it doesn't coz reasons.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Normal content should be easy! but would be nice to have a middel ground to harder content (there is a huge gap between them).
Many have a life outside the game and can not spend 8hrs on a game everyday!

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Normal content should be normal. What we have right now is baby mode until you reach current content. If anything SE should at least decrease the ilvl cap for every encounter. Rule of thumb, if you can stand in any AoE without needing a healer you need to lower the ilvl cap. Healers are allowed to have fun, too.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The middle ground exists. People just like to say it doesn't coz reasons.

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EX trials (which I have to imagine are what you speak of) are not a middle ground. They range from completely brain dead to making savages seem like a vacation, with very few falling between these two options. Criterion on the other hand is just absolutely worthless by default, and no one should even waste the time with it until they give it some kind of proper reward structure.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

EX trials (which I have to imagine are what you speak of) are not a middle ground. They range from completely brain dead to making savages seem like a vacation, with very few falling between these two options. Criterion on the other hand is just absolutely worthless by default, and no one should even waste the time with it until they give it some kind of proper reward structure.

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That's why they're midcore content. Because they're having to span the ranges between MSQ difficulty and Savage difficulty. It's why some EXs like EX1 are about as easy as a MSQ trial, and others like EX4 are nearing savage difficulty.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That's why they're midcore content. Because they're having to span the ranges between MSQ difficulty and Savage difficulty. It's why some EXs like EX1 are about as easy as a MSQ trial, and others like EX4 are nearing savage difficulty.

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And yet the majority of players doing EX trials, regardless of where on the scale they fall, are still incapable of doing the mechanics. Therein lies the problem. What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

Unfortunately, the ones that suck are probably gonna continue sucking because they have no incentive to move beyond their comfort zones and thereby improve themselves. They just kinda exist in a vacuum where every other roulette queue and party finder group is an absolutely miserable experience for the people being subjected to them. I'm sure people are going to say I'm being too harsh, and in truth I probably am a little bit, but I think we can all agree there really is a community skill issue at play here. A bad one.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

EX trials (which I have to imagine are what you speak of) are not a middle ground. They range from completely brain dead to making savages seem like a vacation, with very few falling between these two options. Criterion on the other hand is just absolutely worthless by default, and no one should even waste the time with it until they give it some kind of proper reward structure.

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You claim they range, so there IS a middle ground. :rolleyes: This conversation gets to be so damned ridiculous. Just because you're of that opinion does not mean the middle ground doesn't exist. Even seasoned pros will occasionally run into stuff that takes some time to register. So what if some are easier than others, it's still that part of the game where you have to start paying attention to things like mechs and gear. Prior to that, you're supposed to be learning how to do mechs from the dungeon content.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You claim they range, so there IS a middle ground. :rolleyes: This conversation gets to be so damned ridiculous. Just because you're of that opinion does not mean the middle ground doesn't exist. Even seasoned pros will occasionally run into stuff that takes some time to register. So what if some are easier than others, it's still that part of the game where you have to start paying attention to things like mechs and gear. Prior to that, you're supposed to be learning how to do mechs from the dungeon content.

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What I am claiming is that very little content falls into the middle ground between brain dead and savage. EX trials are generally either on roughly par with MSQ, in which case it definitely doesn't qualify, or dancing well across the line of what makes a savage savage, in which case it's well above what one would typically consider midcore. Very few EX trials fall into a middle ground between the two. In other words, if people want true midcore content, their options are limited to a select few trials that do meet their criteria.

When people request midcore content, they are generally not asking for a sliding scale. They are typically asking for content that firmly and consistently lands at some ill-defined mid-point between normals and savage. They are asking to be able to engage with content without having to hope in any given patch that SE introduces an EX trial that falls into the "sweet spot," so to speak.

Now, realistically, these people are never going to get what they want. That would require the development team to be spread even thinner than they already are, not to mention the allocation of even more resources. They should probably just learn to live with the few EX trials that fall within their preferred range.

With the amount of low damage from story mode, it sometimes feels very lackluster. I honestly rather they had another category for simplistic mechanics that aren't too complicated to understand, but with higher damage than story content in terms of frequency of attacks + higher damage auto attacks, and make that the "middle ground" mode.
Recovery in the "middle ground" mode would still be more doable since there are less difficulties in resolving mechanics. Something akin to deep dungeons higher floor bosses but with more mechanics and tuned for 4 / 8 players. Criterion bosses is a bit too far into Extreme with the mechanical burden it places on players, and having something that's slightly below that would be a good middle ground for players who don't exactly like the high mechanic gameplay, but still want something tougher than the average boss that tickles like a wet noodle outside of its mechanics.

Then Extreme and Savage fights would be the higher mechanical difficulty fights instead.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Normal content should be easy! but would be nice to have a middel ground to harder content (there is a huge gap between them).
Many have a life outside the game and can not spend 8hrs on a game everyday!

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This. COVID and WFH only made it even more glaring too since people with cushier jobs got hours and hours of extra play time, while essential workers who still had to go to work basically got pushed out of the community for being "inexperienced."

We're at this point where apparently even dedicating what time you have often isn't enough. No, you're expected to put in more "minning" in RL too, such as ditching other games and hobbies so that you can put your everything into raiding. Not good. I thought we'd gotten away from that after the Old Hardcore Era faded?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The middle ground exists. People just like to say it doesn't coz reasons.

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The reasons are relevant, especially when one of them (both WoW and XIV being guilty) is that the default community approach ends up being "okay, it's middle ground content, best practice is to fill the group with high tier players and steamroll it like baby content" which means that actual middle ground players it's meant for still struggle for niche.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Normal content should be normal. What we have right now is baby mode until you reach current content. If anything SE should at least decrease the ilvl cap for every encounter. Rule of thumb, if you can stand in any AoE without needing a healer you need to lower the ilvl cap. Healers are allowed to have fun, too.

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You'll need more than that. I'm not actually sure this is solvable within XIV's constraints.

Healers still won't be able to "have fun" outside of baby mode, because the punishment debuffs make the natural "welp, he zigged when he shoulda zagged let me patch that up" flow impossible (especially now that Damage Down has had to come into play in a game that relies HEAVILY on time limits to provide challenge).

Without the punishment debuffs, however, DPS would (again largely because of said time limits) likely just try to stand in fire as much as possible to optimize output, which is also not exactly fun for the healer ...

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Criterion on the other hand is just absolutely worthless by default, and no one should even waste the time with it until they give it some kind of proper reward structure.

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Sad cynical thought: I've been beginning to get the thought there is a very real possibility that cooperative multiplayer (outside of its competitive aspect) was an experiment with a finite lifespan. The goals of long term replayability (which you need in order to supply enough team mates for the newcomers) and a reasonable rewards system seem to increasingly pull at each other to the point of tearing the whole thing apart.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

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Eh. It doesn't suck as bad as people say, IMO. This one lies on SE's shoulders: when so much content is designed so that just 1 out of 8 people who doesn't get it means the whole endeavor is moot despite the efforts of the others, you're easily going to feel like more people are bad than actually are. (I ran the math at one point. Assuming 8 people selected randomly, it takes surprisingly little of the overall pool to fall into the "potato" category to make it odds on that at least one of the eight will be: less than 10%, in fact. So the vast majority of the players can actually be gud and it will still easily feel otherwise, especially with the limited filtering PF allows)

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

And yet the majority of players doing EX trials, regardless of where on the scale they fall, are still incapable of doing the mechanics. Therein lies the problem. What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

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I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

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Using Barb EX prior to her instance getting access to the Echo, which to date is the hardest content I've cleared; I failed to clear many, many times despite joining groups who "know the fight", or "have seen enrage". The first time I cleared it, it was a practice party with the comment, "lesgoooo!" It took five pulls, and we got closer each time: 6%, 3%, 2%, even wiped at <1%. But we knew we had it, and when we did clear it, she didn't even start casting Maelstrom. Totally owned the B**.

The point here is quality of players does not dictate where along the difficulty scale the content lies. What it does determine is their ability to coordinate and work together as a team to get the job done. A group comprised of skilled and high quality players will make difficult content look a lot easier than it actually is, and the reverse is also true. Guides also work in this manner. When I listen to a guide from mizztech, I'm thinking, "Damn, look rough." When I listen to guide of the same instance from Hecterson I'm thinking, "Totally doable. Let's do this!" Does this change the actual difficulty and the hands on learning process for the duty? Nope, not one lick.

The players that suck or going to continue sucking because of attitudes like what you're expressing. It expresses a complete inability to work with your team, and that might clue you in on why you experience so many players unable to do mechanics.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

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I dunno, man. I just stay and try to be positive/help them improve. Maybe not 90 minutes but definitely more than 3 tries. That's barely a warm-up. lol I guess Miyazaki is to blame. These days, if I start a PF I always include 'expect wipes, no salt' and people are usually really nice and we discuss strategies. Of course it doesn't work all the time, though.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I dunno, man. I just stay and try to be positive/help them improve. Maybe not 90 minutes but definitely more than 3 tries. That's barely a warm-up. lol I guess Miyazaki is to blame. These days, if I start a PF I always include 'expect wipes, no salt' and people are usually really nice and we discuss strategies. Of course it doesn't work all the time, though.

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I have issues when it says farm party, as that leads to certain expectations. If it says "clear for 1, then maybe farm", or "getting the rust off", my expectations are not that high. But do not post a farm party if you, the PL, do not know how to do the fight.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I have issues when it says farm party, as that leads to certain expectations. If it says "clear for 1, then maybe farm", or "getting the rust off", my expectations are not that high. But do not post a farm party if you, the PL, do not know how to do the fight.

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Don't get me started on that! :rolleyes: :D

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Originally Posted by Jin-

In before the white knights come to tell a tale how they had a one wipe this year and for that reason the story should be easier

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Instead I'll just point out that things HAVE gotten consistently more difficult as time goes on. Compare any ARR trial at ilvl to the ones we've gotten in EW like Barb and it's a night and day difference. It's a slow and steady increase that HAS brought out more better players over time. People just tend to remember many of the bad players they encounter but I'd bet my account all of them have met far more good than bad.

What OP is asking for at the end already happens. I say instead of complaining about something like this take the time to try and build your fellow WoLs up to be better. And I don't want to hear that BS excuse about getting in trouble. I've been a mentor for years and have yet to run into that issue. You want players to be better? Contribute to it yourself

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Lots of things

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I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

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That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

...

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You can certainly say teamwork is a ... ahem ... skill.

I have seen high-end team fail, just like I have seen low end team get through content through grit. But ... I also see the opposite. I agree with whoever said ealier that the game already have mid-level content, some just don't want to admit it 'cause it doesn't fit their narrative.

Even without putting label on thing, there are clearly different tier of content:

- MSQ and solo instance = face rolling.
- Expert dungeon = just know how to press button.
- Normal trial/raid = need to know mechanic.
- EX trial = please know the mechanic and decent with your class.
- Savage = know what to do and be damn good at doing it.
- Ultimate = so far up there most don't even think about trying.

So the game offer plenty of step in the scaffolding process, and the mid-core content certainly have a few places to fit into, regardless of someone think it does in their own definition.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

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All I know is they wouldn't be doing that if people were still locked to parties only on their server. It's the sort of thing that can get you blacklisted quickly.