Stricter requirements for Mentors.

Thread starter is right ... in the title of the thread.
Now all the ideas in her post are trash, because the actual skills that you need as a mentor are what a kindergarten teacher or customer service operator need: immense patience, empathy and ability to tolerate inane questions forever as endless stream of clueless new players join in (who are not guilty of anything but being curious about the game itself).
But those cannot be measured ingame so like, whatever right? But savage clears are not going to help you a lot when the 100 000th sprout asks you where [a setting option] was in the menu.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Thread starter is right ... in the title of the thread.
Now all the ideas in her post are trash, because the actual skills that you need as a mentor are what a kindergarten teacher or customer service operator need: immense patience, empathy and ability to tolerate inane questions forever as endless stream of clueless new players join in (who are not guilty of anything but being curious about the game itself).
But those cannot be measured ingame so like, whatever right? But savage clears are not going to help you a lot when the 100 000th sprout asks you where [a setting option] was in the menu.

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We demonstrate that we pass, by dealing with topics like this, without going on rampages.

These topics are the "you rage, you lose" of mentor interactions.

Seriously, yes, there's going to be some people who mentor because they want the crown, or the mount, or the implied status (what implied status, most people view us negitively), but trying to paint everybody who helps with those descriptions is, well, insulting.

These topics are just huge insults to anybody who helps because they want to help.

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Originally Posted by hagare

why is that fun sus xD

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Thats exactly it, lmao. Terrorizing NA PFs

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Thats exactly it, lmao. Terrorizing NA PFs

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NA doesn't need help terrorizing themselves xD

Even if we could create some stricter guidelines for mentors would would actually work, I'm not sure the NN would survive in some servers.

The amount of mentors that actually hangout in the NN and attempt to help sprouts is already really low.

I wrote up a hypothetical mentor system re-work for a thread literally two years ago, and honestly it somehow still pretty much encompasses every recommendation/suggestion I'd make in a thread like this...

Speaking of
https://i.imgur.io/CNNXcGI_d.webp?ma...idelity=medium

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I wrote up a hypothetical mentor system re-work for a thread literally two years ago, and honestly it somehow still pretty much encompasses every recommendation/suggestion I'd make in a thread like this...

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This is a much more thought out system, i like the idea of 'good at X role' commendations, and would allow for a more specific mentor type per role.

PvP Mentor would obviously only come from PVP commendations.

This way you have the 'Social', 'Crafter, 'PvP' and 'Role' mentors.

Role mentors specifically would be good for Healer, Tank and DPS, but arguably would require at least a proving grounds activity to show you are competent enough to actually be a mentor for your role.

The separate tiers of 'Junior Mentor, Mentor and Senior Mentor' would also be a good system, where you are upvoted/downvoted at the end of mentor roulette depending on how players perceive your ability to Mentor.
I would personally prefer the tiers to be separated into 'Bronze, Silver and Gold' mentor symbols so its easily distinguishable.

Once you receive a # of negative votes, you lose your mentor status and are unable to re-obtain it for a month.
This will obviously be trolled on by people, but the # of upvotes will be much higher than the # of trolls downvoting if you are actually doing what you sign up for.

Overall i like this system you came up with, although i still think 300 commendations is far too little.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This is a much more thought out system, i like the idea of 'good at X role' commendations, and would allow for a more specific mentor type per role.

PvP Mentor would obviously only come from PVP commendations.

This way you have the 'Social', 'Crafter, 'PvP' and 'Role' mentors.

Role mentors specifically would be good for Healer, Tank and DPS, but arguably would require at least a proving grounds activity to show you are competent enough to actually be a mentor for your role.

The separate tiers of 'Junior Mentor, Mentor and Senior Mentor' would also be a good system, where you are upvoted/downvoted at the end of mentor roulette depending on how players perceive your ability to Mentor.
I would personally prefer the tiers to be separated into 'Bronze, Silver and Gold' mentor symbols so its easily distinguishable.

Once you receive a # of negative votes, you lose your mentor status and are unable to re-obtain it for a month.
This will obviously be trolled on by people, but the # of upvotes will be much higher than the # of trolls downvoting if you are actually doing what you sign up for.

Overall i like this system you came up with, although i still think 300 commendations is far too little.

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- Doubt we'd ever get a negative comm system (or anything that puts the player in a position of being bullied or shamed) since Square can't even tolerate making a harasser/stalker upset so we can get a good enough blacklist system. I also don't think it's very wise to assume what the playerbase will do with a tool like that, I wouldn't put it past people to negative comm others based off a dislike of their name, Adventurer Plate or glamour choices.

- Why would we want to add more roles and more ways for people to be a mentor if the issue is too many people only becoming a mentor for the perks? Proving your skills doesn't mean you're going to become an amazing mentor who wants to help and be there for the right reasons. You could be #1 in all of NA and still be an absolute trash person who's only in it for the flex.

You ultimately need people who are well versed in the game and also want to be a mentor because of exactly what that means: to help people and guide newbies on their way. Let's worry about figuring out a way to determine if someone is both rather than fixating on skill level/# of comms alone.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I wrote up a hypothetical mentor system re-work for a thread literally two years ago, and honestly it somehow still pretty much encompasses every recommendation/suggestion I'd make in a thread like this...

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Frankly I prefer this sort of 'specialized' mentor roles. Imo the currently present system is just way too broad.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

[…]Once you receive a # of negative votes, you lose your mentor status and are unable to re-obtain it for a month.
This will obviously be trolled on by people, but the # of upvotes will be much higher than the # of trolls downvoting if you are actually doing what you sign up for.

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The potential issue with negative comms is how do you prevent this?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Frankly I prefer this sort of 'specialized' mentor roles. Imo the currently present system is just way too broad.



The potential issue with negative comms is how do you prevent this?

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Honestly don't think it would be much of an issue.

The worst you can get is a group of 7 people bombing you at once.

7 negatives out of 100 isn't going to demote you.

Players that are actively helping would get more positive than negative votes over time, and if a single negative vote is going to upset a mentor, then they most likely don't have the patience to use the system to begin with

The other option is quite simple, Dont have negative commendations and have 'has left instances before completion x times as a 'insert role' mentor' as the demotion point.
This way the mentors that actively dodge in mentor roulette would be punished and the others would be rewarded.

Actually like the idea of 'you have left 5 instances before completion in mentor roulette this week, you have been demoted and your mentor status revoked'

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Honestly don't think it would be much of an issue.

The worst you can get is a group of 7 people bombing you at once.

7 negatives out of 100 isn't going to demote you.

Players that are actively helping would get more positive than negative votes over time, and if a single negative vote is going to upset a mentor, then they most likely don't have the patience to use the system to begin with

The other option is quite simple, Dont have negative commendations and have 'has left instances before completion x times as a 'insert role' mentor' as the demotion point.
This way the mentors that actively dodge in mentor roulette would be punished and the others would be rewarded.

Actually like the idea of 'you have left 5 instances before completion in mentor roulette this week, you have been demoted and your mentor status revoked'

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Personally I'm for the latter as the demotion point, however it will need to be able to distinguish when one is intentionally leaving and internet/game related crashes that leave one unable to log back in (usually leading to removal from the party). Depending on how you look at it, both could be considered leaving an instance before completion and it's not necessarily fair to punish legit issues with a penalty.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Personally I'm for the latter as the demotion point, however it will need to be able to distinguish when one is intentionally leaving and internet/game related crashes that leave one unable to log back in (usually leading to removal from the party). Depending on how you look at it, both could be considered leaving an instance before completion and it's not necessarily fair to punish legit issues with a penalty.

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Stuff like this has to be reviewed on a case by case basis pretty much. One instance isnt enough but by the pattern forming if it happens multiple times you can usually make strong cases either way.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Personally I'm for the latter as the demotion point, however it will need to be able to distinguish when one is intentionally leaving and internet/game related crashes that leave one unable to log back in (usually leading to removal from the party). Depending on how you look at it, both could be considered leaving an instance before completion and it's not necessarily fair to punish legit issues with a penalty.

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Seriously if Dixie's idea was implemented all a mentor would have to do to circumvent the system is Alt-F4

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Seriously if Dixie's idea was implemented all a mentor would have to do to circumvent the system is Alt-F4

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From the prohibited activities:

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Intentional leaving or disconnection
Refers to the act of obstructing another person's gameplay by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server.
Key Points
Since the game relies on internet connectivity, it is inevitable that there will be network disconnections or real-life circumstances which prevent you from playing the game. As such, simply disconnecting or remaining inactive in the game will not result in a penalty.

However, if a report is filed, a penalty will be issued if the following types of situations are confirmed to be occurring repeatedly:

Occurs right after entering a duty
Occurs when progress is not going well in a duty
Occurs when the team is about to be defeated in PvP
Even if there was no intention to interfere with others, repeated occurrences can be a nuisance to others. If you are experiencing network instability, or if you are frequently unable to play due to real-world circumstances, be considerate of others by refraining from participating in the duty/content, taking into account that you may unintentionally cause issues for others.

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed if the act was confirmed publicly through online video, streaming services, or other means.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Personally I'm for the latter as the demotion point, however it will need to be able to distinguish when one is intentionally leaving and internet/game related crashes that leave one unable to log back in (usually leading to removal from the party). Depending on how you look at it, both could be considered leaving an instance before completion and it's not necessarily fair to punish legit issues with a penalty.

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You punish all disconnects the same with a scaling penalty, like other games do. Regardless of whatever the person abandoning may say, even if it's totally legit and never happened before, it still screws over everyone else in the group when 1 person abandons and they have to get a fill.
"Legit" reasons can be faked as well from purposely causing packet loss, pulling the plug on your router, Alt-F4ing the game. You can't catch all the tricks so you just give a slap on the wrist for the first few offenses and then trust that the people with a high number of issues just won't queue up for that.
If you have severe internet issues, you shouldn't be doing content that relies on you to be there for other people then. Mentor queue dumps you into content that is underpopulated on purpose so getting a fill is a huge pain in the ass if one of them disconnects.

We don't need conditions or rewards just give people the option to sign up for mentor like in 11 and get an M symbol. Also create a world chat instead of NN and then anybody can answer anyone's questions.

Here is a quick, simple yet effective way to fix mentor:

remove the crown icon. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

We don't need conditions or rewards just give people the option to sign up for mentor like in 11 and get an M symbol. Also create a world chat instead of NN and then anybody can answer anyone's questions.

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you actually think world chat would be better than NN.
Oh my sweet summer child

Actually, after further consideration, I believe that clearing ultimate should be a requirement for the crafting mentor as well.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

The other option is quite simple, Dont have negative commendations and have 'has left instances before completion x times as a 'insert role' mentor' as the demotion point.
This way the mentors that actively dodge in mentor roulette would be punished and the others would be rewarded.

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If only 10% of instances are the 'anoying' duties. this wont do a thing. After a single dodge, the chance to again face the same is 10%. Odds that are still worth leaving for them.

Instead they should make the reward progress reduce significantly upon leaving. If that is for example -5. Then it takes them 5 roulletes to be equal again. Even if its 5 easy duties, thats usualy still 100-120 minutes spent gaining absolutely nothing. The 30min leave penalty wont harm them as they can just spend that time gathering or crafting and make gil that way. Which for them might simply just be worth it as its less anoying.

Reducing that to -1 after half an hour also makes the waiting time for that anoying duty less. As those 30 minutes still save 50 (80-30) minutes then compared to instantly leaving. Taking time away this method is a harsh enough punishment as there is simply just no gain on the rewards. And maybe upon failure after 60mins, you get a permission to leave once and not get a set back to avoid this happening too often? Just to at least give a certain reward for trying.

And note, the -5 here can be tracking something to unlock, or simply hold back the roulette rewards for 5 duties. And not reset weekly either. It might mean they will never join the roulette again because of it (hey, the punishment worked! we got rid of someone that doesnt want to mentor at all), or they will be anoyed.

And yes, this will hurt the one that might have a sudden interuption here. But i think that if players face these too often anyway, that its again their own personal issue. The game is allowed to be harsh here. You queue, and therefor you say you are willing to spend this potential 90min when facing a very anoying duty.

Removing mentor status entirely is either a permanent (and therefor harsh) penalty, or a temporary one (which some people might not care about). And could punish the one that are bad/unlucky at planning too much (yes, parents playing games is a thing, and these things can in some cases end up very quickly several days in a row). Simply making their progress go backward is enough of a penalty, as that way they can at least restore the situation. Too many setbacks will prevent them from queueing anyway until they know its safe enough again.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

We don't need conditions or rewards just give people the option to sign up for mentor like in 11 and get an M symbol. Also create a world chat instead of NN and then anybody can answer anyone's questions.

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I don't need another channel I have to avoid Gil sellers and club advertisers.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

I wouldn't put it past people to negative comm others based off a dislike of their name, Adventurer Plate or glamour choices.

- Why would we want to add more roles and more ways for people to be a mentor if the issue is too many people only becoming a mentor for the perks? Proving your skills doesn't mean you're going to become an amazing mentor who wants to help and be there for the right reasons. You could be #1 in all of NA and still be an absolute trash person who's only in it for the flex.

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I came from a game with a somewhat toxic reputation where the report tool was fast, easy to use and handed out automated bans. The knowledge that you could get players silenced, suspended & banned was so great that people would report others for anything they felt like and I did it too. You can list a million things you could report someone for but it all boils down to being at the wrong place at the wrong time. There's a few mentors I see in our NN who are a bit grating and I can ignore them easily enough but you give me a tool to vote negatively on them being a mentor while playing on another character/account? Well. I hope my willpower to do the right thing would overcome my biases but can't say the same about everyone, especially when it's easy enough to get a little flock of mentors by queueing multiple extremes in DF.
XIV's systems are fairly positive interaction focused and that's good, takes a bit of the grating toxicity and rage you see in other games away and instead we get what people refer to as "toxic casualism" etc and the GCBTW meme but I'd take that over the alternative.

You put a negative comm system in the game and oh baby are you going to see people have fun with it. Especially with the proposed ability to have mentorship removed for a time period. Look at this thread, look at the way people view mentors and clown on them, that raw reputation & dislike and give them a tool where they can vote negatively and exploit the games own systems to disrupt people?
Well why not.

2nd half of your post is pretty solid too.

Just remove the Extreme Trials from the Mentor Roulette, and this issue is resolved. No one actively queues in like "I can't wait to spend a lockout teaching 7 other grossly unprepared sprouts to do fights with complicated mechanics and actual DPS checks"

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Just remove the Extreme Trials from the Mentor Roulette, and this issue is resolved. No one actively queues in like "I can't wait to spend a lockout teaching 7 other grossly unprepared sprouts to do fights with complicated mechanics and actual DPS checks"

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Yeah. Some extremes are probably doable like this, but a significant portion of them are not ideal for the DF. Adding them to the Mentor roulette was just asking for a headache, in my opinion.

I can see what the aim is, but it's pointless.

The purpose of the mentor system and mentors, in general, is to provide fundamental support to players and to answer basic questions regarding the game.

By the time players have reached Level 90, arguably even 80, they should be beyond the need for support.

The biggest issue with the mentor system is people's lack of desire to be actually useful and mentor properly, and I will preface this point by saying a knowledgeable peer does not always make for a good mentor or teacher.

Edit: If anything, and if it should go so far that a player's competence should be tested, then it should be on a hall of the advanced type system. Something that aims to test their individual competence, and ideally only at a fundamental level - e.g., Level 60 in sync'd, yet fairly rigorous duty.

Specific mentor types might be a good idea.

For basic story dungeon and trial runs you could use the normal mentor tag.

Then for somthing like an extreme or savage you could have a raid mentor type for people who want someone to help them in that kind of content.

Finally you could have a crafting mentor someone whos an omnicrafter.

The biggest hurtle for the normal and raid mentors though is having a gauge of weather or not someone understands the mechanics of each dungeon. Code wise the only way i can think they would do that is have specific variables that sais whether or not the player is hit by a bosses attack or a special effect (like the crystals light in the darkhold) to try to read if the player knows what there doing or not but that doesnt take into the factor that the player could just be following another player who does know the mechanics. Hm...

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Just remove the Extreme Trials from the Mentor Roulette, and this issue is resolved. No one actively queues in like "I can't wait to spend a lockout teaching 7 other grossly unprepared sprouts to do fights with complicated mechanics and actual DPS checks"

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What do you mean you don’t plan on spending over an hour crying in Thordan extreme especially if you are EU and half the people can’t even understand a word you’re saying?
Mentor bad for not finishing the entire fight yourself, git gud or crown off.

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Originally Posted by hagare

you actually think world chat would be better than NN.
Oh my sweet summer child

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I mean, I'm pretty sure the whole reason Novice Network is restricted is because if you have a world chat, the gil spammers who currently stand in the starting cities and shout their RMT advertisements would do so on the world chat instead. Sure, you could ban them... and they'd immediately just make another free trial account that wasn't banned and resume.

Any time you want to know where a free trial restriction comes from -- can't use the marketboard, can't send /tell, can't start a party or create a party finder, etc. -- you really only need look at the gil spammers/RMT folks for the answer. By requiring them to actually pay for real accounts, it puts at least a small braking effect on how quickly they can come back after a ban-wave.

The reason that sprouts have to be invited to the Novice Network is almost assuredly specifically so the free trial gil spammers don't just create an account, join Novice Network, and start shrieking their URL about "best cheap loots ULT clears" or whatever. :/

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

No one actively queues in like "I can't wait to spend a lockout teaching 7 other grossly unprepared sprouts to do fights with complicated mechanics and actual DPS checks"

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*raises hand sheepishly*

I actually enjoy the times I get to teach ex trials in that roulette. It's kinda the entire reason I ever run mentor roulette. Some of my favorite mentor roulettes have been helping a group of seven sprouts get through Ultima Weapon EX, or Garuda EX, or whatnot. No, it doesn't always go smoothly, but I would much rather get a group of seven folks eager to kick some level 50 primal's butt than yet another instance of a Guildhest or "oh, I see I have backfilled a Castrum Meridianum party, again" (as used to frequently happen with the older 8-man variants).

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

My argument is that somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.

To become a mentor, and to help newer players grow into better players overall, you should at least have a clear understanding of the combat or crafting side of the game.

Some basic ideas below, to make becoming and keeping a mentor status more strict.

Trade Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Gathering Nodes and Crafting Recipes per patch release (Yes, that means Expert crafting and Timed nodes too!)


Battle Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Extreme Trials per patch basis. (Yes, you lose your crown until you complete the latest trial on extreme)

2. Completion of at least ONE current Raid Tier on Savage as of the X.1 Patch of an expansion. (Your previous crown will last until the release of the first raid in the expansion).

3. 100 PvP Victories in Crystaline Conflict

Full Mentor:
1. All of the Above.

2. No prior warnings/actions taken against their square enix account by support.

Having much stricter requirements will easily weed out the Mentors that only have the crown as a collectable item, and clean up things like Expert Roulette for newer players, having only mentors that actually know what they are doing, playing in those activities.

Obviously these are extreme values, and not actual requirements, but so far the discussion has been good and there has been a legitimate reply with a much better mentor system that has been currently implemented.

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How about split pvp and pve requirements first? It's dumb that I even have to keep up with the MSQ just to become a pvp mentor. You're not carrying your entire kit to the wolves den. Plus I dont see a point in going for mentorship if I avoid the roulettes and raids like a plague.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

*raises hand sheepishly*

I actually enjoy the times I get to teach ex trials in that roulette. It's kinda the entire reason I ever run mentor roulette. Some of my favorite mentor roulettes have been helping a group of seven sprouts get through Ultima Weapon EX, or Garuda EX, or whatnot. No, it doesn't always go smoothly, but I would much rather get a group of seven folks eager to kick some level 50 primal's butt than yet another instance of a Guildhest or "oh, I see I have backfilled a Castrum Meridianum party, again" (as used to frequently happen with the older 8-man variants).

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You're a bigger person than I, that's for sure. Some of the earlier Extremes are usually pretty doable though, especially when the echo starts factoring in. Ramuh though...I don't think I'd have the stomach to do that one again synced. I did that back in ARR, and it was an ordeal. I spent a full lockout wiping to Thordan as well, wiping 10 seconds in every time. That was when I decided that Mentor roulette was not for me. I don't need a roulette to do some mentoring.

How about disable commendations in guildhest, since most people will spam first 2 guildhest duty as a tank or healer to farm commendation from sprouts. I know someone that did this way to get his burger king mentor crown, and that person is me

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You're a bigger person than I, that's for sure. Some of the earlier Extremes are usually pretty doable though, especially when the echo starts factoring in. Ramuh though...I don't think I'd have the stomach to do that one again synced. I did that back in ARR, and it was an ordeal. I spent a full lockout wiping to Thordan as well, wiping 10 seconds in every time. That was when I decided that Mentor roulette was not for me. I don't need a roulette to do some mentoring.

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Okay, now, in fairness... I'll confess that while I stand by my statement, and do genuinely enjoy teaching fights when given the option, any time Ramuh EX specifically shows up I do get a tiny bit of a sinking "oh god" feeling of doom and dread in the pit of my stomach. Just because that one's kind of a pain in the ass to coordinate.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Just take the burger king crown away from everyday use and the quality of mentor's will increase.

Because all these wannabe good player's who use it to be something special will stop being mentor, because they can't be special anymore.
Keep it exclusively for Mentor rouletts and nothing else.

The overall playerbase is kind enough to help when they get asked something and new player often don't even know that the clown crown is meant for people who could be asked for help.

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There is a large subset of us mentors who actually turned the crown off. I only get outed in content where I get paired with a sprout and suddenly I get the "hey its a mentor helping a sprout!" bonus as a result. (Or actually running mentor roulette, which I am not actively doing because I don't want to grind for the mount.)

I hang out in Novice Network and answer questions. I don't need a crown in the open world to do that.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Okay, now, in fairness... I'll confess that while I stand by my statement, and do genuinely enjoy teaching fights when given the option, any time Ramuh EX specifically shows up I do get a tiny bit of a sinking "oh god" feeling of doom and dread in the pit of my stomach. Just because that one's kind of a pain in the ass to coordinate.

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It's a feeling of doom and dread like no other. :p

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It's a feeling of doom and dread like no other. :p

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https://media.tenor.com/Bs--cHZ4FfsAAAAC/doom-song.gif

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Trade Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Gathering Nodes and Crafting Recipes per patch release (Yes, that means Expert crafting and Timed nodes too!)
[/B]

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Do you realize how much you're asking from people with this when Gathering ALSO includes Fishing? There are some rare fish that genuinely have a week or more between spawn time. It's a very out of touch solution to a problem that does not require that much RNG.

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Originally Posted by FangsBrightclaw

Do you realize how much you're asking from people with this when Gathering ALSO includes Fishing? There are some rare fish that genuinely have a week or more between spawn time. It's a very out of touch solution to a problem that does not require that much RNG.

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And once again, read the entire post.

"Obviously these are extreme values, and not actual requirements"

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

And once again, read the entire post.

"Obviously these are extreme values, and not actual requirements"

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Having experts be a part of it is kind of irrelevant imo since the only things that are required for relics now are obscure side tasks like relics, firm grinding and that one fountain from Island Sanctuary. You can also macro most if not all of what I listed above. Nothing in that department is going to weed out bad mentors, just show how good at Googling people are.

I get you want to make reqs harder but until crafting itself isn't as braindead in all aspects, you're not really going to accomplish that.