People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

Communicating expectations is now against TOS.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

If you have expectations of people, it helps to communicate it to them directly and not scream at the air in a place like this.

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Imagine thinking that "have basic competency" needs to be communicated. Yikes

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

You're legitimately a detriment to the party.

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Nah, just makes it last longer.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine thinking that "have basic competency" needs to be communicated. Yikes

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Imagine understanding english. :o

It's pointless to talk about it where the right people aren't made aware. Odds are this is something that could've been discussed but OP didn't want to / couldn't do it with the person in question, so here we are.

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Originally Posted by MagicPeanut

Call me crazy, but I've never seen this happen in duty finder...like ever. Is it just more common in the mentor roulette or something? Maybe I've just been lucky. :V

Even in stuff below 70 it's maybe happened a rare couple of times (In HW and older content really) and it was always a healer not using any attacks and only healing. Above 70? Never.

I agree with you of course, I'm just thinking it's not that common of an occurrence.

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Usually you can catch it in alliance raids, tbh. I've seen it mostly happen there since people think others won't notice if they're slacking

Only had it happen once in PF lol

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

If you have expectations of people, it helps to communicate it to them directly and not scream at the air in a place like this.

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Yeah, about that. By the way, when I say "no need to be petty," that was because the WHM stopped healing and only used Holy III, even for the final boss of Smileton.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If you queue using duty finder you should have zero expectations. Put your own group together so those of your ilk can stay together. I am sure the people in duty finder won't miss you.

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The fact that this has 38 likes is so sad. There are 38 people here who are supportive of fostering an acceptance of laziness and inadequacy. People can complain all they want about toxic elites in other games like WoW, but I'd argue that the people in this game who support the mindset of throwing your dead weight on someone else's back are far worse than any toxic elite you could find in WoW. A toxic elite just tells you you're trash. If you're not weak minded, you can at least take that as reason to improve and become better. The toxic casuals of this community coddle you and by doing so, they sabotage your potential growth as a player. Why improve if you can just let everyone else put in all of the effort?

This is truly the best community in gaming. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

The fact that this has 38 likes is so sad. There are 38 people here who are supportive of fostering an acceptance of laziness and inadequacy. People can complain all they want about toxic elites in other games like WoW, but I'd argue that the people in this game who support the mindset of throwing your dead weight on someone else's back are far worse than any toxic elite you could find in WoW. A toxic elite just tells you you're trash. If you're not weak minded, you can at least take that as reason to improve and become better. The toxic casuals of this community coddle you and by doing so, they sabotage your potential growth as a player. Why improve if you can just let everyone else put in all of the effort?

This is truly the best community in gaming. :rolleyes:

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I've never thought that this sort of behavior was okay. I've just accepted that it is largely out of my control, and the devs and ToS made sure of that. Life's too short to be worked up over every player that I think is playing on a subpar or lazy level. I'd never be able to relax at that rate. Heck, that's why I only do one Crystalline Conflict match a day. lol Deal with it, or don't. Those are the choices we have, and we have some tools to help with that if we so choose. As I said, I don't approve of the behavior being discussed, and it does bug me every now and then if a dungeon is going painfully slow. I just have realistic expectations, and I know I am free to leave at any time. Usually I don't leave regardless of the situation, unless it is bad enough that no one can progress. That is quite a rarity in my experience. I think the difference between me and some others is that I've tried to help people in the past as a mentor to no avail. Instead of bashing my head against a wall, I stopped trying unless someone asks for help or tips. It's less stressful that way. Maybe that makes me cynical and part of the problem, but boy is it less suffocating. If people want to improve, they will. They will actively seek it out. If they don't, then they won't, and there is no amount of friendly suggestions or tips that will convince them otherwise.

I'm just gonna drop this here.
https://i.redd.it/hw0p77arakz21.jpg

In Duty Finder, you either learn to tolerate and adapt with people's flaws and hope they will get better, or you can get crazy wondering why they don't do it better for this particular run where you are in.

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

In Duty Finder, you either learn to tolerate and adapt with people's flaws and hope they will get better, or you can get crazy wondering why they don't do it better for this particular run where you are in.

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Or kick 'em, or leave if it's a three-made :T

to be fair its pretty stupid to not expect the worst in random players.... that doesnt mean slacking off in groupcontent is alright though

Just because we expect the worst in DF doesn't mean we should accept it. People don't bother to read any of their tooltips or actively choose to press more buttons to do less damage are griefing the party. No exceptions. Since they won't put in the bare minimum for me, I won't do it for them. They get kicked or I leave.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Just because we expect the worst in DF doesn't mean we should accept it. People don't bother to read any of their tooltips or actively choose to press more buttons to do less damage are griefing the party. No exceptions. Since they won't put in the bare minimum for me, I won't do it for them. They get kicked or I leave.

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Reminds me of school projects when the group wants to slack off and you're the only one who does anything worthwhile. Unless you exert yourself and do everything yourself to bail the other stooges out of a bad grade, you'll get to the end and take a crap grade because only one part is good, the rest was crap.

...at least that's been my experience. Teachers don't care about who did which part where I come from, they grade the project and we take the grade the whole group had.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Reminds me of school projects when the group wants to slack off and you're the only one who does anything worthwhile. Unless you exert yourself and do everything yourself to bail the other stooges out of a bad grade, you'll get to the end and take a crap grade because only one part is good, the rest was crap.

...at least that's been my experience. Teachers don't care about who did which part where I come from, they grade the project and we take the grade the whole group had.

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Yup. And just like leeches like to remind everyone that "this isn't a job you know", well this isn't school either. Carrying dead weight is optional and refusing to do so has no negative consequences.

Only this community would defend players being objectively disrespectful with other people's time. Try not pulling your weight in some of the other region's server to see how that holds up in the long term... In any kind of team play, FFXIV or not, if you're going to half-ass through, you're typically being a bad teammate. This is common sense.
I have no qualms at calling people out or flat out kicking anyone, as I've done so in the past when needed, and so far I had 0 warnings in 10 years.

So far my expectation is terribly low that people have to be a deadweight intentionally AND displayed an a$$hat attitude to even attempt to vote dismiss these specimens.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Reminds me of school projects when the group wants to slack off and you're the only one who does anything worthwhile. Unless you exert yourself and do everything yourself to bail the other stooges out of a bad grade, you'll get to the end and take a crap grade because only one part is good, the rest was crap.

...at least that's been my experience. Teachers don't care about who did which part where I come from, they grade the project and we take the grade the whole group had.

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Just do everything yourself, and let the others get carried. You'll learn more, and still do well. Yea, it sucks sometimes, but with how rare it is, it's not worth getting upset about.

when i run with a party my job is to kill everything in front of me as fast as i can that means hitting them with everything i have including aoe.s my motto is die die die and at the end commend those who kept up with me.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Please stick to Squadrons, Duty Support, and Trust.

This is aimed at people who like to do single target rotations when people wall to wall for them. You're legitimately a detriment to the party.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

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thanks for your input, we all deeply care about it, and we surely asked for it!

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Just do everything yourself, and let the others get carried. You'll learn more, and still do well. Yea, it sucks sometimes, but with how rare it is, it's not worth getting upset about.

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I do do that though, that's the problem. I don't really care, even if the run goes sideways. It's only if the run's actual trash that I think anything abjectly negative. But here's the thing. The most I can do is ask them to AoE, right? If they don't, they won't, there's nothing more I can do. Most people just ignore it anyway, and it's not like I'm obligated to remain there, am I?

But when I ask people to AoE or use cooldowns if they insist on pulling that hard, and they lie to me with "I AM using them"? Yeah nah, that's fair game. You're gonna get called out.

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Originally Posted by Bukachu

thanks for your input, we all deeply care about it, and we surely asked for it!

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thanks for your snarky reply, we all deeply care about it, and we surely asked for it!

Seriously though, these kinds of responses baffle me, is your goal to just look insufferable?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Just do everything yourself, and let the others get carried. You'll learn more, and still do well. Yea, it sucks sometimes, but with how rare it is, it's not worth getting upset about.

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Lol no. I don't need to learn how to carry worthless teammates. It's more fun to go do something else.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

No, they are factually wrong. People should be expected to pull their weight

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And yet there is no consequences to someone single target killing. So expect it. How can you put expectations on a person when they won't be punished and won't care what anyone tells them in the group?

EDIT: I by no way condone the single target killing in wall to wall pulls. Just pointing out that there is no point to expecting people to play the way you want them to.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

And yet there is no consequences to someone single target killing. So expect it. How can you put expectations on a person when they won't be punished and won't care what anyone tells them in the group?

EDIT: I by no way condone the single target killing in wall to wall pulls. Just pointing out that there is no point to expecting people to play the way you want them to.

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I mean, if people would actually kick people who refuse to participate, they'd eventually have to shape up or run with trusts. For some reason people in this game have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to put up with having their time wasted by griefers. It's wild when you look at other online games where people expect at the bare minimum for someone to try in group content.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I mean, if people would actually kick people who refuse to participate, they'd eventually have to shape up or run with trusts. For some reason people in this game have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to put up with having their time wasted by griefers. It's wild when you look at other online games where people expect at the bare minimum for someone to try in group content.

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Yeah it's really weird that the community sets these limits to expect what people should put up with.

Person with no job stone? Griefing, kick, report. No one should have to carry that and have to deal with it.

Person not using AoEs/doing the bare minimum to keep the dungeon smooth and easy going? Well, just put up with it! Don't expect anything more from randos, this isn't hardcore content. They might not know. They might not read. But by god you should do your duty and put in more effort for the lazy person who won't.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Lol no. I don't need to learn how to carry worthless teammates. It's more fun to go do something else.

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So then go do something else. I thought the whole point of this thread was "waa, casuals are ruining my dungeons"? The way I see it, you can get annoyed and try to kick them, go do something else, or just ignore them. 2 and 3 seem healthy, 1 seems unproductive in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I mean, if people would actually kick people who refuse to participate, they'd eventually have to shape up or run with trusts. For some reason people in this game have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to put up with having their time wasted by griefers. It's wild when you look at other online games where people expect at the bare minimum for someone to try in group content.

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I agree with you when I first started long ago I didn't know what rotations were and hated to read so why would I read a tool tip lol. One dungeon changed all that because the tank stopped the fight look at me and said, "I'm sorry you need to learn your rotation your dps is to weak." (Kicked) I was devastated, angry, embarrassed, and demoralized. What did I do? I googled archer rotation, went to a dummy practiced, read the tool tips, and after a week of practicing went back to that same dungeon and at the end received all three commendations. A kick in the pants is what I needed I'm good now.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I mean, if people would actually kick people who refuse to participate, they'd eventually have to shape up or run with trusts. For some reason people in this game have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to put up with having their time wasted by griefers. It's wild when you look at other online games where people expect at the bare minimum for someone to try in group content.

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Kicking someone for single targeting mobs is liable to be treated as abuse of the kick function by SE. It's happened to people before.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Kicking someone for single targeting mobs is liable to be treated as abuse of the kick function by SE. It's happened to people before.

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Yes, but in my case it saved me from quitting the game. It helped me. I could have recorded the conversation and had him suspended a day or two but I didn't he was right I sucked and I did something about it.

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Originally Posted by sagacious

I agree with you when I first started long ago I didn't know what rotations were and hated to read so why would I read a tool tip lol. One dungeon changed all that because the tank stopped the fight look at me and said, "I'm sorry you need to learn your rotation your dps is to weak." (Kicked) I was devastated, angry, embarrassed, and demoralized. What did I do? I googled archer rotation, went to a dummy practiced, read the tool tips, and after a week of practicing went back to that same dungeon and at the end received all three commendations. A kick in the pants is what I needed I'm good now.

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This seems like Stockholm syndrome, but it’s also quintessentially FFXIV in the current year. Yoshida pretends that we’re not allowed to do this, but as we can all see in this thread, many people deeply love and appreciate online toxicity. His vision doesn’t matter, yours does. And that’s fine! You can chase everyone else out. Let’s make this into WoW or EQ or the rest.

A problem, though: I (and others) subscribed to Final Fantasy XIV because of Yoshida’s vision. We bought into a lie, because that vision is dead if no one cares about it. FFXIV is not a “friendly community”, it’s not “less toxic than WoW”, and the people do not “welcome new players with open arms”. And only difference between FFXIV and lesser MMOs is that we have a sock puppet (Yoshida) that pretends that things are okay when they really aren’t. It’s good for revenue, but it’s also a complete lie. More scrupulous consumers should avoid giving money to hucksters and liars, but you all clearly enjoy it, so the circus of lies and deceit will continue much to your amusement.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

THANKFULLY, like you said, gameplay like this is NOT the norm and is pretty sparse.

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Then why you are complaining about it? First thing I noticed was that our characters are on the same DC and like Reiner, this is something I run into VERY rarely. And I run roulettes every day like Reiner does, both as healer and dps. For one, I'm not noticing the exact skills someone is using because I'm busy handling my own skills and doing mechanics. So I often wonder exactly how the person complaining is performing that they can watch someone else so closely they know every skill they're using. And I'm not noticing runs taking really any longer than they normally do. I notice the opposite really, when I get that incredibly optimized group where everything melts. So if it's rare, then why this PSA? Make a post in something like Tales from the Duty Finder for the random person who ticked you off in X group that day and move on.

Something I also accept by letting the game randomly match me with people of all experience and ability levels is that sometimes I may need to be the rockstar of the party. Especially on healer. Just like teams in real life, sometimes we have to shore up the weaknesses in others as they shore up the weaknesses in us. Sometimes we have to step up. And the developers intend for this to happen. They want the strong to help the weak. Yeah, one person might end up doing more but again, it's rare that this is needed. So why not take the W when it happens and be the MVP? If it's absolutely at an unacceptable level then that's the time to bail. We've all had a group that just wasn't going to work. But if someone is going into this sort of team situation with an unbending idea of playstyle or the inability to adjust to be what their party needs, then they're going to have a bad time in Duty Finder. And it has nothing to do with the system being inundated with "bads". It's just the nature of variability in the system and the malleability that successful groups sometimes need to succeed.

Edit: It was Dodo who did the thread so ignore the PSA mention. But the point stands. Why is it worth getting so upset about something that occurs every few months if that? I don't see people defending the behavior in this thread as you've accused some of doing so much as not thinking it's nearly as big of a deal or worth their energy to get worked up about.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

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A problem not being common is still a problem when it occurs. It's a problem that shouldn't exist at all but because there's always going to be crappy people in the world, it does. Why is it so hard to understand that people want to improve things? Letting griefers get away with griefing is NOT going to help anyone. Being the hard carry of a group isn't fun when you realize it's happening because someone just isn't trying. You know where being the hard carry IS usually fun? Content where everyone is trying and you outperform the rest of the group. Once again I ask, why are we defending crappy people who don't respect our time? The zealous defense of these people is MIND BOGGLING, you'd think it'd be the opposite considering they are causing issues for other people! And you go and mention "teams in real life", yeah, teams where everyone is expected to at least try. What we're talking about in this thread is not people who are trying but don't perform well, we're talking about people who are seeking a free carry off of the efforts of others.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So then go do something else. I thought the whole point of this thread was "waa, casuals are ruining my dungeons"? The way I see it, you can get annoyed and try to kick them, go do something else, or just ignore them. 2 and 3 seem healthy, 1 seems unproductive in the long run.

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Would you stop insulting casuals? Casuals are not the target of this thread, casuals are not griefers/leechers. I don't know how many times it needs to be explained that this thread is targeting people who expect free carries in multiplayer content without having to put the work in themselves, or people who become belligerent and act like there was some great personal attack on them when someone politely asks them to use their abilities appropriately. If you and people like you would stop defending those that actively do not care about your time and effort, the already uncommon cases of this would all but cease to exist.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Kicking someone for single targeting mobs is liable to be treated as abuse of the kick function by SE. It's happened to people before.

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You know what's also against the ToS? Lethargic gameplay where someone doesn't actively participate, and when politely asked to doesn't either leave or acquiesce. Kicking someone for griefing is not going to get you in trouble with Square.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Kicking someone for single targeting mobs is liable to be treated as abuse of the kick function by SE. It's happened to people before.

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I dunno about that. SE does have "lethargic behaviour" in their prohibited activities list.

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Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

A problem not being common is still a problem when it occurs. It's a problem that shouldn't exist at all but because there's always going to be crappy people in the world, it does. Why is it so hard to understand that people want to improve things? Letting griefers get away with griefing is NOT going to help anyone. Being the hard carry of a group isn't fun when you realize it's happening because someone just isn't trying. You know where being the hard carry IS usually fun? Content where everyone is trying and you outperform the rest of the group. Once again I ask, why are we defending crappy people who don't respect our time? The zealous defense of these people is MIND BOGGLING, you'd think it'd be the opposite considering they are causing issues for other people! And you go and mention "teams in real life", yeah, teams where everyone is expected to at least try. What we're talking about in this thread is not people who are trying but don't perform well, we're talking about people who are seeking a free carry off of the efforts of others.

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So you have an absolute 100% way to tell when someone is intentionally griefing versus when they're just tired, off their game, momentarily distracted, just not good at certain things, or a number of other things that may be encountered in others in DF? Because you must have amazing psychic powers if so. Or you're parsing. In a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So you have an absolute 100% way to tell when someone is intentionally griefing versus when they're just tired, off their game, momentarily distracted, just not good at certain things, or a number of other things that may be encountered in others in DF? Because you must have amazing psychic powers if so. Or you're parsing. In a dungeon.

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If someone is so tired they can't hit their AoE rotation (456) instead of single target rotation (123+whatever else it has), they need to go to bed. The AoE rotations in this game are not even remotely demanding. If someone's distracted for a moment, sure whatever things happen. If they're distracted for the entire duty? They need to go deal with whatever it is instead of putting that on three to seven other players. If they're just not good at the game? Cool, people can improve with helpful tips and, again, is not the focus of this thread. Your self-righteous defense of griefers is wildly misplaced.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So you have an absolute 100% way to tell when someone is intentionally griefing versus when they're just tired, off their game, momentarily distracted, just not good at certain things, or a number of other things that may be encountered in others in DF? Because you must have amazing psychic powers if so. Or you're parsing. In a dungeon.

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I've been tired, off my game and distracted (sometimes all at once), but I don't suddenly do less than the bare minimum because of it. It's extremely easy to tell if someone is not using AoE's in a dungeon if you have player effects on, they're a Caster, or you're a tank/healer and notice things are taking way too long to die and you're running out/out of resources (when I tank, first w2w I do I use Vengeance and Arm's Length. Next pull I use Rampart and Reprisal. Yes, I use other things like Bloodwhetting, Thrill and Equilibrium. Holmgang too. If I have to use everything on the first pull, then there's a problem).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I've been tired, off my game and distracted (sometimes all at once), but I don't suddenly do less than the bare minimum because of it. It's extremely easy to tell if someone is not using AoE's in a dungeon if you have player effects on, they're a Caster, or you're a tank/healer and notice things are taking way too long to die and you're running out/out of resources (when I tank, first w2w I do I use Vengeance and Arm's Length. Next pull I use Rampart and Reprisal. Yes, I use other things like Bloodwhetting, Thrill and Equilibrium. Holmgang too. If I have to use everything on the first pull, then there's a problem).

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Also just to add on your point; how is that fair to the healer as an example?
If the Tank uses no CD's the Healer has to work 5 times as hard.. What if he is tired?
Nobody excuses a healer that had a long day, only uses cure and wipes the party on every boss, well I guess some ppl on this forum would...

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Also just to add on your point; how is that fair to the healer as an example?
If the Tank uses no CD's the Healer has to work 5 times as hard.. What if he is tired?
Nobody excuses a healer that had a long day, only uses cure and wipes the party on every boss, well I guess some ppl on this forum would...

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It's not just this forum, it's in game too. People will strangely defend griefers, going above and beyond to enable them, when you'd think they'd be up in arms because how dare someone have the nerve to make three or seven other people, or sometimes even 23 other people, deal with their sorry butts.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This seems like Stockholm syndrome, but it’s also quintessentially FFXIV in the current year. Yoshida pretends that we’re not allowed to do this, but as we can all see in this thread, many people deeply love and appreciate online toxicity. His vision doesn’t matter, yours does. And that’s fine! You can chase everyone else out. Let’s make this into WoW or EQ or the rest.

A problem, though: I (and others) subscribed to Final Fantasy XIV because of Yoshida’s vision. We bought into a lie, because that vision is dead if no one cares about it. FFXIV is not a “friendly community”, it’s not “less toxic than WoW”, and the people do not “welcome new players with open arms”. And only difference between FFXIV and lesser MMOs is that we have a sock puppet (Yoshida) that pretends that things are okay when they really aren’t. It’s good for revenue, but it’s also a complete lie. More scrupulous consumers should avoid giving money to hucksters and liars, but you all clearly enjoy it, so the circus of lies and deceit will continue much to your amusement.

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Grandma, did you forget to take your meds this week?